Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: APDrone on March 10, 2007, 05:21:02 PM
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Greetings Combatants!
First off, the news you've all been waiting for...
Congratulations to Getmo of ! 347th Fighter Wing ! for claiming the 9 Sheep Bounty Points for tagging ROC! WTG Sir! <>
Both sides suffered massive losses this frame. Here are the numbers:
(http://www.airmageddon.com/Nightmares/CM/Frame2BDA.jpg)
Frame 2 is a narrow victory for the Axis.
Allied bomber losses were heavy and target destruction was limited to 70% for the strat targets.
Overall, a pretty evenly matched result. Congratulations everybody on a well fought frame!
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(*low whistle*)
Dang, that's close! Thanks for the handy dandy spreadsheet!
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I think those sheep need to be shared with the other 8 guys who got a piece of me, that was a Brutal Fight, friendly and enemies all over the place!
I was egressing home, fuel leak, oil on the windscreen, pressure dropping. Clear skies and I was home free. Then, the engine died at 10k alt. I flew deadstick trying to get home and keep my sheep in the barn.
Alas, gravity works and I went for a swim.
Good fights everyone, that was intense.
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I was suprised we killed that many bombers. There were still lots of them left at the end. It felt like another tough loss at the end because of the allied air control. We were fortunate to have this win. Honestly, we owe the win to timing. For a brief period, the bombers were essentially unescorted, and this is just when our heavy fighter group found them. A little too early, or a little later, they would not have had the chance to kill all those bombers. WTG 347th, and all the rest of the Axis squads. Those that worked over the enemy escort fighters, those that attacked our assigned targets, those that were assigned defense. It was a total effort.
.
Although I did not fly, it was a blast. Allies.
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There was a big fumble with coordination with the Allied fighters an bombers. For the first 30 mins no one could get a position of the B17 or B24. My squad just wandered until we found friendly bombers and gave them an escort and stuck with them. We could always improve though.
-ElD66
613th Pariah 3rd XO.
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Your squad was not a minority.. we had orders issues also.
MGD
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WOW! we pulled out a victory?? I didn't see that coming, not with the pilot count late in the frame. (like 40 vs 12, allied favor)
But we will take it!
Allied, GF!
And hats off to Tracerx! WTG skipper!:)
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Originally posted by ELD66
There was a big fumble with coordination with the Allied fighters an bombers. For the first 30 mins no one could get a position of the B17 or B24. My squad just wandered until we found friendly bombers and gave them an escort and stuck with them. We could always improve though.
-ElD66
613th Pariah 3rd XO.
Originally posted by Imoutfishing
Your squad was not a minority.. we had orders issues also.
MGD
Do you mean you couldn't cordinate your position with the time hacks and way point grid references provided on the bomber route map?
Did the bombers communicate to you on the published bomber radio channel when you querried them thier position?
I'm simply trying to determine the breakdown for future reference in planning.
Thank You,
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The orders in my estimation were ok, Though there should be an allied atantage in numbers as we fly 35+ sets of buffs. Fighter strength you LW still have us beat by close to 30 airplanes.
Vlkyrie1
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valkyrie, those extra planes are needed to attack the bombers. The bombers in the last frame accounted for 23 kills all by themselves. And that was when everything went fairly well for the Axis. I am sure that a 30 plane fighter advantage is not a big advantage when you are facing almost that many Bomber formations. Had they been Ju-88 formations or anything other than B-17's and B-24's (B-26's too) you might have an argument.
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The bomber map was a good idea but it is still easier if you give us written orders and pair up escort aircraft with a set of bombers.
I asked multiple times on both bomber and command channels and no one could give us a position where the buffs were, and when we finally did get a position it was 15-20 miles off.
-ElD66
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We had the same issue.
We never found the bombers and ended up separating our escort to look for them. 1/2 found the bombers, 1/2 found the Axis.
All in all, was a good plan. These big groups runs can be like herding cats so don't let it get ya down xXx. I think everyone had a good time.
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Yep we did have a good time. Even with the mixup.
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Great battle, but by God did my frame rate suffer when we (the 347th) first droped on the allied bomber stream.
9 FPS makes life a wee bit tricky. And the crossfire if you found yourself inside the group was murderous.
I haven't read the logs, but I'd be interested in knowing how many Allied bombers were downed or damaged by friendly fire. I know last time we flew Allied buffs in close formation there were a few...ahem...accidents.
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lol Wooley, you're kidding?? Well I know Spiked wanted to have a stern word with a wingman of his for assiting the enemy in shooting him down :rofl
As for your fps, what setup do you have?
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Honestly - last time out in Buffs one of my drones was a victim of a friendly fire incident
(and I may have lightly pinged a wingman although personaly think it was a bug in the log system). :D
My system specs are:
AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800
2GB RAM
GeForce 6800 256MB
I'm running my monitor at 1280*1024
Hardly the latest and greatest, but its no VIC20 either. I do have a new graphics card on the way though.
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Originally posted by wooley
Great battle, but by God did my frame rate suffer when we (the 347th) first droped on the allied bomber stream.
9 FPS makes life a wee bit tricky. And the crossfire if you found yourself inside the group was murderous.
I haven't read the logs, but I'd be interested in knowing how many Allied bombers were downed or damaged by friendly fire. I know last time we flew Allied buffs in close formation there were a few...ahem...accidents.
alot, only one kill, which the squaddie was awarded our SailorP award
(http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/589/perpetualsailingtrophy4ub6.jpg)
and here is the rest of our fragging
YardB
22:43:43 Helps 68LU shoot down DaddyAck.
22:44:39 Helps spIVeyCH shoot down Fedral.
madmitch
22:43:43 Helps 68LU shoot down DaddyAck.
jeb
22:45:27 Helps AKKaz shoot down YardB.
JaGerboB
22:45:27 Helps AKKaz shoot down YardB.
HarpWV68
23:00:06 Helps Sgtlead shoot down Eastwood.
gordy159
22:42:30 Helps JazzCH shoot down Eastwood.
Daddyack
22:45:35 Helps AKKaz shoot down madmitch.
we like AKKaz so we try and help him out:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by wooley
Honestly - last time out in Buffs one of my drones was a victim of a friendly fire incident
(and I may have lightly pinged a wingman although personaly think it was a bug in the log system). :D
My system specs are:
AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800
2GB RAM
GeForce 6800 256MB
I'm running my monitor at 1280*1024
Hardly the latest and greatest, but its no VIC20 either. I do have a new graphics card on the way though.
Wow that is a very similar system to mine, I run at 1600x1200 I have my detail at about 2/3rds, and my distance at about 1/2. I rarely see less than 25FPS. My CPU is not a X2, and I only have 128M for vid memory.
Specs:
Athlon 64 3200+ Venice
Asus A8V Deluxe
1gig DDR ram pc3200
Gforce 6800 OC 128meg
SATA 150 160gig
I would like to get more FPS and run my settings at max, with it set to 1600x1200. but I know I will need a better vid card, and maybe a better CPU.
What are your detail settings at?
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OK, a very quick scan of the logs shows at least 3 friendly fire kills and 6 assists on the Allied side - and those were just the names I recognised.
Seems when killshooter is off those large bomber formations are a dangerous place to be for everyone :O
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Originally posted by SLED
What are your detail settings at?
Can't remember - probably whatever the default is right now.
Bear in mind the frame drop-off was just for a couple of seconds as about 20 of us dropped in on a group of about 20-or-so sets of buffs.
Normally I'll get somewhere between 45 and 60 fps.
Also remember that although I have an X2 processor, Aces High can only make use of 1 core. A X2 3800 will probably give equivalent performance to your 3200 for gaming unless you are using one of the few games designed to make use of multi-core processors.
This probably isn't the right forum for these discussions.
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Originally posted by wooley
This probably isn't the right forum for these discussions.
Yeah, your right, I started a post over in Hardwear.
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I have,
Pentium 4 3.2 Ghz overclocked to 3.8 ghz
2GB of ram
and a 7900GTX OC 512 MB
I run at 1280x1024 Always with full view, so I can keep my 60 FPS.
You guys should try reducing your pixel from 1280*1024 and 1600x1200 to 800x600 first and 1280x 1024 second. It will drastically improve your FPS. And you will not get lag if you see multiple bombers in one place.
-ElD66
A+ certified computer technician
Certified for IBM, Sony, Dell, Apple, Cannon computer systems.
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Originally posted by xXx
Do you mean you couldn't cordinate your position with the time hacks and way point grid references provided on the bomber route map?
Did the bombers communicate to you on the published bomber radio channel when you querried them thier position?
I'm simply trying to determine the breakdown for future reference in planning.
Thank You,
Fighters assigned escort duty should be very familiar with the planned bomber route prior to takeoff. Any failure to locate the assigned bomber group rests with the leadership of the fighter squadron that got lost IF the bombers are flying the PLANNED route.
If the bombers deviate from the planned route and do not clearly communicate this to the fighters, then the bombers bear the blame.
Effective escort requires escort groups that can do more than takeoff with the bombers and maintain close visual contact. This close escort style is extremely inneffective.
Effective escort requires a layered approach with three layers of defense. The first layer is sweeping the route ahead of the bombers 3 to 10 minutes ahead, breaking up any enemy formations. This requires a level of skill most online squadrons do not possess. It requires experienced leadership capable of some serious headwork in flight.
The second layer are squadrons posted just beyond visual range of the bombers front and rear. This is an easier task although the skill level involved is significantly higher because the bombers are BVR much of the time. This layer breaks up attacks but more importantly, those in the rear of the bombers prevent an additional pass.
The most common (because it is easiest) is close escort within sight of the bombers. These are the fighter that attack the enemy in the bomber formation itself. Normally arrayed front back left and right. This is the least effective style of escort, especially if the other layers are missing.
Of course, all of this pre-supposes a detailed bomber plan for the escort to use. Deviation from the plan results in chaos for the escort. It also requires squadron capable of executing properly. A smart online commander will not try assigning anything except close escort unless he knows the squadron is up to the mission.
There are major factors in the success of an escorted bomber mission.
Number one is bomber formation quality and integrity. Sloppy formations mean poor defensive fire from the bombers themselves and a wider area for the escort to protect. Trail formations are easy pickings for attackers, allowing for multiple shots on a single pass.
Number 2 is escort discipline. A hard deck below the bombers must be established and NO escort may dive below that deck unless it is specified in the mission orders. The number one problem with escort is kill fever resulting in all the escort getting stripped by a few enemy fighters. if the enemy is smart he knows this and sends in a few fighters to strip the escort before sending in his main force. Works great in online games because we don't care if the bombers live or die....we only want the kill.
Frame 2 was planned in detail. Whether the bombers followed that plan or the fighters just couldn't find their way out of a closet I cannot answer. I wasn't there.
But I saw the plan and the problem was not the plan. The only fault is that xXx incorrectly assumed that the assigned fighter squadrons could fly to a map location at a given time and effect a rendezvous. Apparently, this most basic of military aviation tasks is beyond the scope of many squadron's capabilities.
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Originally posted by Gumbeau
Snip.....
But I saw the plan and the problem was not the plan. The only fault is that xXx incorrectly assumed that the assigned fighter squadrons could fly to a map location at a given time and effect a rendezvous. Apparently, this most basic of military aviation tasks is beyond the scope of many squadron's capabilities.
I agree the plan was good. It was well thought out and very detailed with specific instructions. Nice job xXx.
On the other hand, I take offense to being labeled inept or just plain dumb as I feel your post implies. I led a squad of 12 P51D's out of a base 25 miles south of the Bomber group's TO base. We flew at 2.5k per minute climb to the very RP that we were instructed. Guess what? Not one bomber was there. I asked for confirmation from xXx himself on the RP. We were in the right area at roughly the right time. We had many friendly fighters close but no bombers. 8 of our pilots turned and went south looking for the group. Myself and 3 of my pilots continued north as I was sure we were ahead of the formation and my other 8 man group would find them. I'm not sure if they found them behind us because we were thrust directly into the attacking German force. It was 20 vs 4, very quick. I believe, had we turned with the rest of our squad, that German flight would have decimated our bomber formation WAY before it actually reached the targets. We essentially, accidentally, became a fighter sweep. We took that flight to the deck long enough for the bombers to pass over.
I agree with the plan you have outlined as the "right way" to escort bombers. It sounds very disciplined, serious and a heck of a good time. But don't assume that because we didn't do it this way that "this most basic of military aviation tasks is beyond the scope of many squadron's capabilities". That's not fair to the people who put in many, many hours making this event fun for everyone.
Sir :)
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I guess the fact that the Axis put some of their best pilots out there to engage the enemy escorts doesn't matter much? The Axis did a pretty good job of following their plan in frame 2, which was designed to strip off the escorting fighters. I agree that there may have been some miss communication on forming up, but even if they had grouped up with the bombers in time, the Axis was still there in place to disrupt the escorting fighters. They still would have had their hands full with 3 solid fighter squads backed up by an even larger 4th.
I am not trying to dispell any of your arguments Gumbeau, but don't forget that the enemy is also pretty clever, and are working on breaking up the kind of defense you are describing. The Allies still did very well last frame anyway. The Axis airforce was in shambles by the end. Obviously something worked well.
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I agree Tracer.
That wave that we ran into by accident really put us to the test. It did what you planned. It took us to the deck and away from the bombers, had they been with us. That first group had no idea that the bombers werent behind us. They did their job and did it in a fine manner.
Tracer
Lunch on Monday, I'll call ya around 10:30a
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Well, regardless of the capabilities of the parties involved, over the years I have seen very few planned in flight rendezvous work properly in FSO. Thats why I don't plan them when I'm CiC.
Basically, for fso, keep it simple, thats what makes a successful plan. Keep squads with their own men. Some squads are very good at coordinating with other squads, some simply won't do it. Some become pushy... So as a general rule, I don't ask for anything more than the most basic communication between squads, such as locating bogey's. The more intra-squad interaction the plan requires the more likely it is to get jacked up. Thats not a statement about anyone's skill, its just the way FSO goes down.
When they drop the green flag at the beginning of the FSO, you just hope that all the C.O's read the order and basically understand it, because from that moment on, they are going to go pure chaos. People get too busy to type on command, the fog of war takes over and facts are hard to find...
Thats FSO... Thats war.
Simplicity always wins over complexity.