Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Cirro on March 09, 2007, 11:20:37 PM
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My appologies to those that will get their noses out of joint if this has been talked about before. Which I'm sure it has.
I can't devote an afternoon to read every post.
Can you only put 1 person in a bomber to gun???
If a guy has a 17 and has 1 gunner..it says "already attached"
Am I missing something?
I'll wait for a response before I express My ABSOLUTE BODY NUMBING SHOCK if its true.
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Originally posted by Nova
My appologies to those that will get their noses out of joint if this has been talked about before. Which I'm sure it has.
I can't devote an afternoon to read every post.
Can you only put 1 person in a bomber to gun???
If a guy has a 17 and has 1 gunner..it says "already attached"
Am I missing something?
I'll wait for a response before I express My ABSOLUTE BODY NUMBING SHOCK if its true.
No ack-stars.....sorry :)
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Only one gunner at a time.
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Well ..Uh HEY HITECH,, bombers in ww2 had 6-7 spots for gunners for a reason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh man..I'm just dumbfounded.
More to follow....can't even think straight.
GET WITH THE PROGRAM HITECH
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(http://z.about.com/d/websearch/1/0/s/5/deathstar.png)
That's what buffs would be like if all the gunner positions could be manned.
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I don't get it Fianna
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have you attacked buffs??(probly:rolleyes: ) they all ready have lazer 50cals....deadly enought as they are...don't need 10 ppl shooting at you
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The reason that you can only have one gunner lies in the Formation option and the lag issue. There's three choices.
*One gunner controls all the guns that can fire at a time. Instantly swap between positions.
*Multiple gunners fire and unmanned guns somehow guess as to which arc they should follow. Every time you wish to switch gun position, you must ask the server to ask the other gunner if he's going to be in that spot any time soon. You then have to wait for the response. If they're already moving there, you have to pick another spot. If they aren't, you move after all the netlag has finished, at which point you're probably dead.
*AW/WB style where there are no "auto" gunners. If a gun isn't manned, it doesn't fire. You also cannot switch guns in case someone joins the plane and takes a seat. The pilot cannot be a gunner for the same reason.
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Nova,
Having indivadual gunner spots for each position would be silly, Its more of a gameplay issue than a historic reason.
Bomber pilot gets (2) drones to help stay alive.
What happens if HT removes the drones and lets a gunner into every position. 1 Bomber fully manned. A TA152 drops out of nowhere 30 mins into your flight and says hello with some 30mm. Your bomber is dead all of your gunners too. That sounds fun too me!
With drones all gunners on all 3 bombers shoot at the target if they have an angle. This can be deadly and it doesnt need to waste 6 players time.
If you want to have some fun in bombers just get your 6 gunner men to fly their own set of buffs. Lets see 6 x 3 B24/B17'S = 18 Bombers in the air thats ALOT of rear gunner action. It will entice many enemy fighters to up so you get lots of gunner practice and the fighters lots of kills everyones happy!
Bruv
~S~
PS: fianna is referring to the Deathstar Pic if you havent seen Star Wars your not qualified to comment on Bombers in AH.
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I play and pay $15 ..that qualifies me to comment on anything.
I guess the next step is to "auto" turn off half the typhoon guns if its within 3k of a bird with weaker guns. It might end up a mis-match!
Every ability of every plane should be fully functional. Period.
I think that limit on buffs is rediculous and retarded.
Thanks for the comments, we can kill this thread now.
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Well, I play too, so I must have the right to comment on your comments.
The ability of a heavy bombardment aircraft to hit someone with its guns was actually very, very slim. The guns shook everywhere and there was no guarantee that any other gun was firing in the same direction that any other was.
Gunners in this game have pinpoint accuracy. Gun shake and the fatigue of the crew freezing and suffocating at 30,000ft even with O2 and heavy clothes is not modeled. Every gun that can swing around to where you're aiming with a live crew member behind it and ammo in its belt WILL fire EXACTLY where your crosshair is at 800 yards out without fail. Guns also do not jam or overheat; you can hold the trigger on the cockpit of the enemy plane until you run out of ammo if you like. Bombers also are generally full throttle their entire flight. Real bomber aircraft couldn't do that without risking engine failure and running out of fuel very early.
Saying that bomber aircraft are "limited" in this game is a very off statement, to be sure.
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A well-flown, well-gunned B-17G is nearly invincible already. Like above stated, you do NOT want all 10 crew in that Flying Fortress.
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Just to clarify.
Originally posted by OOZ662
Every gun that can swing around to where you're aiming with a live crew member behind it and ammo in its belt WILL fire EXACTLY where your crosshair is at 800 yards out without fail.
500 yards afaik. It means if enemy farther or closer other gunners will shoot anywhere except your aiming point.
Originally posted by OOZ662
Guns also do not jam or overheat; you can hold the trigger on the cockpit of the enemy plane until you run out of ammo if you like.
Same as fighter's guns.
Originally posted by OOZ662
Bombers also are generally full throttle their entire flight. Real bomber aircraft couldn't do that without risking engine failure and running out of fuel very early.
Same as fighters, again.
One gunner only is technical issue, it not to make bombers easy or hard targets.
P.S. All bombers 3k below my d-hog are easy targets unless i do something very stupid.
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Nova sir
Times change, game code changes, network code changes. With some of these changes come restrictions on what you might have been able to do in the past but can't do now.
Now, given the choice, would I trade AH2 full up with AW or WB just so I can load up a bomber? Not a snowballs chance in H E double toothpicks sir.
This is the way it is, it can't change, its adapt or move on.
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Originally posted by Nova
I play and pay $15 ..that qualifies me to comment on anything.
I guess the next step is to "auto" turn off half the typhoon guns if its within 3k of a bird with weaker guns. It might end up a mis-match!
Every ability of every plane should be fully functional. Period.
I think that limit on buffs is rediculous and retarded.
Thanks for the comments, we can kill this thread now.
Wow, your $15 must be worth alot more than mine, because I don't
think mine entitles me to tell HT how to run his show. I guess I should
have made my opinions known in my first month of posting too. :aok
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Rino...its offering my opinion and my comments on a specific aspect of the game. Nothing more
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Nova guns are slaved. That means from whatever position your gunner is in any gun that can "see" the enemy will fire on it.
You have F3 mode to scan in. Thats probably just as good (if not better) as a full crew for spotting.
Learn the crew positions and it should help with gunning.
Bronk
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Also, use you "fire all" button if you have one mapped separately from "fire primary." If you use your primary fire button only, you will fire only the guns in your current gun position - fire all shoots all guns (at least for me).
Just taking a shot in the dark that this may be why you think bomber guns are weak.
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Agreed, bet he doesn't have his controls set up yet.
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lol. Learn to fly your plane, THEN talk about its shortcomings. I have yet to find ANY quality about our Bombers I dislike. Especially the B-17.
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Who needs gunners?
I fly buffs on and off at times. Not too bad a bomber score. I don't take on gunners; I do my own gunning.
Learned very early, most would-be gunners will:
- fire off limited ammo load at no target, or any dot 6 K out
- don't pay attention
- can't lead or hit targets
- don't understand idea of short, controlled bursts
- can be very annoying over local VOX
- will post tactical information over Help channel
- will taunt others on Ch 200 (I don't monitor 200 in the first place)
Who needs that?
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Originally posted by Oleg
500 yards afaik. It means if enemy farther or closer other gunners will shoot anywhere except your aiming point.
Same as fighters, again.
A good gunner, however, can adjust to that very easily, and there again is your pinpoint accuracy.
The throttle setting is not the same as fighters, unless it was common to fly at cruise speed as you were attacking a bomber formation. Bombers were still at a cruising speed while being attacked; fighters were no doubt under full power.
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Originally posted by OOZ662
The throttle setting is not the same as fighters, unless it was common to fly at cruise speed as you were attacking a bomber formation. Bombers were still at a cruising speed while being attacked; fighters were no doubt under full power.
Bombers didnt flew at full trottle because their strength was in close formations, which was easily to maintain at slower speed.
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Originally posted by Nova
I play and pay $15 ..that qualifies me to comment on anything.
I guess the next step is to "auto" turn off half the typhoon guns if its within 3k of a bird with weaker guns. It might end up a mis-match!
Every ability of every plane should be fully functional. Period.
I think that limit on buffs is rediculous and retarded.
Thanks for the comments, we can kill this thread now.
So should we also eliminate the 3 buff formation? Or is that ok because it helps you?
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Nova, set your guns so they all shoot...
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This is a much better system overall than the old AW system (all positions could be manned but you couldn't gun your own buff). 2 drone buddies tagging along for extra firepower, all guns from all planes that have a shot fire together, fewer people wasting their time and you can gun your own plane.
The only downfall to this system is being tag teamed by one or more fighters. You can only track one at a time, so, if there were an enhancement to be made it might be to allow the pilot and his gunner to both man gun positions. In doing so I would envision that the drone guns in the same positions would remain slaved to each gunner while all other guns drop out of service. Alternately, all guns but those manned could drop out forcing more plane to plane jumps for the gunners. Jumping positions would not be affectted by lag any worse than was the case in AW (no noticable effect). As soon as your back to one gunner then it's back to current mode.
This would allow you to deal with multiple attackers more effectively while at the same time reducing firepower somewhat to compensate and not re-introduce the death star scenario (although flying a fully manned B-17 through a furball in AW used to be sort of fun).
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If they enabled it in here, would likely have same shortcomings as AW-- incredible delay spikes
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Can you kill or wound a gunner? This may be a stupid question but I'm new here
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Originally posted by Crousader
Can you kill or wound a gunner? This may be a stupid question but I'm new here
Yes.
And for those of you here who are arguing as to the bomber's speed, and such. Dont mind those n00bs on the deck, they are cannon fodder. I fly at max cruise at a nice calm 18,000. A bomber properly flown will terrify you, if these deck-n00bs already scare you. Again, lets not man ALL the guns, these things are already damned near invincible!
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Oleg, bombers historically "cruised" at 40% or 50% of max speed. Fighters historically "cruised" at 75% or 80% of max throttle. Even on cruise settings a fighter aircraft would make mincemeat of an enemy bomber.
In this game we have the exact opposite, with bombers practically outrunning almost all but the fastest fighters*
* = unless you already start at 30, which nobody does due to the way this game works
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Originally posted by Krusty
Oleg, bombers historically "cruised" at 40% or 50% of max speed. Fighters historically "cruised" at 75% or 80% of max throttle.
B-24D - max speed 303 mph, cruise 200 mph, = 66%
B-17F - max speed 300 mph (325 with WEP), cruise 200 mph, = 67% (61%)
B-26 - max speed 282 mph, cruise 195 mph, = 69%
Example of bombers with cruising speed below 50%?
Originally posted by Krusty
In this game we have the exact opposite, with bombers practically outrunning almost all but the fastest fighters*
* = unless you already start at 30, which nobody does due to the way this game works
Dont need to exaggerate. Bombers neither outrun nor outdive anything but slowest fighters, except for early war time frame.
Yes, bombers flying at max speed all way is unrealistic and it ever less realistic than fighters flying at max speed because it affect intercept tactics. There is easy solution which was suggested early - limit drones to cruise speed.
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My dad was an Emerson nose turret gunner in the pacific theater during WWII (B24s). His alternate position was ball turret.
I'll take the slaved guns to reality; in reality a formation wouldn't have a prayer. There's a reason they flew several hundred bombers in one group and still lost half of them before Hap Arnold got off his stupid high horse and let them put drop tanks on fighters.
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Oleg I've seen several numbers on the 'Net that show bombers' cruising speeds at 150-160mph, not 200mph.
EDIT: And the B-17F was notably faster than the G, due to a more streamlined nose. I'm not 100% but I think the same is true of the B24D vs the B24J.
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Looks like i didnt payed enough attention to bomber's version we have, heh.
B-17G had max speed 263 mph at 25,000 feet and cruising speed 150 mph at same alt, 57% still closer to 60 than 50.
There are no big difference between b-24D and J.
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Hey, guys, stop with the catfighting and act like men about the gunning subject. Everyone has there own qualitys in this game that there good at. Me, im good in corsairs and ponys. Lets stop fighting and and play the game. simple as that :aok :aok :aok
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Originally posted by SuBWaYCH
Hey, guys, stop with the catfighting and act like men about the gunning subject. Everyone has there own qualitys in this game that there good at. Me, im good in corsairs and ponys. Lets stop fighting and and play the game. simple as that :aok :aok :aok
I agree. And theres a brilliant phrase from a song that I know that fits perfectly here.
'If you dont like the rules, dont play the fu*kin game!'
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Its unfair to expect 100% historical accuracy. Hell, I would love to see genuine 1000 plane raids with full escort lasting 10 hours or more. It aint possible in this game. Likewise, very seldom did the lanc fly in daylight in a group of 3 planes!
Get over it, it's not a bad compromise. It's no worse than having Typhoons fighting Spits and the like. I still think the p51D should be a perked plane though.:D
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I agree with the thread starter....
I hail from the AW days and buffs went un-gunned if gunners were not available.
The option should be available that if a buff driver wants a left seat, a nav, a bombardier and gunners then let him have them....
If thats the case then NO AUTO gun for that buff instance.
I love gunning....and I used to love long buff flights in AW with seven guys in back and great driver in front....
Pizza and beer and lots of chatter on the private com on the climb up and out...
There is nothing....and I mean NOTHING....like seven or eight guys on one plane hanging out and hit strategic targets deep in the evil empire from 35k feet.
And when some hapless fighter climbs up into the rarified air to challenge...the donutwood gets what coming...
This game should have multiple gunner slots and if the users so select...then no triple wing and no autogun...they are on there own....
Thats my two cents...
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
(although flying a fully manned B-17 through a furball in AW used to be sort of fun).
Understatment of year ^Crsh....I just realized tonight via this thread that we cant have pizza and beer and a big old whoop butt party on some buff or mitch....
Gunning with a full crew of live guys was the pinnacle for me in old AW...
Nothing like it...
The only thing missing back then was the ability to chuck some POS vagrant off the plane who we all knew we shouldn't have let on in the first place....
Semper Fi ~ Never Forget
Respectfully....1WAY>
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Originally posted by Serenity
Again, lets not man ALL the guns, these things are already damned near invincible!
I would bet that putting humans in place of robots would decrease the lethality of the bomber...
Adding real live humans on a buff in AW only marginally increased your survivability...
The effectiveness of armament on buffs is only truly realized when flown in formation...then each component is a force multiplier for the other...and only then....
Alone they are sitting ducks...
And I will guarantee you that if you put three or four human gunners on a single buff(thats the best one could hope for on a normal basis)....two good fighter pilots will chew that tin can up like a dog at dinner time....
The only place for robots is like it was in AW....drone goonys flying supplies to cripple bases....
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Originally posted by 1Way>
I agree with the thread starter....
I hail from the AW days and buffs went un-gunned if gunners were not available.
I like this idea! If you can't recruit a person to man a gun position...then you have a unmanned gun position.
Nobody wants to fly with you, you fly without guns. Best of both worlds! Bomber guys are happy because they can crew a bomber if they can find the people. Fighter guys are happy because if the pilot can't find people to crew all three bombers less firepower to deal with. If the Bomber pilot can find no one to fly with him the fighter guys get free kills. :D
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Here's a question for that idea though; would you like three new planes or that system? It would take forever for the code to be redone. You'd have to exclude all the fighters from it (which would probably end up buggy and needing a patch), code the ability to change the option, revamp the ENTIRE join system that currently exists, come up with a way that compensates for the lag of everybody sitting in the same spot firing away, on and on...
All without copying the code from their previous game, I'm guessing. I'm pretty sure they don't have the rights to it or else it'd still be supported by them.
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Originally posted by Oleg
Yes, bombers flying at max speed all way is unrealistic and it ever less realistic than fighters flying at max speed because it affect intercept tactics. There is easy solution which was suggested early - limit drones to cruise speed.
Personally, I'd have no problem with drones being limited to cruise, or even full speed with no "catch up speed" to maintain formation.
As to max speed runs; players that run their buffs at full speed have either mastered the use of trim tabs, using Kentucky windage in bomb sight, using large salvos, or are failing to use the hyper-accuracy of those bomesights to their fullest. Full speed hurts accuracy for the most part.
I typically run at 75% to 80% of full power settings on the bomb run. Most of the bombers in the game have a tendency to keep gaining altitude when under max RPM and MAN. This throws off a long calibration. You get the speed even, line up on target well in advance, and have a steady altitude, take a long calibration --- you can use single or dual salvos and hit many more targets on a single mission.
I can salvo 1 or 2 500 lbs bombs from a flight of B-17's from 25K or higher and take out a strat target like dar, ord, or troops pretty consistently. It's also fun watching would-be interceptors bring planes unsuited to high altitudes, claw their way up to altitude..... just to swat them down. I've gone back and forth over one to three fields taking my time at killing every single strat target on the base(s). Result: no troops or sups, no dar, no ord, no DT's and 75% fuel limit.... and usually 3 or 4 kills to land.
Of course, I also advocate the introduction of the German 88mm Flak36 artillery piece to the game, which can, in addition to indirect and direct fire, can be used in the AA role as manned puffy ack up to 35K altitude.
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Originally posted by Lye-El
I like this idea! If you can't recruit a person to man a gun position...then you have a unmanned gun position.
Nobody wants to fly with you, you fly without guns. Best of both worlds! Bomber guys are happy because they can crew a bomber if they can find the people. Fighter guys are happy because if the pilot can't find people to crew all three bombers less firepower to deal with. If the Bomber pilot can find no one to fly with him the fighter guys get free kills. :D
If bomber pilots can't find enough capable gunners (most gunners in game are not capable.... they are noobs in two week trials and do noob things), then the bomber pilot does not bother to take up bombers at all.
So, either fighter faces a Death Star (and complains on Channel 200 and Forums), or does not see any easy targets. Buff drivers turn to attack planes, fighters, or find other entertainment.