Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: abc123 on March 13, 2007, 12:02:55 AM
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Does do most people consider ho's dumb/stupid/dweebish? I don't even have the game yet, so don't try to pin me as a ho supporter/enthusiast lol.
Thanks
oh and whats a toolshedder?
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EEEEKKKKK! Not another HO thread.
HO's are legal in some municipalities. :D
Toolshedder = victim, as they usually battle undefended buildings and wilt at the slightest hint of opposition...or is that a milk-runner? I forgets. :rolleyes:
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When you fly to position yourself for a head on attack, you are putting yourself infront of your enemies guns.
I am reasonably confident that putting yourself in front of your opponents guns is a bad idea. I always thought the point of a dogfight was to get your guns on your enemy while avoiding theirs.
It's just an all around "not very smart" thing to do. (unless you don't mind takin' damage and/or dyin' cheaply. then it would be ok)
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Toolshedders in general attack ground targets, typically strat objects on airfields (hangars, ordinance, troops, etc).
However, this can be confusing as there's a couple different types of guys all lumped in with toolshedders:
The milkrunners like to hit undefended bases without opposition, then either run home before the enemy can up a defense or capture the base before anyone knows what's happened. Of course, there's also a measure of "sour grapes" in the tossing around of this label because it's always possible for a couple guys to tear away from the general furball to intercept these raids...but god forbid they do THAT.
Pork dweebs/pork-n-go dweebs zip through a defended base in fast cannon-armed birds (generally ElGay-7s, Typhoons or Tempests, Doras, etc) or other fast birds with decent ordinance loads (P-51 being one of the more notorious of these) to pop dar, ords, troops, etc., or grab a quick vulch or two, then jump to hyperspace and run like hell from wary opponents, or enemies otherwise in a position to engage.
Then you have the guys who cut their ordinance loose and remain in the fight to either beat down enemy cap or continue to hit ground targets with guns. You can usually tell them apart from the pork dweebs by their choice of ride: You don't see nearly as many pork-n-go sorties by F6Fs, F4Us, P-47s, P-38s (to a lesser extent), Mosquitoes or Bf-110s. They generally stick around and either engage the cap or continue guns passes.
As for the HO, it's considered a deebish tactic because there's very little skill in pointing yourself directly at your opponent on the initial merge and opening fire from 1k out in hopes he blows up before you both collide.
That being said, as much "disdain" as it receive on the boards I've had an opponent try to take the shot in a HO situation on initial merge probably about 90% of the time, (and this includes some vets who've sworn they never HO in here) and some planes are especially notorious for forcing HOs almost at will (Hurricane 2C, N1Ks, pretty much any Spit). So in all honesty, don't TRY to go for it, but if your opponent won't give you any other option take the shot (you can always try to roll yourself just enough out of phase it becomes a deflection shot and not a true HO).
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Wow, he doesn't even have the game, and he's asking about HOs, what's dweebish, and toolshedders.
That's a good troll. :rolleyes:
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Or he wants to educate himself before he jumps in so he knows what to avoid.
I try to be optimistic about these kinds of things.
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Dogfights are like being in the Lav with George Michael. You don't want to be the one in front if you can possibly help it. After months of practice you should be able to twist and turn to reverse you positions and make sure George is in front of you, where the least damage can be done. Some people circumvent this and it is bad. Standing toe to toe both they and George end up with the other guys pee on their nice leather chaps.
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i was gunna type something but pissed myself laughing at that analogy instead.
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Stink bait.
HO = Someone who does not / cannot dogfight.
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Ho ?
One of the more undefined terms i've heard. I'm sure there are one
thousand opinions about this. Opinion is a statement offered without
evidence.
Evidence seems to say this did happen and was used as a fighter
tactic in some units. "The Fighting Tigers" for one. Allied Planes were
for the most part designed for a High speed Pass to inflict Heavy firepower
in large groups ... then speed away to safety.
Rule one for me is... to Always bring my guns upon the opponent
before they do to me.
Just like the Sport of Boxing, if i can get my jab in first and get out
of the way of theirs ....Yes ! If I can not hit first I will dance out
of the way. Sometimes one will dance right into the oncoming
danger. So there is some skill and a mix of luck.
To say that it is an unwritten rule to fly past your opponent and
give a cheery wave before the battle of the sixes begins NOT ME !
Give me a target and I will take it ! :D
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Well, there is HO, and then there is HO.
Say, if you fly Spit (Hurr2, N1K, etc), HO everyone and run to repeat later - its true lame. Why? Because every monkey can do it, no need to brain, no need to skill.
But if you in 190 (Typhoon) agaist spit and dont have alt advantage - hell, i dont know what else can be done (unless run far far away and climb). It still dumb but has some justifications at least. That why i dont like to fly such planes.
Or if you fight 1 vs many, HO can be valid tactics for you (but very wrong for them), because you dont have too much chances to get somebody's 6, most probably (and if you good enough to get 1's 6, he will drag you so others can shoot you down).
Or if you turnfight against better turning plane, after you loose speed HO can be best you can achieve, so it valid as well.
P.S. And dont forget - the one who cry after HO is one who did HO and loose it.
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Originally posted by DLfrmHLL
Ho ?
One of the more undefined terms i've heard. I'm sure there are one
thousand opinions about this. Opinion is a statement offered without
evidence.
Evidence seems to say this did happen and was used as a fighter
tactic in some units. "The Fighting Tigers" for one. Allied Planes were
for the most part designed for a High speed Pass to inflict Heavy firepower
in large groups ... then speed away to safety.
Rule one for me is... to Always bring my guns upon the opponent
before they do to me.
Just like the Sport of Boxing, if i can get my jab in first and get out
of the way of theirs ....Yes ! If I can not hit first I will dance out
of the way. Sometimes one will dance right into the oncoming
danger. So there is some skill and a mix of luck.
To say that it is an unwritten rule to fly past your opponent and
give a cheery wave before the battle of the sixes begins NOT ME !
Give me a target and I will take it ! :D
1)You are not a flying tiger.
2)Yes, they took head on shots, but it is looked down on in this game because it takes absolutely no skill.
3)The reality is, your kill to death % will rise if you avoid head on situation and learn to fight.
4) This is not boxing.
5) There is no such thing as luck in a 1v1.
6)You are delusional if you think we, by not taking a head on, are advocating flying past an opponent with no intention of beating the watermelon outta them.
7)"A kill is a kill" is the slogan of someone who is too hardheaded and lazy to learn how to fight.
8) If you would like to learn a couple things PM/Email/ or contact me in game. I would be happy to help.:aok
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HO's are bad becuase they are dirty and you get diseases from them.
Plus sometimes they are undercover cops
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Even some of the vets around here consider any shot not on dead 6 a HO. I can name a few folks who constantly complain about HO's in the game when they have not been HOed.
If you see the plane From The top, belly or siDEs it is not a HO whatEver the Pilot says. :)
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lol Nilsen, deepbanana still crying everything is a ho?
some things never change.
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:D
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They aren't bad, they made up the majority of my lays in college.
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They aren't bad, they just piss off people who don't avoid them. I'm one of the forever n00bs of the game who will take any shot because 1) I suck 2) You never know when the next shot will come. I don't try to HO, but if the opportunity reveals itself then the gloves are off and the bullets are flying.
Fly how you want, fly what you like, who cares what the other guy thinks :aok
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Lets take "Game" out and put in "Real" for a moment. Use the imagination
if needed. In real life Air Combat I do not think there are rules. Some
Guidelines for a better chance of survival yes, HO not a perfered attack
style, but it was not ignored.
1 We r not Flying Tigers. The ones who ho-ed and came back to tell r.
2 Might b looked down upon in a game, but not by the real pilots. I
would think it takes more skill to shoot the enemy first and b out of
the way than to test fate in the six o'clock dance. Tell us then, when
two pilots collide who is the less skilled pilot?
3 Boxing, hunting, and War are sport, enter the chance of death.
No one has ever died playing the game of ping pong.
4 Reality is that there is no such thing as Kill to Death ratio for one
pilot.
5 I know the "Luck" word is used by many pilots here to describe their
outcomes, and very possibly used by the real pilots too.
6 It is delusional to think a Zeke pilot would let a p40 fly right by
and through thier sights knowing they r not going to turn and fight.
7 A "Kill is a Kill" more possibly the slogan of ones who retuned alive.
8 Learning is what its all about. and for some of us its a better lesson
when we take the "Game" out of it.
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Originally posted by DLfrmHLL
Lets take "Game" out and put in "Real" for a moment. Use the imagination
if needed. In real life Air Combat I do not think there are rules. Some
Guidelines for a better chance of survival yes, HO not a perfered attack
style, but it was not ignored.
1 We r not Flying Tigers. The ones who ho-ed and came back to tell r.
2 Might b looked down upon in a game, but not by the real pilots. I
would think it takes more skill to shoot the enemy first and b out of
the way than to test fate in the six o'clock dance. Tell us then, when
two pilots collide who is the less skilled pilot?
3 Boxing, hunting, and War are sport, enter the chance of death.
No one has ever died playing the game of ping pong.
4 Reality is that there is no such thing as Kill to Death ratio for one
pilot.
5 I know the "Luck" word is used by many pilots here to describe their
outcomes, and very possibly used by the real pilots too.
6 It is delusional to think a Zeke pilot would let a p40 fly right by
and through thier sights knowing they r not going to turn and fight.
7 A "Kill is a Kill" more possibly the slogan of ones who retuned alive.
8 Learning is what its all about. and for some of us its a better lesson
when we take the "Game" out of it.
My response was based on my experience in Aces High II.
I don't deny that head on shots were taken. The difference being, they had the whole "dead" thing to worry about, we don't.
Try differentiating between this game and real life. The game is much more fun for everyone that way.
Good Luck*
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Even some of the vets around here consider any shot not on dead 6 a HO. I can name a few folks who constantly complain about HO's in the game when they have not been HOed.
If you see the plane From The top, belly or siDEs it is not a HO whatEver the Pilot says. :)
That's funny, and I agree :rofl
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......... because most of them are drug addicts, and have a high percentage of carrying a disease. They also tend to have mental problems.
:lol
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HO's are bad only when you lose. I have never seen anyone on 200 complain about an HO they won. It takes two to HO.
My approach to HO's is: If they try to avoid it I shoot. If they go for the shot I try to avoid them. Seems to work for me.
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Heh, i remember my first HO, it was also my first kill, tho i dead too hehe. I spotted the enemy on radar and pointed my nose at him, he did the same. We flew straight at each other for 10 miles and then flew right into eachothers guns. I thought i was good hehe. :lol
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Does do most people consider ho's dumb/stupid/dweebish? I don't even have the game yet, so don't try to pin me as a ho supporter/enthusiast lol.
Because the HO we refer to in the MA is usually a direct result of lack of skill.
There are a few situations where HO's are considered "logical". For instance, when you are outnumbered, taking a HO shot to quickly remove one of the opponents may help save your life. Or, when your plane outguns the opponent by far, and is deemed a tough plane, then it is very likely you'll be the victor when a HO happens.
However, no matter how 'logical' it may be, ultimately the HO is embedded with a luck factor you cannot control. You could do all you can do about HOs perfectly, and still if the opponent lands a good shot on you then you are going down. No matter how well you fly, when a HO happens the results are always influenced by the other guy. This, according to the fundamentals of aerial combat, is totally unacceptable.
The problem is, in the MA, people do not have to cope with the "death/fear" factor the real life pilots had. Therefore, sometimes they fly very wrecklessly. This means by getting in a plane with a good turning ability, they can just pull maximum turns everytime and try to meet every enemy movement by turning into him, facing him forward, bearing guns at his face in a HO run. Sometimes these newbies don't know any better, sometimes its intentional. Whatever the reasons there may be, one thing for certain is that these HO attempts always have the same results: the HO kills the "skill factor" and brings in the "luck factor".
No matter how superior pilot the other guy may be, if you can always meet him in a HO angle then it always comes down to luck (if the other guy decides to take a shot in that angle also). That's why veteran pilots hate HO attempts - it's a purely gamey way of thinking, with no respect whatsoever towards the theory and science of aerial combat maneuvering.
I agree to the general premise that "it takes TWO to HO". However, when a newbie in his favorite Schitfire follows you around, and then does nothing but max turns everytime to force a HO angle, it gets really, really frustrating. I'm trying to win this fight without getting shot at, but the other guy doesn't care if he gets shot or not. All he cares is bearing the guns on me, and getting a chance to pull the trigger. That's why people hate it.
oh and whats a toolshedder?
In the early days, the term "toolshedder" was used by the furball folk against the strat folk. But nowadays it's a term more associated with the armageddon locust hordes in the game - the huge swarm of bad guys who only appear at undefended fields and fronts, and choose to blitzkrieg that area of the map by fighting ground objects, rather than actually meeting the enemy in the air.
The typical toolshedder tends to just disband the horde and disappear when an opposition of similar magnitude rises. When they can't just milkrun fields to their liking, they just go away, give up the fight, and then reform the swarm horde at some other undefended area of the map, and then go busting "toolsheds" in that undefended field.
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Now that I don't have to start another HO thread......
I'm still fairly new to the game and during my two week trial period I read as much of the forums and other sites as I could to learn what was allowed, considered o.k., considered cheating, etc..... For two months now, I've tried to avoid HOing. I've turned, dove, climbed and turned up on one wing to bypass only to get peppered or at least shot at. If you try to avoid too early, they can turn to get a shot off. If you try and avoid too late, they shoot or you collide.
Now, I ask.......Should I start HOing, or continue to be an easy target?
It's very frustrating when trying to learn to fly and fight by what is considered "OK" only to see others take advantage of it.
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Hedworx, go the the training arena and work with the trainers. I *guarantee* after an hour of work with them you'll find that you need never take the HO in any fighter, and that you can always turn your opponents attempt to your advantage.
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Originally posted by Hedworx
Now that I don't have to start another HO thread......
I'm still fairly new to the game and during my two week trial period I read as much of the forums and other sites as I could to learn what was allowed, considered o.k., considered cheating, etc..... For two months now, I've tried to avoid HOing. I've turned, dove, climbed and turned up on one wing to bypass only to get peppered or at least shot at. If you try to avoid too early, they can turn to get a shot off. If you try and avoid too late, they shoot or you collide.
Now, I ask.......Should I start HOing, or continue to be an easy target?
It's very frustrating when trying to learn to fly and fight by what is considered "OK" only to see others take advantage of it.
I am only a few months into the game and have learned to avoid most initial merge HO's. I usually duck under them as it's harder for them to go negitive G's to get the shot.
The best advise I can give is avoid a HO early, maybe 4K plus out. Once you have a better feel for the game you will learn you can avoid a HO before it's a HO.
My feeling is it's like a fist fight, it takes two to tango... My rule is never go straight at someone's front. Look for a way to get on THEIR 6...
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You read the posts from the anti HO’er out there, one might actually start to believe that No one ever HO’s in this game.
Fact is, takes two to HO. Somebody wants to place his aircraft directly in front of my guns. I’ll fire. Weather that’s from 12 Oclock or 6 Oclock or anywhere in between it’s all good.
I’ll side slip out to the right side and at the last second swing my nose back in with rudder for the snap shot, as the nme continues to hold his course to make what he thinks is a close pass on my left side. Just to realize that my tracers are off and he’s got a face full of lead.
I loved it when one guy that I HO’d three times in a row came up on vox to complain that I had no skill. He had just been shot down in an HO, remember it takes two to HO, for the third time and according to him, I had no skill. He in his light F4U-1C and me in my Heavy P38L and I had no skill. I finally put my eggs on his CV and RTB’ed.
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Originally posted by Traveler
Fact is, takes two to HO.
New guy, don't buy into this hype. The truth of the matter is that it takes two to merge, only one to make the merge a HO.
This traveler fellow would lead you to believe that the HO is some kind of skilled ACM. Please do not be lulled into this form of gameplay. Your skill development will suffer and you too, could be forced to rely on this coin toss of a tactic.
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Originally posted by TinmanX
Dogfights are like being in the Lav with George Michael. You don't want to be the one in front if you can possibly help it. After months of practice you should be able to twist and turn to reverse you positions and make sure George is in front of you, where the least damage can be done. Some people circumvent this and it is bad. Standing toe to toe both they and George end up with the other guys pee on their nice leather chaps.
What you guys don't realize is, Tinman speaks from experience here.
True, literal, experience.
:D
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Ive been playing the game for a few years now, and only fairly recently have I become skilled enough to estimate my opponents E state to properly execute a rope.
Sometimes it works out great and just as I turn in the vertical, he has run out of E and is hanging usually with his belly up and I let him have it.
Othertimes, I run out of E and have to turn over while he is still facing me, so we end up face to face in the vertical.
Is this considered a HO?
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Fighter tactics are not laws, and pilots are not "knights of the sky."
They are cloak and dagger, kick you while your down, sneaky premadonnas<====,,
ANyways, somtimes your so low on E that the only thing you CAN do is point and fire head-on.....im not going to show you my belly at the top of a loop, im going to face you...,,if one of the the two HO'ers pulls out, then there will be no collision....its MUTUAL!!!!!!!
often times the diving apponent lets his fangs hang a bit to far out instead of trying for a second pass,...
ok, so in closing, A HO'r, {as almost any pilot at one time or another will accuse the winner of being} aint cheating,its a valid tactic, and I dont really care if you disagree:aok
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Because the HO we refer to in the MA is usually a direct result of lack of skill.
There are a few situations where HO's are considered "logical". For instance, when you are outnumbered, taking a HO shot to quickly remove one of the opponents may help save your life. Or, when your plane outguns the opponent by far, and is deemed a tough plane, then it is very likely you'll be the victor when a HO happens.
However, no matter how 'logical' it may be, ultimately the HO is embedded with a luck factor you cannot control. You could do all you can do about HOs perfectly, and still if the opponent lands a good shot on you then you are going down. No matter how well you fly, when a HO happens the results are always influenced by the other guy. This, according to the fundamentals of aerial combat, is totally unacceptable.
The problem is, in the MA, people do not have to cope with the "death/fear" factor the real life pilots had. Therefore, sometimes they fly very wrecklessly. This means by getting in a plane with a good turning ability, they can just pull maximum turns everytime and try to meet every enemy movement by turning into him, facing him forward, bearing guns at his face in a HO run. Sometimes these newbies don't know any better, sometimes its intentional. Whatever the reasons there may be, one thing for certain is that these HO attempts always have the same results: the HO kills the "skill factor" and brings in the "luck factor".
No matter how superior pilot the other guy may be, if you can always meet him in a HO angle then it always comes down to luck (if the other guy decides to take a shot in that angle also). That's why veteran pilots hate HO attempts - it's a purely gamey way of thinking, with no respect whatsoever towards the theory and science of aerial combat maneuvering.
I agree to the general premise that "it takes TWO to HO". However, when a newbie in his favorite Schitfire follows you around, and then does nothing but max turns everytime to force a HO angle, it gets really, really frustrating. I'm trying to win this fight without getting shot at, but the other guy doesn't care if he gets shot or not. All he cares is bearing the guns on me, and getting a chance to pull the trigger. That's why people hate it.
Damn, that pretty much sums it up to the TEE............:aok
dangit all Kweassa, i play hell trying to click on the underlined words , guess am too use to links , rofl..... :D
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Wow, he doesn't even have the game, and he's asking about HOs, what's dweebish, and toolshedders.
That's a good troll. :rolleyes:
Da** right, I don't remember this tack being taken yet.
Starts at an 8 for me.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
New guy, don't buy into this hype. The truth of the matter is that it takes two to merge, only one to make the merge a HO.
This traveler fellow would lead you to believe that the HO is some kind of skilled ACM. Please do not be lulled into this form of gameplay. Your skill development will suffer and you too, could be forced to rely on this coin toss of a tactic.
I've never been in a HO that I didn't choose to participate in. Not necessarily instigate, but participate in. If you have any SA at all, you know when a guy is lining for the HO, it's easy to manuever out of the way, if you wish.
The guys that cry about it are generally the guys that lost, the guys that avoid it have no reason to comment as they are on to better things.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
New guy, don't buy into this hype. The truth of the matter is that it takes two to merge, only one to make the merge a HO.
This traveler fellow would lead you to believe that the HO is some kind of skilled ACM. Please do not be lulled into this form of gameplay. Your skill development will suffer and you too, could be forced to rely on this coin toss of a tactic.
You need to learn to read something without reading into it, I never said that the HO was a skilled ACM. I said that it take two to HO and if some one wants to put his aircraft directly in line with my guns, I'll take the shot.
Wouldn't you?
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Because the HO we refer to in the MA is usually a direct result of lack of skill.
There are a few situations where HO's are considered "logical". For instance, when you are outnumbered, taking a HO shot to quickly remove one of the opponents may help save your life. Or, when your plane outguns the opponent by far, and is deemed a tough plane, then it is very likely you'll be the victor when a HO happens.
However, no matter how 'logical' it may be, ultimately the HO is embedded with a luck factor you cannot control. You could do all you can do about HOs perfectly, and still if the opponent lands a good shot on you then you are going down. No matter how well you fly, when a HO happens the results are always influenced by the other guy. This, according to the fundamentals of aerial combat, is totally unacceptable.
The problem is, in the MA, people do not have to cope with the "death/fear" factor the real life pilots had. Therefore, sometimes they fly very wrecklessly. This means by getting in a plane with a good turning ability, they can just pull maximum turns everytime and try to meet every enemy movement by turning into him, facing him forward, bearing guns at his face in a HO run. Sometimes these newbies don't know any better, sometimes its intentional. Whatever the reasons there may be, one thing for certain is that these HO attempts always have the same results: the HO kills the "skill factor" and brings in the "luck factor".
No matter how superior pilot the other guy may be, if you can always meet him in a HO angle then it always comes down to luck (if the other guy decides to take a shot in that angle also). That's why veteran pilots hate HO attempts - it's a purely gamey way of thinking, with no respect whatsoever towards the theory and science of aerial combat maneuvering.
I agree to the general premise that "it takes TWO to HO". However, when a newbie in his favorite Schitfire follows you around, and then does nothing but max turns everytime to force a HO angle, it gets really, really frustrating. I'm trying to win this fight without getting shot at, but the other guy doesn't care if he gets shot or not. All he cares is bearing the guns on me, and getting a chance to pull the trigger. That's why people hate it.
In the early days, the term "toolshedder" was used by the furball folk against the strat folk. But nowadays it's a term more associated with the armageddon locust hordes in the game - the huge swarm of bad guys who only appear at undefended fields and fronts, and choose to blitzkrieg that area of the map by fighting ground objects, rather than actually meeting the enemy in the air.
The typical toolshedder tends to just disband the horde and disappear when an opposition of similar magnitude rises. When they can't just milkrun fields to their liking, they just go away, give up the fight, and then reform the swarm horde at some other undefended area of the map, and then go busting "toolsheds" in that undefended field.
:aok
Ty Kweassa
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Thanks to everyone who contributed a helpful response. I guess I should have cleared it up for the few of you out there.
Usually before I get into a new major hobby I always like to read up and learn as much as I can about it. I have been living in the forums for the past couple of weeks, reading all that I can, seeing whats acceptable, ok, wrong, and usefull. Anyway, I have almost always read about how people think that HO'ers are unskilled and I was just wondering why it was considered unacceptable, and I now know why.(I guess after I watched the DogFight episode with the F6F and the zero I think it was that one).
Anyway, thanks to everyone who helped out, I look forward to joining the community.
-Brian
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Originally posted by Traveler
I’ll side slip out to the right side and at the last second swing my nose back in with rudder for the snap shot, as the nme continues to hold his course to make what he thinks is a close pass on my left side. Just to realize that my tracers are off and he’s got a face full of lead.
I loved it when one guy that I HO’d three times in a row came up on vox to complain that I had no skill.
You need to learn to read something without reading into it, I never said that the HO was a skilled ACM. I said that it take two to HO and if some one wants to put his aircraft directly in line with my guns, I'll take the shot.Wouldn't you?
Well it seems to me you are pretty proud of your HO abilities. Perhaps I misunderstood what to me seemed like a bit of chest thumping.
If the other plane had a gun solution on me as well, no I would not take the shot. I would maneuver to ensure he didn't score on a HO while at the same time moving to gain angles for a shot.
I try to get more than one kill, while dying, per flight. Plus, a vistory where you have outflown or out-smarted your opponent is infinitely more satisfying that air jousting/coin tossing. A HO invites just that. Mid air jousts where often both sides lose, even if someone wins. I would not consider the following a satisfactory end: I shoot down the bad guy but receive a holed rad, PW, or even an ail or elevator hit. To me, this means I'll probably have to land my wounded bird and start over again. It's an unsuccessful sortie.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Because the HO we refer to in the MA is usually a direct result of lack of skill.
[skip]
The problem is, in the MA, people do not have to cope with the "death/fear" factor the real life pilots had. Therefore, sometimes they fly very wrecklessly. This means by getting in a plane with a good turning ability, they can just pull maximum turns everytime and try to meet every enemy movement by turning into him, facing him forward, bearing guns at his face in a HO run.
Im sorry, but though i mostly agreed with your first statement, "trying to meet every enemy movement by turning into him, facing him forward" was exaclty that real pilots in real war did. In fact, waiting while enemy will attack from your 6 before counteract (scissors, barrel roll, etc) far more gamey. This is possible (and preferred) because of luck of "death/fear" factor in game, we can afford that risk because we will not die then we loose.
If somebody attack you, you are in danger already. Turn toward him and your enemy in danger too, he cannt just shoot in you w/o rist to get hits. That is how "death/fear" factor works in RL.
Calling HO as "gamey way" just silly wrong.
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Im sorry, but though i mostly agreed with your first statement, "trying to meet every enemy movement by turning into him, facing him forward" was exaclty that real pilots in real war did.
You're referring to maxim number 6 of Boelcke's Dicta, where it states;
6. If your opponent dives on you, do not try to evade his onslaught, but fly to meet it.
However the logic behind this maxim is something very different from just turning and meeting everyone in a HO angle everytime.
In fact, waiting while enemy will attack from your 6 before counteract (scissors, barrel roll, etc) far more gamey. This is possible (and preferred) because of luck of "death/fear" factor in game, we can afford that risk because we will not die then we loose. If somebody attack you, you are in danger already. Turn toward him and your enemy in danger too, he cannt just shoot in you w/o rist to get hits. That is how "death/fear" factor works in RL.
Not having to HO doesn't necessarily mean you wait for the enemy to do something so you can turn the tables against it. Like you mentioned such a "passive" response is another 'gamey' method, most usually preferred by the vets against a n00b attacker.
However, like mentioned above "turning into the enemy" is a move that holds a lot more purpose than just to bluff a HO. The logic is totally different. Boelcke specifically describes the situation as "if the enemy dives on you", which implies a situation where the enemy pilot has alt advantage on you and is coming with a typical diving attack pass.
He demands you must 'turn into the enemy' because that will present a situation where the enemy pilot must take a snap shot in a very steep dive at high speeds, where the window of opportunity is small and the lead angle is extreme. Not only that, but also according to how the enemy plane 'recovers' his dive after missing the shot against you, it might present a good opportunity to turn the tables.
In other words, Boelcke's not suggesting to take a HO shot everytime someone attacks you. He's saying you must be more aggressive in your counter maneuvering to minimize the chances of being shot down while maximizing the chance to turn the tables, instead of just passively watching the bad guy come down on you and then moving out of the way when he's close.
Again, this is something very different from the typical HO situation encountered in the MA. It is also very different from what happens in real life, where the tactical environmnet concerning aerial combat is very different from both our MA and the skies of WWI, when Boelcke came up his with Dicta. In WW2, by far the most preferred method of defense is the Luftberry circle, dragging the bad guy around in a practiced standard turns so some other guy can come and clear your six.
Calling HO as "gamey way" just silly wrong.
The "gamey HO" is as gamey as the pilot behind it. Since many pilots in the MA are gamey in their way of thinking, calling the standard "HO" tactic so preferred by these same people "gamey" is only fitting.
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I´ll HO everyone who actually dares to do it vs. my FW190 A8...the look of enemy planes which fly in pieces past my plane after they where shredded by the mix of my 20 & 30 mm cannons is just so rewarding...
Oops, my first post and I already admitted that I like HOs :D
But as said before...it needs 2 pilots for a perfect HO...the one who loses is the one to complain on the forums about it´s noobishness.
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Originally posted by Harp00n
I´ll HO everyone who actually dares to do it vs. my FW190 A8..
psssst
its no secret if your flyin one of these with 30mm package that your merge is going for a HO shot.
;)
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Get in a BIG CANNON plane.....
Shoot everything in the face....
Then you'll be right on par with 90 percent of the rest of the players.
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After flying in MW for a while today, I have decided that many people do not actually know what a HO is.
Had a pilot on the run (a 2 sector run as it turned out, he ran right up until a countryman showed up, who I killed, then he ran some more), 6 chase, about 1000 yards, he breaks left hard to try and come around and I shoot his tail off.
"HOtard"
"Dude, I shot your tail off"
"I've been playing this game since Warbirds and I know what a HO is"
"You've been playing since Warbirds? That's like 15 years of running away"
This happened twice. same situation, same dramatic response.
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Originally posted by TinmanX
After flying in MW for a while today, I have decided that many people do not actually know what a HO is.
Had a pilot on the run (a 2 sector run as it turned out, he ran right up until a countryman showed up, who I killed, then he ran some more), 6 chase, about 1000 yards, he breaks left hard to try and come around and I shoot his tail off.
"HOtard"
"Dude, I shot your tail off"
"I've been playing this game since Warbirds and I know what a HO is"
"You've been playing since Warbirds? That's like 15 years of running away"
This happened twice. same situation, same dramatic response.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
OMG that's funny.
Bronk
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"You've been playing since Warbirds? That's like 15 years of running away"
Did you actually type this? Because this is one of the funniest off-the-cuff-quips I've seen.
:D :D :rofl :rofl :rofl
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:lol :rofl :lol :aok
That is a great line Tinman...........
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Oh this is easy.
HO's are headon shots. HOtards are the noskill gamey types who insist on taking those shots as often as possible.
....I'm sure they eat thier boogers too, the image fits anyway. :)
There's really not much else to say about it.
Tumor
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Psh, the only people who hate head on's are the spit tards & zeke geeks who INSIST everyone fight how they want "turnturnturnturn"
:D
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Kweassa, you type too much :)
In short, HO tactics was used widely in WW2. Generally, if you have more guns and tough plane HO is good for you. More skilled you become, less probably you will HO. That was said by real WW2 pilots (i read memoirs).
I dont say HO is good in game but it not "gamey" because its real and widely used tactics, unlike divebombing heavies, for example.
btw, thanks for pointing me at source of statement, i couldnt remember there it comes from.
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To continue on this fantastic subject, yesterday in a F4U, i went head-on with a N1K, seeing that my angle was not good, decided to break.
Coming very fast, I actually had only the time to bring my wings parallel to the ones of the bandit, hoping that my left wing would go just over his left wing:
Result: the orange message that we all like so much: "you have collided" (no white message from his side).
But this time the noise of the collision, was quite light i would say, and the report of damages on my plane showed nothing. I look back to check the status of the N1K,which had no damage either: This shows that you can be faulty for the collision, but still can get out of it with no damage at all.
I've noticed as well, that if you don't want your HO to become a collision, sight your guns at 550, start shooting at 700, and break at 400,you'll have good results and this thread will start showing Head-On afficionados :aok
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my theory on the HO. drive a 110 and win.
as you were.
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ho's are fine, its a part of dogfightin isnt it !??!? collision's pee me right off, 1 plane looses a wing, the other 1 flys off w/ no damage ! ! ! not on @ all
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I still say it's cowardly to shoot a man in the back. HOing is much more sporting, because at least the other guy has chance to defend himself.
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I still say it's cowardly to shoot a man in the back. HOing is much more sporting, because at least the other guy has chance to defend himself.
:aok Hubson you got a point there, let's reverse this thread, and make the anti HO,the lousy fighters :rofl
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Originally posted by manurin
Result: the orange message that we all like so much: "you have collided" (no white message from his side).
But this time the noise of the collision, was quite light i would say, and the report of damages on my plane showed nothing. I look back to check the status of the N1K,which had no damage either: This shows that you can be faulty for the collision, but still can get out of it with no damage at all.
Did you pull up ctrl+D and confirm no damage on your end?
Could have been as little as gear or flap. This would give no visual effect.
Note:
If no white text he avoided and would have no damage anyway.
Bronk
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HO's are for lamers with no skill!:aok
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Did you pull up ctrl+D and confirm no damage on your end?
Yes bronk, that's why i just wrote about it, because after reading so much about collision effects , i wanted to check by myself. :rolleyes:
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SIGH...here we go again on Hoin'. Personally i think hoing is somewhat dweebish, but i have been known to go head to head against the enemy. :p
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Originally posted by manurin
Did you pull up ctrl+D and confirm no damage on your end?
Yes bronk, that's why i just wrote about it, because after reading so much about collision effects , i wanted to check by myself. :rolleyes:
Hmm I suppose that would mean the damage assessment model is more complex.
It takes more than just a "touch" to do damage, going by what you say.
Wonder if HT could comment on that?
Bronk
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Do a search Newbe :aok
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You can catch unwanted diseases from ho's.
In Warbirds, 90% of the HO's resulted in collisions, 5% I died, 5% Pure Lucky Kill.
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Originally posted by mars01
Do a search Newbe :aok
I tried to search on "HO" but it's too short. Perhaps that's part of the reason there are so many HO threads....
Hum, me thinks the search feature needs improvement....:aok
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I still say it's cowardly to shoot a man in the back. HOing is much more sporting, because at least the other guy has chance to defend himself.
:rofl
I challenge you to a duel!
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Originally posted by Oleg
Kweassa, you type too much :)
In short, HO tactics was used widely in WW2. Generally, if you have more guns and tough plane HO is good for you. More skilled you become, less probably you will HO. That was said by real WW2 pilots (i read memoirs).
I dont say HO is good in game but it not "gamey" because its real and widely used tactics, unlike divebombing heavies, for example.
btw, thanks for pointing me at source of statement, i couldnt remember there it comes from. [/QUOTE
you are wrong. HO's were very rare and only taken when split second decisions had to be made and the situation presented itself. They were tctics taught at the beginning of the war by the Germans facing bombers. Most of you HO guys try to make it sound like Air Forces were openly teaching the tactic. The most common kill in WWII was the high blind 6!
This si a game and HOing is a lame tactic because you waste a fight. There is no fight in HOing someone, onl cowardice!
Mark
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Real life or not.
In the game, ill try to avoid getting in front of your guns. That includes a HO position.
If *you* are going for the HO on merge.... well, thank you. It will leave you in a bad position and hand me your behind on a platter.
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you are wrong. HO's were very rare and only taken when split second decisions had to be made and the situation presented itself. They were tctics taught at the beginning of the war by the Germans facing bombers. Most of you HO guys try to make it sound like Air Forces were openly teaching the tactic.
you are wrong,.,.i have a training mannual for the air force..{think its 342nd} ill have to dig it out of my closet..compiled info from aces of ww2 for training new pilots.......and heads on were encouraged by some allied pilots in the mannual...one p47 ace said he beleived his 50 cals out ranged the german guns on a merge...and they got quite a few kills this way.....i was supruized...ill dig it up..if you dont beleive me..you can find the book out your self at amazon or hastings..lol...im sure alot of pilots didnt head on..but quite a few did.
i dont ho much in this game...only unless i have no choice in the matter..low and out of engery and about 10 planes on me..oohh yes..ill take a shot when that happens..lol
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Originally posted by hyena426
you are wrong,.,.i have a training mannual for the air force..{think its 342nd} ill have to dig it out of my closet..compiled info from aces of ww2 for training new pilots.......and heads on were encouraged by some allied pilots in the mannual...one p47 ace said he beleived his 50 cals out ranged the german guns on a merge...and they got quite a few kills this way.....i was supruized...ill dig it up..if you dont beleive me..you can find the book out your self at amazon or hastings..lol...im sure alot of pilots didnt head on..but quite a few did.
i dont ho much in this game...only unless i have no choice in the matter..low and out of engery and about 10 planes on me..oohh yes..ill take a shot when that happens..lol [/QUOTE
I don't disagree with your findings as I know there were some who had success in head on attacks, I will say that it was not the first and most preferred approack to attacking an enemy. Even the fellas in your book that HOd would have much better liked the attack from the 6 where there is no way for any of the enemies bullets to touch you! Still, ingame it is a sign of newbery! Who wants to fly for 10 minutes and then die HOing? It is just plain lame and no learning occurs from it.
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Learning Hmmmmmmmm.....
Ive learned from HO's......
Ive learned I hit them they blow up....
They hit me I blow up....
Ive learned not to try and cold merge in the MA (for the most part) cuase just when you do you get shot in the face with the above result.....
So there is learning in the HO.....
Not alot but still learning
P.S. I see nothing wrong with the HO when your level of skill ( such as mine) or the situation requires it. However it should not be the move of first choice :aok
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Originally posted by sgt203
Ive learned not to try and cold merge in the MA (for the most part) cuase just when you do you get shot in the face with the above result.....
I love HO'rs. They make my job of killing them almost criminally easy. I don't avoid the head on, I fly right at the idiots. BUT I do a nice break/lead turn at the merge and am generally 1/2 way around on my way to their 6 and an easy kill before they even let off the trigger.
There is timing involved, but it's rare they even land a hit, let alone a ping once you get it down.
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I dont say HO is good in game but it not "gamey" because its real and widely used tactics, unlike divebombing heavies, for example/
I don't doubt HOs were also a viable tactic in WW2. However again, the logic behind the the HOs of reality and those in game are very different, and they are not the same things.
People hating HOs in the game, is about the attitude, not the maneuver itself.
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Drive a 110 and win 95% of yer ho's. free advice. worth what ya paid for it. zero.:aok
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Originally posted by WMLute
I love HO'rs. They make my job of killing them almost criminally easy. I don't avoid the head on, I fly right at the idiots. BUT I do a nice break/lead turn at the merge and am generally 1/2 way around on my way to their 6 and an easy kill before they even let off the trigger.
There is timing involved, but it's rare they even land a hit, let alone a ping once you get it down.
Exactly what I do and I rarely ever get hit, I just think that we vets that know acm should always steer younger players into learning the fight instead of encouraging them to be a flight sim weeenie! :aok
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I ho ewe all! I'll even throw in a ram for SkyRock.
Quah.
:t
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Originally posted by Stang
ewe ram
Quah.
:t
Stang has no preference in the sheep pen!
:D
:t
:noid
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<----Flight sim weenie. :D
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Originally posted by Schatzi
HO position.
If *you* are going for the HO on merge.... well, thank you. It will leave you in a bad position and hand me your behind on a platter. [/B]
:rofl :rofl :rofl You only have to ask :rofl :rofl :rofl
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That being said, as much "disdain" as it receive on the boards I've had an opponent try to take the shot in a HO situation on initial merge probably about 90% of the time, (and this includes some vets who've sworn they never HO in here) and some planes are especially notorious for forcing HOs almost at will (Hurricane 2C, N1Ks, pretty much any Spit). So in all honesty, don't TRY to go for it, but if your opponent won't give you any other option take the shot (you can always try to roll yourself just enough out of phase it becomes a deflection shot and not a true HO).
i'm still pretty much one of the noobs, as i've only been here for about 6 or 7 months so far. in my p38, i notice a LOT try for the HO as they know the 38 is very susceptable to it. i try to avoid it. this is for me still hard, but one thing i've come up with is to use a very shallow dive, which to the other guy looks for all intents and purposes as if i'm flying straight at him.(i only do this if i can't find any other angle to attack at). at about 1.5k to 1.0k, i'll either steepen the dive to go under him, or i'll pull up to go over him. it seems as if when i pull up at that distance, that he usually misses me, and now i have an alt advantage(and i need ANY advantage i can get). i do spend time trying to maneuver to get something besides a head on shot, but i have guys that constantly turn right at me no matter what i do. unfortunatly, i have tried to take the HO too....not often though.....usually only if opponent fires first, or if i'm hurt and know i can't possibly get out of the situation(DESPERATE)
just my two cents..........on a topic that many get all fired up about...........