Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: wstpt10 on March 08, 2007, 06:21:53 PM
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Well, if you can't tell by the post count and join date, I'm rather new to this game...
Something that I have noticed happening a lot when I get in close for a kill is that the guy I'm targeting is jinking along the vertical axis at an impossible rate. The bugger is really all over the place! Is this some sort of lag issue, or a rather a-historic tactic?
Thanks
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lag if he's jumping back and forth or warping and you can jink your plane into some crazy moves, after all it's a game.
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Originally posted by whiteman
lag if he's jumping back and forth or warping and you can jink your plane into some crazy moves, after all it's a game.
Well, he isn't warping. Just using those elevators in a manner that would make any normal human being puke all over the instrument panel.
This is the only game I have seen this done in. Weird...
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i'm quite new myself and have seen some stuff that would break a person's neck.
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Meh, I'll just have to get used to it. Normally it doesn't save them from the Hispanos I'm packin', so it isn't a big deal.
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yea it's may save them the first pass but i'm not gunna hit the brakes, i'll just swing back if i need to.
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~the term you are looking for is 'stick stirring dweebs'
most often a tactic of the 190D and P51 timid pilots when they lose thier alt advantage and have no clue what to do next..
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what I find is their stick stiring has a predictable pattern after awhile, and all though it is fustrating eventually you learn to shoot were they are not and have them jink into your rounds..:D
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
~the term you are looking for is 'stick stirring dweebs'
most often a tactic of the 190D and P51 timid pilots when they lose thier alt advantage and have no clue what to do next..
I resemble that remark sir :D
although I never fly the 190
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The worst form of stick stirring occurs in Warbirds. Over there, pilots can make their planes flop around like fish out of water. You can even get a trainer to give you lessons on how to do it.
That kind of nonsense (or gaming the game) is much harder to do in Aces High because of the flight model, which is a really good thing. Still, there are some talented jinkers in Aces High, but I doubt that what I see here is anywhere near the craziness that happens in Warbirds. I only saw one fellow in Aces High who could do that extreme fish-flopping, and he was a self-acknowledged cheater who could also make his plane fly like an erratic butterfly. I met him in the Training Arena, once, and never saw him again. I think HTC catches up with those twits pretty quick.
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What Airscrew said....ditto. Just let'em stir and don't try to glue on to them.
EH?!!!!....my old nemesis ;)
Kinda missed ya:)
RTR
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There are guys that stick stir but that's obvious maneuvers. Flipperty over, pull to one side, negative turn and flappady back.
I think you maybe referring to some of the mouse players. They look like a jumping jack with no head room. Kinda fly straight but the plane bobs up and down rapeedo.... well at least I think it's mouse players:eek:
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Originally posted by wstpt10
Well, he isn't warping. Just using those elevators in a manner that would make any normal human being puke all over the instrument panel.
This is the only game I have seen this done in. Weird...
Also remember that because its a game and blackouts are only simulated.
You are able to pull the kind of moves that would make a normal human being puke. Or wear down from the prolonged effects of such moves.
without actuallly puking ,blacking out, or being worn down from such moves.
Hell you cant even get worn out from normal moves like one would have
Therefore you will always see stunts pulled you would probably rarely if ever witness IRL
At least to the repeated and prolonged extent you see them here.
the one thing you wont see is the effects of pilot fatigue.
Might be nice though. if they could somehow model it in.
The longer and more often you perform hard manuvers. the more tired the pilot gets.
the trick with dealing with the stick stirrers. that is the ones who seem to want to bounce their planes in all different directions at the same time is just to be patient and stay behind them. and chuckle at their stupidity. They eventually level out. or crash
Sometimes if you fire right into the center of their axis you can still nail em as often the plane looks like its moving from side to side and up and down when all they are really doing is gyrating.
the center of the plane stays in the same place
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Originally posted by LYNX
There are guys that stick stir but that's obvious maneuvers. Flipperty over, pull to one side, negative turn and flappady back.
I think you maybe referring to some of the mouse players. They look like a jumping jack with no head room. Kinda fly straight but the plane bobs up and down rapeedo.... well at least I think it's mouse players:eek:
I've often wondered why they never get the "don't move the controls so rapidly" error messege (or however it's stated). You may be on to something with your rodent theory.
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Ive seen guys do this. They roll and pitch and just try to keep themselves hard to hit. From directly behind its hard to do damage anyway and its hard to get the lead right when they are moving constantly. If you dont shoot good it takes more ammo so it only helps them if your already low ammo. Just get closer and shoot them in the head and they explode real nice. The main thing to do is dont do what they are doing and you can close in. 190s are worst about this because they have such powerful ailerons so once you get in close watch out for the weave and make sure they stay in front of you. If you cant close the gap then climb and hunt for another target.
Another one is the bunt where the target pushes his stick hard forward and then jinks hoping you will overshoot. Just use your throttle or stay above them and get closer if you can.
Richthofen said it best. Close with the enemy and shoot them down. Every thing else is rubbish. Or something like that.
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The mouse players? Well, I guess there has to be a few of them laying around... You would think that the people who are even remotely interested in this game would already have a joystick.
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Yeah, ive always wanted to make it so you have to take a phyiscal before you fly, so each person blacks out at a natural point.
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rofl reynolds,
genius
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Originally posted by RTR
EH?!!!!....my old nemesis ;)
Kinda missed ya:)
RTR
ROFL you think I was old then? You oughtta see me now.
Good to see you sir
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Originally posted by wstpt10
The mouse players? Well, I guess there has to be a few of them laying around... You would think that the people who are even remotely interested in this game would already have a joystick.
Wait until you come across my boy Kazaa he will show you how remotely interested his mouse is in tearing your plane into little pieces....
I don't get it myself but when someone practices and gets good at using it he can pull moves out of his arse.
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The stick stirrers are not as hard to kill as you first think. Instead of trying to bring your pipper on target.. saddle up(easily done) and wait for them to jink into your pipper.. they always do. It's the only time I really taunt someone: "Stick stirring DENIED, (offending party name) is dead!"
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Wasn't the stick stirring slap on the wrist of "Don't move your stick so fast" dumbed down ALLOT over time? Seem's to me it has... I haven't seen that message in years. IMHO, a LOT of AH'rs these days could do with a healthy dose of it.
Also... go back and check films of yourself and see if you don't stick-stir without knowing you've done it. I wouldn't have thought I did, but after watching some films, I pulled a few manuevers that would have had me screamin STICK STIRRER at the other guy, had no idea. So I'm a little more cognizant of it while flying now. Just doing my part to keep my contribution of crap out of the game.
Tumor
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I think We are miss-interpretting what wstpt10 origionaly was trying to describe. I think he is still flying with his stall limiter on and doesnt know what a stall is. As we all know, when we close on an enemy and its time for the guns to do the talking, the last thing they can do is pull back on that stick as hard as possible and do a snap roll stall. The only way to deal with this is with gunnery experience.
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or simply slowing down and waiting for them to finish snap rolling only 20 yrds closer to you then they started :)
throttle work is the number 1 thing most people forget at the vital moments.
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I got the message when my A20 went into a violent shudder in a 400+ mph dive. I wasn't doing anything with the stick except trying to smoothly pull out before terra firma. I made it, the guy on my 6 said he could not believe it, then proceeded to shoot me down, but I got my bombs off at least :)
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Originally posted by Tumor
Wasn't the stick stirring slap on the wrist of "Don't move your stick so fast" dumbed down ALLOT over time? Seem's to me it has... I haven't seen that message in years. IMHO, a LOT of AH'rs these days could do with a healthy dose of it.
Also... go back and check films of yourself and see if you don't stick-stir without knowing you've done it. I wouldn't have thought I did, but after watching some films, I pulled a few manuevers that would have had me screamin STICK STIRRER at the other guy, had no idea. So I'm a little more cognizant of it while flying now. Just doing my part to keep my contribution of crap out of the game.
Tumor
No need to stik stir when you hover above a fight and wait for a plane to engage someone else to cherry them! The Timid Tumor!:aok
Mark
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Originally posted by eilif
I think We are miss-interpretting what wstpt10 origionaly was trying to describe. I think he is still flying with his stall limiter on and doesnt know what a stall is. As we all know, when we close on an enemy and its time for the guns to do the talking, the last thing they can do is pull back on that stick as hard as possible and do a snap roll stall. The only way to deal with this is with gunnery experience.
No, I took the stall limiter off after my first day. I know what a stall is, it is when the airfoil is not generating sufficient lift. I'm new to the game, but not new to air combat sims like this one, so what I just need to learn now is this specifics of this flight model.
These aren't stall manuvers. They are 'oh crap, this guy is behind me and his plane is faster! I'll flop around like a fish out of water so he can't hit me!'. Hopefully, this is often followed by the sudden realization of said flopper that a plane tends to fly better with two wings, rather than just one.
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What you are probably seeing are clueless noobs.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
What you are probably seeing are clueless noobs.
I resent that, I am NOT a noob! :D
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
What you are probably seeing are clueless noobs.
i have seen guys that have been around awhile that have been caught low and slow pull the move on me. had two of them smack a tree and i got the proxy, when i saw the name i laughed.
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The other thing that factors into this is the smoothing code. Your system get's periodic updates from the host regarding his position, direction, and presumably acceleration, and then extrapolates from that his position until the next update. At close distances, if he's changing those constantly, you will see his movements as a series of exaggerated jerks, where at longer distances, a few feet of differential between the extrapolation and the actual is indistinguishable.
So the end result is .... On his screen, he's jinking to avoid your shot. On your's, he's micro-warping and snap-flittering in impossible movements.
I've always wished for a game that had a built in "update overdrive" feature, where when you close to within a hundred yards or so of an enemy, both of your FE's are signaled by the host to send position updates at least twice as (if not more) rapidly to minimize this issue.
But so far, no one I know of has built that into a combat flight sim.
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well lets see...rounds that dont hit till your in the tower or stik stirring to prevent a cherrytard from getting his "victory"
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it is called stik stirring and it's only a slight delay in their demise if you're patient.
Personally a good scissor flat or rolling with a little throttle work is much more likely to get them out of sequence and hopefully over shoot......Now they have to stik stir and pray!
The stik stirring is frustrating and gamey I agree.
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Originally posted by jaxxo
well lets see...rounds that dont hit till your in the tower or stik stirring to prevent a cherrytard from getting his "victory"
Being 'cherried' is just another name for flying dumb (alone) near two guys that are flying smart (winging). There are no cherries in AH only lemons.
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Originally posted by Chalenge
There are no cherries in AH only lemons.
So lets go make some lemonaide :t
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Originally posted by Chalenge
Being 'cherried' is just another name for flying dumb (alone) near two guys that are flying smart (winging). There are no cherries in AH only lemons.
Challenge, your analogy is lame! This is a game about fighting. I have too many times waited for a "cherry picker" to engage and even tried to get them to engage by climbing up to them only to have them fly away and climb. So you just get tired of trying to get the guy to fight, even when he has the advantage. Eventually you see another plane who is willing to engage and so you start fighting. A few minutes into the fight you see the little coward cherry picker come roaring in at 500 mph to try to pick you. It is not smart flying that the cherry picker is doing, it is lame, cowardly, cherry picking! It brings the game down because there is absolutely no "fight" to it! When I am on, i like to be fighting, not chasing after some coward who would fly an entire sector back to his base out of icon range just to wait and see if I engage one of his friendlies! Timid, lame, and unexcusable!
:aok
Mark
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Alot of people fly like that. I was just talking to a squaddie the other night saying Id rather die in a 4 on 1, than rtb 2 kills every mission safe.
I just dont see the fun in it. How many missions do you remember where you rtb with a couple kills and it was pure bnz? They all blend in to me. The ones I remember were the tight fights, clawing your way out of it.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Alot of people fly like that. I was just talking to a squaddie the other night saying Id rather die in a 4 on 1, than rtb 2 kills every mission safe.
I just dont see the fun in it. How many missions do you remember where you rtb with a couple kills and it was pure bnz? They all blend in to me. The ones I remember were the tight fights, clawing your way out of it.
we can trade then, i've had enough of getting into a fight to only end up having three more dive in.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
No need to stik stir when you hover above a fight and wait for a plane to engage someone else to cherry them! The Timid Tumor!:aok
Mark
Golly... sorry you've been kilt so many times by my guns Skybleat... :aok
Fly smarter.
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You cant call it brave or cowardly SkyRock unless you think its real. Its not real its like a cartoon and you cant really die. So it comes down to choice and no matter how you think and how much you yell on 200 you probably wont change the guys mind. So either fly a plane that can catch the guy you are complaining about or dont. Either way live with your choice without debating his and you will be much happier. You think you have a more enlightened way of going at it so be happy with that.
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Originally posted by wstpt10
Well, he isn't warping. Just using those elevators in a manner that would make any normal human being puke all over the instrument panel.
Now there's an idea...Too many negative G jinks and you get barf all over the inside of canopy restricting veiws somewhat.
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LOL that'd be nasty :D
Blood, barf 'n Oil!
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Originally posted by Tumor
Golly... sorry you've been kilt so many times by my guns Skybleat... :aok
Fly smarter.
The timid tumor!~ LMAO! You are such a weak game player! :rofl
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Originally posted by Chalenge
You cant call it brave or cowardly SkyRock unless you think its real. Its not real its like a cartoon and you cant really die. So it comes down to choice and no matter how you think and how much you yell on 200 you probably wont change the guys mind. So either fly a plane that can catch the guy you are complaining about or dont. Either way live with your choice without debating his and you will be much happier. You think you have a more enlightened way of going at it so be happy with that.
It is exactly how I described. Tumor who responded in this thread is a prime example. If I am on and he is in the general vicinity of where I am fighting, I can never get him to fight. If I try to climb up to fight him, even when he has the advantage, he will run. Yet he always comes blasting through when you start dancing with another con. It is feeble gameplay and the type of play that only cowards would enjoy! I can understand taking up a bird and flying it safe from time to time, but to log on everytime you play and do nothing but hover around waiting for someone to be afk or already in a stalled out fight?????? Weak, skilless, and cowardly! It doesn't stop me from having my fun, it is just my perception on the issue. Weak cowardly gametards who get satisfaction out of coming into a fight and suckerpunching someone! Skilless and woefully punkish in the larger scope of why one would play a "fight" oriented game! :aok
Mark
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Originally posted by SirLoin
Now there's an idea...Too many negative G jinks and you get barf all over the inside of canopy restricting veiws somewhat.
Great, I've got some support.
Just think of the poor stirring saps stuck with vomit, blood, and oil all over their canopy. :t
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Originally posted by SkyRock
It is exactly how I described Tumor.....
Mark
Ahh yes Skybleat.... Humping my ankle won't save you. Maintain your SA... watch your tail... watch it close... I'll make you burrrrn :t
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Originally posted by Tumor
Ahh yes Skybleat.... Humping my ankle won't save you. Maintain your SA... watch your tail... watch it close... I'll make you burrrrn :t
LMAO, big talk from a weenie no-fight boy! You would never stand a chance beating me 1 vs 1 with an advantage or not. It is why you fly like you do! I don't think we'll ever get a chance to battle in this game because you don't play this game to fight. As far as SA goes, I always see your pathetic little no-skill cherry pickn coward attacks coming, unfortunately, I just don't have the patience to play a game as weak and cowardly as you! You are a scab of a player that should refrain from ever posting about fighting, as you do none of it ingame! Now if you ever feel big enough to jump up on the porch with the big dogs and actually fight, then give me a shout! :aok Until that time, enjoy your lameness!
Mark
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Wiggling Planes = Stick Stirrers
Love when that happens ... it only slows them down so my FM2 can catch them and shred them to pieces with my .50 cals.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
LMAO, big talk from a weenie no-fight boy!..... :cry
Mark
Did the school bully take your lunch money every day Sky? :O
Tumor :aok
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I feel hijacked.
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Originally posted by wstpt10
I feel hijacked.
Sorry wstpt10... it's hard not to considering the company.
Tumor
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Originally posted by Tumor
Sorry wstpt10... it's hard not to considering the company.
Tumor
I'm not complaining, sitting back with a bag of popcorn and watching this sort of thing is always a good time.
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This is the only place some of these guys fight.
For the rest of us, if we're not fighting, we're fighting over what to fight about next.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Might be nice though. if they could somehow model it in.
The longer and more often you perform hard manuvers. the more tired the pilot gets.
A fairly simple implementation would be to make G affects additive but this would take some fun out of those good long 5 minute 1 on 1's you can occasionally get in. If after 2 minutes you can't pull 3-4 G's without almost immediately going into glock that wouldn't make for too fun of a game. Especially if you're in a 1v4 doing well but having to pull G's constantly in order to survive.
So I'd say switching quickly and often between hard +G and hard -G should quickly induce a full blackout or redout. Let em jink hard +6 then -4 twice or three times then nighty night.
Stick stirring is an annoyance, mainly because the majority of the time they're not saving themselves merely prolonging their own inevitable death. It's rare when you can somehow stick-stir yourself into a reversal, you're going to die anyways, you might as well try to learn some new moves and maybe, just maybe, find yourself having fun in a hard flown battle.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
This is the only place some of these guys fight.
For the rest of us, if we're not fighting, we're fighting over what to fight about next.
I think the next fight should be about which squad had done more to "ruin the game": the Disposable Heros or the Blue Knights. ;)
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Originally posted by E25280
I think the next fight should be about which squad had done more to "ruin the game": the Disposable Heros or the Blue Knights. ;)
:rofl
I think it's those SAPP fellows, they all seem to be too nice! Ruins all the good bashing!
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Dont feel Hijacked :cool:
IMHO... what you are seeing is just a natural progression of a portion of the gaming population. They are "Meta-Gaming" Which is using the game to play the game. I have played several kinds of games, flight sims (Air Warrior I, II, III, IIIMV, AHII, F-117, F-15, F-18), FPS (Call of Duty I, II, HALO), FRPG's (DAoC, WOW, EQ) and they are all represented in there.
These are the players that use what ever capabilities they can squeeze out of the game mechanics to avoid getting biffed. Like in FPS games they jump into a crowd of enemy players and do the Jump/Strafe/Circle Boogaloo. Using the mechanics of the game that allows them to hit your toon since you are not bouncing your hit bubble all over creation and you cant hit them because the algorythim used to solve the equation in the sofware code sees them as not at the location where your bullets pass when you fire at them. Then they get on the boards and pound there chests about how they biffed 25 players with a 20 round clip.
These Loser Dweeb Punks are doing the same thing only different game different technique but same effect in AHII. I am new to AHII, just started flying Friday of last week and already I have seen "Jukin-Baton Twirlly-Whirlly Egg Beater Summarsault Stick Jerkin Flying" by some real dweebs. Not that I have ANY talent at all behind the stick of a Combat Aircraft but I refuse to play the game that way. My choice, everybody makes their own choice about this.
Dont let it get ya down. Everywhere ya go there is that 10% that just cant seem to get with the program. I have seen a lot of really good flyers in here in just the past few days though so I know I can follow somebody elses lead and learn how to fly better and have more fun. :cool:
Just my thoughts on this subject.
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I'll flop around like a fish out of water so he can't hit me!'.
Thats the *Dryland Trout Maneuver* :D
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Stick Stirring. Ill try it next time up. Maybe when I am getting Cherry Picked.
Cherry Picking. I agree with Tumor. It is part of the SA.If you get picked it is your own fault.
Get enough cherries, you can make a Cherry pie?
-SR-:noid
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Cherry picking is what now?
Someone should compline an encyclopedia of AH terms...
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
~the term you are looking for is 'stick stirring dweebs'
most often a tactic of the 190D and P51 timid pilots when they lose thier alt advantage and have no clue what to do next..
As Stated above
If you fly a 190D or a P51 and a enemy is on your 6
you must not move the stick left or right
You must fly stright and true if not,
you are stick strring
therfor cheating them of a easy kill and wrong
I hope that clears it up for you
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Originally posted by Gopher
As Stated above
If you fly a 190D or a P51 and a enemy is on your 6
you must not move the stick left or right
You must fly stright and true if not,
you are stick strring
therfor cheating them of a easy kill and wrong
I hope that clears it up for you
There is a fairly clear cut difference between effective jinking and stick stirring.
The difference primarily is the effectiveness and realism inherent in the moves. As an example, I fly a F4U as my regular plane so thats what we'll use.
The F4U does not have great acceleration but has pretty good top end speed. As such, if I make the decision to extend making wild radical moves from hard positive to hard negative G is counter-productive as it basically becomes one constant E bleed. Bleeding E when you're trying to build speed to get away is a quick way to get you dead. So depending on whats chasing me I typically use a series of gentler moves that force a tracking 6 shot that doesn't provide a large deflection profile that they can hit easily which allows me to build speed. This is a trade-off between being hard to hit and actually escaping.
Stick-stirring does not take this into account at all. Unrealistic hard positive to hard negative G's are made.. unrealistic in the sense that most pilots cannot physically cope with the repeated maneuvers, pulling hard positive G's for periods of time is possible but hard on the body. Slamming between hard positive back to hard negative to hard positive to hard negative is not something I've ever heard any pilots doing. While this does make the target difficult to hit sure, it bleeds most of the targets E while they do this and they actually end up putting themselves in a worse position than they originally were in to start with.
A concerted effort to force an overshoot is one thing. Flailing around at the stick with no strategy beyond 'zomg dont let them hit me!!!!' is what the complaints are focused on. And to be honest if it was something I merely encountered when facing green pilots only it wouldn't be worth mentioning. But the fact of the matter are there are many more experienced pilots (experienced but not necessarily good) now that use this type of thing as a crutch, and because of the fact its not realistic due to the physical aspects involved seems very much like gaming the game.
In the end you're going to live far more often if you actually try to out maneuver your opponent or keep your E until you're out of range.
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stick sterring......works silly tactic but works (most times when im trying it i get the do not move controlls so rapidly stuff)
Jokester
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I upgraded again and last night ran into a few guys trying this stick stirring stuff. Now that I dont see little graphic warps and hesitations I can really nail those outside moves and none of these guys got past the first shot. Go ahead and stick stir. :D
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Originally posted by -SR-
Cherry Picking. I agree with Tumor. It is part of the SA.If you get picked it is your own fault.
-SR-
I see these types in the arena all the time, if you try to engage them they run. If you try to climb up to them they fly the different direction out of icon range. They hang around just out of icon range and wait for you to find another plane to fight, then and only then do they come down to pick. Classless, tasteless,lame and cowardly! :aok
Mark
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Originally posted by Chalenge
I upgraded again and last night ran into a few guys trying this stick stirring stuff. Now that I dont see little graphic warps and hesitations I can really nail those outside moves and none of these guys got past the first shot. Go ahead and stick stir. :D
There is a new upgrade as of when?
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Originally posted by wstpt10
Well, if you can't tell by the post count and join date, I'm rather new to this game...
Something that I have noticed happening a lot when I get in close for a kill is that the guy I'm targeting is jinking along the vertical axis at an impossible rate. The bugger is really all over the place! Is this some sort of lag issue, or a rather a-historic tactic?
Thanks
Now wait a mintue here...I'm not sure these guys are stirrers, and I'm not sure the "moving stick too rapidly" coding is failing.
I think its FAR more common to see this from the transition from "smoothing code" to real time positioning.
Here's what I mean:
Data on other planes' positions is sorted by HTC server, and updated on your computer with priority based primarily on the distance the con is from you. In other words, extreme dot ranges are updated less often than 1K cons, but more often than radar dots from the other side of the map.
At longer ranges, the game lets the choppy nature of those updates show. So, if you're chasing a dot at extreme range you see him stay still for a few seconds, then make a jump, and stay still there for a few more.
At some point, the movements get smoother, and then appear natural. That's partly due to the range update priority, but also due to "smoothing code" that HT uses to "fill in the gaps" between data points. In essence, the game makes educated guesses about where the plane is likely to be, and fine tunes theose guesses when the next data chunk comes in.
If the software guesses wrong, or much more commonly if the player's connection causes an unusually long wait for actual position data, we see warping. Because the smoothing code is good, warping almost always comes from connection VARIATION not from connection speeed.
Once the enemy is very close to you, smoothing code doesnt predict well enough to be reliable, and we end up waiting for real time data chunks. On the enemies front end, he may be doing legitiamte ACM, maybe a sloppy vertical scissor or something -- but since we get periodic updates, we see him jumping and flopping from position to position.
All those uys who "deliberately warp" when you get close arent doing that at all -- you're seeing the effects of internet delay on very close range maneuvering.
For example, last week I miraculously ended up on Skyrock's 6. On my fron end, when I got under 400 I saw his plane jerkling higher and lower as he maneuvered to break away -- but he WASN'T stick stirring. It was simply the software and internet effects I described above. And I couldnt hit his plane for anything even though I could anticipate his break timing, because of the delay in updates from the server. (Well, that and my general stinkiness...but I digress.)
I really think this is FAR AND AWAY the biggest reason for "stick stirring", especially the ones who seem to jerk around. Truly rapid movements freeze the controls -- and if you think that threshold is set too low, try to deliberately stir in combat sometime....
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Originally posted by Simaril
Now wait a mintue here...I'm not sure these guys are stirrers, and I'm not sure the "moving stick too rapidly" coding is failing.
I think its FAR more common to see this from the transition from "smoothing code" to real time positioning.
Here's what I mean:
Data on other planes' positions is sorted by HTC server, and updated on your computer with priority based primarily on the distance the con is from you. In other words, extreme dot ranges are updated less often than 1K cons, but more often than radar dots from the other side of the map.
At longer ranges, the game lets the choppy nature of those updates show. So, if you're chasing a dot at extreme range you see him stay still for a few seconds, then make a jump, and stay still there for a few more.
At some point, the movements get smoother, and then appear natural. That's partly due to the range update priority, but also due to "smoothing code" that HT uses to "fill in the gaps" between data points. In essence, the game makes educated guesses about where the plane is likely to be, and fine tunes theose guesses when the next data chunk comes in.
If the software guesses wrong, or much more commonly if the player's connection causes an unusually long wait for actual position data, we see warping. Because the smoothing code is good, warping almost always comes from connection VARIATION not from connection speeed.
Once the enemy is very close to you, smoothing code doesnt predict well enough to be reliable, and we end up waiting for real time data chunks. On the enemies front end, he may be doing legitiamte ACM, maybe a sloppy vertical scissor or something -- but since we get periodic updates, we see him jumping and flopping from position to position.
All those uys who "deliberately warp" when you get close arent doing that at all -- you're seeing the effects of internet delay on very close range maneuvering.
For example, last week I miraculously ended up on Skyrock's 6. On my fron end, when I got under 400 I saw his plane jerkling higher and lower as he maneuvered to break away -- but he WASN'T stick stirring. It was simply the software and internet effects I described above. And I couldnt hit his plane for anything even though I could anticipate his break timing, because of the delay in updates from the server. (Well, that and my general stinkiness...but I digress.)
I really think this is FAR AND AWAY the biggest reason for "stick stirring", especially the ones who seem to jerk around. Truly rapid movements freeze the controls -- and if you think that threshold is set too low, try to deliberately stir in combat sometime....
There is a distinct difference between what you are describing and stick-stirrin'.
Many times after fighting some guy for position, and all his movments are smooth, and when you finally saddle up on his 6 he starts jinking left and right - up and down - barrel rolls ... repeat same sequence (until he dies) ... that is stick-stirrin'.
Most that do this are flying late war speed machines and have attempted to fight, but lost the "position" fight ... and they don't quite have enough speed to exit safely ... so they start the stick stirrin' ... what they don't realize is that the stirrin' blows more E/Speed and they become an slower and easier target to hit.
I see this all the time ... and I laugh.
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Most that do this are flying late war speed machines and have attempted to fight, but lost the "position" fight ... and they don't quite have enough speed to exit safely ... so they start the stick stirrin' ... what they don't realize is that the stirrin' blows more E/Speed and they become an slower and easier target to hit.
Yup, like I said: Let them fly back into your pipper.. they always do.. each time a little closer as they burn E from stirring.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
This is the only place some of these guys fight.
For the rest of us, if we're not fighting, we're fighting over what to fight about next.
:rofl
Classic!!
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Ok im confused....
I have about 400-500 air to air (sprinkled with vulches) kills a camp and i have never thought someone was stick-stirring...honest...
About 3 years ago someone told me about stickstirring and i tried it a few times...every time i got the "dont move oyur stick too fast message" AND my joystick went out of calibration badly...so i stopped...
not sure what I am missing here...do other people not get calibration issues when you stick stir as well???:huh
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Originally posted by FALCONWING
Ok im confused....
I have about 400-500 air to air (sprinkled with vulches) kills a camp and i have never thought someone was stick-stirring...honest...
About 3 years ago someone told me about stickstirring and i tried it a few times...every time i got the "dont move oyur stick too fast message" AND my joystick went out of calibration badly...so i stopped...
not sure what I am missing here...do other people not get calibration issues when you stick stir as well???:huh
Gotta say, I'm with Falc on this one.
I still think most supposed stick stirring is connection/smoothing code related.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Gotta say, I'm with Falc on this one.
I still think most supposed stick stirring is connection/smoothing code related.
It's simply a matter of definitions changing over time. Previously stick-stirring was the phrase used to identify someone moving their stick rapidly in many directions to create erratic movements which amplified the issues that result from receiving only so many positional updates in a second.
It's now often used to describe the erratic high +G high -G transitional moves that're employed to dodge bullets while (poorly) attempting to flee a pursuer. Others might call it propoising etc.
Grab an F4U4 some day and spend it chasing down 190's that attempt to ho and run. You'll see what we're talking about.
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Ill start rolling film again and see if I can catch a prime example. It shouldnt be too hard.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Gotta say, I'm with Falc on this one.
I still think most supposed stick stirring is connection/smoothing code related.
Dudes, this is ole school! Only newbs truly stik stir! It usually comes around 3-9 months in, "****! Duedes on my six!!! I'm gonna try this!" I usually chop throttle, hard rudder, intentional stall-right, let sights fall on target, and Blammmo! :aok
Mark
PS: I own anyone who quotes my post! Do it! You know you want to!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I will totally own your "falling to the ground burning" piece of a plane when it's finished!
:t
Muppets OWN!
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yeah, but you can actually hit stuff when you shoot....
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Originally posted by SkyRock
I usually chop throttle, hard rudder, intentional stall-right, let sights fall on target, and Blammmo!
Muppets OWN!
Then a certain guy in a p51D who happened to be in the area ambushes your beatifully slow F4U-a as it hoses down the hapless noob. You crash moments after the burning stick stirrer splashes into the ocean. The two of you share a raft in the shark infested waters. You proceed to tell the noob how stick stirring is for dweebs and how you own the guy in the 51.
Then you tell them the noob all about yourself, the Great Skyrock.
The two of you drift for hours in the hot sun, but time passes quickly, at least for Skyrock, for you regale the noob with tales of your uberness, speckled with occasional rants about how the 51 pilot is the Lord of all that is Dweeby; the very worst of all dweebs. You endlessly speak on about great kills you've had and how the way you fly is the only non-dweeb way to fight. You remember all your great kills, and you are sure to tell the noob about every one. If anyone can cure this noob of dweebery, it is the Great Skyrock.
Some hours later, after you have hardly paused to take a breath in your efforts to de-dweeb the noob and to bring him onto the enlightened path of Skyrockery, the noob screams the scream of the tormented and begins pulling his own hair out of his head. The noob stands up and screams maniacally: " Do you ever shut up?!" You begin to explain that you are the Great Skyrock, and you own everyone. The noob whimpers, sobs quietly, then hurls himself overboard, into the waiting maws of very hungry sharks.
You float alone now, and drift off to sleep as the sun sets.
You awake to the sounds of lapping waves, the distant drone of fighter engines and gunfire, and the unexpected and musical laughter of young women.
As you open your eyes you are looking straight up. Lo and behold, you see the same P51 that shot you down the day before. The pony is in a vertical spiral above you with an La7 right on it's 6! You cheer for the unknown La7 pilot as you see the sparkle of its' guns in the cowl.
The pony rolls over in a stall and you are horrifed to see the La7's nose fall, then wallow helplessly as it struggles to nose down.
The laughter again. You look around for the source. You realize only then that you have washed up on a flawless, white sand, tropical beach. Beyond the beach rises a a beautiful resort complex with a huge banner hanging from the eaves which reads: "The Nubile Resort Welcomes the students of St. Anastacia's All Girl Modeling College.. spring break '07!"
You locate the source of the laughter. It's the girls of Saint Anastacia All Girl Modeling College. You are left breathless as you take in the site of the girls at breakfast on the outdoor veranda. Even the resort staff is all female. They are giggling amongst themselves as the gesture at you. Obviously you, the great and handsome Skyrock, are the source of their excitement. It dawns on you then that you are the sole male on this secluded island! Yes!!!! Skyrock owns!
You snicker in the back of your mind about the 51 pilot up in the virtual skies, risking his life as you, the Great Skyrock, see the girls of St. Anastacia's All Girls Modeling College beckon for you to join them.
That same snickering part of your mind notes the change in the fighter's engine sounds above; you push that out of your head as you stride up the beach towards the waiting beauties. You hear but ignore the all too familiar sound of 6 .50 caliber machinge guns hammering the life out of another airplane. The shredding of Russian metal is not your problem, you reason. You are the great Skyrock! You own the girls of St. Anatasia's All Girl Modeling College!
The engines are roaring close now above you. You notice with some annoyance that you can no longer hear the girls but that's OK. You can tell the girls are getting more anxious to meet you as they are now beckoning furiously toward you. you smile and wave at the girls but then a shadow blots out the sun above you. Before you can look up the flaming hulk of an La7 slams you flat into the sand. As you lay crushed on the beach you see, out of your dying eyes, the pony taxiing up next to you and shutting down; the girls of St. Anastacia's All Girl College gathered around it.
The last conscious thought you have is the vision of the 51 pilot, that familiar cheesey grin on his face, as he is embraced by all the girls.
End :D
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Too much time on your hands there bud.
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FYI actual "stick stirring" is not really possible in this game as the controls will lock up if you move the stick too rapidly several times.
The problem is usually with planes with fast roll rate and the web connection combined with "prediction code" cannot keep up with such rapid movements.
It could be enlightening to fly e.g. a 190A8 or F8 and realize that they do not have many defenses other than good roll rate... :p
-C+
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Then a certain guy in a p51D who happened to be in the area ambushes your beatifully slow F4U-a as it hoses down the hapless noob. You crash moments after the burning stick stirrer splashes into the ocean. The two of you share a raft in the shark infested waters. You proceed to tell the noob how stick stirring is for dweebs and how you own the guy in the 51.
Then you tell them the noob all about yourself, the Great Skyrock.
The two of you drift for hours in the hot sun, but time passes quickly, at least for Skyrock, for you regale the noob with tales of your uberness, speckled with occasional rants about how the 51 pilot is the Lord of all that is Dweeby; the very worst of all dweebs. You endlessly speak on about great kills you've had and how the way you fly is the only non-dweeb way to fight. You remember all your great kills, and you are sure to tell the noob about every one. If anyone can cure this noob of dweebery, it is the Great Skyrock.
Some hours later, after you have hardly paused to take a breath in your efforts to de-dweeb the noob and to bring him onto the enlightened path of Skyrockery, the noob screams the scream of the tormented and begins pulling his own hair out of his head. The noob stands up and screams maniacally: " Do you ever shut up?!" You begin to explain that you are the Great Skyrock, and you own everyone. The noob whimpers, sobs quietly, then hurls himself overboard, into the waiting maws of very hungry sharks.
You float alone now, and drift off to sleep as the sun sets.
You awake to the sounds of lapping waves, the distant drone of fighter engines and gunfire, and the unexpected and musical laughter of young women.
As you open your eyes you are looking straight up. Lo and behold, you see the same P51 that shot you down the day before. The pony is in a vertical spiral above you with an La7 right on it's 6! You cheer for the unknown La7 pilot as you see the sparkle of its' guns in the cowl.
The pony rolls over in a stall and you are horrifed to see the La7's nose fall, then wallow helplessly as it struggles to nose down.
The laughter again. You look around for the source. You realize only then that you have washed up on a flawless, white sand, tropical beach. Beyond the beach rises a a beautiful resort complex with a huge banner hanging from the eaves which reads: "The Nubile Resort Welcomes the students of St. Anastacia's All Girl Modeling College.. spring break '07!"
You locate the source of the laughter. It's the girls of Saint Anastacia All Girl Modeling College. You are left breathless as you take in the site of the girls at breakfast on the outdoor veranda. Even the resort staff is all female. They are giggling amongst themselves as the gesture at you. Obviously you, the great and handsome Skyrock, are the source of their excitement. It dawns on you then that you are the sole male on this secluded island! Yes!!!! Skyrock owns!
You snicker in the back of your mind about the 51 pilot up in the virtual skies, risking his life as you, the Great Skyrock, see the girls of St. Anastacia's All Girls Modeling College beckon for you to join them.
That same snickering part of your mind notes the change in the fighter's engine sounds above; you push that out of your head as you stride up the beach towards the waiting beauties. You hear but ignore the all too familiar sound of 6 .50 caliber machinge guns hammering the life out of another airplane. The shredding of Russian metal is not your problem, you reason. You are the great Skyrock! You own the girls of St. Anatasia's All Girl Modeling College!
The engines are roaring close now above you. You notice with some annoyance that you can no longer hear the girls but that's OK. You can tell the girls are getting more anxious to meet you as they are now beckoning furiously toward you. you smile and wave at the girls but then a shadow blots out the sun above you. Before you can look up the flaming hulk of an La7 slams you flat into the sand. As you lay crushed on the beach you see, out of your dying eyes, the pony taxiing up next to you and shutting down; the girls of St. Anastacia's All Girl College gathered around it.
The last conscious thought you have is the vision of the 51 pilot, that familiar cheesey grin on his face, as he is embraced by all the girls.
End :D
That is funny chit!!! :rofl :lol :rofl
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As evidenced in this story SkyRock you die too often to be telling people you own them. :D
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Originally posted by Chalenge
As evidenced in this story SkyRock you die too often to be telling people you own them. :D
I hope you typed in jest, chalenge. The story was meant for fun and entertainment. A satire penned merely for one's reading pleasure and is in no way to be taken as a serious comment upon... well... anything. :)