Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Karnak on March 05, 2007, 10:29:30 AM
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It seems to me that there are a number of extremely potent fighters in AH that are only marginally harder to use than the most over used types, but the people who use them get backslaps rather than rasberries for their performances. These are the aircraft that I think are in that special category of being very powerful and easy to use and yet are neglected.
Bf109F-4:
10 minutes of WEP and extremely sweet handling make this a wonderful brawling fighter with light firepower being the biggest drawback.
F4U-1/-1A/-1D:
Fast, decent climb, decent range, average firepower with great ballistics and oh, the flaps. The F4U is simply one of the best fighters in AH.
F6F-5:
Docile handling, average firepower with great ballistics, good ordnance hauling and tough as a brick.
Ki-84-Ia:
Great acceleration, reasonably fast at AH combat altitudes, decent firepower, fast roll rate, insane WEP cycle and yet more uber-flaps.
La-5FN:
It is an La-7 that is slightly slower, only has two cannon and none of the stigma.
P-38L:
The true jack-of-all-trades in AH. There is nothing this fighter isn't at least good at, if not great at. Oh, uber-flaps for the third time.
P-51B:
Like the La-5FN, this is much like its derided sister, yet carries no stigma. The P-51B is fast and has the great high speed handling of the P-51, though slightly light on firepower.
Yak-9U:
Like the Bf109F-4, a great brawler that only lacks for firepower and fuel range. No WEP to worry about.
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Along the same lines of very good planes with high ENY and none of the "dweebishness" are a surprising amount of the Luftwaffe kit.
The Bf.109G2 is a very good knife fighter with an ENY of 30; the K4 is not an "easy" plane to use but its insane engine and medium to high alt performance along with its MK.108 makes it special and has an ENY of 20.
The D9 has an ENY of 15 and for all its roll rate, speed, and firepower, this is odd. The Doras older brothers are all squirly little ships with firepower and rollrate to make them fun furballers.
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Great list Karnak! :D I fly most of those just because they are not dweeby to a sense, except the La5, never really touched it. The Yak-9U is a great plane and if you hit about 8k which is prime performance for that baby... it is nice! Killing in it is tricky and you have to be patient.
Two others you forgot:
C205 : Great climb, very nice ammo load-out, decent WEP, and handles very nicely and can take some punishment.
Yak-9T : Decent turning, climb pretty good, and that 37mm in the nose is nice.... all you have to do is hit your mark. One or two round breaks anything.
Where's your Mossie on that list? :D That should be there as well...:aok
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With the 38L you might as well put all the 38s. The 38s are pretty underrated in the fact that people see it as an easy kill.
That 38G "Stevie Wonder Special" doesnt deserve any recognition. :D :lol
:D
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C.205?
It is like a spit IX but uglier (so ugly in fact that the paint job looks like the last pilot puked over it in horror) and harder to see out of.
Originally posted by Sketch
Where's your Mossie on that list? :D That should be there as well...:aok
Mossie is crippled. Has the potential to be awesome but is bugged :(
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Only a personal opinion, but I'd replace the Bf109F-4 with the G-14.
For me, the Friederich is in the class of planes such as the A6M, Hurri2C or Spit5 - lethal fighters in trained epxert hands but overall performance too lacking to ensure a certain amount of "survival factor". However the G-14 seems to be an excellent compromise between the earlier 109s and the ultimate K-4, and thankfully a little more powerful than the G-2 in speed, climb, and firepower. Also the given choice between a 20mm cannon and a 30mm cannon is also a big plus.
I know some 109 pilots say the G-14 handle terribly, but frankly I really don't see what's so horrible. I'm not a good pilot but I've also been flying the 109s for a long time too, and to me all the Gustavs basically handle very similarly.. the G-2 may feel a bit lighter in handling, but honestly there's nothing I can't do in a G-14 which I can in a G-2. (but then again, maybe it's because suck too much in 109s to tell the difference)
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Ki 61. This clowncar has bags of tricks that you can't guess.
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Originally posted by Karnak
P-38L:
The true jack-of-all-trades in AH. There is nothing this fighter isn't at least good at, if not great at. Oh, uber-flaps for the third time.
They're called Fowler flaps.
I'd like to add to the list the Curtiss P-40, the Republic P-47, and the Focke-Wulf FW-190. Hmm! That appears to put all of the ships in the game into either this list of the other.
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I fly the Ki-84 and am still pretty dweebish...in a straight up fight with equal energy I usually lose to any competent pilot. That said, I have had great success with the "Frank" if I bring an energy advantage to the fight.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
They're called Fowler flaps.
I'd like to add to the list the Curtiss P-40, the Republic P-47, and the Focke-Wulf FW-190. Hmm! That appears to put all of the ships in the game into either this list of the other.
The P.40 being powerful?
*lol*
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You missed the sarcasm. The point is that half of his list are ships that are hardly "very powerful." They're difficult fighters to fight in, for the most part, or else slow.
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I fly what I like and laugh when people call me a dweeb. Normally it occurs because I killed them.
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Originally posted by SuperDud
I fly what I like and laugh when people call me a dweeb. Normally it occurs because I killed them.
:rofl
Too true!
:confused: Ahem . . . not that I would know. I've never killed anybody.:cry
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I'll add the Me-110 but only because I've seen some people, back when I flew regularly, OWN in this ride.
When I first started with AH back in Nov. '02 myself and Ro flew a couple of P-40's against someone in a 110 in the CT (Sicily map IIRC) and this guy just schooled us to no end. I wish I could remember who it was but it was one of the most frustrating things I ever expericenced in Aces High.
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Because getting your socks off only works because of others watching.
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Originally posted by 1K3
Ki 61. This clowncar has bags of tricks that you can't guess.
:cool: Yep. Just keep it a secret.
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I think a lot of you are missing the point. I may have been off on the Bf109F-4, but all the fighters I listed are easy to use, almost as easy as things like the Spit XVI and N1K2-J. I am no better than average now, yet can easily get kills in any of the fighters I mentioned.
When you talk about Fw190s, P-47s, P-40s and Ki-61s you are far off that path and into the birds that have a lot of potential if the pilot has the skill to use it, but are death traps for the new pilot.
Benny Moore,
Trust me, I am very well aware of what kind of flaps the P-38 has. The Ki-84 has the same kind. I was merely simplifying it into the effect it has in game as many readers won't know what the heck Fowler Flaps are. Also the F4U doesn't have Fowler Flaps, yet also has uber-flaps in AH.
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I would totally agree with 109F-4. I think it is the best 109 by quite a margin. Second being the 109G-2 if you are a close in fighting type of person.
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Hi,
i dont think this planes comes close to the Spit16, La7 and F4U-4 and specialy newbes will have bad problems in this planes vs planes like the HurriIIc, SpitV, FM-2 and A6M5, but you be right that this planes are still far more easy to fly than a FW190A8, Spit14, P47 or a 109G6.
In a 109F4 vs a Spit14 i feel like in a HurriII vs a FW190A8, the far more modern planes need much time to get into a advanced position and very fast they have the more nimble plane on the tail again.
Most of this planes need a pretty good hand for aiming and shooting, thats nothing for a newbe, specialy in AH, where the planes tend to wobble with the smalest stickinput.
Greetings,
Knegel
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Originally posted by an englishman without any taste for beauty
C.205?
It is like a spit IX but uglier (so ugly in fact that the paint job looks like the last pilot puked over it in horror) and harder to see out of.
:furious
Karnak, I don't think you can say Ki84 flaps are so uber, because they have a big drawback when compared with the other planes: they extract only at very low speed, under 168 mph for the first notch! :P
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
I'll add the Me-110 but only because I've seen some people, back when I flew regularly, OWN in this ride.
The 110 is a gun package with a plane wrapped around it. It offers nothing special in terms of performance or handeling. The P38 owns it in every aspect except for firepower. Even our problematic mossie will give it a proper challange. You could get the same results by installing the 110 guns on a C47.
In AH guns rule, gunnery is easy, damage model favours heavy cannons and you can always feed of the scraps of others. This is why Hurri 2C is so successful inspite of being a terrible performer and same goes for the 110. If you want example of the opposite case, just look at the P51B.
Good guns will bring you more kills than performance. Gunnery is more important than ACM. These are the rules of the areana.
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Gunnery is more important than ACM.
I'd say ACM is nothing without gunnery. In fact, many times I've been killed because it took me too much time to bring down my target and I put myself in a bad position, allowing other enemies to get me. :p But don't let people think that the only think you have to do to have kills in MAs is to HO you, please, ACM is a more important thing to learn than HOing...
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Originally posted by Karnak
I think a lot of you are missing the point. I may have been off on the Bf109F-4, but all the fighters I listed are easy to use, almost as easy as things like the Spit XVI and N1K2-J. I am no better than average now, yet can easily get kills in any of the fighters I mentioned.
When you talk about Fw190s, P-47s, P-40s and Ki-61s you are far off that path and into the birds that have a lot of potential if the pilot has the skill to use it, but are death traps for the new pilot.
I think no one of planes you listed in first post are easy to use. They are all powerfull, but you need to know how to use their power.
Let say about F4U-1D, because i can fly it (more or less). It one of the best all-around fighter, i second you in this. But for noobs it heavy, slow accelerating, poor maneuvering plane with weak guns. It shines if you can use his flaps and throttle in right time and able to concentrate your fire. It come with experience which noobs dont have yet.
I wasnt noob when i choose Corsair, but i cursed anything i can before i become able to fly it properly.
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While gunnery is a needy part in AH, ACM is more important. Being able to out maneuver spits in a P38 means better ACM. How will a p38 or p47 win against a la7 or spit 16 that will run them down? By having better ACM and knowing what your plane can do. Yea good gunnery helps but when you have large amount of rounds such as a p47 or p38 you can have bad aim.
Bozon...the P38 doesnt lack in firepower. You can easily get 10 kills or more with the 20mm and the 4x50s. Once that 20mm is out you still have about 1200-1400 rounds of the 50s left. If you have decent aim you can easily get another 4 kills and possibly if lucky to get a lot zekes up against can get another 8-10.
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Originally posted by bozon
Gunnery is more important than ACM.
Completely disagree. If you can't bring your guns to bear, you can't shoot the enemy. A more skilled pilot will never allow you to bring your guns to bear. Thus, you will lose, even if you have the gunnery skills to neuter a gnat at 700 yards.
My regards,
Widewing
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Bf109F-4:
10 minutes of WEP and extremely sweet handling make this a wonderful brawling fighter with light firepower being the biggest drawback.
Awesome perk earner, not hard to fly, can be wicked in a furball. Secret to it is learning to hit with the german cannons. IE not as easy or as powerfull as the RAF Hispano's.
F4U-1/-1A/-1D:
Fast, decent climb, decent range, average firepower with great ballistics and oh, the flaps. The F4U is simply one of the best fighters in AH.
Yes, the hawg is the king of the heap for now. Fly it like this while you can because I don't expect it to fly like this forever.
F6F-5:
Docile handling, average firepower with great ballistics, good ordnance hauling and tough as a brick.
Favorite Carrier ops plane. Has same loadout as the F4u, yet takeoffs & landings MUCH easier. Can move mud, vulch, and RTB with kills with just a little practise.
Ki-84-Ia:
Great acceleration, reasonably fast at AH combat altitudes, decent firepower, fast roll rate, insane WEP cycle and yet more uber-flaps.
Yes, but since the last FM change the 84 is handicaped.
Its flyable, and in the right hands its deadly. Just not sure it belongs in this list.
La-5FN:
It is an La-7 that is slightly slower, only has two cannon and none of the stigma.
My all time favorite fighter. It does everything but move mud.
P-38L:
The true jack-of-all-trades in AH. There is nothing this fighter isn't at least good at, if not great at. Oh, uber-flaps for the third time.
P-51B:
Like the La-5FN, this is much like its derided sister, yet carries no stigma. The P-51B is fast and has the great high speed handling of the P-51, though slightly light on firepower.
Yak-9U:
Like the Bf109F-4, a great brawler that only lacks for firepower and fuel range. No WEP to worry about. [/B][/QUOTE]
Most underflown plane in AH, yes it has a short clip. But it will teach you good habits. Has good guns if you get in CLOSE! And this plane is so nimble that its not hard to get in close. Its also fast, faster than the la5.
Keep it in the vertical and it will loop all day.
This is perhaps the single easiest plane for a new pilot to go out and get 2 kills with, and return alive. And that gentlemen, for a new pilot is HUGE.
Overall, good list & post Karnak
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I like the Yaks handling and views and such but I'm all about firepower and trigger time, so I don't fly it often at all.
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Hoarach, I was comparing the 110 to 38. I didn't say 38 has bad firepower, in most cases the 4 nose fifties are as effective as a jug's 8. I said it was inferior to the 110 in that departement (and that alone).
Widewing, you are thinking of a duel in which case I totaly agree - I was talking about the areanas, where you are often killed by a plane other than the one you are fighting. Read the "feeding of scraps" remark.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Trust me, I am very well aware of what kind of flaps the P-38 has. The Ki-84 has the same kind. I was merely simplifying it into the effect it has in game as many readers won't know what the heck Fowler Flaps are. Also the F4U doesn't have Fowler Flaps, yet also has uber-flaps in AH.
That's why I didn't mention the F4U. Your implications is that "uberflappen" are incorrect, which I would agree with for the Corsair. But they're fine on the P-38 and Ki-84.
And you're fooling yourself if you think just anybody can do well in a P-38. It's not nearly as hard as a P-47 or FW-190, but it's nothing like a Spitfire Sixteen as you state. P-38 is one of the last fighters I would recommend to a new pilot (unless he were as crazy about the 38 as I was when I was learning). The same is true of half of your list. None of those fighters do the work for you, nor do they offer anything like absolute superiority over the average fighter (except for the Ki-84, which is absolutely superior to the average fighter on the deck).
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We had an EXTENSIVE discussion about the F4U's flaps not long ago. F4UDOA posted data that shows the Hog's flaps generate an INSANE amount of lift.
Power on, the Corsair's flaps generated nearly the same amount of lift (calculated by % reduction of stall speed) at only one or two notches as the P-51B received at FULL flaps.
No one really seemed to be able to answer WHY the F4U benefited from significantly greater lift with flaps deployed in comparison to other aircraft, (I still wonder if it was in any way connected with the gull wing design) but I think Widewing indicated that performance is EXACTLY how our Corsair is modeled. What's NOT modeled correctly is the Hog's wicked low-speed stall.
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Gianlupo, did you get sick on the side of your Macchi again?? :furious
Clean it up before somebody disrespects the lovely, beautiful aircraft that I adore!
:furious
Too late, he already did!
FYI Anybody that says the C2 is like any type of spitfire (I don't care WHICH spitfire) hasn't flown it enough to know better. Or doesn't push it hard enough. Its stall and wing dip are more like 109s and 190s. It breaks hard at high speeds, but you don't want to do sustained turns in it, or you're in very big trouble.
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Originally posted by Krusty
[B
FYI Anybody that says the C2 is like any type of spitfire (I don't care WHICH spitfire) hasn't flown it enough to know better. Or doesn't push it hard enough. Its stall and wing dip are more like 109s and 190s. [/B]
I always treat the 205 as a kind of baby-D9 and fly it that way.
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Gunnery is more important than ACM.
It is.
Usually a lack of sufficient gunnery is what makes it necessary for a pilot to engage in a prolinged ACM contest. The longer the fight, the higher the danger.
If I'm not the usual cherrypicker...
If I had good gunnery, I wouldn't be flying the 109G. I'd be in the 109K.
If I had better gunnery, I wouldn't be in a 109K, I'd be in a 190D.
If I had the best gunnery, I wouldn't be in a 190D, I'd settle down with a 190A.
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Krusty, it wasn't me, it's that st**ky british!!! he puked his jacket potatoes on the plane!!!! :mad:
Again, about gunnery, please, don't say it's more important then ACM: the latter is the founding on which to build on, but, of course, it's useless if you cannot hit your target (in a very very brief time)... gunnery it's a skill that as to be nurtured along with ACM, but can't make up for the lack of latter.
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Of the two, I say gunnery is useless without ACM. That means all you'd do is HO, extend, turn, HO, extend. We see enough of this in the dweeby newbies.
You need a small amount of gunnery. Even BAD shots can still get kills. You just need to get in close. To do that requires more ACM than gunnery. If you get a shot and blow it, the way you get a SECOND shot is to reposition. To do that you need to know how to fly your aircraft.
So gunnery does nothing if you can't fly worth a crap.
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Originally posted by Sketch
C205: Great climb, very nice ammo load-out, decent WEP, and handles very nicely and can take some punishment.
I agree on all but the punishment part. These little babys DO NOT take hits very well.
You forgot one of it's strengths though... SPEED.
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Its speed is rather slow. It's faster than a spit9, but not a 109G-2, it's slower than every US plane except the F4f or P40. Not a speed demon, but handles well in dives.
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Good gunnery can compensate lack of ACM.
Good ACM skill can compensate lack of gunnery.
Depending of situation either ACM or gunnery is preferable.
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poor acm + poor gunnery = ho tards They can't shoot or turn so HO is it.
poor acm + good gunnery = cherry picker Can't turn with you but will pick you with one good shot opportunity.
good acm + poor gunnery = furballer I can't hit anything beyond 200. If I fly this plane good enough to burn your E away. Then you cant get beyond 200.
Good gunnery + good acm = Levi bot. Self explanatory, he don't miss and he drags you into the slow fight.
Bronk
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But I can pee farther than any of you.
Amazing how some need to get into arguments over a subject NOT EVEN RELEVANT to the thread. :aok
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Originally posted by Krusty
Its speed is rather slow. It's faster than a spit9, but not a 109G-2, it's slower than every US plane except the F4f or P40. Not a speed demon, but handles well in dives.
The C.205 at 15K will clip along at 400 true ground speed without WEP. Maybe not the fastest plane in the set but better than most.
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Amazing how some need to get into arguments over a subject NOT EVEN RELEVANT to the thread.
It's in the genes Kar.
Did I mention my father was a lawyer?
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
The C.205 at 15K will clip along at 400 true ground speed without WEP. Maybe not the fastest plane in the set but better than most.
At 15k, the C.205 can reach 382 mph in WEP. It can touch 400 mph but requires WEP, and only up at 24k. Similar to the 109G-2 in general...
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
At 15k, the C.205 can reach 382 mph in WEP. It can touch 400 mph but requires WEP, and only up at 24k. Similar to the 109G-2 in general...
My regards,
Widewing
Hmmm, I'll have to check that. Not arguing with you but I was sure that's what I saw on the Speedo one night flying over Small Pizza. I'll have to see how easy it is to tell the difference on the speedometer too (I didn't check E6B).
It could also be I was thinking "Wow, almost 400" so it was the 400 that stuck in my mind but I know I didn't have WEP on and it took a while to reach that speed (at least a half sector if not longer).
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
The C.205 at 15K will clip along at 400 true ground speed without WEP. Maybe not the fastest plane in the set but better than most.
Hrm... really? Because it only does about 360 in this game. Even WITH wep it barely hits 380.
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=c205&p2=p51d&p3=p38l&p4=p47d11
It does climb like a lesser 109, though.
EDIT: BAH! Widewing beat me to it... d'oh!
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Originally posted by Krusty
Of the two, I say gunnery is useless without ACM. That means all you'd do is HO, extend, turn, HO, extend. We see enough of this in the dweeby newbies.
You need a small amount of gunnery. Even BAD shots can still get kills. You just need to get in close. To do that requires more ACM than gunnery. If you get a shot and blow it, the way you get a SECOND shot is to reposition. To do that you need to know how to fly your aircraft.
So gunnery does nothing if you can't fly worth a crap.
Krusty, you're not taking time into account: the more time you spend in killing your target, the more you expose yourself to other pilots.. if you can kill your target in 1 or 2 pass, you'll be the god of dogfighting, you'll be able to keep your E and initiative, while you'll lose both of them if you keep maneuvering behind your target for too long time. I'm not saying that ACM is not important, I believe it's of the utmost importance, but, without an adequate gunnery, it's nothing... I think Oleg and Bronk nailed it right, I totally agree with what they wrote.
Amazing how some need to get into arguments over a subject NOT EVEN RELEVANT to the thread.
Karaya, before HTC pwnd it, my signature said "Top BBS thread hijacker"... I'm just keeping in exercise! :D And, btw, I'll be a lawyer, too, soon, very soon... :noid
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Benny,
I have to disagree about the P-38L. It is a massively easy fighter to get kills in, in my experience. P-38 drivers such as yourself like to talk it up as hard, but it is really easy.
as to the Bf110, well, in all the Mossie flying I did I never lost a fight to one and I killed a lot of them, the most humerous being a kill of one after I was out of 20mm ammo. Therefor, if the Mossie shouldn't be on my list (and it most definately shouldn't be) then the Bf110 shouldn't be on it either.
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... Not for a new flier. A new flier can do reasonably well in a Spitfire, but put him in a 38 and I guarantee you some entertainment (if you're the sadistic sort who likes to see airplanes crash). Again, it's not one of the superhards like the P-47, but it's far from a Spitfire or Ki-84. The 38's about as difficult to fight in as an Me-109.
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In my experience the P-38 was right up there with the Spitfire for ease of use, hampered only by poor pilot views and being a larger target. It isn't anywhere near the Bf109 in difficulty.
The most kills I have ever landed was 12 in an A6M5 (don't ask, I don't know) followed by 8 in each of the P-38L, Typhoon Mk Ib, N1K2-J and Mosquito Mk VI. I hardly ever fly the P-38, N1K2-J or Typhoon whereas I have thousands of kills in the Mosquito.
The P-38L is pure easymode, only a little behind the top dogs like the Spit XVI, N1K2-J and La-7. It is certainly no harder than the Ki-84, being in my opinon harder to survive in and much easier to get kills with thanks to centerline guns with great ballistics.
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So how many of them 12 were proxies...? ;)
38 was one of the few planes I stepped out of my Hog for to try out a bit a couple tours back. Very stable, climbs well, good guns package and location. Views as mentioned rather poor, especially trying to look down out either side. She turns well, but IMO you can really feel the weight, and even in the L your rate of roll is average at best even coordinated with rudder (38 has two rudders, but it's a lot of airplane to move and they're not that big). Her size allows her to soak up more damage, but while I can lose half a wing in a Hog and know I can get her home (even if I'm in a spin, so long as I've got a few thousand feet of alt to get her stabilized and can get my flaps out a notch or two) generally if you've lost part of a wing in a 38 you've ALSO either lost or suffered engine damage on that side as well, and that thrust differential makes her almost impossible to control with one engine and one wing shot off. That said, differential thrust can be used to advantage to help swing through a turn. However doing this can keep you pretty busy even if you have a dual throttle (just try it with a single throttle!)
Diving in a 38, even with the dive flaps, is a dicey prospect. Even at reduced power she can accelerate to speeds where elevator authority is close to non-existent.
She IS big, but I find her deceptively large as if you don't give a 38 enough lead your fire will harmlessly be sucked into that black hole between the booms.
However, I just want to say: Gull wings > twin booms. :D
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Heh. None were proxies. I was just nailing my shots. I am still dumbfounded when I think back on that fight. For that one flight I was the A6M from hell.
Sadly I didn't record it.
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On the Star of Africa snapshot I was in a 38G. It happens I had my port wingtip shot off... As I'm trying to level out (is very hard) I'm being shot up by 2-3 FW190s. One of them shoots out my starboard engine!
It was perfect! Thanks to that I was able to effortlessly (well, almost) trim it out and control it all the way down for a safe landing.
Often I'll lose something in a 38 that doesn't include engine, and other times I'll lose engine but nothing else. You don't always lose wingtip and engine or parts and same engine. It's a crapshoot.
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OT
Originally posted by Saxman
We had an EXTENSIVE discussion about the F4U's flaps not long ago. F4UDOA posted data that shows the Hog's flaps generate an INSANE amount of lift.
Power on, the Corsair's flaps generated nearly the same amount of lift (calculated by % reduction of stall speed) at only one or two notches as the P-51B received at FULL flaps.
No one really seemed to be able to answer WHY the F4U benefited from significantly greater lift with flaps deployed in comparison to other aircraft, (I still wonder if it was in any way connected with the gull wing design) but I think Widewing indicated that performance is EXACTLY how our Corsair is modeled. What's NOT modeled correctly is the Hog's wicked low-speed stall.
Hi,
the calculation is in %, now some could assume that the flaps was that good, but we also could assume that the wing without flaps was bad regarding its lift and actually thats what i think is the point(the very smal aspectratio is a hint to this).
1.Bad wing(regarding lift and stallspeed) + normal flaps = big lift win in %
2.Good wing + normal flaps = smaler gain in %
3.Very good wing + normal flaps = even smaler gain in % (Ta152H)
4.Very good wing + fowler flaps = similar gain like 2. in % (P38G,H,J,L).
Another thing is: At what speed this lift gain was usable, for what price(drag) and what behaviour the plane did show with full flaps(nose down)?
Flaps, and specialy full flaps wasnt made to manouver better, like its in AH now, also not in the P38.
But as i found out while a other discussion, almost all planes in AH behave in this way now, with the different that the F4U flaps are usable at much higher speed, than in most other planes.
Greetings,
Knegel
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Actually, I thought I saw somewhere our F4U's flaps aren't available until about 50mph SLOWER than per the manual (first notch kicks in at 250 in the game, thought I read the real bird could drop them at 300. Also I remember from another discussion, the real F4U could drop the flap lever a notch so that when airspeed decreased to the point flaps could deploy they would do so automatically, and blow back up again as speed increased). The aircraft's manual even indicates that the flaps can be used for maneuvering.
Here's the chart posted by F4UDOA showing the F4U's stall speeds:
(http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/F4Ustall.jpg)
As a point of comparison, per DOA the P-51B power off full flaps has an improvement of 7% in its stall speed. Power off stall without flaps is 101mph, full flaps 94mph. The Hog achieves this difference--at lower ACTUAL speeds, with two notches of flaps.
F4U stall speed power off no flaps is 94mph, 86mph power off full flaps. Power on, the differences in the Corsair's stall speed with and without flaps is even MORE significant.
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Originally posted by Karnak
The P-38L is pure easymode, only a little behind the top dogs like the Spit XVI, N1K2-J and La-7. It is certainly no harder than the Ki-84, being in my opinon harder to survive in and much easier to get kills with thanks to centerline guns with great ballistics.
I disagree. For people like me, with just basic skills, learning how to use the 38's flaps is not intuitive and takes awhile to master. The plane, especially the G version, has some very ugly stall qualities. Plus, it's a huge target. While it's certainly one of the best knife fighters once mastered, I think it takes awhile to master - certainly at least as long as the G6.
- oldman
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What I see is if the P38 is so easy to fly than why do 95% of the pilots that fly it totally suck in it. Too many pilots use it just for toolshedding and BnZ. Most dont know how to dogfight in the P38 or own a spitfire in a 1v1. The P38 can be an easy plane but too many are oblivious to what it can actually do.
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Originally posted by Karnak
In my experience the P-38 was right up there with the Spitfire for ease of use, hampered only by poor pilot views and being a larger target. It isn't anywhere near the Bf109 in difficulty.
The most kills I have ever landed was 12 in an A6M5 (don't ask, I don't know) followed by 8 in each of the P-38L, Typhoon Mk Ib, N1K2-J and Mosquito Mk VI. I hardly ever fly the P-38, N1K2-J or Typhoon whereas I have thousands of kills in the Mosquito.
The P-38L is pure easymode, only a little behind the top dogs like the Spit XVI, N1K2-J and La-7. It is certainly no harder than the Ki-84, being in my opinon harder to survive in and much easier to get kills with thanks to centerline guns with great ballistics.
Going from the Mossi, with its buggered up FM and being proficient with it.
Just bout every ac is going to feel easy, wouldn't it?
The 109 is just as easy to get kills in once you acclimate yourself to its quirks.
Bronk
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I took a P-38G up for a whirl last night. I think it was only my second time in that plane and I've only flown P-38's in general a handful of times. I got 2 quick kills in a largely outnumbered area against a number of other types of aircraft (P-38's, LA's, 190's, etc.), finally lost the starboard engine, exited and flew home safely. Seemed pretty easy-mode to me.
On the other hand, flying anything else I always look forward to fighting P-38's because, in general, they are easy kills.
Go figure.
BTW, I liked and was impressed with the 38G's abilities.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Actually, I thought I saw somewhere our F4U's flaps aren't available until about 50mph SLOWER than per the manual (first notch kicks in at 250 in the game, thought I read the real bird could drop them at 300. Also I remember from another discussion, the real F4U could drop the flap lever a notch so that when airspeed decreased to the point flaps could deploy they would do so automatically, and blow back up again as speed increased). The aircraft's manual even indicates that the flaps can be used for maneuvering.
Here's the chart posted by F4UDOA showing the F4U's stall speeds:
(http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/F4Ustall.jpg)
As a point of comparison, per DOA the P-51B power off full flaps has an improvement of 7% in its stall speed. Power off stall without flaps is 101mph, full flaps 94mph. The Hog achieves this difference--at lower ACTUAL speeds, with two notches of flaps.
F4U stall speed power off no flaps is 94mph, 86mph power off full flaps. Power on, the differences in the Corsair's stall speed with and without flaps is even MORE significant.
Hi,
many planes could use their flaps at higher speeds, i talk about the relations here. I wrote that the F4U can use them "much more early" than others, not "to early".
Also regarding the stallspeed and lift behaviour i talk about relations. Although the F4U have a lower stallspeed, the lift efficiency can be rather bad. The stall speed is, next to other factors, related to max liftload and the liftload get infuenced by the wingarea and the F4U is more light wingloaded. btw, the F4U stallspeeds in that maual are made with almost dry tanks, so the wingload is very low, resulting in a rather low stall speed.
With that weight the wingload is 176kg/m², while the P51D with 75% fule still has 203kg/m².
That the stall speed of the F4U drop by using the flaps dont indicate that the lift increase that much over the whole speed range.
It is absolut normal for flaps that only a few degrees of flaps create more lift than full flaps, but of course at a different speed!! Full flaps result in a slowspeed airfoil, but a bad one, while the flapless parts of the wings already tend to stall. This conficuration is usefull for landing, but manouvering is not that good.
Normal Flaps are made to lower the stall speed and the aproach speed (drag) and to provide a better sight while landing(nose down behaviour). Flaps dont need to create more lift and in general they dont do that, they need to create the same lift at slower speeds.
Flaps in general tend to decrease the max lift, although the lift at a given AoA increase, the max AoA tend to decrease, resulting in a smaler max lift + much more drag.
As you can read in the manual 0-20° is the manouver flap setting and its good to slow the plane fast down. In AH i can manouver very good with full flaps. Tight turn with more than 45°-60° bank at 100mph(F4U-1D, 100% fuel), without a bad tendency to snaproll or spin. With 25% the turnspeed dont drop, but the radius, it feels more like a UL glider than like flying a heavy WWII fighter then. And no tendency to enter a spin at all.
Regarding this the F4U´s are real rooki planes.
Greetings,
Knegel
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If you're saying the Hog's a newbie plane you are SERIOUSLY mistaken. She can, does and WILL spin without warning, and even after over a year of flying the Corsair here almost exclusively I still have her get out from under me from time to time.
There's some guys in here who can make the F4Us do some absolutely gravity-defying stunts, but you're talking less than 10% of Hog drivers, if THAT. Guaranteed you take a guy who's learned everything about the game from Spitfires or ElGay-7s and stick him in a Hog he's gonna be lost, most likely spending most of his time spinning himself into the ground or getting run down trying to bug out 'cause all of his acceleration has gone buh-bye.
She may not have the challenge of some of the German iron, but she's NOT an easy bird to learn.
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Hi,
the F4U is one of the most forgiven planes in AH and due to the flaps the plane with the widest range of possibilitys. If you think it have a bad behaviour, try the FW190, P47, P51 or even Tempest, even the SpitIXc stall/spin more dangerus.
With the flaps its one of the best turnfighters and without flaps its one of the fastests and energysaving planes in AH.
The F4U-4 imho is the best plane in AH.
Greetings,
Knegel
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The F4U, while very capable planes, are among the last rides I would ever recommend a newb to start his AH career in. Definitely no easy rides.
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The key to the F4U isn't just dumping flaps, it's knowing WHEN to drop them. Kicking a notch of flaps at the right time can haul that nose over just enough to take a shot. Too soon and you'll go too far, too late and you've just bled off a bit more energy and not gained angles.
Also remember that while the Hog has a tight turning circle with full flaps, she's got a slower turn RATE that way. That means if you don't have your shot within the first 1-2 turns you'd better hope there's a friend in the area cause that bad guy's going to circle in behind you.
Stability is also GREATLY reduced near stall stall speeds, especially when attempting turns to the right.
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Originally posted by Lusche
The F4U, while very capable planes, are among the last rides I would ever recommend a newb to start his AH career in. Defenitely no easy rides.
One of my squaddies did just that. He's now a very capable F4U pilot (saw him land 7 in the D model after exiting a furball just last night). I do agree however that it's probably not the 1st plane I'd recommend to a newbie.
That said I've been flying the F4U's more and more lately and they aren't that difficult to fly. While I like the D I find the A easier to fly. The first one I flew was the C which was a great introduction. They are however difficult to land. They have a nasty tendancy to want to ground loop on landing.
Whomever mentioned it above, the FW190's aren't that hard to fly either. They happen to be one of the familys of planes I do the best in but are also one I've spent a lot of time in. Model makes a difference with the 190's. The A8 is my favorite with the D9 second but you have to fly them very differently. I had some trouble getting used to the A5 and I don't know why as it's flight charachteristics aren't a lot different from the A8. I also like the Ta152 a lot which is yet another entirely different beast. With the 190's you just have to remember to limit your turns and never (or at least rarely) take them over the top.
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Well, my list wasn't meant to be seen as a "what a newbie should fly" list, but rather what an experienced or veteran pilot might want to fly to get almost all of the ease of the top dogs and none of the bad rep for using an easymode fighter.
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I've been flying the P-38J a lot recently. For me, it is a much harder plane to fly than a P-47 because of its poor roll at some speeds and quick transition to complete control lockup. It probably just has to do with the individual.
(I'd like to be flying the P-38G instead, but I just can't see through the gunsight acceptably -- too dark, as AH has the optional dark glass installed, which is like sunglasses and which wasn't used always.)
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Originally posted by Brooke
I've been flying the P-38J a lot recently. For me, it is a much harder plane to fly than a P-47 because of its poor roll at some speeds and quick transition to complete control lockup. It probably just has to do with the individual.
Here's a tip that might help you with over speeding. Just ease back on the throttle some (I know you already know this) and just use your rudders to add some extra drag to slow you down. Doing this in a high speed dive, you can keep your plane around the 450-475MPH mark and still retain control without locking up, provided you're below the compressability threshold (below 20,000ft). Although, at those speeds the controls will be sluggish and will take a lot of rudder input for rolls.
ack-ack
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I took the P-38G up for a couple more spins tonight. One misson I was alone in a one on about ten. Stayed alive for several minutes (3-4) and managed one kill.
Later in the evening I tried it again. Up against Spits, NIKs and others. 2 landed kills.
I'm becoming more and more impressed with this thing every time I up in it. For some reason the handling charachteristics really remind me of the Hurri (I or II) which is another of my best planes to fly. I'm sure it doesn't turn quite as well but it's much better going over the top. It seems you have to manage the throttle on the way down though.
Think I found a new one to add to my favorites list.
That said I'm sure my time is going to come where I'm not so lucky in it but for now I'm enjoying it a lot. Maybe when that day comes I'll try one of the others.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Diving in a 38, even with the dive flaps, is a dicey prospect. Even at reduced power she can accelerate to speeds where elevator authority is close to non-existent.
Most pilots do not realize that the dive recovery flaps (called "speed boards" by the P-38 pilots of the day) only work properly if combat trim is turned off. This is because combat trim attempts to neutralize the pitch-up induced by the speed boards.
With combat trim off and elevator trim neutral, the speed boards will cause a 3g, hands-off pull out.
You can assist this further by rolling in some elevator trim.
My regards,
Widewing
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BTW, Widewing/Krusty,
I finally took the C.205 up again last night. You were right. 375/380ish was all it would do at 15K (hard to tell exactly as speedo is only incremented in 25 mph increments).
Memory must be failing me as I grow older.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
BTW, Widewing/Krusty,
I finally took the C.205 up again last night. You were right. 375/380ish was all it would do at 15K (hard to tell exactly as speedo is only incremented in 25 mph increments).
Memory must be failing me as I grow older.
LOL... I can certainly relate.
Use E6B to get accurate speed readings.
My regards,
Widewing