Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Halo on March 18, 2007, 09:28:36 AM
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What's your favorite gun loading action? I respect all gun loading actions that have survived the test of time, but semiautomatics seem to rule everywhere.
Bolts and breech are supposed to be the most accurate and reliable, cylinders and pump the next most reliable, muzzle the most historic and maybe the most customizable with load variation, full auto the most awesome, and lever ... dunno, maybe the most revealing with that elaborate cocking mechanism.
But in handgun or long-gun, bullet or pellets, for sheer fun and firepower, fast smooth feed, fast reloading of preloaded magazines, muzzle time on target and perceived recoil reduction, the semiauto seems king. Tough to find any gun in any military or law enforcement that isn't semiautomatic. They even seem to dominate many aspects of shotgun shooting.
Aside from needing a little cleaner mechanism than others (sometimes a challenge), a slightly longer barrel compared to some other loading mechanisms, and being a bit more ammo particular, semiautos don't seem to have many disadvantages.
With all that loaded prelude, do any of you have or yearn for any guns with other loading actions that you prefer over comparable semiautomatics?
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I yearn for a muzzle loading Whitworth rifle.
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why limit yourself... I have semi autos and wheelguns and pumps and bolts.. slide action rifles.. lever guns have been fun at times.
semi autos can be problematic in the trigger and accuracy dept... for battle rifles only the M1 family has good triggers and accuracy...
I have a Garand and a Kimber 45 that I like but I have a 98k and a host of magnum wheelguns that I like too..
Why limit yourself? It's still a free country... kinda..
lazs
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Some folks have shared the opinion that a bolt-action rifle has the potential to be more accurate than a semi-auto because of jitter the mechamism introduces, but I don't have enough personal experience in that regard to verify it for myself. Seems logical, anyone else have a thought?
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Yes Chairboy, bolt guns tend to have better harmonics than semis which potentially means better accuracy. However, it depends on the particular make/model as always. A Walther PSG-1 will be inherently more accurate than say an Arisaka, for example.
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Chairboy,
I would gusee that the concensus is that a bolt is the epitome of long gun accuracy. Look what the folks who depend on an accurate gun for their lives use. When it comes to ultra accuracy they use a bolt action.
Reliability also would likely go to the bolt as if nothing else you could single feed the sucker. I don't think you'll find any military groups switching over as fire superiority can swing an engagement more often than not.
I like all of the actions. I don't have an over all "favorite" as each one has it's own character and is enjoyable to shoot. It depends on what kind of mood I am in as to which one I'll take out to the range. I've used both revolvers and semi's for serious purposes. I like both bolt and semi for rifles as well. Almost all of my deer hunting was done with a muzzle loader as it got me a different season and required a larger amount of stalking skill than a sscoped cartridge rifle. It also was a challenge knowing there was only one shot.
The only time I have a firm bias is in shotguns. I used pumps, tried a semi but still favor an over under for all my scatter gun shooting. If I can't get it done in 2 it gets away. I could very easily get by with only one shotgun if it werte an over under with removable chokes.
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just how accurate does a gun have to be? Most guns are more accurate than the people shooting them anyway.
BTW my shotgun is a 12 gauge single that my daddy bought me when a was a kid, he didn't want me to waste ammo so he didn't get me a double barrel, one shot , one kill.
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John's right, especially with regard to military shooters. I'd say a standard issue military rifle need not be any more accurate than an AK-47. :noid
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Well I prefer pump shotguns to autofeeders.
They are lighter weight, have many fewer moving parts with less to go wrong.
I don't think any of my Rem 870's has ever failed me yet. I have 3, 1 each in 12.16, and 20 ga.
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Out of 3500+ rounds fired through my USP 45, I have only had 2 fail-to-fires. Both due to cheap ammo bought at the range I frequent.
I carried a revolver when I was an armed guard at the Michigan National Bank Cash Vault. I watched a buddy who carried a .357 pull the trigger and nothing. He'd have to pull the trigger and slam the hammer home, he still qualified.
So, I've seen "unreliable" revolvers. I've also seen my shooting buddy's Model 19 in action. He can shoot .38 special all day long, but he'll shoot .357, and needs to get the brass out with a cleaning rod I bring along in my range bag. He has now "retired" the gun from shooting and leaves it loaded with .357 at home.
His pre-ban Sig P226 had over 15,000 rounds through it and the frame cracked (He bought it new). He bought another P226 off of a buddy that had used it during the Police Academy, and now uses the pre-ban as a "parts gun".
He has been shooting over 30 years. He will take his Glock 23C over any other gun in his possession.
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If I could only have one gun, I’d want it to be an auto; they are the best, all things considered. I like the feel, operation, look and history of all of the actions, however. If I had a big budget for a gun collection and a place to shoot, I’d want at least one of every action made and probably a second in .22 cal.
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I don't like Glocks on a asthetics basis. I think they are ugly, and I don't like the concept of plastic guns. I am a little too "old school" I guess. Not so old school though to think revolvers are better than semi-autos. :D
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My browning a-bolt 7mm rem mag is the most accurate gun I've ever shot. Removing any moving parts from the firing process can dramatically simplify the dynamics involved in getting a bullet on target. Add the barrel tuning "BOSS" system, and it's possible to get hand-load accuracy out of non-match factory ammo.
The more complexity you add to the system, as you get with a semi-auto action, the harder it is to get consistent performance shot-to-shot. I have shot many rifles that are less accurate than I am, and it is frustrating to hold the same sight picture and have the rounds scatter around the point of aim. There is no reason why a rifle should be less accurate than I am.
That said, my Browning Buckmark semi-auto .22 pistol is more accurate than I am, so in that situation a more accurate or consistent weapon wouldn't help.
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Yeah, that Browning Buck Mark .22 is a classic. Bought one years ago mainly on looks and feel. Has never disappointed me. Hard to go wrong with Brownings, I think. The Browning Semiauto .22 may be as good as .22 rifles get.
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My Buckmark hits where I point it. Probably the most accurate pistol I have ever shot.
Mine is a Buckmark Bullseye.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Out of 3500+ rounds fired through my USP 45, I have only had 2 fail-to-fires. Both due to cheap ammo bought at the range I frequent.
You have a USP? Nice. I always did want to try one, just for ****s and giggles.
Anyway, design tolerances, manufacturing tolerances, ammunition tolerances are all major factors in accuracy. Basically, the amount of money spent on designing a gun / making a gun determines how accurate it is.
I wouldn't say that bolt actions are more accurate then semi's, it's just that semi's cost more for the entire process.
I met a guy at the range who spent 5 grand and built his own Rem 700 look a like. He could hit quarters at 300 yards without a problem.
About half a year later, I met a guy who had a national match M1a that he then spent 10 grand on. This guy could hit the same quarters at 300 yards.
Both spent time designing handloads to be tuned for the rifle twist, gun harmonics and barrel length to get absolutely incredibly accurate bullets.
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5k and 10k to hit quarters. :huh
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accuracy smackuracy, when i was in the Marines i fired govt issued Garand M-1's and M-14's with govt ammo and hit 10 out of 10 bulleyes at 500 yrds with iron sights.
how much more accuracy do you need?
of course marines are trained to win battles, not shoot quarters.
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Originally posted by Halo
What's your favorite gun loading action?
Favorite? Six-Barrel Minigun, like the improved version of the M134, would be my favorite action.
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accuracy smackuracy, when i was in the Marines i fired govt issued Garand M-1's and M-14's with govt ammo and hit 10 out of 10 bulleyes at 500 yrds with iron sights.
how much more accuracy do you need?
Damn Straight!! the M-14 was a class rifle.
I've hit man sizes silhouettes at 1000 yards 8 of 10 shots with my favorite toy.
(http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/c2c/galleries/cache/derivative/6/2/6223333.jpg)
1874 .50-90 ST ammo iron sights, but it is tapped for a scope mount, just to hard to pick up the target with a scope at extreme range.
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Originally posted by MrBill
Damn Straight!! the M-14 was a class rifle.
I've hit man sizes silhouettes at 1000 yards 8 of 10 shots with my favorite toy.
(http://dingo.care2.com/pictures/c2c/galleries/cache/derivative/6/2/6223333.jpg)
1874 .50-90 ST ammo iron sights, but it is tapped for a scope mount, just to hard to pick up the target with a scope at extreme range.
Thats awsome.
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I still don't get it... why would you limit yourself? If a gun appeals to you.. buy it. If it turns out that it is not what you like... sell it and buy another.
masher... The only revolvers I have seen that didn't function properly were ones that had been "fixed" by "gunsmiths" both amatuer and professional.. Smiths are notorious for having the trigger lightened... shaving the leaf to letting up on the strain screw to removing parts and throwing them away... seen it all. I have put in excess of 50,000 rounds through a couple of revolvers.
Accuracy is subjective... as was stated, most people can't use the accuracy of guns especially handguns but.. handguns feel different to different people and the trigger on a handgun will do a lot for making it more "accurate" to the individual... most double action or doa semi autos have terrible triggers... they may be fairly accurate but most people can't hit anything with em.
Glock for instance has a special drill that you have to do just to use it effectively.. easy enough to learn but unlike anything else.. people who are glock fans learn it and then pretty much don't want to spoil it by shooting other guns... hence... a sort of built in loyalty by lazy.
Same for double action revolvers but... not so much... single action guys get real picky about triggers.. so do bolt action or M1 rifle guys... lever guys too... semi auto battle rifle guys don't. most "assault rifle" class guys don't care but there is a huge business in making these things have decent triggers for competition.
Who cares that an AKs shoots a 12" group at 100 yards and has a gritty, creep filled trigger? Not the guy who can't shoot 12" groups with an open sighted Weatherby.
lazs
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Originally posted by Halo
5k and 10k to hit quarters. :huh
The quarters was just an analogy to show the grouping capabilities of the rifle.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Well I prefer pump shotguns to autofeeders.
They are lighter weight, have many fewer moving parts with less to go wrong.
I don't think any of my Rem 870's has ever failed me yet. I have 3, 1 each in 12.16, and 20 ga.
Have you ever handled a Browning Gold Hunter. It is my lightest shotgun and the only semi-auto I have. The others are all pump and are much heavier.
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When I was a 7 or 8 Dad bought a Colt Navy .45 replica. I had more fun with that pistol than any other. I learned pirming, loading and firing safety. It was loud, it made a ton of smoke, it kicked like a mule and it knocked the fire outa anything it hit. :D
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Originally posted by rpm
When I was a 7 or 8 Dad bought a Colt Navy .45 replica. I had more fun with that pistol than any other. I learned pirming, loading and firing safety. It was loud, it made a ton of smoke, it kicked like a mule and it knocked the fire outa anything it hit. :D
The Navy was .36 cal, only the army was .44 cal, the Walker was the first .44 magnum ... but "replicas" are often mislabeled and of the wrong caliber.
the frame of a Navy is not strong enough for .45 cal.
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I like my Marlin 45-70. 22" barrel shortened to handle a good silencer and Aimpoint comp MD over it. Great for elks under 150m range and bullets do not mind much little brushes. Stopping power is more than adequate, 350gr Hornady Flat Nose bullets loaded to 630m/s speed. Drops 20cm on 200 m range. After that don´t ask... And silencer helps greatly to keep recoil and most of the noise in bay. Also dog´s ears are saved by that. The gun loses its lightness in that tho, but I am willing to sacrifice that for comfort and hearing.
Bolt action is maybe a bit more "advanced" than lever, but lever action is much faster to load and shoot than bolt action. Also loading is done on vertical instead of horizontal plane-->you can keep red dot right on target while pumping away..
I do not like semi-auto´s , too many things can go wrong while shooting.
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If we could have silencers here there would be a lot less half deaf old shooters.
lazs
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Good point, Lazs2. Will silencers ever be generally acceptable? Much kinder to the ears and environment.
Just as in regular shooting, relatively few silencer users would be sinister, probably no greater than the present ratio of good gun users to bad gun users.
Isn't there some kind of performance degradation when a silencer is added on? Seems like there should be, however small.
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Still love my barretta 9mm
few months ago i was at the range and some kid (21) was shooting with his daddy and made the remark about stopping power of or lack therof with a 9mm
I then proceded to empty the clip into the head of the silloett i was shooting......his dad gave me a grin and he shutup and sat down.
When I was a kid my dad always told me when teaching me to shoot, "it dont matter what weapon your using but HOW you use it"
Gun control is hitting what your aiming at:cool:
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Originally posted by Halo
Good point, Lazs2. Will silencers ever be generally acceptable? Much kinder to the ears and environment.
Just as in regular shooting, relatively few silencer users would be sinister, probably no greater than the present ratio of good gun users to bad gun users.
Isn't there some kind of performance degradation when a silencer is added on? Seems like there should be, however small.
was watching a "gun" show on TV yesterday and they were demonstrating silencers, they said that some states have allowed their use. first i ever heard of this.
they put one on a 22 semi-auto pistol and the bullet impact made more noise then the gun.
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As far as I know, you can get a silencer through a Class 3 tax via the ATF. Some people use them for target shooting.
However, they are illegal to use for self defense, no matter if the shooting was justified or not.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
However, they are illegal to use for self defense, no matter if the shooting was justified or not.
cop:: "did you shoot the bad guy with your silencer?"
me:: "no sir, i took it off first"
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Silencers are allowed for hunting here.
Because I use shots that go near mach 2 there is a loud bang every time I shoot, but the silencer still manages to suppress the sound around 20-30 dB, which really makes difference. And if I decide to lob the shots subsonic ... just imagine 500-600gr heavy slug at 320m/s without sound...
THUMP!
That would kill an elk from short distance...
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Originally posted by john9001
cop:: "did you shoot the bad guy with your silencer?"
me:: "no sir, i took it off first"
And when the forensics show that you shot with the silencer on, as well as corroborative evidence from neighbor's reports, what will you say?
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Originally posted by Halo
Isn't there some kind of performance degradation when a silencer is added on? Seems like there should be, however small.
On a centre fire rifle using standard high velocity ammo projectile point of impact drops slightly when using a suppressor, but the amount varies depending on the design/size of the suppressor. Accuracy often improves, but I think that has more to with the suppressor lessoning felt recoil on heavier kicking bolt guns, and muzzle flip on self loaders.
The biggest disadvantages are from the increase in overall length and weight when using a suppressed rifle. Balance is another factor as well; they make the rifle muzzle heavy.
There are no restrictions on suppressed guns in NZ. There use of is actually encouraged, and they can be bought over the counter suppressed like the Savage Weather Warrior below. I hear the Savage is very accurate, but it's just a little too shiny for my tastes.
(http://www.sportwaysgunshed.co.nz/images/ProductImages/Savage_Short_Action_Suppressed.jpg)
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If you shoot someone with a silencer, take it off afterwards and expend another half dozen shots into the walls, ceiling, floor, etc. The neighbors will hear a flurry of shots but nobody will have an accurate count, and the cops will figure you just got a little excited.
Er... at least that's what I saw in some movie... yea thats it.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
And when the forensics show that you shot with the silencer on, as well as corroborative evidence from neighbor's reports, what will you say?
i live in the country, nearest neighbor is about quarter mile away, and being farm country you hear gunshots all the time. So i really would not have a need to use a silencer.
:p