Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Vespasiano on March 07, 2007, 04:30:13 PM
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Hello All,
I'm a french student, impassioned by aviation, I am playing to AH since last year, and I would like to know why french Fighters are always forgotten in flight games, AH, Flight Simulator, Il-2...
We often see some people saying that they were bad planes, not really powerfull, but do you know these ones ?
Dewoitine D-520 : Best french fighter, some great Aces, for example Pierre le Gloan, who shot down 5 Fiat Cr-42 in the same day
Curtiss "Hawk" 75 : Version of the american Curtiss P-36 for the french armée de l'air, it was not well armed, but it was a great fighter, even against Messerschmitt Bf-109, with many victories in dogfight.
Arsenal Vg-33 : It was only a prototype because of the end of the war in France in 1940, but it was a really great plane, as powerfull than the first Spitfire or Messerschmitt...
There were also Morane-Saulnier 406 and Bloch 152, but they were less efficient against Luftwaffe.
We know that the french aviation hasn't taken part to a great period of the war, but our pilots fought well with these great planes, so why not to add them in a game ? I'm sure many people in France and even in other countries should be intersting in flying these aircrafts.
See you soon.
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Agreed, the D.520 and Hawk 75 would both be fun additions to the game. I would also suggest the M.S. 406.
D.520
(http://wiki.wwiionline.com/images/c/c3/Ac_fr_d-520.jpg)
Armed with 1x Hispano 20mm, 4x 7.5mm MGs
Curtiss Hawk 75C
(http://www.grape-nutz.com/travel/euro05/images/uk/das_2423.jpg)
Armed with 4x/2x wingmounted MGs, and 2 MGs mounted above the engine firing through the propeller.
Finnish M.S. 406
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Morane-Saulnier..1.jpg/300px-Morane-Saulnier..1.jpg)
Armed with 1x Hispano 20mm, 2x 7.5mm MGs.
I hate to plug another game, but the Dewotine and H75 are both featured in World War II Online. The air combat in that game isn't as massive as this game by a long shot, but still worth checking out. It includes a lot of other lesser-known French weapons, like the Suoma S35 tank, MAS 36 rifle, etc... The image of the D.520 is from that game.
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Thanks for your answer ;)
Because of all desperate french virtual pilots, these planes adapted in an intersting game as AH should be very successful, at least D-520... for the moment there is no possibility to fly our beautiful planes, like part of history forgotten... :(
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A MB152 or a MS406 would better than the VG33 at least they were used.
Et puis le VG 33 c'est pas franchement un zinc d'enfer ;)
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Plus rapide que le d520 quand même...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arsenal_VG-33
As I said, it shouldn't be necessary to add all these planes, but perhaps one or two of the most interesting... :)
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Prototype data :)
You know combat pilot though it was a "junk" plane so :)
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See Rule #5
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See Rule #5
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See Rule #5
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Originally posted by Ball
See Rule #5
Furby ,you're not supposed to bring morons here, look who posted after you.
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Hawk75.. yeah.. There's a thoroughbred right there...
Take a P40B... Remove a quarter of its horsepower. Now add a LARGE MASSIVE amount of frontal drag for the radial engine. Now put 1x 50cal and 1x 30cal in the cowling, and 2 optional 30cals in drag-inducing gondolas under the wings outboard of the landing gear. Maximum speed of 280mph at 10,000 feet. That's probably around 230 at sea level.
Ain't NOBODY going to be intimidated by this dainty bird.
EDIT: Don't confuse the "Curtiss Hawk 75" with the "Curtiss Model 75".
France didn't get any of the Hawk 75s, but they did get Model 75s (P-36s, basically). At least according to David Mondey's book, "American Aircraft of World War II".
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lol we need a French fighter:aok
(btw u say that Hawk 75 wouldnt be intimadated,i never thought a hurri Mk1 was a threat till i got pwned by one:noid )
now back on topic
all the French fighters shown here i would try to fly :D
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See Rule #2
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In February 1938, two months before the first P-36A had rolled off the Buffalo assembly lines for the USAAC, the French government entered into negotiations with the Curtiss company for the supply of 300 fighters of the Hawk 75A type which Curtiss had offered to the Armee de l'Air. The Hawk 75A was an export version of the P-36A, and was being offered for sale with either the Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp or the Wright Cyclone engine.
75 was the Curtiss model number and Hawk was the name given to Curtiss fighters.
Curtiss Hawk Model 75, aka P-36.
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Originally posted by straffo
Prototype data :)
You know combat pilot though it was a "junk" plane so :)
So wrong... The D.520 was very well liked by its pilots, and was used into 1942 by the Vichy government. It could turn with a 109E, and rolled at an amazing rate. The only downsides to it where limited cannon ammo (60 rounds) and a low top speed compared to the 109E (530KMH).
Krusty, the H75 may be slow but it was an exceptional knife fighter.
Oh, and by the way, the Hawk 75 is is P-36.
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wstpt10 my post was about the VG33 not the D520
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edit: just reworded a line or two for clarification.
Milo I've got a book that splits the hawk 75 into a completely different write-up from the P-36. It mentions that the french ordered and received aircraft under the P-36s entry, but that the Hawk 75 was only used by a few countries (Argentina, China, Thailand).
It does say first printed 1982... So it could have a piece or two of bad info. It just makes an effort to distinguish the two types. It does seem to lump "Hawk 75A" in with "P-36," and separates "Hawk 75" (no "A") as a different category.
It does mention, however, that the majority of the Hawk 75As were diverted to UK as France had fallen. Not sure how many actually made it to France before this point.
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When France was overrun by Germany in June 1940, 291 assorted Hawk A-1, A-2, and A-3s had been delivered. From those not destroyed in the Battle of France, Germany sold Finland 36 of the Hawk fighters. Finland purchased an additional 8 Hawk A-7s from Germany when Norway was occupied to bring the total of 44. The first five Hawks delivered were serialled CU-501 to CU-505. The following thirty-nine were serialled CU-551 to CU-589. Some of the serials had a small subscript w, such as the aircraft I have modeled, after the CU. This indicated that the aircraft have been either refitted or repaired at the Finnish Aircraft Service Factory VL (Valtion Lentokonetehdas). All Hawk fighters were assigned to three flights of Flying Squadron 32 (Lentolaivue 32) and remained in service until the end on the Continuation War with the USSR. A few survivors remained in Finland's Air Force inventory until 1948. LeLv (Lentolaivue) 32 distinguished themselves very well with the Curtiss fighters and achieved 190 victories with them for the loss of only 15 in combat situations.
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Oh yes... Curtiss Hawk 75A to AH. But only after we get the Brewster 239. :)
Finland received a total of 77 M.S. 406's and 10 M.S. 410's - some of which were later converted to use the Klimov engine. Lentolaivue 28 used Moranes and later on some of the Moranes were delivered to Lentolaivue 14, which was actually a recce squad. The Finns achieved 135 victories (of which 14 in Winter War 1939-40) in Moranes for the loss of 18 planes.
(Facts checked from Pentti Perttula's excellent site (http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/faf.html)).
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cool
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Oh yes... perhapas you don't think you should be intimidated in front of a H75... but let me fly a D520, even if you are in a 109 you'll see what this aircraft can do. :)
It may be difficult to model such planes as D520 or Brewster mentionned many time on this forum, which are not famous as Spitfire or P-51, but we could help giving documents and many information if someone decided to add them in AH.
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Originally posted by Vespasiano
Hello All,
I'm a french student, impassioned by aviation, I am playing to AH since last year, and I would like to know why french Fighters are always forgotten in flight games, AH, Flight Simulator, Il-2...
Hi,
Il-2 include the MS406 and Haw75, otherwise i guess the othe rplanes dont get included cause they played only a very smal role in WWII.
The performence of this planes also was not up to date. Sure they could turn, but thats what also the Hurri could, which did count as disadvanced.
The designs of the DW520 and MS406 was good, but they did lack a good engine. Similar designs, like the Fiat G50 and Mc200 fitted with a strong engine could show its potential in form of the G-55 and Mc202/5, the french planes dont had this luck, so normaly only the two by the FAF successfully used types find its way into a flightsim.
I only know European Airwar where you can "fly" a DW520, C714, DW371, MB152, Po54 and Leo451(the bombers are meant as Ai though, EAW is a fighter sim mainly, though you can fly the bombers).
In AH iam all for a MS406 and Haw75 but we still miss same or more important planes, like the Yak1, Mig-3, Lagg-3, I-16, Do-17, Pe-2, Brewster F2A, Ju87G, He111, Me410, Gloster Gladiator, Ki-43, Ki-44, Blenheim, Beaufighter, SpitVCcw, FW190A9, B25, B29 and last but not least the P39.
For a BoF setup we also would need the Bf109E1 and E3 and the pre BoB Hurris and Spits as well.
Greetings,
Knegel
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That's obvious that they didn't have an important role during WWII... but D520 was also used by Vichy's government (bad part of our history I agree) in North Africa against the allied aviation, then some were used by free french forces, even at this time they were not so old. :)
Ms-406 and H75 are in Il-2, but they were not made to be used as french fighters, we have to change the skins, and there is still not Dewoitine.
Yak-1 should be an intersting plane too, the first one used by the french squadron "Normandie Niemen" :aok
ps : just about what is written in your signature :
"The 1st engined flight was made by Richard Pearse, Waitohi, New Zealand, March 31, 1902, May 11, 1903 1st 1000yard+ flight, Karl Jatho, 18.August 1903, Hannover - Vahrenheide. In November he reached already 60m distances. The Wright 'Flyer 1' made its 1st flight(36m) at 17. December 1903!"
That's wrong, I know he is not really known in other continents, but the first engined flight was made by Clément Ader in 1890, who invented the name "avion", meaning "plane", used in french, in italian, in spanish and some other european languages. This is too the origin of the world "aviation" you are also using yourselves. :)
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There isnt a lot of interest in anything that wasnt a 1945 bird, thats why. Ask for yet another jet, and watch all the interest especaily if it had 6 x 20mm cannons.
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That's what I wanted to say... french aircrafts are generally considerated as having no interest with all Spitfire, Thunderbolt, Mustang... but here I'm sure getting a D520 and creating a french squadron should be really appreciated, WWII didn't begin in 1945.
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D.520 would be a nice early war addition than could, if flown with panache, get kills in any era of AH.
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BTW World War II Online has Curtiss Hawk 75 and Dewoitine 520. Sweet planes.
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They also have a H-81, the french P-40, that was in fact never used because sent to late.
http://www.firingsquad.com/media/article_images.asp/1677
But World War II Online isn't as intesting as AH.
The most intersting I think is the D520, it had not so many time to prove it was a real great fighter, but in a flight simulation it should be well used.
Perhaps it is difficult for american people to modelize such a plane because of the lack of documentation... is there a group of people realizing new planes or only some players that are able to do it when they want ?
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Originally posted by Vespasiano
They also have a H-81, the french P-40, that was in fact never used because sent to late.
http://www.firingsquad.com/media/article_images.asp/1677
But World War II Online isn't as intesting as AH.
The most intersting I think is the D520, it had not so many time to prove it was a real great fighter, but in a flight simulation it should be well used.
Perhaps it is difficult for american people to modelize such a plane because of the lack of documentation... is there a group of people realizing new planes or only some players that are able to do it when they want ?
The H-81 is in the game right now, as the P-40B.
The air war in WWIIOL definatly isn't as much fun as in AH2, but you should give the ground game a shot. It's a lot more gratifying to watch the turret pop off a Tiger with a 3" high velocity round than it is in this game, IMO.
Cockpit view of the Dewotine in WWIIOL:
(http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/6109/sshot167mk1gi7.png)
The P-38s are 38Fs. The French purchased a number of them as the Lockheed 322-15, but none were delivered in time.
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Yes, it's not as interesting to fly planes which were never used, as it was said for the prototype Arsenal VG-33...
H-81 wasn't a great fighter compared to the Dewoitine, much more exciting to fly the D520. :)
(even if some pilotes used it perfectly, in the American Volunteer Group in China or the 112th "Shark Squadron" in North Africa) :)
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Originally posted by Krusty
Hawk75.. yeah.. There's a thoroughbred right there...
Take a P40B... Remove a quarter of its horsepower. Now add a LARGE MASSIVE amount of frontal drag for the radial engine. Now put 1x 50cal and 1x 30cal in the cowling, and 2 optional 30cals in drag-inducing gondolas under the wings outboard of the landing gear. Maximum speed of 280mph at 10,000 feet. That's probably around 230 at sea level.
What drag inducing gondolas? Those 30 cals were wing mounted. And what is your source for the speed at 10k?
EDIT/And FYI, the worst documented top speed that I know for the Hawk 75A was obtained in FiAF flight testing and it was around 250mph. The normal result is 267mph/EDIT
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The maximum speed was 300mph for the H-75A-1, near 500km/h, 310mph for the A-2.
And it was 330mph for the Dewoitine D520 :)
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
The following thirty-nine were serialled CU-551 to CU-589. Some of the serials had a small subscript w, such as the aircraft I have modeled, after the CU. This indicated that the aircraft have been either refitted or repaired at the Finnish Aircraft Service Factory VL (Valtion Lentokonetehdas).
The subscript w (and c) actually came from the fact that we had Hawks with both engines, Cyclones and Twin Wasps. So the first letters from the engine names were added as subscripts for practical reasons (book keeping, etc.). After it was found that Cyclones overheated very easily in certain maneuvers and were getting damaged the Cyclones were used in the Brewsters.
After all the Cyclone-Hawks had had their engines changed to Twin Wasps the subscript letters were over painted as they didn't have any use any more. Allthough Cyclone had its problems the Curtiss-pilots sure weren't happy to lose the 30mph top speed advantage the Cyclone-Curtiss enjoyed over the Twin Wasp engined Hawk.
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Originally posted by Vespasiano
That's obvious that they didn't have an important role during WWII... but D520 was also used by Vichy's government (bad part of our history I agree) in North Africa against the allied aviation, then some were used by free french forces, even at this time they were not so old. :)
Ms-406 and H75 are in Il-2, but they were not made to be used as french fighters, we have to change the skins, and there is still not Dewoitine.
Yak-1 should be an intersting plane too, the first one used by the french squadron "Normandie Niemen" :aok
ps : just about what is written in your signature :
"The 1st engined flight was made by Richard Pearse, Waitohi, New Zealand, March 31, 1902, May 11, 1903 1st 1000yard+ flight, Karl Jatho, 18.August 1903, Hannover - Vahrenheide. In November he reached already 60m distances. The Wright 'Flyer 1' made its 1st flight(36m) at 17. December 1903!"
That's wrong, I know he is not really known in other continents, but the first engined flight was made by Clément Ader in 1890, who invented the name "avion", meaning "plane", used in french, in italian, in spanish and some other european languages. This is too the origin of the world "aviation" you are also using yourselves. :)
Hi,
afaik Clément Ader made the 1st non controlled flight with a engine powered vehicle heavyer than air and he crashed while that, but thats different to what the Wrights still claim they was the 1st.
The Wrights claim to be the 1st, who made a controlled, powered flight, with a vehicle heaveyer than air.
At least Karl Jatho made real controlled flights, before the Wrights.
Nevertheless, i always would count Clément Ader in the same line like Otto Lilienthal, a real pioneer.
Greetings,
Knegel
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Yes, I see what you want to say, it's true that it is difficult to say what exactly was a plane or not... thanks for the information about Karl Jatho, I didn't know this man. :aok
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Originally posted by Krusty
Hawk75.. yeah.. There's a thoroughbred right there...
Take a P40B... Remove a quarter of its horsepower. Now add a LARGE MASSIVE amount of frontal drag for the radial engine. Now put 1x 50cal and 1x 30cal in the cowling, and 2 optional 30cals in drag-inducing gondolas under the wings outboard of the landing gear. Maximum speed of 280mph at 10,000 feet. That's probably around 230 at sea level.
I see it rated at 525km/h at 5200m and 529 km/h at 6000 m on different sites, that makes around 320mph at 16k. The plane was regarded as very maneuvrable but short on 20mm ammo as said before.
It would be a great early war ride.
(add the Yak-1 for late war)
Straffo : On te voit plus sur le forum que online dit moi ^^
Vespasiano : regarde tes PM's
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Er, Yak-1 for late war? That was a very early model of that line, you must mean the Yak-3.
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Originally posted by Krusty
edit: just reworded a line or two for clarification.
Milo I've got a book that splits the hawk 75 into a completely different write-up from the P-36. It mentions that the french ordered and received aircraft under the P-36s entry, but that the Hawk 75 was only used by a few countries (Argentina, China, Thailand).
It does say first printed 1982... So it could have a piece or two of bad info. It just makes an effort to distinguish the two types. It does seem to lump "Hawk 75A" in with "P-36," and separates "Hawk 75" (no "A") as a different category.
It does mention, however, that the majority of the Hawk 75As were diverted to UK as France had fallen. Not sure how many actually made it to France before this point.
Hawk 75A-1
This initial production version from the first contract was designated Hawk 75A-1 by Curtiss. According to the original plan, the majority of the Hawk 75A-1s were to be shipped by Curtiss in disassembled form to France, with assembly being completed in France by SNCAC at Bourges. The first Hawk 75A-1 was flown at Buffalo early in December 1938. The first Hawk 75A-1s were delivered by ship to France on December 14, 1938. Fourteen more Hawk 75A-1s were delivered in fully-assembled form for Armée de l'Air trials, but the rest were delivered in disassembled form. The first assembly was commenced by SNCAC in February 1939.
The Hawk 75A-1 was powered by the Pratt & Whitney R-1830-SC-G engine, offering 950 hp for takeoff. Armament comprised four 7.5 mm machine guns, two mounted in the upper decking of the fuselage nose and two in the wings. All instruments (apart from the altitude indicator) were metric calibrated. A modified seat was fitted to accommodate the French Lemercier back parachute. The throttles operated according to the French standard, i.e. in the direction reverse to the throttles of British or US aircraft. France adopted the manufacturer's number as the official serial number, so the aircraft of this series received Nos. 01 - 100.
During March and April of 1939, the 4e and 5e Escadres de Chasse had initiated conversion from the Dewoitine 500 and 501, and by July 1, 1939 the 4e Escadre had 54 Curtiss fighters on strength and the 5e Escadre had 41. The conversion had not been without problems, one Hawk 75A-1 having crash- landed when an over-speeding propeller had caused the engine to overheat, and another one had been destroyed in a fatal crash as a result of a flat spin that developed during aerobatic trials with full fuel tanks. Throughout the entire service history of the Hawk 75A, there were problems with manoeuvrability and handling when all the fuel tanks were completely full.
Hawk 75A-2
Following the placing of the initial French order for the Hawk 75A in May of 1938, an option had been taken for 100 more machines. This option was converted into a firm order on March 8, 1939. These aircraft differed from the A-1 in having an additional 7.5 mm machine gun in each wing bringing the total firepower to six guns, some structural reinforcement of the rear fuselage, and the minor modifications necessary to permit interchange between the R-1830-SC-G and the more powerful R-1830-SC2-G, the latter affording 1050 hp for takeoff.
The new model was designated Hawk 75A-2 by Curtiss. The first A-2 was delivered to France at the end of May, 1939. The first 40 of these were basically similar to the A-1 in both powerplant and armament. The first A-2 to have both the uprated engine and the increased armament was actually the 48th off the Buffalo line. French Air Force numbering continued from the Hawk 75A-1, the first Hawk 75A-2 being numbered 101.
Hawk 75A-3
Additional 135 of the Hawk 75A-3 version were ordered by France on October 9, 1939, with improved 1200 hp R-1830-S1C3G engines and armament equal to that of the A-2. About sixty aircraft of this model reached France before the surrender, with the rest being diverted to Britain.
Hawk 75A-4
The last French order before the Armistice was for 395 Hawk 75A-4 aircraft. These were armed like the A-3s but were fitted with 1200 hp Wright R-1820-G205A Cyclone engines. Cyclone-powered 75s can be easily distinguished from Twin Wasp models by the short-chord cowling of greater diameter, the absence of engine cowling flaps and bulbous nose gun port covers.
Only two hundred and eighty-four of these A-4s were actually built, and of these, only six A-4s actually reached France before the surrender.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by wstpt10
The P-38s are 38Fs. The French purchased a number of them as the Lockheed 322-15, but none were delivered in time.
They were called the Model 322F and Model 322B for the British. These models were also known as the "Castrated P-38s" because they lacked counter rotating engines and turbochargers.
As you mentioned, the French never received theirs and the British got them instead. They didn't like them, so they gave them back and the US refitted them and redesignated them the P-322 and were used in various flight training roles and fight testing experiments.
Find it kind of funny that WW2OL would give a plane (P-38F) the French never ordered or flew.
Does WW2OL at least model the French P-38 without the counter rotating engines and turbocharger?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Vespasiano
Hello All,
I'm a french student, impassioned by aviation, I am playing to AH since last year, and I would like to know why french Fighters are always forgotten in flight games, AH, Flight Simulator, Il-2...
We often see some people saying that they were bad planes, not really powerfull, but do you know these ones ?
Dewoitine D-520 : Best french fighter, some great Aces, for example Pierre le Gloan, who shot down 5 Fiat Cr-42 in the same day
Curtiss "Hawk" 75 : Version of the american Curtiss P-36 for the french armée de l'air, it was not well armed, but it was a great fighter, even against Messerschmitt Bf-109, with many victories in dogfight.
Arsenal Vg-33 : It was only a prototype because of the end of the war in France in 1940, but it was a really great plane, as powerfull than the first Spitfire or Messerschmitt...
There were also Morane-Saulnier 406 and Bloch 152, but they were less efficient against Luftwaffe.
We know that the french aviation hasn't taken part to a great period of the war, but our pilots fought well with these great planes, so why not to add them in a game ? I'm sure many people in France and even in other countries should be intersting in flying these aircrafts.
See you soon.
Part of my initial frustration with the arena split was that the early war plane set in AH is very limited.
ANY addition to the EW planeset would be welcome. These would be a great place to start IMO.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
They were called the Model 322F and Model 322B for the British. These models were also known as the "Castrated P-38s" because they lacked counter rotating engines and turbochargers.
As you mentioned, the French never received theirs and the British got them instead. They didn't like them, so they gave them back and the US refitted them and redesignated them the P-322 and were used in various flight training roles and fight testing experiments.
Find it kind of funny that WW2OL would give a plane (P-38F) the French never ordered or flew.
Does WW2OL at least model the French P-38 without the counter rotating engines and turbocharger?
ack-ack
The problem with WWIIOL is that it tries to model things that naver came to be, such as the French staying in the war. In order to do this, they use American equipment for the later tiers (one tier represents a period of the war, they can be slowed down by stragetic bombing of factories, and they last about 8 days). So you see French M4A2s, M10s, P-38s, M3A3s, etc...
To be honest, I don't know much about the AdA rides in that game after the D.520 stops being the premier fighter for that air force (H.81 and P-39 take its place). I'm more of an RAF guy.
Though I do know that yes, they did model the correct P-38s. They lack the turbochargers and counter-rotating engines.
Which would be why my ride of choice when the Axis players get the 190A is the Spitfire IX, not the 322.
Most WWIIOL players call the 322 a P-38F for two reasons.
One, when the Americans are added, probably sometime this year, it will be reskinned and recoded as the P-38F. Second, it looks like one.
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Originally posted by Noir
Straffo : On te voit plus sur le forum que online dit moi ^^
Too much work currently + I got sick during 2 week (40° fever during almost a week) + rotator cuff painfull again ...
Yeah I only fly on the forum :(
I expect to be again operational mid march.
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If the italians get 2 planes I don't see why the french shouldnt get 1.
Add the dewotine thing.
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The Polish built their own aircraft as well. So did the Nordic countries. Doesn't mean they played an important role in the large-scale scheme of the war. D.520 may have been "up to par" for 1939, but it was also rare. Most French aircraft were underpowered and outclassed by even the poorest of US rides at the time. At least they weren't open-cockpit biplanes like RAF and Italian forces used.
And the reason the Italians have aircraft in this game is, I think, because they played a major role in several theaters of the conflict.
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D.520 was "up to par" for 1940, not 1939. And we have rarer aircraft already in AH.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Most French aircraft were underpowered and outclassed by even the poorest of US rides at the time.
The USAF in 1939 and 1940 weren't involved in the war so why neglect a plane that was seeing glimpses of the luftwaffe. ;)
I think the plane in question would be a nice addition to the early war planeset.
Bruv
~S~
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Originally posted by Karnak
D.520 was "up to par" for 1940, not 1939. And we have rarer aircraft already in AH.
No kidding... Only 4 110 C4Bs were produced.
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Originally posted by Bruv119
The USAF in 1939 and 1940 weren't involved in the war so why neglect a plane that was seeing glimpses of the luftwaffe. ;)
I think the plane in question would be a nice addition to the early war planeset.
Bruv
~S~
I agree Bruv, but for comparison sake, was the D.520 a great plane like the Hurricane was great, or like the P-40? If it does not have the speed of the P-40, or the firepower of the Hurricane 2C, I don't see it getting much use.
For special events, I want this plane regardless of performance. It adds a dimention of flavor that cannot be duplicated by substituting another airplane.
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Morane :aok
Curtiss Hawk :aok
:cool: :cool: :cool:
btw. I saw both of them fly in Duxford last summer :eek:
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Originally posted by wstpt10
So wrong... The D.520 was very well liked by its pilots, and was used into 1942 by the Vichy government. It could turn with a 109E, and rolled at an amazing rate. The only downsides to it where limited cannon ammo (60 rounds) and a low top speed compared to the 109E (530KMH).
Krusty, the H75 may be slow but it was an exceptional knife fighter.
Oh, and by the way, the Hawk 75 is is P-36.
530KMH = 329mph which is slightly faster than a Hurricane, quite a bit slower than a P-40. Firepower was the same as the 109G's, not nearly as good as the Hurricane, or P-40.
Additionally, this is was from Wikipedia:
Battle of France
The Groupe de Chasse I/3 was the first unit to get the D.520, receiving its first planes in January of 1940. These were unarmed and used for training. In April and May they received 34 production machines, which proved to be very popular with the pilots. In tests against a captured Bf 109E-3 (which didn't develop full power) the D.520 proved to be 20 km/h slower, but had better high speed manoeuvrability. The D.520 matched the turning circle of the Bf 109 but displayed nasty departure characteristics, spinning out of the turn repeatedly during the tests while the Bf 109 owing to its slats could sustain the turn on the edge of the stall easily.
Not the best testimony on turn performance. This plane would be nearly ignored except for in the special events arena. I can see why it has not been developed yet. Not saying it shouldn't, just understand that it is low on the development que.
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Originally posted by TracerX
530KMH = 329mph which is slightly faster than a Hurricane, quite a bit slower than a P-40. Firepower was the same as the 109G's, not nearly as good as the Hurricane, or P-40.
Additionally, this is was from Wikipedia:
Not the best testimony on turn performance. This plane would be nearly ignored except for in the special events arena. I can see why it has not been developed yet. Not saying it shouldn't, just understand that it is low on the development que.
If you want to get nitpicky, the Hispano the D.520 mounted is more powerful than the MG/151 used on 109Gs and 109Fs, it has a higher muzzle velocity, and would be more likely to do significant damage to the target than the 151. On the other hand, the MG/131s that later Gustavs mounted were much more powerful than the 7.5mm guns on the Dewotine, and they were mounted along the centerline, no worrying about convergence.
It would be a fun plane for the early war arena, at least in my opinion.
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I think that it is quite sad only to be intersted by performances, even if it is important...
For your american planes for example, I really prefer your P-40 flown by flying tigers pilots than P-51 in Europe... it's quite easy to chose the best plane. In a simulation I aslo like using planes that weren't the best about performances but that won many victories with great pilots, it's an intersting challenge, more intersting on my mind than destroying noobs in a Corsair. If the only thing important in AH was speed and power there would not be other aircrafts than 109, P51, Ki 84, P47 or Corsair...
I still think that a squadron with D-520 could easely be dangerous for your great planes.
D-520 was not as obsolete as other french planes, I think speed performances weren't so bad, and fire power was intersting. Dewoitine Pilotes managed to destroy many ennemy aircrafts, even if they had not many time, and they didn't lose many of their planes.
Perhaps that's not the way of thinking of everyone, I am above all interested by history, I prefer flying a spanish Polikarpov I-16 against a 109 than a P-51 against japanese zero or fw190. :)
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The Hawk fighter did very wel during the Battle of France being very agile,much more so than the P40,Molders was a victim to a Hawk in this period,it could out manoevre the 109 with ease,the d 520 also performed well in the latter stages of the Battle,later doing well in algeria for the vichy regime.
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Originally posted by Krusty
The Polish built their own aircraft as well. So did the Nordic countries.
How many "Nordic" countries actually were involved in WWII combat operations? That leaves Norway and Finland. Norway defended itself the best it could for a little while with Gladiators from UK. Finnish Air Force fought many years with foreign equipment. In the very end of the Continuation War finns flew a couple sorties with VL Myrskys (a finnish built fighter aircraft) and managed to damage one soviet La-5.
So, the only nordic country air force that actually fought in the WWII flew just couple of its sorties with domestic combat aircraft. Practically all of the combat aircraft of the FiAF were foreign equipment.
So Krusty, do you have some more ferrytales for us?
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wmaker, I couldn't remember which ones had. I know they weren't very important, in the overall scheme of the war.
That's my point. A lot of countries made small-numbers productions of aircraft that had little to no impact on the war. Just because they had them doesn't mean we need them modeled in this game.
EDIT: And Sweden also made quite a few aircraft.
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Originally posted by Krusty
wmaker, I couldn't remember which ones had. I know they weren't very important, in the overall scheme of the war.
That's my point. A lot of countries made small-numbers productions of aircraft that had little to no impact on the war. Just because they had them doesn't mean we need them modeled in this game.
EDIT: And Sweden also made quite a few aircraft.
Your argument is completly flawed Sweden produced more fighter than Germany produced Ta-152.
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Actually your argument is flawed...
I never mentioned the Ta152, of which many hundreds were built (regardless of how many got to the front lines). Nor did I compare rare perk planes to common, planeset-hole-filling-suggestions.
Gee... Argentina made some aircraft as well! They MUST be in the next update, because they were SO vital to the war's outcome, right?
Right? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Mon compatriote, prends les airs avec un P47-D25 aux couleurs Francaises :D
Take the skies with a French P47-D25
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Mais un P-47 ça n'a quand même pas la classe d'un D-520... :(
At least I prefer a Yak-9 of Normandie-Niémen... :)
How could we make american people understand how this great Dewoitine can be important for us ?
D-520 painted by a friend, from another forum :
(http://i11.servimg.com/u/11/12/10/59/dewoit10.jpg)
(c) http://www.flyandrive.com/
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It's over-rated. It got a lot of kills.... against Ju87s and He111s. It was the equivelant of the 190D to the Germans -- too little too late. If you want a representative French aircraft, you should be asking for the M.S. 406.
Why doesn't anybody ask for the 406? Because it was completely outclassed. It was, however, the dominant aircraft in the French Air Force at the time.
EDIT: It would be like this game not having any US aircraft at all, and the most-requested US plane being the P-47M. It had a small role, only one unit (group?) used them, compared to hundreds of units not using them, and it didn't have a major impact on the war.
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I support the D.520 =)
Fits in completely with the Spit.Ia, Bf.109E4, etc. early war set.:aok :aok
*I play wwiiol often so I have alot of stick time in it, fun plane,not much power but its got roll and maneuverability to spare.
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<-------
That is all.
Bronk
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Go flamebait elsewhere, bronk. I hear the BKs are doing something, you might wanna go hump furball's leg or something.
Adding the D.520 would be like adding the P-63. Almost no impact on the war.
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I support adding the Kingcobra as well,
sounds like a fun plane :aok
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Originally posted by Krusty
Adding the D.520 would be like adding the P-63. Almost no impact on the war.
I disagree with what you said, for two reasons :
-- The D520 was also used by Vichy forces in North Africa, for example during the operation "Torch", so it had also a small impact at this time, it was nearly the only aircraft used in North Africa (ms406 also but it was less used after 1940)
Occupation stripes were painted on the D520, even if it was for a pro-fascist government I think it was beautiful :
(http://wp.ftp.krasnet.ru///camms/ar/24/pics/120_1.jpg)
(c) Wings Palette
It was also used by free french forces after liberation of Morocco and Tunisia by allied troops. It had not an impact as other famous fighters, but it played a role for several years.
(http://wp.ftp.krasnet.ru///camms/ar/24/pics/147_2.jpg)
(c) Wings Palette
--Obviously the Ms-406 is more representative of the Battle for France, but as we see how you are criticising the performances of the D-520, it is not possible to imagine being asking for the Morane Saulnier 406. :)
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Originally posted by Krusty
Actually your argument is flawed...
I never mentioned the Ta152, of which many hundreds were built (regardless of how many got to the front lines). Nor did I compare rare perk planes to common, planeset-hole-filling-suggestions.
Gee... Argentina made some aircraft as well! They MUST be in the next update, because they were SO vital to the war's outcome, right?
Right? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Many hundred ? holly crap you failed math class too :D
Adding the D.520 would be like adding the P-63. Almost no impact on the war.
What was the impact of the F4U4 or me262 ? in the case of the later as the german lost...
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typos happen. I am the typo king.
And like I said, quit comparing perk planes to a hole-filling-request-plane. They're asking to fill a hole (lack of French planes), and you're comparing it to rare, barely-saw-combat perk planes. Better to compare it to a P40E, or a P51D, as these were staples of the war.
Mind you, I don't think that hole in the planeset needs filling any more than we need 5 more spit variants. That's just my opinion, though.
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krusty u are so wrong about the d.520 ur conclusions are a joke
(http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/3438/d520la3.jpg)
now krusty open ur eyes and read this info again
Development
Design of the Dewoitine 520 started in November 1936 at the private design firm led by Emile Dewoitine. Trying to address problems in earlier designs, he created a fighter using only the latest techniques and engines. The new design was to be able to reach 520 km/h and became known as the "520". Only months later the firm was conglomerated into one of a number of design-and-manufacturing pools, in this case SNCAM. Still known as the D.520, work on the design continued at the new company.
The prototype D.520 flew on October 2, 1938, powered by the new 890 hp (660 kW) Hispano-Suiza 12Y-21 liquid-cooled engine. The plane managed to reach only 480 km/h in flight tests, much slower than expected. Most of the problem seemed to come from greater than expected drag from the underwing radiators, so these were merged into a single radiator under the fuselage. After minor damage in a landing accident the engine was changed to a newer -29 and included exhaust ejectors for added thrust, along with an adjustable prop. These changes were enough to allow the plane to reach its design speed.
The prototype was followed in 1939 with two airframes with a new sliding canopy and a larger tail unit. These were armed with a 20 mm cannon firing through the propeller spinner (a feature later found on many German and Russian designs) and two 7.5 mm machine guns in small pods under the wing. The third also included a small tail-wheel instead of the original skid. Flight tests went fairly well and a contract for 200 production machines to be powered by the newer -31 engine (later replaced by the -45) was issued in March of 1939. A contract for an additional 600 planes was issued in June reduced to 510 in July.
With the outbreak of war a new contract brought the total to 1280, with the production rate to be 200 machines per month from May 1940. The Aéronautique navale then ordered 120. Another Armée de l'air order in April 1940 brought the total to 2250 and increased quotas to 350 a month.
The first production D.520 flew in November, powered by the 830 hp (620 kW) 12Y-31 and armed with two 7.5 mm machine guns in housings underneath the wings. It had a curved, one-piece windshield and a sliding canopy. The rest of the production machines were delivered with the 930 hp (690 kW) 12Y-45 engine with a new supercharger and a Ratier 3-bladed propeller (a few had the -49 of 910 hp (680 kW)). They were armed with a Hispano-Suiza 404 20 mm cannon firing through the propeller hub and four MAC 1934 7.5 mm machine guns in the wings. The curved, one-piece windshield from the prototypes was replaced with one containing an optically flat panel.
As the first batch of machines rolled out of the production lines, they were found to fail acceptance tests with insufficient top speed and troublesome cooling. Redesigned compressor intakes, a modified cooling circuit and propulsive exhaust pipes proved to be effective remedies for these shortcomings, but as early examples had to be retrofitted with those improvements, the type was not declared combat-worthy until April.
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Operational service
Battle of France
The Groupe de Chasse I/3 was the first unit to get the D.520, receiving its first planes in January of 1940. These were unarmed and used for training. In April and May they received 34 production machines, which proved to be very popular with the pilots. In tests against a captured Bf 109E-3 (which didn't develop full power) the D.520 proved to be 20 km/h slower, but had better high speed manoeuvrability. The D.520 matched the turning circle of the Bf 109 but displayed nasty departure characteristics, spinning out of the turn repeatedly during the tests while the Bf 109 owing to its slats could sustain the turn on the edge of the stall easily.
When Germany invaded France and the Low Countries on May 10, 228 D.520s had been manufactured, but the Armée de l'Air had only accepted 75, as most others had been sent back to the factory to be retrofitted to the new standard. As a result, only GC I/3 was fully equipped with the D.520, with 36 planes. They met the Luftwaffe on May 13, shooting down three Henschel Hs 126s and one Heinkel He 111 without loss. GC II/3, GC III/3, GC III/6 and GC II/7 later completed their conversion to the D.520 and all took part in the Battle of France. A naval unit, the 1st Flotille de Chasse, was also equipped with the D.520. GC II/6 and GC III/7 converted to the D.520 but too late to see action.
By the time of the armistice at the end of June, 437 D.520's had been built and 351 of these had been delivered. In that time they had 108 confirmed kills and 39 probables, losing 54 to enemy action. As French resistance collapsed in the middle of June, GC I/3, II/3, III/3, III/6 and II/7 flew their aircraft to Algeria. Three more, from GC III/7, escaped to Britain and 153 machines remained in France.
Under Vichy
In April 1941 production was started again and in June, 550 were ordered to replace all other single-seat fighters. The plan was to have the D.520 eventually equip a total of 17 Groupes with 442 aircraft, three Aéronavale escadrilles with 37 aircraft each plus 3 training units with 13 aircraft. As per terms of the Armistice with Germany, all improvements were prohibited and planes of the new batch were similar with the ones manufactured one year earlier.
D.520s of GC III/6, II/3 and naval escadrille 1AC faced the allies during the Syria-Lebanon campaign in 1941, where they claimed 31 kills over British and Australian planes, while losing 11 of their own in air combat and 24 to AAA, accidents, and attacks on their airfields.
During Operation Torch, GC III/3 (who was really GC I/3 renamed, as the previous unit with this designation had been disbanded) opposed the Allies over Oran, while Flottile 1F saw some action versus the US Navy over Casablanca. Many planes were destroyed on the ground.
Late and postwar service
In December 1942, as French forces formerly under Vichy had sided with the Allies, there were 153 D.520s left in French hands in North Africa. They flew a few patrols during the Battle of Tunisia, but were considered obsolete, and their radio sets were incompatible with Allied equipment. From early 1943 on, they were relegated to training duties at the fighter school in Meknes, and progressively replaced by Spitfires and P-39s in combat units.
During the liberation of France, a few examples abandoned by the Germans were used by ad hoc units in ground attacks against the isolated German pockets of resistance on the Western coast.
Postwar, those that remained in France were used as trainers, serving in this role until 1953.
Foreign users
As the German forces invaded Vichy's so-called "free zone" in November 1942, they captured 246 D.520s; additionally, a new batch of 130 was built under German occupation. Some were used by the Luftwaffe for training purposes. The Germans also transferred 120 D.520s to Bulgaria and 60 to Italy.
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Foreign users
As the German forces invaded Vichy's so-called "free zone" in November 1942, they captured 246 D.520s; additionally, a new batch of 130 was built under German occupation. Some were used by the Luftwaffe for training purposes. The Germans also transferred 120 D.520s to Bulgaria and 60 to Italy.
Variants
D.521 Hispano-Suiza engine replaced by a Rolls-Royce Merlin, one example built, project cancelled.
D.523 engine upgraded to the 1,100 hp-12Y51 variant. Prototype was on trials in June 1940. Development halted by the armistice.
D.520 DC postwar two-seater conversion.
Markings
Apart from the first prototype and postwar examples, D.520s sported the usual French camouflage of dark blue-grey, khaki, and dark brown with light blue-grey undersurfaces. The camouflage pattern was not standardized. The national markings were the standard light blue-white-red roundels on the wingtips, as well as on the rear fuselage, and the rudder flag.
Specific markings were applied during the Vichy era, consisting in white outlined fuselage roundels with a white fuselage stripe, and from mid-1941 on, the infamous "slave's pajamas" with red and yellow stripes on the engine cowling and tail surfaces.
Preserved examples
Dewoitine D.520 n°408 was restored to flying condition in the 1970s. Painted as n°90 used by the GC I/3 in 1940, it performed at various airshows in Europe, but was destroyed in a fatal crash in 1986. The three remaining D.520s known to exist today are:
n°862 is currently on display at the Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace. It has been repainted as n°277 used by GC III/6 in June 1940.
n°603 is on display at the Conservatoire de l'air et de l'espace d'Aquitaine in Bordeaux-Mérignac.
n°655 is being restored at the naval museum in Rochefort.
Operators
Bulgaria
France
Germany: Luftwaffe
Italy
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Specifications (Dewoitine D.520C.1)
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 8.6 m (28 ft 3 in)
Wingspan: 10.2 m (33 ft 6 in)
Height: 2.57 m (8 ft 5 in)
Wing area: 15.97 m² (172 ft²)
Empty weight: 2,036 kg (4,489 lb)
Loaded weight: 2,676 kg (5,900 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 2,780 kg (6,129 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Hispano-Suiza 12Y-45 liquid-cooled V12 engine, 690 kW (930 hp)
Performance
Maximum speed: 535 km/h (289 knots, 332 mph)
Range: 1,250 km (675 nm, 777 mi)
Service ceiling: 10,000 m (33,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 14.3 m/s (2,820 ft/min)
Wing loading: 167 kg/m² (34.2 lb/ft²)
Power/mass: 257 W/kg (0.156 hp/lb)
Armament
Guns:
1× 20 mm (0.787 in) cannon
4× 7.5 mm (0.295 in) machine guns
References
Danel, R.; Cuny, J.. Docavia n°4: le Dewoitine D.520. Editions Larivière.
Ehrengardt, C. (2004). Les avions français au combat: le Dewoitine D.520. Aéro-Editions.
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Originally posted by Krusty
typos happen. I am the typo king.
And like I said, quit comparing perk planes to a hole-filling-request-plane. They're asking to fill a hole (lack of French planes), and you're comparing it to rare, barely-saw-combat perk planes. Better to compare it to a P40E, or a P51D, as these were staples of the war.
Mind you, I don't think that hole in the planeset needs filling any more than we need 5 more spit variants. That's just my opinion, though.
You can have this opinion , my opinion is not just jingoism as I love all pretty planes (well some more than others :)) and I think the D520 will be a good addition mostly because of that.
Btw I think a Yak3 would find more use in AH than a D520 ,as a D520 would be usefull only in a Storch scenario.
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Originally posted by quintv
I support the D.520 =)
Fits in completely with the Spit.Ia, Bf.109E4, etc. early war set.:aok :aok
*I play wwiiol often so I have alot of stick time in it, fun plane,not much power but its got roll and maneuverability to spare.
Word.
Quint, I've got to catch you in game sometime...
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D.520 aquitted itself well against Bf109Es too, not just He111s and Ju87s.
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Twinboom, posting the entirety of the wikipedia entry does not make you an expert, I'm afraid. [EDIT: To stave off knee-jerk responses, I'm not an expert either]
Only a handful of units had them before the battle for France was over, as compared to the thousand+ M.S.406's in operation at the time. Even wiki claims that it was 20km/h slower than a damaged, captured, underpowered 109E (and we're talking E-1 I'm guessing?). It couldn't turn sharply without spinning out nonstop, and the few that escaped by flying to N. Africa were of no use, as by the time they were incorporated into the allied forces they were obsolete by all standards. After the fall of France they were relegated to training duty by almost everybody that had them (small exceptions being a couple of very small nations that Germany exported them to -- exported them because they were too inferior to LW aircraft to bother pursuing production of).
The D.520 was the closest thing the French had to the spit/109 at the time, but that doesn't make it the equal of either. It was simply the best and most recent desing of the time, and even so, well you draw your own conclusions. Just don't rely only on wikipedia for your info, mate.
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This thread needs pachy, the resident D.520 expert on "another" forum to wtfpwn all the noobs :rofl :rofl
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I've made my points. Whether anybody agrees with me or not is their problem.
The Spitfire it wasn't.
The 109 it wasn't.
The P51 it wasn't.
These were representatives of their respective air forces. The D.520 wasn't representative of the majority of the French Air Force.
Having typed that, I'm done here.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Go flamebait elsewhere, bronk. I hear the BKs are doing something, you might wanna go hump furball's leg or something.
Adding the D.520 would be like adding the P-63. Almost no impact on the war.
Kind of like adding the Ta152?
ack-ack
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to say it played no part is the most ironic statment
i can find alot more info that ive read that blows ur uncanny views outa the water i mean do you ever think or read a book b4 opening your mouth
jesus........................ .....
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It was competative with the Marks of Spits and 109s it was contemporary with, its record in the war and its modeling in other games agree with that.
Do you have any idea at all about what some of the developments were planned down the line and were in prototype stage at the armistice? Had indigenous french development continued (had france not capitulated) its lineage would have very much progressed at the pace of its counterparts. Its is not a non-starter by a long shot.
You seem to personally dislike it for some reason but that is your deal/
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Kind of like adding the Ta152?
ack-ack
*snicker*
Bronk
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Originally posted by TwinBoom
(http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/3438/d520la3.jpg)
What's up with this, and what markings are those?
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What the french guy and TB said.
Its not the fact that it is French that it should be included. The Battle for France (Whilst very short) was a prelude to the Battle of Britain.
Diversity is a key for AH to my knowledge WW20L is the only other online sim that has it and they have too because they are limited to early war stuff.
It would be used in the EW arena and scenario setups. Therefore not a hangar queen.
The French are a very proud nation all the usual mickey taking aside I believe letting them have one tiny plane in respect to all of those men, women and children who would have been slain by the Boche in the Blitzkreig isn't much to ask.
Lets see how many extra French subs may appear just because they get a minor representation.
Viva La France!
Bruv
~S~
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Thanks Bruv119,
Perhaps we are a proud nation, but I think we are above all wanting to remember our history, you may understand this : you, american or british people, want to commemorate those who fought and died at Pearl Harbor or during the Battle of Britain, as we want to commemorate our pilots that fought during this really difficult days of june 1940.
krusty, you say d520 was not representative of french air force, but please read what I had wrote, I'll put it again :
--if we ask a ms406 what will you say ? You are already criticising the performances of the D-520...
--After the french defeat, D-520 is more representative of the french aviation of Vichy in North Africa than ms406.
Perhaps french aviation and whole french army isn't really respected by other nations because of these defeat, but you must know that it wasn't a poor army, they fought as well as they could, it's right that british considered the Armistice as a treason, but the situation after the departure of the english squadron was really difficult.
I think we made all necessary in RAF and VVS squadrons to show our pilots weren-t so bad and wanted to fight again.
Know, we're just totally respecting american; british or russian aviation, but it is quite surprising to see french fighters missing, as punishing for this defeat... :)
At least that's what we can do better in France : be proud in defeat :D :lol
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Kind of like adding the Ta152?
ack-ack
No, kind of like what I said, not what you tried to put into my mouth. Just for clarification, it's kind of like adding the D.520.
Oh, and bronk, try to hold down the snickering when you're fondling BK organs. It's unbecoming. As for Ack-Ack, he really had no reason to post this other than to try to start an argument. After I PMed him privately and asked him not to act like an arse (like the BKs) he quickly forwards my PM to the BKs. So maybe he's next in line after Bronk gets in? I don't want to know how they "recruit" folks...
Sorry, back on topic, stop putting words in my mouth. I never brought the Ta152 into this. If we had NO LW planes at all, whatsoever, and this was the first one ever being added, every last person would stop and say "wtf?? Why do you want to add THAT! It has no place in this game!"
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"By the time of the armistice at the end of June, 437 D.520's had been built and 351 of these had been delivered. In that time they had 108 confirmed kills and 39 probables, losing 54 to enemy action. As French resistance collapsed in the middle of June, GC I/3, II/3, III/3, III/6 and II/7 flew their aircraft to Algeria. Three more from GC III/7 escaped to Britain and 153 machines remained in France."
Ok assuming the probables were actual kills thats nearly a 3-1 kill ratio against the luftwaffe. Had 1 20mm cannon in the prop and 4x 7.5mm machine guns. Not a bad package for the period. A top speed of 332Mph.
Also a wider role in N Africa as Vespasiano mentioned.
I can't see any reason why we could object to having this plane added to fill the gaps in EW. Another little plane is the I-16 that I would like to see here too.
Bruv
~S~
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Someone asked if our ingeneers had planned to make other versions of this plane : the answer is no, but another prototype was being prepared : Dewoitine D-550
Without the quick end of the war, following Dewoitine would have had better performances, but that's only imagination and not reality
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/xplane/d550/d550-1.jpg)
Max Speed supposed : 703km/h, I think it must be around 425mph.
It was destroyed in an allied bombing and never used by Vichy's government.
I agree with you about the I-16, some will say again that it has not its place in the game because of its lack of performances... some spanish and sovietic pilots managed to fly against Messerschmitt 109 so that must be possible in a game. :)
Originally posted by Benny Moore
What's up with this, and what markings are those?
they are Bulgarian Markings. :)
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Originally posted by Krusty
Why do you want to add THAT! It has no place in this game!"
Who say that and why??
For now i dont know any other rules to add a planes than it must be a full production aircraft that saw combat.
The Ta152H, Arado, Me163 and Me262 was more rare.
The performence was as good as the F4F, maybe better and the HurriIa, Spit1a and 109E4 could need some oponents as well.
At least i dont see a reason why the D.520 and other EW planes shouldnt get included.
Greetings,
Knegel
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OT
Once again for those who don't get it.
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Ohh Krusty it's ohh so funny to watch you unhinge over an avitar.
The calling into question of my sexual orientation. :rofl :rofl
That's kinda low on the intelligence scale for a self proclaimed perpetual school boy.
Maybe if you read just one more book you could do better.
On topic.
I am unopposed to any ac that flew during ww2.
Especially the much overlooked early war/pre US involvement
Adds for interesting match ups I think.
Bronk
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Knegel, that wasn't about the D.520. That was hypothetical.
Bronk I never called into question your orientation. I just said (regardless of it) you suck so-and-so to gain acceptance as one of the BKs. Don't know why, as they're one of the worst group of griefers in this so-called community.
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The best fighter plane constructed in France, which was used by the French Air Force during World War II, was the low-wing monoplane Dewoitine D.520 whose series was completed by 1939. In 1936, it was further developed from its predecessor the D 500 by a team due to an announcement from the French designer Emile Dewoitine. At this time, Dewoitine was wrapped up with his company in the governmental SNCA du Midi (Societé Nationale de Constructions Aéronautiques du Midi).
The first of the three prototypes took off on October 1938 with an opened cockpit, powered by a liquid-cooled Hispano-Suiza 12Y-21 engine with 890 PS. It did not leave a good overall impression since it overheated and never attained the goal of reaching a speed of 520 km/h.
Nevertheless, by the beginning of 1939, there were already orders for 200 aircrafts placed before the initial flight of the improved second prototype. There were only slight differences among the three prototypes with regard to the wings, rudder assembly and the cabin hood. The third prototype was equipped with a tail wheel which was not available in other prototypes.
The Dewoitine D.520 had only one substantial disadvantage: when the Germans began their offensive in May 1940, of the 2,320 aircrafts which were ordered (2,200 by the French Air Force, 130 by the Marines) only 36 were delivered; too few to be able to defy the Germans. The French industry completed a total of 437 aircrafts until the armistice on June 25, 1940, of which 351 made it to the front line of battle. The air squadrons of D.520 were able to shoot down 147 German aircrafts while incurring only 85 casualties of their own. The highly maneuverable and versatile fighter airplanes arrived on the scene too late to precipitate a decisive turning point in the war in favor of the French.
The D.520 was originally conceived of as a cantilever low-wing airplane. The wing assembly was a pronounced V-formation and the nose of the aircraft was configured around the engine. The Hispano-Suiza 12Y 45 engine with Szydlowski-loader powered the aircraft. The first aircraft of the series production took off on November 2, 1939. It was powered by a 830 PS-strong Hispano-Suiza 12Y-31 engine, had a curved front window and was armed with two 7.5-mm-MG's which were situated under the wings. The fuselage was approximately 50 cm long after the prototypes and engine cover were altered. Furthermore, there were two additional tanks on the wings and a safety device behind the pilot's seat.
The machines of the second series were powered by stronger 910 PS-Hispano-Suiza 12Y-45 engines and had an electric propeller with three blades. The armament consisted of a 20-mm-cannon, which shot through the propeller hub and four 7.5-mm-MG's in the wings. The curved front window of the first series was replaced by an optical surface that did not distorted images.
After the armistice with France in June 1940, the German authorities allowed the further production of the D.520. The Vichy-Armed Forces utilized the D.520 as a standard fighter in North Africa and Syria. When the Vichy Zone was occupied in November 1942, the Germans requisitioned 411 aircrafts of this model and used them mostly as fighter training aircrafts in the German Luftwaffe. Other aircrafts were distributed to the Bulgarian, Italian and Romanian allies and came to the front lines of battle.
By the end of 1944, the many remaining D.520 aircrafts were demanded back by the Liberated French Armed Forces. These aircrafts were then used again against the withdrawn German units in southern France. A few of the D.520 DC modeled aircrafts (DC for "Double Control") were transformed into two-seater training aircrafts after end of the war and served in small numbers until the beginning of the 1950s. The last D.520 was flown in September 1953.
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Variations of the D.520 were the D.521, which was powered by a Rolls-Royce Merlin III in-line engine with 1,044 PS (768 kW), however, never made it into the series and whose Merlin-engine was traded for a Hispano-Suiza 12Z with 1,200 PS (883 kW) and was then renamed D.524. This project was also not pursued.
There were a total of 905 copies of the series model D.520 constructed with extended fuselage, armoring and stronger wing armament; 437 of which were constructed before the armistice of June 25, 1940 and 468 constructed afterwards. Counting both variations and the three prototypes, the entire production is estimated to be 910 copies.
A D.520 is on display at the Musée de l'Air in Le Bourget in Paris.
The D.520 was Emile Dewoitine's last
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The history of Dewoitine D.520 starts in 1934 when the Staff of the Air Force seeks a substitute in D.510, Dewoitine proposes D.513 but the choice is made on Morane-Saulnier MS.405. Not wanting to remain on this failure, Emile Dewoitine forms in June 1936 a engineering and design department directed by Robert Castello who ends to a project of hunter able to reach 500 km/h, at this point in time Technical Services of the Air Force request a flying plane from 520 km/h. A modified project, indicated D.520 in reference at the required speed, is subjected in January 1937 but it is once again refused.
Its factory having been nationalized and renamed National Société of Aeronautical Engineerings of South (SNCAM), Emile Dewoitine was however an administrator general and it is for this reason that it decided to continue the studies of D.520.
The first of the three prototypes flew for the first time on October 2, 1938 to Toulouse Francazal, controlled by Marcel Doret, motorized by Hispano-Suiza 12Y-21 of 890 HP, but it did not manage to exceed 480 km/h. Following an accident it accepted Hispano-Suiza 12Y.29 with which it reached 825 km/h in piqué. Two other prototypes were built.
D.520 is a single-seat hunter, its fuselage of ovoid section covered with duralumin sheet. The cantilever wing realized of only one part comes to be fixed under the fuselage. The windshield is consisted of the ices “Plywood”, the glass slide backwards. The landing gear is retractable.
The armament comprises a gun of 20 mm HS 404 with charger of 60 blows placed on the engine, like four machine-guns MAC 34 M 39 fed with 675 blows, placed in the wings.
An indicated two-seater version D.520DC (Double Order) was also produced.
A first order of 200 apparatuses had placed on April 17, 1939, followed of another of 600 apparatuses on June 5 which was brought back to 510. To the declaration of war, a new contract carried the total order to 1280 apparatuses. Finally in April 1940 one envisaged a total production of 2240 apparatuses for the Air Force plus 120 for naval Aeronautics.
The production started at the beginning of 1939, the first flying standard appliance in November of the same year.
In 1941 the German authorities allowed the prolongation of the production of D.520, the SNCAM having become the National Company of Aeronautical Engineerings of South-east (SNCASE).
Several projects were not born because of the Occupation:
D.520T with Hispano-Suiza 12Z-89 of 1200 HP.
D.520Z with Hispano-Suiza 12Z of 1600 horses.
D.521 with Rolls-Royce Merlin III of 1030 HP.
D.523 new driving Hispano-suiza 12Y.51 of 1000 horses.
D.524 Hispano-suiza 12Z.89 for the third time.
HD-780, float seaplane equipped with Hispano-Suiza 12Y-51.
The total production of D.520 exceeded the 600 machines.
Some were modified after the war in the two-seaters D.520DC.
D.520 was used fights some by the Air Force in 1940 during the Countryside of France within the Groups of I/3 Hunting, II/3, III/3, III/6, II/7 and engaged against Luftwaffe and Regia Aeronautica. Flotilla AC1 of Naval Aeronautics was also equipped with D.520.
After the defeat the GC I/3, II/3, III/6, II/7 and the flotilla 1AC were stationed in North Africa under the colors of Vichy, however that three D.520 joined Great Britain. Thus D.520 were engaged in Syria against the RAF.
At the time of the invasion of the zone nonoccupied by German, D.520 being were captured there then were used as plane of drive for Luftwaffe, others were implemented by Regia Aeronautica for the drive and hunting, being thus opposed to the allies. Romania and Bulgaria also used it for hunting.
At the end of 1944, German leaving the South-west of France, a group of hunting FFI was created in Tarbes and Toulouse, ordered by Marcel Doret. The Doret Group took part in the combat of the pocket of Royan and the Low register Point as a cover for allied bombers.
The Doret group is dissolved on November 30, 1944 and becomes the G.C. 11/18 “Saintonge”, which yields its D.520 to the G.C.B.1/18 “the Vendée” starting from the second fortnight of February 1945 like with the unit of drive of Toulouse-Francazal.
The last flight of Dewoitine 520 took place on July 13, 1986 in Vannes with the accident which cost the life its pilot, the commander Bove.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Knegel, that wasn't about the D.520. That was hypothetical.
Bronk I never called into question your orientation. I just said (regardless of it) you suck so-and-so to gain acceptance as one of the BKs. Don't know why, as they're one of the worst group of griefers in this so-called community.
Hmm what you said.
Originally posted by Krusty
Oh, and bronk, try to hold down the snickering when you're fondling BK organs.
Nothing about regardless of my orientation.
You are an pampered school boy who has seen little of the real world.
Try and deny it , you can't.
You only now what you read and nothing of how knowledge is used.
You try and sway arguments with grand exaggerations. Then backpedal/spin and rationalize your lame opinion till the tread dies.
You don't need acceptance by the BKs to dislike bullchiters. You just have to dislike the bullchit.
Sorry boieo your a bullchiter.
Bronk
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Oh Bronk, you're a sad sad man. Truly you are. Please, get help. Take a break from the forums if you need to calm down.
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Yet no denial on the prissy pampered school boy, interesting.
The only thing sad here Krusty is you. With your sad attempt at proving the French bird has no place in AH.
I'll bet this bird would give your glorious 202 a run for its money in an MA environment.
Bronk
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This thread delivers.
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Yes, it should be sad not to be able to be talking quietly about french aviation in this thread... :(
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Originally posted by Vespasiano
Yes, it should be sad not to be able to be talking quietly about french aviation in this thread... :(
Vespasiano
I apologize for my exuberant disagreement with the school boi.
His style of urinating on other peoples threads with non facts aggravates me.
I see no reason why this AC shouldn't be added into the early plane set.
Bronk
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There is no reason to quote the virtues of this planes performance. It has very little by almost all standards. I don't care how many German planes it shot down. The only reason to add this plane is for flavor, your wasting your breath to argue on any other point. It is a no brainer to be considered as the first French plane addition along with the M.S.406. It is bound to be a hanger Queen in the MA, but for Special Events and for the French fighter enthusiasts, it is an essential plane. Lets just leave it at that and hope that HT has the time to make it in the near future. A request is noted, it is ok for people to dissent.
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OMG I M P0ASTING IN EPIC THREAD!!!!!11
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There have been requests about the I-16, bipes, PZL's, Yak-1's, Lagg-3's etc.
All would add something to the early war planeset. Well, early to middle, as well as being fine for scenarios.
If you think of the Battle of France up to Dunquerque, it would offer a bigger Spectrum of aircraft than the BoB. You'd have the Hawk, the 109E, (even 109D, not sure), Hurry-I, Spit-I, D520 and Ms406. If the Scenario was to happen in those weeks from the invasion of the Lowlands (10th of May 1940, - same days as the English sneaked Iceland, hehe) untill Dunquerque has fallen, you would also include the Fokker, and perhaps the Gladiator.
Amongst those, the D520 would be one in the same park as the 109E and SpitI, the followers up being Hurricane, Hawk, and the MS406.
(I refer to single engined fighters only)
The MS406 would then fall into the Finnish scenarios (maybe the Hawk could work as a Brewster?), so would the Fokker. The D520 would fall into a N-African scenario as well.
In AH TOD which shall come one day, you start with training, - actually the LW used D-520's in training.
So, I think the promotion is good, but with many other plans, it's probably not on the top of HTC's list.
IMHO, an early war European scenario, - or sequence of them (Poland-France-BoB-Barbarossa) would be one hell of a ride, - all happens in less than 2 years, starts with Bipes, and ends with the 190. But HTC would have to do some 10 aircraft from scratch or close to scratch just to make it nice :(
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Originally posted by Angus
(maybe the Hawk could work as a Brewster?)
No, I think it shouldn't be possibel :
Hawk 75 :
(http://www.smer.cz/vyrobky/detail/841.jpg)
Finish Brewster :
(http://www.acesofww2.com/finland/BuffaloAcesbyStanStokes.jpg)
There are too many differences in order to use the H-75 as a finnish Brewster.
The H-75 could be used simply as a finnish H-75 :)
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I fly the H.75 in another sim which shall not be named (think FOG), and while its a fun plane its glass jaw and RCMG only armament makes the baby jesus cry.
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Originally posted by quintv
I fly the H.75 in another sim which shall not be named (think FOG), and while its a fun plane its glass jaw and RCMG only armament makes the baby jesus cry.
In said unnameable sim it still has 2x mgs mounted in the fuselage, above the engine. Just wait for that poor 110 or 109E to give you a cockpit shot and his day is ruined.
:t
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Maybe if the germans had attacked France in 1941 the french would have had the better planes:
http://avia.russian.ee/air/france/bloch_mb-157.php
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Hi,
1941 the germans also had better planes(109F) and 710km/h seems to be a "bit" optimistic for that radial driven 1200HP plane.
Btw, the D.520 was rather in the lass of the AH Hurri (BoB Hurri), not in that of the Spit1a and 109E4.
Greetings,
Knegel
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Originally posted by Knegel
Hi,
1941 the germans also had better planes(109F) and 710km/h seems to be a "bit" optimistic for that radial driven 1200HP plane.
Btw, the D.520 was rather in the lass of the AH Hurri (BoB Hurri), not in that of the Spit1a and 109E4.
Greetings,
Knegel
Right except you're comparing apple and orange : think D530
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Originally posted by Sombra
Maybe if the germans had attacked France in 1941 the french would have had the better planes
Yes, but that's why they attacked France in 1940 ;)
It's easy to be imaginating things like that :)
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Originally posted by Knegel
Hi,
1941 the germans also had better planes(109F) and 710km/h seems to be a "bit" optimistic for that radial driven 1200HP plane.
Btw, the D.520 was rather in the lass of the AH Hurri (BoB Hurri), not in that of the Spit1a and 109E4.
Greetings,
Knegel
It reads 1268 KW in 8000 metres, which would make 1724hp at 26.230 feet. That is a LOT of power at that altitude, while the drag of a radial goes less in the thin air. My guess is though, that the aircraft would have been heavier once standardized for the airforce, thereby slower.
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Yep Angus, you be right, i did overview the kW, thought its HP!
But anyway, i doubt they had such a engine, if yes, the germans whould have been happy to copy it. 1726HP in 8000m would have been the solution of all the problems in 1943/44.
Straffo, wh y do i compare apples and oranges?
We have the BoB Hurri, Spit, 109E4 and 110C4 and you wanna have the D.520, not the 530, right?
We would need the pre BoB Hurri and Spit(no constant speed prop) and the 109E1 + early E3(lower rated alt etc) to have the fitting oponents and wingi planes.
There is a not to smal step between BoF and BoB.
Greetings,
Knegel
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Yup.
All those changes. Like BoB introduced the Spit with CS prop and 100 oct fuel, a long way from the 1939 Spit. As well as the Mk II, and one squadron of cannon armed ones (based at Rochford I think)
Wasn't the LW also using 109D's in some numbers at the BoF?
As for that Bloch, wouldn't that engine give a similar yeald to a BMW radial??
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Hi,
the BMW801 never did reach such a power in high alt. 1685PS in 5800m was max and this was already with the C3 injection and "Erhöhte Ladedruck", introduced in summer 1944, but still the power decreased much above 6000m. Only the GM1 injection gave more power on high alt, but nothing close to 1726HP.
Greetings,
Knegel
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Originally posted by Knegel
Straffo, wh y do i compare apples and oranges?
As far as I know the E4 was not much used before BoB
You covered it in your post :)
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Anyone who thinks the D.520 can't stand up to the Bf.109E4 is free to use my account in wwiiol to test such theories.
Send me a PM for my account details.
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I always thougth that the BMW eventually got to 1800 or even 2000 ps.
Maybe been listening too much to those 190 geeks..:huh
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Hi,
it always depends to the flightmodel, but iam pretty sure with RL planes the D520 would have had real trouble vs a not suprised E4 with a pilot who know to use its plane.
Of course also a HurriI1, I-16 and D520 could shoot down a 109E4, but in general they was outclassed, the D520 probably even more than the BoB Hurri, cause it wasnt able to outturn the 109E4, like the Hurri, it had nothing important what it could do better, but some things where it was less good.
As i wrote before, the engine was the drawback of the D520 and already vs the 109E1 and E3 it was in trouble.
btw, do anyone have a powercurve for the engine and times to overheat etc??
Greetings,
Knegel
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Originally posted by straffo
As far as I know the E4 was not much used before BoB
You covered it in your post :)
If it did, it's use was limited. There were Doras, some of which had the early MG/FF (15mm) firing through the prop spinner like F, G, and K models. Others packed a mean four BB guns.
Kne, the Dewo was loved by its pilots. That does a lot more to convince me that they were good aircraft than numbers alone.
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In real life planes with pure speed disadvantages still faired well due to the type of combat that took place, it wasn't a gaming arena with people zooming around trying to get a high score, the objective was to get in and fight the enemy. It has a wicked roll rate as compared to the Emils (read; its maneuverable as hell), packed a very effective centreline cannon, and its zomg dweeb stall turn wasn't clearly worse.
We have actual combat records of how the plane faired, and yet you tell us what would have happened in RL. :rofl :rofl
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"Anyone who thinks the D.520 can't stand up to the Bf.109E4 is free to use my account in wwiiol to test such theories."
I doubt that Dewo in AH would be like the one in WW2OL. The test actually says that the Dewo could match the turn of 109 with a nasty departure if pulled any tighter. In WW2OL the Dewo beats the 109E4 easily in turning contest. And the roll rate description is very vague. It was probably better that that of 109E but how much actually. The Dewo's wing does not seem to have such features that would make it phenomenal but I'm ready to believe it was "good" in rolling.
For my part I support having any early French (or French-used) fighter in AH.
Otherwise we would need to go to Korea-era to get better and faster planes... :p
This is a WW2 era simulation and I think those French planes fit the description very well.
-C+
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Originally posted by Charge
"Anyone who thinks the D.520 can't stand up to the Bf.109E4 is free to use my account in wwiiol to test such theories."
I doubt that Dewo in AH would be like the one in WW2OL. The test actually says that the Dewo could match the turn of 109 with a nasty departure if pulled any tighter. In WW2OL the Dewo beats the 109E4 easily in turning contest. And the roll rate description is very vague. It was probably better that that of 109E but how much actually. The Dewo's wing does not seem to have such features that would make it phenomenal but I'm ready to believe it was "good" in rolling.
For my part I support having any early French (or French-used) fighter in AH.
Otherwise we would need to go to Korea-era to get better and faster planes... :p
This is a WW2 era simulation and I think those French planes fit the description very well.
-C+
You want a description of how it rolls?
Do a roll in a 190.
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Originally posted by Charge
[B The Dewo's wing does not seem to have such features that would make it phenomenal but I'm ready to believe it was "good" in rolling. [/B]
What would those features be?
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"You want a description of how it rolls?"
No thx. I have flown it in WW2OL. I've been there it since 2002.
" What would those features be?"
More optimal aspect ratio so the wing should be a bit shorter, the aileron should extend to the tip and be preferably of Frise type, the wingtip should be more rectangular instead of rounded and I think it would not hurt if there were some wash-out to keep the ailerons in more optimal angle during flight. But most of all the wing and aileron need to be stiff which is hard to accomplish if the wing is long and thin without advanced structures or weight gain.
This does not mean that all these features should be present but some of them are more strong than others to effect the roll qualities. E.g. the Corsair was made in tests into a better roller with different aileron designs and because it already had a strong wing. The clipped wing Spit was not better because of shortened wing span itself but because the aileron placement became more optimal. Not much could be done to wing flexing which still ruined the roll rate in high speeds.
More info is available in NACA 868 document.
-C+
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Originally posted by Charge
"You want a description of how it rolls?"
No thx. I have flown it in WW2OL. I've been there it since 2002.
As?
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It would be great to see the French represented in this game, the dewo stands out as the best candidate imo. Very nice plane indeed and certainly capable of looking after itself.
That aside, performance doesn't necessarily have to be the sole consideration. I'm sure there are many enthusiasts who just like the variety of different aircraft and would love the chance to fly lesser known birds.
Representing or 'honouring' France for the early part of the war would be a good thing and would only add to the nice variety that is already on offer....and I don't mean that to come across as charitable or condescending, it would be very well deserved and the H75 and D520 can certainly fill a role in the early war period.
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Originally posted by quintv
In real life planes with pure speed disadvantages still faired well due to the type of combat that took place, it wasn't a gaming arena with people zooming around trying to get a high score, the objective was to get in and fight the enemy. It has a wicked roll rate as compared to the Emils (read; its maneuverable as hell), packed a very effective centreline cannon, and its zomg dweeb stall turn wasn't clearly worse.
We have actual combat records of how the plane faired, and yet you tell us what would have happened in RL. :rofl :rofl
Hi,
afaik exact what i wrote did happen. On even therms the D520 was outclassed by the 109´s, what dont exclude that it could shoot down a 109.
In real life there was only a few exceptions where the more slow planes could fair well for longer time, but then the pilot skill or a constant tactical advantage made the different. In WWII only know two of such examples, the combat over finnland, where the tactical skill of the finnish pilots made the different and the Hurris while BoB, which had the radar to bring them to the best tactical position.
According to what i did read, while tests the D520 could just turn with the 109E(the crashed one with damaged engine??), but with a bad stall character, the 109E could outclimb it and the 109E was faster and had a higher service ceiling. Also the firepower of the E4 was more big.
Where please is the advantage of the D520??
At what speeds was the roll better? I guess at highspeed, otherwise the 109E was rather good in rolling.
I absolutly believe the pilots did like this plane, which was, next to the Hawk75, the only real modern fighter in france, but also the german pilots, same like the hurri pilots and spit pilots did like their planes.
If it comes to flight datas, which shal get "copied" into the gameengine, the numbers and the testresults are most important and no matter how happy the pilots was to have a at least somewhat comparable performing plane, it is not the same class, like the E4. If someone would model it like that, he simply made a mistake.
No engeener can overcome the physical law, the D520 was more heavy, had less power and had a bit smaler wings, but a higher wingspan.
it had NO significant advantage that i would know of(do it had fuel injection??)
Nevertheless its not a bad performing plane and for sure help to bring some more EW fun to AH and iam looking forward to use it.
Greetings,
Knegel
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Originally posted by quintv
Anyone who thinks the D.520 can't stand up to the Bf.109E4 is free to use my account in wwiiol to test such theories.
Send me a PM for my account details.
No offense but the flight model in WW20L isn't accurate enough to give an accurate portrayel of the match up between these two planes.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by ward88
It would be great to see the French represented in this game, the dewo stands out as the best candidate imo. Very nice plane indeed and certainly capable of looking after itself.
That aside, performance doesn't necessarily have to be the sole consideration. I'm sure there are many enthusiasts who just like the variety of different aircraft and would love the chance to fly lesser known birds.
Representing or 'honouring' France for the early part of the war would be a good thing and would only add to the nice variety that is already on offer....and I don't mean that to come across as charitable or condescending, it would be very well deserved and the H75 and D520 can certainly fill a role in the early war period.
Agreed.
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Originally posted by ward88
It would be great to see the French represented in this game, the dewo stands out as the best candidate imo. Very nice plane indeed and certainly capable of looking after itself.
That aside, performance doesn't necessarily have to be the sole consideration. I'm sure there are many enthusiasts who just like the variety of different aircraft and would love the chance to fly lesser known birds.
Representing or 'honouring' France for the early part of the war would be a good thing and would only add to the nice variety that is already on offer....and I don't mean that to come across as charitable or condescending, it would be very well deserved and the H75 and D520 can certainly fill a role in the early war period.
Very kind post, thank you.
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Originally posted by Knegel
Hi,
afaik exact what i wrote did happen. On even therms the D520 was outclassed by the 109´s, what dont exclude that it could shoot down a 109.
In real life there was only a few exceptions where the more slow planes could fair well for longer time, but then the pilot skill or a constant tactical advantage made the different. In WWII only know two of such examples, the combat over finnland, where the tactical skill of the finnish pilots made the different and the Hurris while BoB, which had the radar to bring them to the best tactical position.
According to what i did read, while tests the D520 could just turn with the 109E(the crashed one with damaged engine??), but with a bad stall character, the 109E could outclimb it and the 109E was faster and had a higher service ceiling. Also the firepower of the E4 was more big.
Where please is the advantage of the D520??
At what speeds was the roll better? I guess at highspeed, otherwise the 109E was rather good in rolling.
I absolutly believe the pilots did like this plane, which was, next to the Hawk75, the only real modern fighter in france, but also the german pilots, same like the hurri pilots and spit pilots did like their planes.
If it comes to flight datas, which shal get "copied" into the gameengine, the numbers and the testresults are most important and no matter how happy the pilots was to have a at least somewhat comparable performing plane, it is not the same class, like the E4. If someone would model it like that, he simply made a mistake.
No engeener can overcome the physical law, the D520 was more heavy, had less power and had a bit smaler wings, but a higher wingspan.
it had NO significant advantage that i would know of(do it had fuel injection??)
Nevertheless its not a bad performing plane and for sure help to bring some more EW fun to AH and iam looking forward to use it.
Greetings,
Knegel
Actually the french did well vs the germans in combat. The biggest issue was moral. Those units that fought did well. The 75's in particular more then held there own. The 1st air combat between the french and germmans saw 109E's of 1/JG53 clash with Hawk 75's of GC II/4. Werner Molders was shot down in that engagment. A few month later Hannes Gentzen led I/ZG2 (in 109's) on a bounce of a french recon plane escorted by 75's. 4 109s went down and 4 were badly damaged despite the germans having alt experience & 3 to 1 numerical advantage. French lose was plane forced down but repairable.
Molders was shot down a second time and captured prior to frances capitualtion.
All in all those french units that fought more then held there own. The hawk 75 would be a formidable early war plane very capable of holding it's own. The D520 stayed in service through 1944 and was still being flown in combat by the axis. All in all the french did very well, the army lost the war for the french....not the airforce.
French victory claims were not especially strict so claims were higher then german loses...still overall the french actually inflicted significant loses...
French Aces (39-8/40) (http://math.fce.vutbr.cz/safarik/ACES/aces1/france-1939-1940.html)
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According to what i did read, while tests the D520 could just turn with the 109E(the crashed one with damaged engine??), but with a bad stall character, the 109E could outclimb it and the 109E was faster and had a higher service ceiling.
The tested Emil was WkNr 1304, a very early production E-3. It had made an emergency landing in France in November 1939. It was overhauled and test-flown on its own, then in mockup fights versus many French types.
No engeener can overcome the physical law, the D520 was more heavy, had less power and had a bit smaler wings, but a higher wingspan.
On the weight issue, we should agree first on what's the Emil's weight, because sources vary greatly. A German document I have seen says the typical loaded take-off weight (with fuel, ammo etc.) for an early, unarmoured E-3 would have been around 2610 kg. I suppose that in Spring 1940, they had added some armour, so it would have been a bit heavier, probably slightly lighter than the D.520's 2675 kg, but not that much. However, the French test report on WkNr 1304 says it was only 2540 kg loaded, which is inconsistent with other sources...
On the power issue, you have to research a bit. The DB601 has an excellent WEP capability, giving much more extra power than the Hispano's. But its continuous power is not that impressive. At altitude, the DB601A-1's 30-minute continuous setting is 960 metric hp versus 920 for the 12Y45 (continuous setting). The bigger difference is at lower altitudes, where the DB is much better, whereas the HS's Szydlowski compressor settles the differences at the highest altitudes.
do it had fuel injection??
No.
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Btw not having fuel injection doesn't imply fuel starvation àla hurrycan
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lol YAY Pachy is here.
Who told you? was it wstpt?
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I did :)
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"At altitude, the DB601A-1's 30-minute continuous setting is 960 metric hp versus 920 for the 12Y45 (continuous setting). The bigger difference is at lower altitudes, where the DB is much better, whereas the HS's Szydlowski compressor settles the differences at the highest altitudes."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano-Suiza_12Y
http://enginehistory.org/TM/htm/tmv5n1.htm
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930081638_1993081638.pdf
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Lets ponder a little more on all these little things.
1. Technical.
IMHO, there is not much to choose between the early 109's (including the captured 109, - btw the weight difference between that and what is documented isn't really that much). The 109 is the more powerful bird, bit still in the main Ballpark. The DW would probably have zoomed and dived okay, rolled better, and turned roughly the same. Climb probably less, firepower similar. (More firepower than a 109F).
It would be interesting to see some more data, but just getting good data on the 109E is getting troublesome!
2. Historical.
Although the Battle of France and the Lowlands was quickly over, it was costly for the LW. Numbers vary very much though. Normally it goes to 1000+, but it's a foggy area. Do numbers include Lowlands or just France, do they include Dunquerque (Just those are debated as today). But anyway, in those rough 4 weeks from May 10th to June 10th, a 1000 aircraft loss was a higher loss rate than in the BoB. (NB, there were lots of transport casualties, also many from flak, unlike the BoB which was mostly air-to-air).
So, the D520 was flown and fought in, and faired reasonably well, and not bad at all (if not even better) than other types at the time.
3 Simulated.
The crew of AH could IMHO cook up a reasonably well modelled D520. That is way above the FM of WW2OL. So, with some fighting, I tend to think that the 109E would have trouble with it. There is trouble with the Hurry1 and Spit1 as well. Anyway, well matched fighters usually make the fighting most funny!
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Originally posted by quintv
lol YAY Pachy is here.
Who told you? was it wstpt?
Not I, he just showed up.
Mention the word Dewotine and Pachy zeros in.
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Originally posted by Pachy
The tested Emil was WkNr 1304, a very early production E-3. It had made an emergency landing in France in November 1939. It was overhauled and test-flown on its own, then in mockup fights versus many French types.
On the weight issue, we should agree first on what's the Emil's weight, because sources vary greatly. A German document I have seen says the typical loaded take-off weight (with fuel, ammo etc.) for an early, unarmoured E-3 would have been around 2610 kg. I suppose that in Spring 1940, they had added some armour, so it would have been a bit heavier, probably slightly lighter than the D.520's 2675 kg, but not that much. However, the French test report on WkNr 1304 says it was only 2540 kg loaded, which is inconsistent with other sources...
On the power issue, you have to research a bit. The DB601 has an excellent WEP capability, giving much more extra power than the Hispano's. But its continuous power is not that impressive. At altitude, the DB601A-1's 30-minute continuous setting is 960 metric hp versus 920 for the 12Y45 (continuous setting). The bigger difference is at lower altitudes, where the DB is much better, whereas the HS's Szydlowski compressor settles the differences at the highest altitudes.
No.
Hi,
the E3 had 2610kg, while the E4 got the new plating and had 2650kg. The testweight was probably recalculated to a smaler fuelload or it did miss ammo. Nevertheless, the testdatas show that the engine wasnt ok anymore after some flights, before they did use the plane for tests fights.
Otherwise there is nothing new, the E4 had more power, even with the 30min setting and it was more light and it had a better stall behaviour and even the damaged tested E3 had a similar turn.
The rather high losses of the LW during the BoF is a normal result of the Blitzkrieg tactic, where the airfiorce got send into combat often in tactical disadvantage in favour to a successfull ground support, the careless behaviour of the LW pilots after their experiences in Poland and Norway also played a role. The russian airforce did suffer the same problem, same like the RAF in the desert and in france(how many Blenheims got massacred while trying to destroy some bridges??).
If you look to the Hawk75 datas, you will see that its engine wasnt bad and although it was more heavy again, it had a rather good climb. From low to medium altitude the Hawk75 had similar or better performence than the BoB Hurri 1a, not so the D520, though above 4000m the Hawk lost much, while the D520 started to overcome it.
btw, for now dont saw someone writing here the french pilots didnt do well, so i dont understand why some always jump into a defending position.
Like like with the FAF, although they had great success vs the russian airforce, this dont make the performence of their planes better.
Greetings,
Knegel
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This weight difference accounts to 1.5% roughly, 40 kg's, which is less a difference than between our Au-pair and my wife. :D
(on a scale of 5000 lbs + that is nothing)
As for the BoB, the LW changed their tactics several times, and were for much of the time NOT at disadvantage (the RAF had a hard time getting into the same altitude in time), - but the LW had however never ran into an enemy with that many aircraft of similar quality as well as a good network. The tactic was not to favour a good ground support (since there was any), - basically the BoB was intended to break the RAF and thereby the British well enough to either get them standing down, or get promptly invaded.
And, the bridge bombing RAF aircraft that got busted...were Fairey Battle. Obsolete....very much so!
BTW, do you have some Curtiss data to post?
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"At altitude, the DB601A-1's 30-minute continuous setting is 960 metric hp versus 920 for the 12Y45 (continuous setting)."
At 5km?
"The bigger difference is at lower altitudes, where the DB is much better, whereas the HS's Szydlowski compressor settles the differences at the highest altitudes."
There shouldn't be big differences caused by other than the higher HP of DB601. Higher up the "second stage" of Szydlowski comp probably does make a difference.
* DB601A-1
Up to 1,100 PS (809 kW) at sea-level at 2,400 rpm, up to 1,020 PS (750 kW) at 2,400 rpm and 4.5 km altitude, B4 fuel
From wiki, well maybe it is right...
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Ed.
DB601Aa
# Power output:
* 865 kW (1,175 PS - 1,160 hp) at 2,500 rpm for takeoff
* 735 kW (1,000 PS - 985 hp) at 2,400 rpm for max continuous
E-3 had DB601Aa
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If you look to the Hawk75 datas, you will see that its engine wasnt bad and although it was more heavy again, it had a rather good climb.
I think the H-75 is a bit overestimated, because published performance figures are for a plane with less equipment that the typical French configuration. Once you realize that the real-life take-off weight was over 2800 kg, it's starting to look less attractive. Additionally, from what I've heard the higher power settings of later P&W-engined variants (A-2 and A-3) required 100-octane fuel which was not issued to French units flying the H-75. But at least the Curtiss was reliable and easy to maintain...
Up to 1,100 PS (809 kW) at sea-level at 2,400 rpm
Yes, but this is the 1-minute take-off power setting, it is not very much significant for technical comparisons in combat environment.
up to 1,020 PS (750 kW) at 2,400 rpm and 4.5 km altitude, B4 fuel
This is the 5-minute WEP setting.
Regarding the positive pilot's outlook on the D.520, one has to realize that most converted from the MS.406 that was very unreliable and performed below official figures. The D.520 did work generally fine, which certainly helped with its popularity :)
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BTW, the D520 may have racked up most of it's flying hours as an advanced trainer for the LW.
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French bombers and Fighters of WW2. Not asking for these, though a few I would love to see, just showing the different variety of French aircraft during Frances time in WW2.
Fighters/Attackers:
Bloch MB.151/152
Breguet Br.691/693 (Would be a nice assault aircraft for EW)
Caudron C.714 Cyclone (Used by Polish pilots who fought for France)
Hawk 75A
Dewoitine D.520
Loire-Nieuport LN-40 (French navy carrier-born aircraft)
Morane-Saulnier MS.405/406
Potez 63.11
Potez 630, 631, 632, 633 B2, 635 CN2
Vought-Sikorsky SB2U Vindicator (V-156F callsign for France)
Bombers:
Amiot 143
Amiot 354 (would love to see this one in AH)
Bloch MB.200
Bloch MB. 174/5 (Reccon bomber saw limited action)
Farman F.222/223 (First aircraft to bomb Berlin)
Liore Et Olivier LeO 451 (said to be the best bomber in service for France during BoF.)
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Originally posted by Pachy
I think the H-75 is a bit overestimated, because published performance figures are for a plane with less equipment that the typical French configuration. Once you realize that the real-life take-off weight was over 2800 kg, it's starting to look less attractive. Additionally, from what I've heard the higher power settings of later P&W-engined variants (A-2 and A-3) required 100-octane fuel which was not issued to French units flying the H-75. But at least the Curtiss was reliable and easy to maintain...
Yes, but this is the 1-minute take-off power setting, it is not very much significant for technical comparisons in combat environment.
This is the 5-minute WEP setting.
Regarding the positive pilot's outlook on the D.520, one has to realize that most converted from the MS.406 that was very unreliable and performed below official figures. The D.520 did work generally fine, which certainly helped with its popularity :)
Hi,
the Hawk75 with 100octan was as good as the Spit and 109E up to 4000m, the French Hawk datas show that it was very similar to the BoB Hurri1a up to 4000m.
There was a early DB601A-1 and a late DB601A-1 and a DB601Aa, the early(BoF?) A-1 has 1020PS 5min @ 4,2km, the late A-1 has 1020Ps 5min @ 4,5km, the Aa had 1100PS @ 3,7km.
While the BoF probably the early A-1 got used, while the BoB E-3 and E-4 had the late A-1 and the Aa, though its not entirely clear when and why the LW did choose the A-1 over the Aa(or the other way around).
Greetings,
Knegel
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"the Hawk75 with 100octan was as good as the Spit and 109E up to 4000m, the French Hawk datas show that it was very similar to the BoB Hurri1a up to 4000m."
But they ran it on 87 octs in the BoF, AFAIK....
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Knegel, was not the Aa an export engine? Would think the Germans put the Aa in their 109s because of production shortfalls of the A engine. ???
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Originally posted by Angus
"the Hawk75 with 100octan was as good as the Spit and 109E up to 4000m, the French Hawk datas show that it was very similar to the BoB Hurri1a up to 4000m."
But they ran it on 87 octs in the BoF, AFAIK....
Additionally, the French CEMA data was obtained with a plane approximately 200 kg lighter than the typical combat configuration, and without the extra drag provided by later applied camo paint.
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Hi Milo,
afaik Butch told that both engines got used by the LW, actually i still dont know the exact different, cause next to the power datas both engines show the same values.
I think the decission to sell the 109 with a better engine than the own airforce got stopped with the outbreak of the war. They introduced the DB601N while BoB, so i doubt they did sell the Aa´s they had.
Angus,
thats why i made the different between the 100octan Hawk and the "french" Hawk, which dont had 100octan fuel.
Pachy,
the datas of the Hawk are still as good as that of the Hurri1a while BoB, below 4000m alt, where the MerlinIII lost much power.
Greetings,
Knegel
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About the performance of the Hawk75A,
The French CEMA tested H-75 A-1:n with a take off weight of 2680kg. In a climb test they reported a peak climb of 20m/s. That simply isn't physically possible. Considering the weight, with SC-G or SC3-G engines the best possible peak climb could have been 17m/s.
In finnish flight tests there is no weights mentioned but most probably they were tested with normal full takeoff weight around 3000kg. In these tests the peak climb rate was 13-14m/s. With 2680kg weight it would have been around 15-16m/s. Two subtypes, A-2 and A-6, were involved in these tests
(A-6 had had its engine changed to Twin Wasp).
In french testing with Twin Wasp SC-G they achieved top speeds of 490km/h at 4000m and 415km/h on the deck. In Finland the best level speed on the deck achieved in testing was 429km/h (CUw-551). With CUw-557 the top speed at 1500m was 425km/h. With CU-572 (still Twin Wasp powered) the deck speed was even less at around 415km/h and top speed was found from 3000m being slightly under 440km/h.
These values were flown with 87-octane fuel.
In Finland there were lot of discussion about how far from the manufacture specifications the performance was. Even though the Curtiss' own numbers were flown with S3C3-G -engine and with 100-octane fuel, 520km/h at 4650m still sounds very optimistic.
In England A & AEE tested A-4 subtype and it achieved 486km/h at 4300m. The peak climb with 2870kg weight was 13.2m/s.
English pilots did mock combats with the Hawk against the Spitfire (presumably Mk.I) changing pilots back and fourth between fights. When Spitfire attacked a diving Hawk (speed of aboth around 500-650km/h) the Hawk pilot could evade very effectively by rolling. At sppeds above 600km/h Hawk pilot could still fully deflect the ailerons. In Spitfire the same pilots could only make 1/4 - 1/5 of the deflection. When Spitfire attacked the Hawk the Hawk could turn inside the Spitfire and stay there until Spitfire chose to use its speed to disengage. In turning combat at 400km/h speeds Hawk was clearly better. The visibility from the Hawks cockpit was also better.
Source: Jukka Raunio's LENTÄJÄN NÄKÖKULMA II (Pilots Viewvpoint II)
EDIT/Just want to add that in Finland Brewster was considered overall to be the better fighter aircraft. It had very similar top spped as the Cyclone-Hawk and was more maneuverable./EDIT
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Yikes stats and stats and stats....
Should there be a French plane in AH and should it be a D520? Why not...it certainly wouldn't hurt anyone...
but alas, if it doesn't happen we Frenchmen can still do what the French did in the real war...kept fighting and got down with O.P.P.
(Other Peoples Planes)
You can fly Spitfires like the Free French squadrons in England
or Hurricanes like the FF in Africa
They also flew P-40s in Africa
The French flew Tempests, P-47s, P-38s and Soviet planes.
You can still get a French historical perspective and play AH...
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D520 IMHO yes.
It's just not on the absolute top of the wishlist, and being a relatively slow-end MA bird, it might become a hangar queen. But if there is an early-war batch of aircraft coming, it's a must! And I certainly hope there will one day be a 1940 Scenario, or even 1939-1940.
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Originally posted by Wmaker
In finnish flight tests there is no weights mentioned but most probably they were tested with normal full takeoff weight around 3000kg.
My understanding is that the Finns flew combat missions with the auxiliary rear fuselage fuel tank filled whereas this was prohibited in French service because of stability problems.
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Originally posted by Pachy
My understanding is that the Finns flew combat missions with the auxiliary rear fuselage fuel tank filled whereas this was prohibited in French service because of stability problems.
Actually finns also usually left the fuselage tank empty when flying combat sorties. But FiAF usually tested its fighters with full fuel load and ammo.
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Squadron/Signal has an InAction book out on French fighters, #180.
ISBN 0-8947-440-6
They also have one on French bombers.
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So did Hawk have two fuselage tanks? Main and aux?
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/hallinportti2002/CU_pa_tankki.jpg
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Squadron/Signal has an InAction book out on French fighters, #180.
ISBN 0-8947-440-6
They also have one on French bombers.
They're not that good, particularly the one on bombers has many technical errors.
So did Hawk have two fuselage tanks? Main and aux?
Out of memory there were two tanks in the inner wings and belly, basically taking all space between the landing gear wells, and one rear fuselage tank behind the pilot.
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature...U_pa_tankki.jpg
You can see these preserved tanks are coated with some self-sealing material which is possibly some kind of Semape/Superflexit. Many French H-75s were so upgraded in early 1940.
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I know Pachy but better than nothing and cheap($$$).