Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Technical Support => Topic started by: KrazyIvn on March 04, 2007, 11:47:51 PM
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I just got a new Saitek X52 Pro
Great stick except ... it keeps banking to the left 99% of the time.
All of the following happens EVEN in the P38 (my favorite bird). It happens in other planes but worse in the P38 then single engine planes oddly enough.
I know when its gona happen cause on takeoff roll I start yawing to the left.
I have stick and my rudders (saitek also) calibrated both in pc and game mode...and opened my Dead zones WAY up...but it keeps banking left.
If i trim for it with rudder the plane stops banking but flies crooked.
i can kinda trim for it with ailerons but never just right, and when i do the trim guage shows to the right.
It's worse with combat trim off.
Tempest banks keeps right though, and it keeps on going right ,though slower than the other planes go left. Guess the P factors overcoming the left turning problem some, but again even the tempest wont fly straight just keeps goin right.
I dont have any problems on MS Flight Sim with the stick only AH.
I'm hoping some1 came across this problem and its a easy fix and not the stick.
thanks for any help.
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What youre running into is not a Joystick calibration problem, but rather a physics - engine torque
As per Newtons third, the prop tries to rotate the plane. That and additional propwash effects will cause most planes to veer to the left on takeoff. The Tempest, Yak, Spit16 (prop rotates opposite direction, so they veer to the right) and the P38 (props are counter rotating, the effects are nullified) being the only exceptions. The more "power" an engine has, the more pronounced the effects are.
What you need to do to correct them on takeoff is: Pull back slightly on your stick (about 1/2), that locks the tailwheel. Then throttle up slowly - as you gain speed the airflow will stabilise the plane and torque isnt as likely to fishtail you into a crash. If you slam the throttle to full, you get "full torque" at 0 speed....
As you gain speed, use the Rudder (twisty motion!) to keep the plane going straight - not rudder trim (trim isnt strong enough to counter torque at takeoff).
Heres a few links that might help you understand better:
Past threads on the subject:
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=196926
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=184796
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=175326
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164656
From the Trainer Corps Homepage:
How to fly:
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=193009
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/flightcontrols/flightcontrols.htm
Takeoff and landing:
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/takeofffield/takeofffield.htm
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/landingfield/landingfield.htm
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/takeoffcarrier/takeoffcarrier.htm
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/landingcarrier/landingcarrier.htm
Also a very important thing to do is setting your views! After all you cannot shoot someone you dont see.
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/views/views.htm
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/overthenose/overthenose.htm
Generally, lots of reading, practicing and most importantly HAVING FUN doing it will help you improve fast.
http://trainers.hitechcreations.com (The official homepage of the Aces High II Trainer Corps - a collection of our help files)
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/index.php (get an account there, very good Help and Training as well as Tech Support section).
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/
If you still have trouble, let me know. We can meet Online in the TA and get you sorted out.
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As stated above, this happens in the P38 and 262 in takeoff and cruise.
I did some more trobleshooting and the problem seems to be in the aileron trim:
>>>In auto pilot, it flys straight and the trim neddle is centered
>>>auto pilot off and combat trim on or off we start banking left, trim needle shows left of center. its more exagerated with combat trim off.
>>>I can manualy move the trim back to center and all's good ... till I turn ON or OFF combat trim, then were out of trim again and we bank. I look at the aileron trim and it moved out of center again.
Engaging "trim set" key when its flying staight doesnt seem to help, whenever i engage or disengage combat trim we loose center trim indication and were banking again
I'd like to note, that this is happening about 95% of the time. 5% it works like its supose to.
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Originally posted by Schatzi
What youre running into is not a Joystick calibration problem, but rather a physics - engine torque
Standard answer, but I wouldn`t be too sure that it holds true in this case. He explicitely mentioned that it happens in P38 too - which has contra-rotating props and does not suffer from torque like other planes.
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It does sound very much as though the problem is with rudder (yaw) not ailerons.
You seem to be applying roll trim when in fact I think you may have more success with rudder trim. You have already noted that the trims are centre when in auto pilot. Remember Rudder also causes a roll effect.
Whilst you say you have calibrated properly I hope you played carefull attention to the rudder calibration. It is also possible that the pedals are being nudged with left rudder at times. You will not be the first to find you are accidentally pressing one rudder pedal without realising it. In particular with the P38, re-check calibration, then do a manual takeoff with your feet off the pedals and no trim input. check where the trim is before take off and where it is when you roll.
Finally if you are playing in 8 player there is also a chance that the host has set a cross wind! - In this case you will need rudder correction as soon as you start to roll what ever the aircraft!
If all else fails, how about filming it and sending it in. It may reveal something you have not spotted.
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My bad. I completely missed the part of it happening in the P38 as well.
My apologies Krazy!
Troubleshooting:
Does this happen every time you log on?
Is it remedied if you calibrate each time you start AH?
If you log on and go to the "map controller" screen and select the stick, do the numbers in brackets (especially the yaw axis) change much (a slight oszillation is normal)? Does that change after calibration?
Did you ever change any stick scaling? (in the advanced tab) If no, you might want to try scaling and adding some deadband to your roll and yaw axis. Let me know if you havent messed with the ADVANCED tab/scaling yet, ill post some info on that then.
Krazy, do you have an online account yet? if yes, Id meet you online to troubleshoot.
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Does this happen every time you log on? >>> almost
Is it remedied if you calibrate each time you start AH? >>> No
If you log on and go to the "map controller" screen and select the stick, do the numbers in brackets (especially the yaw axis) change much (a slight oszillation is normal)? >>> No
Does that change after calibration?>>>No
Did you ever change any stick scaling? (in the advanced tab) >>> Yes
If no, you might want to try scaling and adding some deadband to your roll and yaw axis. >>> I did
Let me know if you havent messed with the ADVANCED tab/scaling yet, ill post some info on that then >>> I messed with it some, didnt notice a change but i didnt know what I was doing
I sent you a PM so we can hook up Schatzi, thanks.
I dont think its the rudder because the planes skidding when i position the rudders to prevent the turn...while aileron trim fixes it
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The X52 is a twist-stick, you might need a bit of deadband on the rudder.
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I had a similar problem as well. Mine was fixed when i realized the x52 throttle and stick connecting wire doesnt really lock in like my x45 did. it had come a bit loose, and when i pressed it back in, viola! fixed.
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Originally posted by KrazyIvn
I dont think its the rudder because the planes skidding when i position the rudders to prevent the turn...while aileron trim fixes it
Is the ball of the turn and slip indicactor in the middle when you have manually trimmed it with aileron and is this how you have identified the skid ?
Just for clarification I understand you have the Saitek X52 Pro stick and throttle combination and Saitek rudder Pedals, so you are not using the twisty grip, is that right ?
Jnuk seems to have an interesting point that a connection in your set up may be at fault. Can you post again if the problem is now fixed and let us know what it was!
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Originally posted by KrazyIvn
As stated above, this happens in the P38 and 262 in takeoff and cruise.
I did some more trobleshooting and the problem seems to be in the aileron trim:
>>>In auto pilot, it flys straight and the trim neddle is centered
>>>auto pilot off and combat trim on or off we start banking left, trim needle shows left of center. its more exagerated with combat trim off.
>>>I can manualy move the trim back to center and all's good ... till I turn ON or OFF combat trim, then were out of trim again and we bank. I look at the aileron trim and it moved out of center again.
Engaging "trim set" key when its flying staight doesnt seem to help, whenever i engage or disengage combat trim we loose center trim indication and were banking again
I'd like to note, that this is happening about 95% of the time. 5% it works like its supose to.
Do you have assigned an axis to aileron trim ?
If so check if this axis is centered before flight.
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Krazy,
I answered your PM and havent heard back from you yet. Is the issue solved?
Do you have your trim assigned to any rotaries/sliders?
If yes, do you move/center them when calibrating as well?
Here are some tips on scaling:
Joystick settings..... I know people ask again and again, what the good sticks have as settings and use them for themselves. While this gives you an idea what to do, settings depend so much on your stick brand, how worn out it is, your personal preferences.... Ill try to explain the basics of the settings to you, maybe giving you the possibility to find your own, personal "favorite stick settings".
First of all, youll have to set the settings sliders, as well as deadband and damping for each axis seperatly. Select the axis you want to work on and then check the ADVANCED box. Make sure the advanced tab shows the axis you are adjusting in the upper left corner.
What you also should know about scaling: It will NOT affect your overall range of motion… it will only add time delay to the movements, smoothen them out thus. You can watch the lines in the blue box move – raw (unscaled) and scaled… 45% stick deflection will still be 45% input – but the time it takes to get there is different.
Deadband: This is the easiest of all. As little as possible - as much as neccessary. Deadband depicts the “dead area” around the center position of the stick, where movement is not recognised as input yet. If you have your Joystick spiking, if you notice autopilot being thrown off without you moving the stick, youll need to raise it.
Also, if you use a Twisty Rudder, you might want to add some dead band on that axis to avoid unintentional input in the heat of a fight.
Damping: This adds an overall 'sluggishness' to your JS inputs, like a small temporal delay added to the reaction to stick input. Depending, if you have a rather light hand on your stick youll probably want this to be as low as possible (I got mine all at the way down, about ½ slider width from the bottom). If you feel your input is too touchy overall, raise this slider.
Also, if you get a “don’t move your controls so rapidly” a lot: Try recalibrating your stick – if this doesn’t help, adding some damping sometimes does.
Now to the Individual Sliders to the right. Those "scale" your stick input. Meaning, the time delay added to the input is only on part of the motion range (in 10% of the motion range for each, since you have ten sliders). The higher the sliders are, the more immediate is the input. This makes for a very fine control, but also a skitterish one and maybe (some planes more, some less) an unstable nose (“nose bounce”). All the way down makes for a very smooth, but also sluggish response.
I dont know your preferences. If you prefer to have a very fine control that needs a light hand and might be a little touchy, i recommend you start out with all sliders maxed out at the top. Then adjust from there, lowering the first few in a staircase way to soften any heavy nose bounce you might encounter. For Elevator, I have the first four sliders stair-cased, starting about half an inch from top. For rudder I have the first and the last 3 slightly lowered (also staircase), since I was using a rocker rudder with a small range of motion – also added 1/2 inch of damping on that. Roll axis is all maxed out, since it doesn’t come into play with nose bounce. (ill attach screenies from my old stick setup)
If you dont like your controls that touchy (or if your joystick doesnt "allow" this minute input - ie you just keep stalling all over the place) I recommend you start out from a staircase (first slider 1/3 – 1/2 down).
Like AKAK shows in his stick settings http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/stickscale.zip (the zip also contains great info on gunnery and energy)
I hope this rather long winded explanations makes sense to you and helps you finding your own settings. Maybe you also want to check out the explanation for stick settings at netaces, heres the link: http://www.netaces.org//joystick.pdf
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I'm getting a Saitek X52 here in about 5 days or so, I'll let you know if I have the same issues, and if Jnuk's solution fixed mine (If I get this issue).
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Thanks for the input guys
I'll let you know what I find.
By the way...I got a X52 "PRO "with seperate Saitek rudder pedals, everyones mentioned the regular X52 so far refering to this problem.
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You have PM. :)
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Yes, I heard you had "PRO". I'm just mentioning that when I get my X52 I'll see if I have the same problem. I probably won't since I use the stick to control rudders, ailerons, and elevators. Not have seperate pedals. Probably what you could do is go into the "Map Controllers" feature and un-map the "Rudder Control" from your Saitek X52 Pro, not the pedals. That way there aren't two devices attempting to rotate one thing on the plane.
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Denholm, im not sure its possible to map the same function to TWO separate axis in AH. Actually, ill have to try that tomorrow..... *thinking*
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It's not possible now, yet it used to be. Back in the older AH (When we had the old image at startup) you could have two devices mapped onto the same feature. Such as firing cannons, you could have a button on your joystick, and have a button on your keyboard mapped to the same feature. Not sure if it was possible to have two joysticks to be mapped onto one feature, yet it sure seemed that way. Yet nowadays I can't even map a button on my joystick to a single feature and have a button on my keyboard do the same thing.
Anyways, just a precaution.
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Actually, this "double mapping" to keyboard/Joystick is still true for most functions... as fire, flaps gear etc.
The only thing I know DOESNT work as keyboard input once you mapped it on stick (or once sticks offers the option) is analog inputs like throttle. (Im actually not 100% positive on Rudder input - I see some testing in my future :))
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OK,
So I played some AH 2day and heres what I found...
First, I tried all the recomendations, didn't work.
The banking problem wasn't so bad 2day, about 50%...no clue why less today than before
I know the instant its happening because im turning left on takeoff (P38)
Trim and ball starts off the same ALL the time (centered) but the rudder ball is becomes sllightly right of center (on the takeoff roll)when I have the problem.
If I start over and put it on AUTO takeoff...the aileron banks max right and trim is max right respectivly, ball stays centered ...it trims out on climb out and I can fly normaly but with the trim offset right.
I'll get killed , statrt over and its all good again.
I can't find a pattern...Im baffled
Schatzi gona teach me how 2 dogfight tommorrow morning while we wait (not long I bet) for this to happen and we'll work on it
Denholm, I wasn't reffering to you specifly about the "pro", I just noticed it was a trend in my post...I'll try your advice with the disconnecting of the seperate rudders and just use the twisty stick
Thanks,
KrazyIvn
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Oh, I suggested un-mapping "Rudder" from your Saitek X52, the pedals are better I hear. So I was mentioning, perhaps the stick's rudder control was mapped and interfering with your pedals.
EDIT: Schatzi, I can't map cannon control to be "b" on my keyboard and button #2 (It's #2, but ah2 thinks it's #1) on my joystick. It's already mapped to button #2, yet I wanted it to be mapped to "b" as well, incase of some problems.
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So Ren and I are scratching our heads trying to figure out whats going on with me turning left
Then he tucks in formation behind me in the Practice arena .
All of a sudden the Clouds open up and the light hits my plane...
Ren says "hey, try loosing your drop tank"
Problem solved
I didn't even realize I was carrying the one tank on my left wing...Thats what I get for not doing a pre flight.
Thanks for your input all...See ya'll out there
KrazyIvn :aok
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:huh
:confused:
:eek:
:rofl
Sometimes too much thinking hurts :). Glad you could figure it out... see you up Krazy!
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Single drop tanks won't turn off your auto pilot. It will trim out with them onboard. I've done it millions of times.
Try it without the DT and see if it still happens.
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Never had a problem with the auto pilot
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D'oh! Sorry, got my threads mixed up!! Thought this was the one where auto-takeoff wasn't working. Sorry.
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Well, as I promised, I'm checking in with you guys after I got my Saitek X52 (Not PRO). I got it last night, took a moment to get it all mapped, but no issues of any sort.:aok
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I find it ironic that a player named Crazy Ivan is experiencing sudden and unexpected turns to the left. :)
Crazy Ivan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crazy_Ivan)
Hope you get it worked out, Ivan.
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good catch...I'm surprised i didnt see the pun...Thats actually part of the reason i have my Tag...long story:D