Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: hogenbor on March 12, 2007, 03:48:03 AM
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Went to the Airborne museum in Best (near Eindhoven, The Netherlands) yesterday. It is dedicated mainly to the events around operation Market Garden. They really cleaned the place up since the last time I was there and there was some interesting new hardware on display as well.
In a new hall there was some various stuff lumped together, a deuce-and-a-half, a post war artillery tractor, a Swiss tank (forgot the type), a T-34 recovery tank, some type of double barrelled small calibre AA gun. I also saw this gun:
(http://members.chello.nl/~r.hogenboom/temp/DSC_4243.jpg)
It looked fresly restored to me but I know virtually nothing about guns. It also has a desert camouflage paint job, contrasting the green stuff around it. Couldn't come close enough to read the dials and markings either.
So, who can tell? Shouldn't take long :D
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That is a German 88mm Flak. Here is a link with a bunch more pictures from that museum when they restored it.
88mm Flak pics (http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images/view?back=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3D88mm%2Bflak%26toggle%3D1%26ei%3DUTF-8%26fr%3Dyfp-t-501%26b%3D21&w=1280&h=853&imgurl=walkarounds.airforce.ru%2Fartillery%2Fgermany%2Fflak88%2Fds_flak88-18-37%2520%286%29.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwalkarounds.airforce.ru%2Fartillery%2Fgermany%2Fflak88&size=252.3kB&name=ds_flak88-18-37+%286%29.jpg&p=88mm+flak&type=jpeg&no=33&tt=733&oid=1f6646c7a352cb42&ei=UTF-8)
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The dood lookin' out teh APC made me LoLLz!!
He should be captioned, "88? O RLY??"
:rofl
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Thanks Hornet, that's great! And fast too :)
I thought it might be an 88, but the sheer size of the 155 howitzer behind it made me wonder. I somehow imagined it bigger, although I have seen them before.
There's a hall there too dedicated to the Eastern front, as seen from the Russian side. Has a T-34, a Hetzer and a Katusja rocket launcher in it.
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Yeah that's a "Long Tom" 155mm US Howitzer in the background. Awsome piece of artillery there.
They did a great job restoring that Flak. That was probably one of the most lethal and versatile guns in WWII. It was used as an anti aircraft, anti tank, field artillery, and main tank gun by the Germans. The "88" could do it all very well. That particular set up in the museum could be used as AAA, anti tank, and field artillery all at the same time. Just depended on what type of round they fired. That's also the same gun they mounted in the Tiger tank.
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Ok then, another question for you, now we're at it ;) Do you know anything about this aircraft? Yes, I know what it is, it happens to be my favourite kind of aircraft and it was the actual reason I went there.
(http://members.chello.nl/~r.hogenboom/temp/DSC_4226.jpg)
(http://members.chello.nl/~r.hogenboom/temp/DSC_4233.jpg)
Couldn't find any info on this particular C-47. The other one in the museum is pretty well documented though. Did a quick google search but found nothing so far.
It looks in pretty bad shape but it hasn't been at the museum that long. Found some pics from around 2000 and it wasn't there yet back then.
It has no engines, several windows are broken and it looks like it had a nasty accident, looking at the wrinkled skin near the tail.
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do you have a better pic of the tail, kinda hard to read the tail number.
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Here ya go:
(http://members.chello.nl/~r.hogenboom/temp/DSC_4334.jpg)
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C-47?:noid
Edit:didnt see that he already said C-47 my bad:confused:
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L4 was the code for the 91st Troop Carrier Squadron , 439th Troop Carrier Group, 9th AF.
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Next time you are there, on the rear left side underneath the horizontal stab - look for the Data Plate.
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(http://members.optusnet.com.au/vstrom/Wife%20Ack.JPG)
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[SIZE=30]LOL[/SIZE]
The Mussie strikes again :D
Now go and work on the interview!
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well until you get the info from the data plate there is this. google is your good buddy
uncertain how old this information is, also it possible that the plane isnt painted to match its actual history. (that maynot make sense
http://home.planet.nl/~raaph019/dakotas-europe.html
2100847
The Victory Memorial Museum in Arlon is closed but the Dakota is still mounted on a pole nearby the motorway to Luxembourg. This former USAAF 44-76787 (c/n 33119/16371) is in a bad condition and its future is uncertain. Before the Dakota came to Arlon, it was stored for some years on the airfield Toulouse Blagnac in southern France where it was carrying the registration F-BAIF.
another link
http://www.ruudleeuw.com/dc3-best.htm scroll about half way down
C-47B, msn 16371/33119
Next to "Darlin' Dorien" sits C-47B 2100847 (L4 B). This Douglas C-47B was delivered to the USAAF (44-76787) on 24Apr45 and was transferred that same year to the French Air Force as 476787.
It was issued a civilian registration F-BAIF again that same year. Air France started operating it in 1946. It must have served for a long time, as it was registered in 1970 to Fretair. By April 1973 it was registered to "Ste Uni-Air" and this probably lasted till 1978. In May 1981 we find it stored at Toulouse-Blagnac, France.
At some unknown date it was moved from Toulouse to Arlon/Hondelage (Belgium) for the Victory Memorial Museum and was marked with a fictitious "2100847". The msueum was closed in 1998 due lack of sufficient visitors.
It remained on its pole, beside highway E25 (near Luxembourg), till the Logistics Department of the Dutch Air Force brought it to the Museum at Best during the night of 25th and 26th of February, 2002.
The gear is gone and the museum hopes to continue the restoration of this C-47B with parts from G-AMPP (below). Apparently this aircraft is not much more than a shell.
and somemore info
F-BAIF 16371/33119 Preserved by Victory Memorial Museum at Arlon as 2100847.
http://www.dc3history.org/cns/cns.htm
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found some more stuff
http://www.centercomp.com/cgi-bin/dc3/gallery?904
3rd pic down is of same plane when it was on the poles near E25
I'll just bet that the damage you see around the rear of the fuselage and rudder happened when they took it down from those poles
http://www.centercomp.com/cgi-bin/dc3/gallery?975
much better pic here of the plane and it appears the plane is undamaged at this point.
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man this is fun, found more stuff
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=356009
http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?uploaddatesearch=2004-06-13
go little more than half way down, you'll see it
42-100847 / L4-B (cn 33119/16371) Preserved at the "Bevrijdende Vleugels" museum in Best, Holland, to remind us of D-day, this weekend 60 years ago. Has fake serials, it is ex F-BAIF, FAF 76787, USAAF 44-76787.
http://www.vankaathoven.nu/Noord%20Brabant.HTM
http://www.danger-zone.fotografeert.nl/homepage/show/pagina.php?paginaid=222220
http://www.dc3history.org/cns/cn16343w33091.htm
16371/33119 44-76787 D24Apr45 - 476787 French AF GT2/15 20May45 - F-BAIF SGACC Aug45 - Air France R02Apr46 - Fretair Feb70 - Ste Uni-AirApr73 - (Jul78) - Wfu at Toulouse/Blagnac May81.
http://www.demobbed.org.uk/images/44-76787.jpg
http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/usafreferences.html
E-mail from Willy Henderickx on 41-217, 44-76787, 43-49728.
http://www.warbirdregistry.org/dc3registry/dak-33119.html
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I love this stuff.
http://www.aerotransport.org/spooled/atdb_registrations_148.html
find 44-76787, follow the instructions and click away.
Airframes Profile for: DC-3 msn 33119
1 airframe found - [ Generate Excel ]
Type MSN s/n Engines Built Reg'n Operator IATA Status
C-47B-DK 33119 F-BAIF Uni-Air UF Preserved
Data in section above last updated on 11-Dec-2004 - [ Submit change ]
A single airframe was found. History provided below:
Airframe History of: DC-3 msn 33119
History records 1-5 of 5 - [ Generate Excel ]
Reg'n Type MSN Operator Owners Origin In Out Fate/Became Remarks
44-76787 C-47B-DK 33119 U S AF to FAF 476787
476787 C-47B-DK 33119 Armée de l'Air ex 44-76787
U S AF to Air France F-BAIF
F-BAIF C-47B-DK 33119 Air France ex
FAF 76787 to Fretair
F-BAIF C-47B-DK 33119 Fretair ex
FAF 76787 to Uni-Air
F-BAIF C-47B-DK 33119 Uni-Air ex
FAF 76787 Preserved Best,Eindhoven (Wings of Liberation Museum/Bevrijdende Vleugels, moved from Victory Memorial Museum at Aarlon,E-25,Belgium, as "2100847"/"L4-B") reported at one point as registered F-BIEE and w/o 27/7/78 between Catania and Brindisi (missing): obvious fake acciden possibly for insurance claims
Data in section above last updated on 11-Dec-2004 - [ Submit change ]
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Man, you obviously enjoyed doing that. So it has a chequered history, and the registration is fake.
I also found a bit more myself but most of the info is the same as you also found. Thanks for retrieving the completel history of this aircraft!
See the strides the museum has made in recent history I sure hope they find funds to restore it to a somewhat better looking exhibit. All those years outside in the rainy climate we have here can't be good. And how the hell did they get those holes in the windows?
To me the DC-3 is the first truly modern aircraft and it has an elegance youy simply cannot find anymore. Ah well. If I had John Travolta's money I'd buy it and restore it and fly it on Sundays ;)
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I'd fly it at other days too ;)
Nice to see there's so much information around about 1 single aircraft!
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Originally posted by frank3
I'd fly it at other days too ;)
Nice to see there's so much information around about 1 single aircraft!
I would guess theres at least as much or equal information about alot of the old warbirds. I had a link at one time for a Hawker Typhoon/Tempest website that had info on a bunch of Tempest in flyable and non-flyable condition, some right down to just a pile of parts.
if you look at just the warbird registry they have info on a lot of planes
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/
thats as good a place to start as any other. If you have at least a tail number, even if its fictious or or incorrect for the plane you can probably still find the correct info because someone out there in the big wide gubernet has taken the time to research some of it.
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Airscrew,
Your not some type of private investigator, are you?
I'd darn sure hate to have you looking for me... :D
That is some great detective work.
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Originally posted by HB555
Airscrew,
Your not some type of private investigator, are you?
I'd darn sure hate to have you looking for me... :D
That is some great detective work.
:noid
Here's the tempest page http://www.hawkertempest.se/today.htm
it really not that hard, I googled C-47 2100847, I got hits that led me to the museum website and some of those other places. From them I got the plane's real tail number 44-76787. using that I restarted my search in google and got more hits which got me c/n 33119/16371. I then search again using that. it just depends how much information you are looking for and how much time you have. all that searching I did for that C-47 took about 30 minutes to find including updating it here.
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Just the same, I am not going to bother changing my name or SSA if I ever decide to rob banks for a living. :D
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Originally posted by HB555
Just the same, I am not going to bother changing my name or SSA if I ever decide to rob banks for a living. :D
I bet if I had your phone number I could get your name and address and maybe even your county property tax records in less than an hour, and I wouldnt have to call the phone company either, just depends on what state you're in and who your phone provider is...
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Not a doubt in my mind that that is possible.
I looked me up one night and the information readilly and freely available is frightening.
Got to run, on the phone to service provider cancelling my phone. :lol
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Originally posted by hogenbor
And how the hell did they get those holes in the windows?
probably some kids shooting it with something
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Originally posted by nickf620
probably some kids shooting it with something
Unlike in the USA, guns are prohibited in the Netherlands :aok
I'm guessing it was a thrown rock (or actual battle damage?! :O )
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Originally posted by frank3
(or actual battle damage?! :O )
Apparently the aircraft was operated by two or three airlines. You figure they'd fix them but hell...they were French afterall. :D
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Originally posted by frank3
Unlike in the USA, guns are prohibited in the Netherlands :aok
I'm guessing it was a thrown rock (or actual battle damage?! :O )
hard to say excatly what might have happened. I look at all those links again and on one pic http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=356009 the windows are still in good shape and this was after it was moved to Best. also if you compare that picture to HB's pic then it would appear that the plane has been moved around some and either the damage accured while moving it or vandals.
I wouldnt image battle damage anyway based on the fact the plane wasnt issued overseas until late April 45 and probably was never used operationally by USAAF and then was given to the French in 46 and then convert to a civilian airliner or for freight.
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Originally posted by frank3
Unlike in the USA, guns are prohibited in the Netherlands :aok
I'm guessing it was a thrown rock (or actual battle damage?! :O )
ohhhh huh didnt know that
man netherlands must suck :aok jk
how bout bb guns (looks at the picture) a large caliber bb gun
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Originally posted by nickf620
ohhhh huh didnt know that
man netherlands must suck :aok jk
how bout bb guns (looks at the picture) a large caliber bb gun
Well, if you really want to you can become a member of a 'gunclub' (insert correct English phrase here) where you can practice your marksmanship, but it's confined to shooting ranges only and subject to a lot of rules. You CAN own a registered gun after you have been a member for a year if I remember correctly, but you are only allowed to bring it to the club (or a shooting event) and back. You can shoot with everything from day one if the club allows you to however.
How do I know all this? Well, I had a shooting range practically in my back yard and a friend used to be a sports shooter who actually made it to the Dutch championships. They also taught him to shoot an intruder first, then fire a round into the ceiling. Police will have a hard time proving that you didn't fire a warning shot first :D
As for the holes in the C-47's windows, it is entirely possible that some kids shot at it with a BB gun, it's not that hard to climb over the fence of the museum. I also noticed a LOT of new shiny padlocks and expensive, new security systems which were not present the last time I was there so maybe they had trouble with vandalism.