Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Xargos on March 18, 2007, 08:57:14 PM
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Okay, since there seems to be so many new players who don't know basic fighter combat, I thought it might be a good idea to point ya'll in the right direction. This book is the Bible of ACM and will show you things other then HO's and running 6K before coming back. It is a hard and long read, but well worth it.
Fighter Combat "Tactics and Maneuvering" by Robert L. Shaw (http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599/ref=pd_sim_b_1/103-9580271-9570231)
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No offense Xargos but I think that book will only confuse them at first. I would suggest a few sessions with a trainer as well as reading on netaces.org website tutorials. Then they will have a grasp of some of the terminology & acm's.
After that I think Shaws book would be highly beneficial.
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Unfortunately only a small percentage of the newer players will actually take the time to rea.....
Um did I just say that?
In all seriousness I agree with MajWoody
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Most newbs won't even read up on how to start a "plane" .....they sure as heck aren't gonna read a book
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Geez....
Nice reminder to go to an excellent source of information. I flew AW for years before I bought it. I should have bought it sooner.
I should read it more often.
Thanks for the post.
HONK!
Gooss
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We should add a test on this book.
Pass the test and you can fly in the MAs.
Fail and it's the TA for you!!!
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Before we get these kids reading books, we've got to teach them to read.
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Man, we get so many new players who always ask how to do this or that.
Its a shame they cant have only one option for the first hour of online play.
"such as" When a person first joines, every server is like greyed out,only the training area would be selectable from the server browser.
For everyone who "GOTTA PLAY NOWESZ!" just code it to end, as soon as the player log out of training arena.
that way,someone new could enter the training arena,and get the help they need "AND,they know where to go if something else arises"
Could also just make it a little box option in ither the server hose,or ingame "like some options can only be changed, once online/offline .ect"
Anyhow.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Before we get these kids reading books, we've got to teach them to read.
Maybe "Mouse" wrote a pop-up version :D
Btw I only got Shaw's book after he fragged Joker and I in AW after
we all went after the same B-25 during a Hartmann heritage flight :lol
Bob is a damned fine shot..I could barely even see him when he popped
me :D
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Before we get these kids reading books, we've got to teach them to read.
That would require teaching the teachers to read, first. :rolleyes:
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yeah!!!!
I need to re read this.... My Fighter skill are really sukkin...
This is the holy grail of info
I HIGHLY recommend it
Gatr....
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Every time I see something about "Mouse" Shaw I remember vividly one time he was visiting Finnish Mosquito meeting.. might be year 2001 or so..
The boys were playing Crud and Widowmaker (our squaddie, flies here as Wmaker) managed to hit Shaw´s nose badly... OOOWWWWWW.. I have no idea what he was doing and how he did it but nevertheless "mouse" was in a world of hurt for a while.
A kill!!
Nosebroker would be better callsing.. :rofl
It might be better if I stopped telling stories right now... (nosebreaker might kill me next time we see..)
MM02 pic which shows nekkid men, Mouse is just front of the dog.. (http://icebreakers.compart.fi/kuvat/mm02/havefunguys.jpg)
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Originally posted by Max
That would require teaching the teachers to read, first. :rolleyes:
Hey now!:furious :mad: :furious
Mark
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Maybe better pics regarding that particular event would be these:
The place and Mouse before the occurence (http://icebreakers.compart.fi/kuvat/mm02/day2-more04.jpg)
Mouse with a Donald Duck bandaid on his nose (http://icebreakers.compart.fi/kuvat/mm02/day4-01.jpg) ;)
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While there is no arguing that the Robert Shaw's book is a wonderful resource (a girlfriend once asked if mine - which has long since been covered in duct tape from being carried around so much - was a Bible) it's target audience is the modern (at the time of writing, and probably even still) military pilot. As such, there is an awful lot of content that is not germaine to a WWII era flight sim.
And it requires a serious amount of effort (i.e. study) to work through even the information that is germaine. As has been mentioned, not exactly the kind of thing that someone who's not willing to go through the FAQ is going to ever bother with - if they'd ever part with the money for it in the first place.
Another great resource - that IS oriented towards a WWII era flight sim - and might be a little more digestible to many, is Bmbm's "In Pursuit".
You can download the original version for free at this site, or you can buy a bound copy that's been updated from Amazon.com (or at least, you used to be able to)
http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/
Bmbm (for those of you who don't know him) is a phenomenal sim pilot, and was a Warbirds trainer at one time.
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Ghastly, thank you for posting about that book "In Pursuit", I just ordered it.
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That book will just confuse most people... I find a lot of the stuff confusing, and I was doing it before I'd even heard of the damn book. That said, it's helpful if you can understand it.
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Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
Man, we get so many new players who always ask how to do this or that.
Its a shame they cant have only one option for the first hour of online play.
"such as" When a person first joines, every server is like greyed out,only the training area would be selectable from the server browser.
For everyone who "GOTTA PLAY NOWESZ!" just code it to end, as soon as the player log out of training arena.
that way,someone new could enter the training arena,and get the help they need "AND,they know where to go if something else arises"
Could also just make it a little box option in ither the server hose,or ingame "like some options can only be changed, once online/offline .ect"
Anyhow.
When I started Air Warriors many years ago (I believe it was 1997) they had a newbie arena where all new flyers were assigned. The new pilots had to learn their aircraft and combat tactics to accumulate 10,000 points. Once they accumulated 10,000 points, they could then enter the main arenas. That system seemed to work out well, but Air Warriors eventually stop using the newbie arena. Maybe Hitech should consider such an arena.
Just a thought. wizer
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I have the book.
I think I read perhaps three pages before I actually died of boredom.
Thank God for reincarnation.
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Hear, hear, Ghastly. Well said.
I love Shaw's book. Hell, I love the man himself. Who'd believe that such a little body can hold so much liquor? But it is first and foremost a book for modern fighter pilots. Not that many of the concepts put forth within aren't germane to WWII fighter combat, but they've gotta be distilled quite a bit to get there.
Most true beginners simply don't have the rudimentary knowledge necessary to get much from Shaw. It'd be like putting a calculus textbook in front of somebody who's just getting a grasp on basic math.
I came to the book with a long history of air combat sims including Gilman Louie's original F-16 Fighting Falcon, then Falcon AT, Air Warrior on Genie, Red Baron on Sierra, Warbirds, etc. So I was at least passing familiar with the vocabulary and the concepts within. And I could apply much of it to Falcon 4.0 which was just hot off the presses at the time. I was able to get through it from front to back, but lemme tell ya, it was rough going. :) I certainly wouldn't wish the experience on someone who wasn't as deeply immersed in sims as I was at the time. Or a professional jet fighter pilot, the actual target audience of the book. :)
Alot of guys like to namedrop "Fighter Combat" as if simply owning the book makes them a better pilot. :) It will, I guess, if you're capable of interpreting it, digesting the knowledge, and applying it to the planes we fly in Aces High. Is the typical AH pilot?
As much as I don't want to take a dime outta Mouse's pocket (though I dunno if he still gets paid per copy sold), a truly novice AH fighter pilot would be better served by other options. I've got a spiralbound self-published treatise by DocDoom (He still around anywhere anymore?) called "Air to Air Gunfighter" (with a forward by GunJam, no less), that probably cost me $10 from him at a con and which would be FAR more useful to 90% of AH pilots than "Fighter Combat" would be. The stuff on http://www.netaces.org or some of the articles at SimHQ http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html are a much better place for the newbie to start. "In Pursuit" which you linked to, is another great option. "Noob" never got finished & released, did it?
If nothing else, tear out the BFM section and don't let them read anything but that over & over again for a while. When they've got it memorized, maybe then give 'em the rest of the book. :) And a buncha no-Doze.
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http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/
Johan Kylander's "In Pursuit" trumps Fighter Combat or any thing else written in terms of being accessible and applicable to prop fighter sims.
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bmbm taught me how to pwn in ww2ol and air sims, let him teach you too! :p
-madness
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Originally posted by Messiah
bmbm taught me how to pwn in ww2ol and air sims, let him teach you too! :p
-madness
The man is a beast.
Took me out as his tail gunner in a Blen. Mk I sortie and in three consecutive one on one fights he totally dismantled three 109s, I watched from my little turret in awe.
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I own the Book, Ive just read the whole thing once,
but ive gone back and studied chapter 4 many many times
It really helps, and is a great way to learn the lag displacement roll
which IMO may be one of the best ACM's to use in our game
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Originally posted by Xargos
Ghastly, thank you for posting about that book "In Pursuit", I just ordered it.
So did I, just snagged the last copy that was up on Amazon.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Doberman
Hear, hear, Ghastly. Well said.
I love Shaw's book. Hell, I love the man himself. Who'd believe that such a little body can hold so much liquor? But it is first and foremost a book for modern fighter pilots. Not that many of the concepts put forth within aren't germane to WWII fighter combat, but they've gotta be distilled quite a bit to get there.
Most true beginners simply don't have the rudimentary knowledge necessary to get much from Shaw. It'd be like putting a calculus textbook in front of somebody who's just getting a grasp on basic math.
I came to the book with a long history of air combat sims including Gilman Louie's original F-16 Fighting Falcon, then Falcon AT, Air Warrior on Genie, Red Baron on Sierra, Warbirds, etc. So I was at least passing familiar with the vocabulary and the concepts within. And I could apply much of it to Falcon 4.0 which was just hot off the presses at the time. I was able to get through it from front to back, but lemme tell ya, it was rough going. :) I certainly wouldn't wish the experience on someone who wasn't as deeply immersed in sims as I was at the time. Or a professional jet fighter pilot, the actual target audience of the book. :)
Alot of guys like to namedrop "Fighter Combat" as if simply owning the book makes them a better pilot. :) It will, I guess, if you're capable of interpreting it, digesting the knowledge, and applying it to the planes we fly in Aces High. Is the typical AH pilot?
As much as I don't want to take a dime outta Mouse's pocket (though I dunno if he still gets paid per copy sold), a truly novice AH fighter pilot would be better served by other options. I've got a spiralbound self-published treatise by DocDoom (He still around anywhere anymore?) called "Air to Air Gunfighter" (with a forward by GunJam, no less), that probably cost me $10 from him at a con and which would be FAR more useful to 90% of AH pilots than "Fighter Combat" would be. The stuff on http://www.netaces.org or some of the articles at SimHQ http://www.simhq.com/_air/acc_library.html are a much better place for the newbie to start. "In Pursuit" which you linked to, is another great option. "Noob" never got finished & released, did it?
If nothing else, tear out the BFM section and don't let them read anything but that over & over again for a while. When they've got it memorized, maybe then give 'em the rest of the book. :) And a buncha no-Doze.
Another good book is "Every Man a Tiger : Mock-Combat Flying Techniques for Light Aircraft " by Frank J. Obrien.
It's geared towards the private acrobatic pilot but the terminology is more layman than Shaw's.
ack-ack
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Doberman, DocDoom is one of the principals (I'd say one of the owners, except that I'm not certain of the corporate structure) of WWIIOL.
And yes, Air to Air Gunfighter is pretty good - condensed though, and more superficial than a lot of other resources if you are looking for "how to" - but a very enjoyable read.
Sadly, I don't know what the status of printing may be. Barry (Carrot) has passed on, and I don't know what happened to his publishing company when he passed.
And also sadly, I don't know what happened to my copy of "The Butcherbird's guide to a free lunch" that I bought at the same time. I asked my fiance if she'd seen it when she re-arranged my bookshelf, and simply got a look that said "Whatever you just asked, I don't even want to know..."
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I can't find anything on either "Butcherbirds Guide to a Free Lunch" nor "Air to Air Gunfighter". I have a friend who's a publisher and he could find out more if he knew who the authors and publishers where.
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As I recall... They were almost done to order on a copier and bound..
per order... I worked in printing all my life so I notice that kind of stuff ....
And YEAH I lost my copies also
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Originally posted by Xargos
I can't find anything on either "Butcherbirds Guide to a Free Lunch" nor "Air to Air Gunfighter". I have a friend who's a publisher and he could find out more if he knew who the authors and publishers where.
DocDoom from Warbirds. Still have my copies (autographed, in fact).
I was in his squad (Bloody Sharks) and remember when he moved from the south coast of Australia to Texas to join the WWIIOL group after the Grapevine WB office was closed. Lost touch with him after that.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
So did I, just snagged the last copy that was up on Amazon.
ack-ack
PDF Version Here:
http://web.comhem.se/~u85627360/
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Originally posted by Gatr
As I recall... They were almost done to order on a copier and bound..
per order...
Yep, spiral bound. I never picked up "Butcherbird" Wish I had.
Anyone here play WWII Online as well? Or have an account on their forums? Care to ask Doc if he's still selling copies? If he's not would he mind if we converted them to PDF so the wealth could be shared?
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Originally posted by Xargos
Okay, since there seems to be so many new players who don't know basic fighter combat, I thought it might be a good idea to point ya'll in the right direction. This book is the Bible of ACM and will show you things other then HO's and running 6K before coming back. It is a hard and long read, but well worth it.
Fighter Combat "Tactics and Maneuvering" by Robert L. Shaw (http://www.amazon.com/Fighter-Combat-Maneuvering-Robert-Shaw/dp/0870210599/ref=pd_sim_b_1/103-9580271-9570231)
No one needs that, it seems all anyone does anymore is fly at 20k and drop down for a quick cherry pick if they can get it, then run away.