Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Halo on March 16, 2007, 09:49:29 PM
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Friend of mine bought a Rock River Arms AR-15 in .223 cal / 5.56 mm. I've rented one at the local indoor gun range and enjoyed firing it several times. Its ammo seems effective, plentiful, and affordable.
This type also comes in .308 and other calibers, and quite a few variations with even more variations of supplemental equipment. Seems like this design can do just about anything.
After reading a lot about the AR-15 family, the question that comes to mind is why would any gun enthusiast NOT want one?
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Are you selling or recommending??
NOT
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I want a Stoner.:D
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i own a colt ar-15 target match...with tridium sites...its dead on...my buds own a a-10 armilite 308 and a olympic arms vietnam style ar.....its a great shooting gun..the 308 shot like a dream..not much recoil for the round..but i dont think there are many guns i disslike...lol..they all got there fun points..even the black powders:)
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In 5.56, I'll take an H&K 416 with 10-1/2 inch barrel.
If I were still mechanized, and using 5.56, T.A.R. 21.
Given my choice of ammo, something in a 6.8mm probably.
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Why would I not want one? Because I would be able to spend the money on anything else.
But, if someone held a gun to my head, I would pick the AR-10 in .308, the way it was originally meant to be. I've heard that gun isn't half bad.
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I already own a Bushmaster AR-15/M-4 and I love the thing. I can buy 500rds of ammo for about $100 online and have it shipped to my house via UPS or FedEx. I've never had a malfunction with my personal weapon and I can still shoot 2 inch shot groups at 200 yrds all day long with the iron sights. Great weapon with good ammo. No recoil to speak of and it just fits nice to the shoulder.
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In 5.56, I'll take an H&K 416 with 10-1/2 inch barrel.
nice guns..but i dout ill get one..they just cost too much..any real h&k can run up over 3,000...for that price i would rather buy somthing old and colectible..or buy 2 ar's plus throw in a few ak's for that price...i hate to shoot any gun i own that cost over 1,500 as a shooter...after that price range i stick in guns that are gaining colectors value..i hate buying new and high priced then lose value after its had a few clips ran threw it.
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I'm not really interested in one.
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I have 3.
A Colt Green Label AR-15 set up like a M4, another Colt preban with a 22" barrel and scope set up. It runs a 1 in 7 twist with a picany (SP) rail that the scope is mounted on. I also have an Armalite AR that is basically stock.
I like them obviously. Given unlimited cash, I'd buy a Stoner though.
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Why would I want a plastic fantastic mousegun? Real guns are made from metal and wood and have a bore diameter of .308 or larger. They also have a butt stock that can crack a skull open or drive a tent stake without breaking off.
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After dragging one around Iraq for 14 months, I can say that while it is a lighter, more handy weapon than some, The M-16/M-4 has a serious flaw...it's direct impinging gas-blowback action.
This design is light and simple but can and does lead to failures due to fouling.
It sprays carbon and un-burned powder residue back into the chamber and bolt-face area with even just a little firing, and it is extremely hard to clean, especially the locking lugs on the breech face.
The HK-416 is basically the same M-16/M-4 design with the addition of a gas-piston and operating rod (like an M-14 or M-1A).
Because it is not spraying gas and residue back into the action, this weapon stays cooler during sustained firing, fouls less, and can be fired much longer before it needs a cleaning. This makes it much more reliable.
Also, HK's proprietary (smoothly curved) steel-bodied magazine design is clearly superior. It is a little bit heavier than the standard issue 30rd M-16 magazine, but it works reliably when fully loaded, suffers less from bulging, it is harder to damage the feed lips, and easier to clean.
If I could find one, this is the AR-15 type weapon that I would choose to own.
However very few have made it into the civilian channel, as Colt has chosen to file lawsuits against H&K, claiming that they are infringing upon their patent and manufacturing rights.
CptA
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I have 2. A Bushmaster and a DPMS. Very fun to shoot.
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There are a few rifles I would pick first, Like a FN-FAL, but there is some nostalgia for an AR-15A1 build. Plus, it would be an easier weapon for my non-firearm friends to try and for women to shoot. But then my M1 Carbine does that as well. I'm waiting for the CMP to start selling off their Service grade carbines in April. Maybe find a good deal on an SKS in the meantime.
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
There are a few rifles I would pick first, Like a FN-FAL, but there is some nostalgia for an AR-15A1 build. Plus, it would be an easier weapon for my non-firearm friends to try and for women to shoot. But then my M1 Carbine does that as well. I'm waiting for the CMP to start selling off their Service grade carbines in April. Maybe find a good deal on an SKS in the meantime.
Charon
April? I was under the impression that it was already going on, but I just have hearsay.
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I have a Colt National Match AR-15 I bought new just before the clinton sponsored ban went into effect. I also later bought a Ruger mini 14. Both are fun to shoot, the mini 14 is actually lighter (and less accurate). I still have more fun shooting the Garand compared to the other two. Got to find more 06 surplus ammo.
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I still have more fun shooting the Garand compared to the other two.
cool..what year and model of garand do you have? they sure jumped up in price...i got a 1943 springfield 30.06 garand...and its my fav gun to shoot out of my collection:) semi auto...big round...big boom...and the sound of the clip clanging out at the end of 8 rounds is priceless:)
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I perfer my Type56 Carbine with the 7.62 x 39mm round.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Got to find more 06 surplus ammo.
.30 US and Greek surplus (http://www.jgsales.com/index.php/ammo-for-rifles/30-06/cPath/12_44)
The Greek stuff is nice ammo.
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Wait till you see the Mk16 SCAR... It basically makes the AR-15/M16 obsolete.
Oh, and I have had the good fortune to examine both the Mk16 and 7.62mm version, the Mk17.
First issue will be to SOCOM next year.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by VooWho
I perfer my Type56 Carbine with the 7.62 x 39mm round.
Prefer it for what?
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Prefer it for what?
My regards,
Widewing
Self defense from burglers and home born terriosts. Fun shooting and charging hay with they bayonet. The nocking power of the 7.62 x 39mm is just awsome. Will I would perfer it because its the only military type rifle I have. Maybe I'll get an AR-15 soon. I would love a Kar-98k rifle though.
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April? I was under the impression that it was already going on, but I just have hearsay.
They say they won't even accept orders until April 30.
Charon
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Originally posted by VooWho
Self defense from burglers and home born terriosts. Fun shooting and charging hay with they bayonet. The nocking power of the 7.62 x 39mm is just awsome. Will I would perfer it because its the only military type rifle I have. Maybe I'll get an AR-15 soon. I would love a Kar-98k rifle though.
Well, the SKS is a fun rifle and a decent general purpose weapon. A good plinker that could be pressed into home defense or hunting. They are generally reliable and ammo is cheap and plentiful.
The limitations include less than average accuracy, short pull stock milled from really crappy wood. There is the risk of slam-firing the entire magazine if the firing pin sticks forward due to power residue fouling (seen that happen too often). So, I suggest cleaning the bolt every 200 rounds or sooner while at the range. 15-30 seconds of gunscrubber spray will do the trick.
If you prefer a long arm for home defense, see if you can find a used Marlin Camp 45 (.45 auto) or Camp 9 (9mm) carbine. About the size and weight of a Ruger 10-22, it will stop bad guys without over-penetrating. Both will accept oversize mags (single stack only on the Camp 45). The Camp 9 uses S&W mags, but there are high capacity mags available. These are simple blow-back rifles, so reliability is excellent. They are, however, more complicated to tear down and reassemble than the SKS. This is due to a trigger/mag interconnect. No mag in the gun; trigger is locked-out.
Other good carbines for self-defense are the lever action Winchester 94 Trapper (16" barrel) or a used Rossi 92 SRS in .44 or .357 mag. I prefer the Rossi as the action is super-slick and super fast. Most full pressure .357 mag cartridges out of a 16" barrel will stop any two legged critter instantly. You can get 2,300 fps out of handloads, which is in the 30-30 and 7.62x39 class. Not bad for a 5.5 lb rifle.
Your SKS is perfectly adequate, if not ideal. However, you cannot beat it for the price. BTW, if you remove the bayonet, the SKS is much better balanced and not so muzzle-heavy.
My regards,
Widewing
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It's not that I don't want one, it's just pretty far down the list. There are just too many rifles that do what the ar-15 will and more that are in the same price range.
If you think about it, the ar15 design is like an elderly invalid. It doesn't feed so well, it doesn't eject so well, and it soils it's self.
My next evil black rifle will be either an arsenal slr107 or a robinson arms xcr. The xcr really looks promising, and afordable, the semi auto that is. I haven't seen a price for the class III version but I'm sure it's ridiculously high.
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Originally posted by CptA
After dragging one around Iraq for 14 months, I can say that while it is a lighter, more handy weapon than some, The M-16/M-4 has a serious flaw...it's direct impinging gas-blowback action.
CptA
The mind boggling thing about it is that after 40 some years this most glaring flaw has never been fixed.
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For the last episode of The Sopranos coming Sunday June 10, Tony is hiding out in a family war, and what does he take for max protection?
Not a shotgun.
Not a magnum revolver.
Not a semiauto pistol.
Yes, what the experts say you always take when you know there's going to be a fight: a powerful carbine or rifle, in this case, an AR-15 or something like it.
Tony dozes off in his upstairs bedroom snuggling with his war rifle. Things look bleak for the last episode.
See if you can figure out exactly which gun it is next week in the climax.
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I put a ak comp on my sks last week. It cost $18 and made the sks feel like my Wilson combat ar15 with the recoil. I recommend any sks owner to go out and buy one today.
SKS is my pig killer of choice. The ar is just a safe queen and i was thinking about selling to to build a varmint AR for deer clean up.
I have been looking for some new rounds in 7.62. A soft hollow point is what i am trying to find but everyone is out. The last pig i shot was on the run and the dam thing wouldn't go down. Shot two pigs both running one had 3 bullet holes and the other 2. They were just pencilling and not expanding. Had to go and put both of them down with the .22....
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the m16 family all crap where they eat. filthy guns.
I have not been interested in em but the new .50 beowulf conversion sounds real good... very tempting.
lazs
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Tony has a dmps ar10.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
I have 3.
A Colt Green Label AR-15 set up like a M4, another Colt preban with a 22" barrel and scope set up. It runs a 1 in 7 twist with a picany (SP) rail that the scope is mounted on. I also have an Armalite AR that is basically stock.
I like them obviously. Given unlimited cash, I'd buy a Stoner though.
It's Piccatinny Arsenal btw Bodhi..I live about 5 miles away :)
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Shoot the tavor, the ar-15 is a peice of crap compared to this new infantry weapon!:)
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Originally posted by Halo
Friend of mine bought a Rock River Arms AR-15 in .223 cal / 5.56 mm.
.223 and 5.56 NATO are not the same. Make sure you're firing the correct ammo for your gun or you risk damaging your rifle and possibly injuring yourself.
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Many guns will fire either ammo and have done this on many ocassions. There are a few dimensional differences but mainly the pressure difference is the biggest concern. The NATO round is significantly higher in pressure than the standard .223 round. The NATO round has a thicker case and a longer lead (bullet jump to engage the rifleing) compared to the 223. When firing a NATO round in a 223 chambered rifle increased throat wear and decrease accuracy are the most notable side effects. Bottom line most new guns will not have significant problems with the .223 and 5.56 relationship.
Having said that it is ALWAYS wise to verify the manufactors recommendations. Older rifles (semi/full auto particularly) can experience gun malfunctions including chamber failure due to the pressure difference.
CFYA
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Also, many of the M-16 problems have come from the militarys blind insistence on using a dirty (cheap) ball powder. Armalite warned them when we were in Vietnam. A good burning clean powder will go many times longer than what the troops have now.
Sometimes the government can really screw up great things!!
CFYA
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Saw TV show about some guy that had redesigned the AR so that the recoil spring was on top and no longer in the butt stock. He also modified it so that it was no longer direct impingement in the gas system but used a piston on top inside the recoil spring.
Can't remember the name of the company now though.. anyone see that show?
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Originally posted by Toad
Saw TV show about some guy that had redesigned the AR so that the recoil spring was on top and no longer in the butt stock. He also modified it so that it was no longer direct impingement in the gas system but used a piston on top inside the recoil spring.
Can't remember the name of the company now though.. anyone see that show?
Yeah I saw that one. I think it was Firepower. Anyway H&K are the ones who made it. It still looks like a regular M-16 (almost) but they managed to take care of the common issues people have with the thing. The bolt doesn't get hot anymore. They fired a 30 round mag on full auto and the guy imediately pulled the bolt out of it and held it in his hands. They also fired a 50 round drum mag on full auto while turning the gun up side down and then back up right. Full 360 to demenstrate how it wont jam. They also buried the thing in sand, pulled it out and fired it after only shaking the sand off it. I think they fired it under water as well but I might be thinking of a different program on that one. I was impressed with it. Also it fires the .308 / 7.62 NATO round in the 417 model and 5.56mm in the 416 model.
Here's a linky for you.
.pdf file
H&K 417 Weapons System (http://www.hk-usa.com/images/shared/HK417%20Product%20Sheet.pdf)
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thanks for the link.... the 417 addresses all the problems and complaints I have with the m16 family.
lazs
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Well H&K don't make junk. I'd love to see a civilian version of the 416 offered. I'd take the .223 over the .308 just because I already have a ton of mags for my M4. .223 is cheaper to buy as well so I can get more range time.
Regardless it is an awsome weapons system.
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I have owned HK 91 and 93 and they were good except for the fluted chamber that ruined the brass.
One of the things that the 417 addressed that I think is a flaw of the m16 family is the caliber.
lazs
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No, this wasn't an HK.
This was an American guy that built custom cycles and got into "fixing" his AR.
The program mentioned that his guns are popular with our Special Ops guys and may get the nod for the whole Army, IIRC.
Wish I could remember his company name.
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Have a pair of Colts myself. Fun to plink with...just havent found any other use for them really.
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No, this wasn't an HK.
That HK upper solution (416?) looks pretty neat though. Sounds like the same approach. Be nicer in a 6.5 or 6.8, but logistically and cost wise that will have to wait until the AR platform upper and SAW are entirely out of the inventory, I would imagine.
Charon
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BTW, just got the "order received" on my $500 Inland M1 Carbine from CMP. Mailed it on April 1st (by which time 4000 people who timed there mailings to arrive on the 1st were already in the hopper). Order arrived on the 5th just received my 1st processing e-mail confirmation yesterday. 10,000 or so inlands sold out by April 18th. Should get it by the end of the month.
Some of these are looking REALLY good... Mine will probably be a tomato stake :)
http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32443
http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32540
http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=32571
Got tired of waiting on the carbine to work its way through the backlog and separately ordered 5000 rounds of .22LR, an extra 1000 rounds of 30-06 (to go with the 1000 on hand and the other 2000 I ordered with the carbine) and 2000 rounds of commercial carbine ammo from CMP. I officially now have, by media standards, an "arsenal" in my house (though armory would be the most accurate scare the public term).
Charon
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If I had to choose an auto, it would be the Kalishnikov.
"AK-47. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every m*****f***** in the room, accept no substitute!!"
(http://www.screenfull.net/stadium/Jackie_Brown_11.jpg)
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The AR is okay, but I'm just not a big fan. If I did one it'd be some sort of 7.62mm based weapon.
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I've got an AR15 with the factory national match heavy barrel. I bought it new when the magazine ban was enacted. When it comes down to it I much prefer to shoot my old surplus M1 Garand. I guess it's the history behind it but it just feels better to shoot. I'm sure the AR has far better accuracy than the pitted and dark bore on the M1 but I still prefer the Garand.
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A couple of years ago I bought a Kel-Tec SU-16 which is a semi-auto .223 with an 18.5" barrel. Ammo prices were rising then, and are astronomical now for .223 at over 20 cents/rd. I have no problem firing several hundred rounds in a shooting session which means $40-$80 for a couple hours of fun...
The .223 is a nice round, but not THAT nice. I rather be shooting .308 or 7mm mag or any other higher performance round. 223 used to be fun when there was cheap military surplus to be had. But it's price/performance ratio just ain't there any more.
That's why I invested in some serious bolt-action .22 stuff, more accurate than just about anything, at a fraction of the price. Now I'm looking for a nice bolt action .308/7.62, any thoughts?
Maybe a nice M-14? mmmm...
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Try a Tikka in 300 win mag. You will need a muzzle brake on it. Couple of my friend purchase the Tikka and like it. These guys were shooting a Custom remington 700 and a Sako and were comparing them to the Tikka.
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The Tikkas are nice rifles. The CZ 550 UHR is another good rifle in .300 Win Mag. At only 8 pounds in weight un-scoped, and with a 24 inch barrel it has hunting rifle dimensions but has target rifle like accuracy... minute of angle accuracy guranteed at 1,000 yards straight out of the box; assuming ammo, scope, and shooter are up to it. I have one on order, just need to pick out a scope for it.
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LOL charon... when they raid you they will talk about the whorde of "thousands" of rounds of military ammo for your assault weapons at your "compound" and your anti government writings on BB's
if a democrat gets in only tho of course... BTW.. is there any requirements to buy the ammo from the CMP?
I hated the way the HK 91 and 93 had the fluted chamber that screwed up the brass. I wonder if the 417 does.
Mav... I got to admit.. I love shooting my garand too. everyone does it seems... it is always the most popular rifle when I take people out shooting. Mine seems very accurate.
lazs
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Originally posted by Halo
Friend of mine bought a Rock River Arms AR-15 in .223 cal / 5.56 mm. I've rented one at the local indoor gun range and enjoyed firing it several times. Its ammo seems effective, plentiful, and affordable.
This type also comes in .308 and other calibers, and quite a few variations with even more variations of supplemental equipment. Seems like this design can do just about anything.
After reading a lot about the AR-15 family, the question that comes to mind is why would any gun enthusiast NOT want one?
I'm married and unfortunately do not have a Money Tree. "Wanting something is a lot different than necessity."
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LOL charon... when they raid you they will talk about the whorde of "thousands" of rounds of military ammo for your assault weapons at your "compound" and your anti government writings on BB's
if a democrat gets in only tho of course... BTW.. is there any requirements to buy the ammo from the CMP?
The 5000 rounds of 22 rimfire will put it over the top :) Add to that my putting in a privacy (I mean perimeter) fence on my patio (I mean drill field) several years ago... :noid
What do you need that much ammo for one might ask... Well when you go to Sam's club, why do you buy enough toilet paper to wipe your bellybutton for a 1/4 year :) Same reason, only an even greater cost justification. Big difference between ammo at 20 cents per round and ammo at $1 per round. If I had the time I would go to reloading to save even more, but since I can afford my habit to date given the amount of range time I can squeez in I will wait on that.
As for the ammo, I THINK you have to go through the usual CMP requirements. After that, it's just log on to the e store and submit an order. A fair deal on de-linked Lake City and Greek 30-06 on clips in bandoleers. And when the surplus runs out and I make the move, a lot of brass for reloading. About average prices on anything else as well. For me, the advantage is that they will ship to Cook County unlike virtually all other vendors (even though it's technically legal with a faxed FOID card on file).
Charon