Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ghi on March 20, 2007, 08:08:12 AM
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the job lost domino efect in car manufacturing, Time for you guys from US,to buy a property for investment, can get it on visa, no need to apply for mortgage,
Don't you think ,the price will go up in few years?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070319/ts_nm/usa_subprime_detroit_dc (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070319/ts_nm/usa_subprime_detroit_dc)
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with many americans mortgaged to 125% of the value of their homes and with a plunging real estate market nation wide the bubble has apparently burst on the rediculously inflated real estate market. 47 banks failed last month and money for real estate investment is becoming scarce. there will be a new buyer's market emerging soon as the foreclosure rate increases nation wide.
the time to buy isn't right now, as the economy goes lethargic as it typically does in an election year. I think the time to buy will be approximately a year from now.
I don't suspect houses will return to pre 2003 prices or below but they will drop considerably allowing those that have the means to be able to snap up flip deals if they can buy and hold until the next upturn. depending on who gets into the oval office I think 2010/2011 could see another rise in the market.
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Agree 100% Storch.
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it is still about location... detroit screwed itself with the union car industry... You can probly not get a good deal on a home near the toyota plant in tennessee.
In kalifornia... it is as storchita says... over financed.. the builders are not building.. the demand is building tho. People will always want to live here.. the price will rise and the demand will exceed the supply.
I will sell at a peak and move to a place that is pleasant but with less demand than where I live now.
lazs
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The Toyota plant is in Kentucky, they make the Camry there. The Nissan plant is in Tennessee, they make a bunch of crap here, it's about 15 minutes from me. They (Nissan) offered a truckload of employees a buyout of $45K and up if they'd leave. Several hundred took it. I know a few 10-15 year employees that got a one time payment of well over $100K. If they weren't so stupid as to be up to their eyes in hock, the $100K would be a killer fresh start. I'd like to have made $80K for ten years or so and gotten paid $100K to leave. I'd have a paid for house and a paid for business in a week.
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sorry... they all look alike to me. wouldn't ever even drive one much less buy one.
The fact remains that the unions have killed the American auto industry and that has killed the housing market in those areas.
lazs
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Well, Laz, you're half right.
The Unions, working hand in hand with stupid, greedy Auto Company Management, killed the US car industry.
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Phaser11 in Detroit
It is terrible here. I cannot sell my home to move out of state. I cannot believe my wife and I were talking the other day of just letting the bank have it and the heck with the credit report. My son has finally got a full time job (22 years old) my daughter and wife are looking.
Michigan is on the fast track to no where. Almost everything is based on the auto world here and it is dieing fast. Stores are closing faster that new ones are opening. Gas is at 2.65 a gallon again and rising. Unemployment is ramp-it. People are starting to turn against each other. There was a shooting on the way into work the other day where a woman shot another’s car for tailgating her (I have put my vest back in the truck). The governor is looking at a new sales and sintax (tax on cigs and alcohol).
Michigan needs something new.
Something…….
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The Toyota plant is in Kentucky, they make the Camry there. The Nissan plant is in Tennessee, they make a bunch of crap here, it's about 15 minutes from me. They (Nissan) offered a truckload of employees a buyout of $45K and up if they'd leave. Several hundred took it. I know a few 10-15 year employees that got a one time payment of well over $100K. If they weren't so stupid as to be up to their eyes in hock, the $100K would be a killer fresh start. I'd like to have made $80K for ten years or so and gotten paid $100K to leave. I'd have a paid for house and a paid for business in a week.
Wait, why would they offer a buy out? Just what exactly is a buy out?
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Originally posted by Phaser11
The governor is looking at a new sales and sintax (tax on cigs and alcohol).
Michigan needs something new.
Something…….
Isnt it funny how those feeding at the public trough feel as though they should give up nothing? , always a tax increase is the answer.
The county employees were told that their health insurance was going to cost them fifty bucks a month now, you should have heard the crying, bunch of spoiled brats.
shamus
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They pay you to leave your job. Or, if you prefer, you get paid to volunteer to be laid off.
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Never mind, sorry.
And I was not talking about anyone in here either, so don't be :noid .
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Wow, A subject right up my alley. I lived in Detroit (sub) for ten years and worked for General Motors. I'm not from the Midwest, so I felt like a space alien.
There is a very poor work ethic in the midwest in general and the worst can be found in the unions. Everybody thinks its thier birth right to have an easy high paying job and do a crappy job on top of it. Michigan, in particular suffers from this sorry collective attitude. I sold my house six months ago and lost 8,000 dollars on it. Everybody told me how lucky I was. Now I live in Florida, where Unions are the devil and work is everywhere. I make more here than I did up there and I'm about to go up even more here. This place is booming and everybody laughs and Unions down here. Lol.
The UAW is a snake which wraps its body around its victims and sucks the life out of them.
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Detroit and the rest of South-Eastern Michigan, and it's dependence upon the dying auto industry is like a singularity (Black Hole).
As the aging auto industry's plants and productivity winds down, and the auto firms seek to relocate outside of Michigan in search of more productive (and lower cost) non-union employees, it is dragging the economy of the rest of the state down with it.
It doesn't help that our Liberal, Canadian-born Governor is held-hostage by her SE Michigan voter base.
Her only ideas seem to revolve around increasing taxes in the outlying Northern and Western Michigan regions and funneling even more tax-payer cash into the vortex of dependancy.
She ought to be looking at lowering or eliminating taxes to encourage new business growth rather than increasing the tax load upon the remaining productive working population, but that's just not how her Party and her voter base thinks.
CptA
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Didn't Toyota want to build a Tech. Center in Ann Arbour and the State Legislature gave them the finger. I think they said "we'll just do fine without them."
I think its funny that the motor city has the worst roads in the US. Everybody makes excuses, but the bottom line is the fact that the road crews act like the UAW. They don't do ****.
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I got to agree with you GHI , Michigan sucks a s s atm :(
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i was surprised:-- Houses under 30 000 $?! are cheaper than in any 3rd world cities where peoples work for 200$/month,
Something goes wrong, i hope this "black friday" doesn't spred all over,
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i hope it spreads to florida, then i can buy that cute little condo.
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that may take a while yet but there are lots of large apt complexes going condo conversion here. their marketing strategy is get the unqualifiable to qualify. in a year or so there will be another condo glut and you will be able to snap up property for less than what the banks are owed. it will be economic vultching at it's finest. I'm saving all my pennies and securing credit for that strike right now. you can't begin digging your well when your are thirsty.
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Originally posted by Choocha
Wow, A subject right up my alley. I lived in Detroit (sub) for ten years and worked for General Motors. I'm not from the Midwest, so I felt like a space alien.
There is a very poor work ethic in the midwest in general and the worst can be found in the unions. Everybody thinks its thier birth right to have an easy high paying job and do a crappy job on top of it. Michigan, in particular suffers from this sorry collective attitude.
My part of the midwest considers Michigan to be somewhere between Canada Light and Northeastern Heavy. Don't go slandering the rest of us by saying we are all like Detroit.
There are definitely union-heavy pockets dotted all around the midwest, and these tend to be closer to what you describe . . . but not near as bad as Detroit. The rest of us look at them and just shake our heads.
Priced themselves right out of their jobs. No one but themselves to blame IMO.
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Originally posted by E25280
Priced themselves right out of their jobs. No one but themselves to blame IMO.
E25280.........That is right on the nose! Delphi was paying there lawn mowers $60.00 an hour. But now it is to late. Pandoras box is opened and neither side will relent in what they want.
Fore sale
1 city used current name "Detroit". Purchaser can rename city as they see fit.
ML Baseball team OK to Great!
ML Hocky team OK to Great!
ML Basketball team OK to Great
ML Football team........well
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Build a quality product, and they will come.
Don't worry, ya'll could always sell your souls and build casinos.
BTW, lots of unions here, we do just fine
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Hey, I got an idea! Maybe we could just open our borders and take any illegal immigrant that's willing to try to cross and slap him into the auto production line!
Those jobs are like, totally no skill and the illegals would probably work for $8 per hour. No one else could compete with us THEN! We'd show 'em.
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It still boils down to location. Retired people would flock to the place if it wasn't full of filthy snow and gangs.
If a place has good weather then it matters not about the job base.. the people who don't need a job will go there... they will create a service industry.
Unions are not the devil but they can turn into it.. just as governments can.. the UAW had too much power and.. just like a tyrannical government... it destroyed the host.
lazs
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I just don't know why regular old good Americans won't take these $8.50/hr jobs, buy a small house, get some health care coverage and a used car and raise 2.5 kids giving them decent clothing and healthy food anymore.
What the heck is wrong with people nowadays?
I mean, jeez, $8.50/hr is $1360/month before taxes. That's way more than anyone needs.
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how much should a person make to run an air drill on an assembly line?
Is toyota and nissan running some kind of slave labor camp? are these people living in tents in the parking lot even tho they have skills that are almost... superhuman?
A clerk at safeway probly needs to know more. And.. are they better off if they kill the industry? I bet a lot of the guys out of work in detroit would jump at the chance to get on that assembly line for $15 an hour.. what do you think?
and why not... I mean.. what would stop em? the employer would be more than willing to pay that... the employee would be grateful to get it. who would stop this good thing from happening?
lazs
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Right here is your problem with that argument Laz:
In a memo to workers at the plant after the report was circulated, Toyota noted that workers at Georgetown earned $3 an hour more than the U.S. auto industry standard. The Free Press reported last week the workers averaged $30 an hour, including bonuses.
http://tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070208/BUSINESS01/70208019
Toyo and Nissan pay pretty much the same as the US workers get. There are legacy retirement differences; what's your solution there? Screw the old retirees? They gave 30 years to the company and now they should just have their retirement stolen?
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well.. yes if you simply use the per hour rate which is not what is being paid is it?
Your own post from another thread showed that the labor cost was almost twice that for GM than for toyota when all the bells and whistles were added in.
lazs
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The bells and whistles in that other report are basically the legacy retirement costs and health care costs.
So again, what do you propose on legacy retirement costs? Should the retired workers be punished because they worked for an old company that actually has a lot of retired workers? What's your solution here? Screw the old retirees? They gave 30 years to the company and now they should just have their retirement stolen?
Health care? Again a huge part of their health care costs are the retired workers. It was promised to them, it was part of their compensation package for 30 years. What now? Just steal it from them? After telling them for 30 years it was part of the deal?
Among the changes would be greater use of on-site medical clinics and the introduction of on-site pharmacies to combat rising health care costs. Toyota’s language regarding North American health care inflation largely echoes that of Detroit's automakers.
Health care is an issue for Toyo as well and they are providing it apparently.
Oh, one last thing.......
In the follow-up memo, Toyota pointed out that workers at Georgetown and at New United Motor Manufacturing Inc. in Fremont, Calif., which Toyota owns with GM, are the highest-paid autoworkers in the United States.
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In the private sector you just have to take those benefits away from those lazy retiree's Toad.
Now if you are in the public sector you raise taxes or "fees" as high as you need to, to cover those expenses.
shamus
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I need to work for the City, Think of all the stuff I could get as a city/Government worker. Full retirement, Health care, Car allowance. The UAW has nothing on the government fair wages.
Houses are cheap in Detroit because no one wants to live there,
No one has wanted to live there for 20 years, Its not because of the UAW or the car companies, It is because the city is run by a bunch of black mayors that do nothing but buy expensive cars for themselves and fly all over the world at the expense of Detroit.
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Well, Shamus, we'll all just have to tighten our belts another notch, right?
Originally published July 20, 2006
NEW YORK // A bankruptcy judge allowed auto parts supplier Delphi Corp. yesterday to extend an executive bonus program potentially worth more than $60 million a year despite objections by all six of the company's labor unions.
The unions said the bonuses were ill timed, given continuing negotiations over job cuts and new labor contracts. The company projects it will lose $2 billion this year and needs to cut pay and benefits.
But Judge Robert D. Drain ruled in favor of the company's request, saying the most important issue was keeping Delphi competitive in compensating executives.
Well, I guess not ALL of us need to tighten our belts... just some of us. Because we're all in this together right? And we need top execs; you surely couldn't afford to lose guys like this:
Monday, March 27, 2006
Feds put heat on ex-Delphi executives
Prosecutors, SEC press former officials to testify in accounting errors that cost supplier millions.
David Shepardson / Detroit News Washington Bureau
Federal prosecutors investigating accounting fraud at bankrupt auto supplier Delphi Corp. have notified several former executives they face fraud and conspiracy charges if they don't agree to plead guilty and cooperate.
At least two former Delphi executives have been given until the end of March to decide whether to work with prosecutors from the Justice Department and officials of the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission, lawyers with direct knowledge of the situation told The Detroit News. The lawyers declined to name the executives.
I see Ford is tightening executive belts as well; times must really be tough all over.
, March 01, 2007
Ford ups CEO bonus
Mulally gets extra $1M; total reward now at $6M
Bryce G. Hoffman / The Detroit News
Ford Motor Co. said Wednesday its board of directors approved a $6 million stock option bonus -- $1 million more than was previously promised -- for new CEO Alan Mulally.
The board also approved cash payments to other senior executives to compensate them for a bonus program the company is scrapping in favor of a new compensation plan, according to documents filed with Securities and Exchange Commission late Wednesday.
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Even the nice areas in the metro area are taking a major hit.
Our janitors (at GM) made -on average, over 100k per year. In some cases, 150k. Ok, a little over priced but at least you would would think they would do a good job. Lol. Most of the time they are high, drunk ..sometimes they would try and kill each other.
My friend got stabbed in the back with a screw driver by a UAW troll. My friend was his supervisor and wrote him up for disipline issues. Well the UAW said he was ill and needed help and if GM fired him they would walk. He got his job back after 3 months of "therapy". I would have gone downtown and hired a couple gettho rats to beak his legs..500 bucks was the going rate back then.
I can go on an on (sigh)..........
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Which is why I say the only thing worse than a union is no union.
Hey, remind me...which came first in America... unions or abusive managment?
You reap what you sow.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Build a quality product, and they will come.
Don't worry, ya'll could always sell your souls and build casinos.
BTW, lots of unions here, we do just fine
OMG!!!
We have 3 casinos downtown now and more building!!!!!!
To bad no one has money to go to them..hehehehe:rofl
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and what are the rank and file reaping? ****.....they're worse of than management ...much worse. average UAW slappy can work fast food if his job dries up, management can always find work. why? BECAUSE MANAGEMENT IS PAID MARKET VALUE FOR THIER WORK (and they have skills).
Toad,
If you shovel **** for a living then you are a commodity. Being a commodity is not where you want to be.
Get a skill.
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What you miss is that the rank and file are exactly LIKE management.
Management TAUGHT them to be like management.
That's why both sides are greedy and stupid.
Yeah, management always finds another job; there is no end to stupid owners/shareholders.
Some of the biggest losers ruin companies and move on to run others into the ground. And they grant themselves bigger bonuses every time.
Your heroes, not mine...on either side.
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so you are saying that if management got hold of their salaries that the auto companies would not be in trouble? that the workers costs is nothing?
the toyota plant in fremont is a joint GM/toyota venture as I recall or was when it changed over from a strictly GM truck building plant... As I also recall.... wasn't part of the deal that they remain UAW union?
It would seem that toyota is doing so well that they can afford to subsidise the UAW in at least one plant.
I know former UAW workers... Hell... I married one from the original GM plant.. I doubt that her "skills" were worth $10 an hour.
lazs
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C'mon Laz.. read it:
In the follow-up memo, Toyota pointed out that workers at Georgetown and at New United Motor Manufacturing Inc. in Fremont, Calif., which Toyota owns with GM, are the highest-paid autoworkers in the United States.
What that says is that Toyota the non-union Toyota Georgetown plant and the Toyota/GM UAW Fremont plant are are the highest-paid autoworkers in the United States.
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So Toyo Non-Union workers are as highly paid as their UAW compatriots in Fremont. It would seem that toyota is doing so well that they can afford to pay UAW wages in BOTH plants.
so you are saying that if management got hold of their salaries that the auto companies would not be in trouble? that the workers costs is nothing?
Nope. Didn't say that at all.
Here's what I said: What you miss is that the rank and file are exactly LIKE management. Management TAUGHT them to be like management.That's why both sides are greedy and stupid.
See..it's BOTH sides. Both greedy, stupid sides would rather eat the goose that lays the golden eggs than work together to harvest golden eggs.
I'm sure it's unpopular to point out but some of the best times this country ever experienced were when the US auto industry had execs that cared about their companies rather than themselves, built cars that suited the buying public, paid decent wages to their employees, built employee loyalty by caring for their employees with benefits like health care, retirement and vacations and had union employees that were proud to work for those companies.
This country had a middle class and that made this country a great place to live.
We've lost all that. We have Boardroom Bandits whose only interest is how much they can steal from the company in the short amount of time before thier lack of leadership drives it into bankruptcy and workers who've been taught by the Golden Parchute Corps to grab for all they can before the company goes down for the last time.
Greed and stupidity... the mantra of both management and unions. They're both destroying the middle class.
I ask again: how long will the country survive when the majority of the folks work for minimum wage? What happens to the economy when the average joe can't afford housing, clothing and food for his family despite working two jobs?
A lot of factors tie in to this; the easy availability of cheap, illegal immigrant labor is also destroying the middle class. You can argue all you like about the effects but it's clear they drive wages down. Further, they do not reinvest in this country like regular citizens would. Much of what they earn leaves the country forever. They don't buy new cars up here, they don't buy new houses for each family; those are things the old American middle class did do. Those are things that kept this economy growing.
Tell me what happens when there is no middle class; what happens when there is a very, very small percentage of extremely rich people and an overwhleming percentage of two-worker families that can barely house, feed and clothe themselves. That day isn't here yet but it is most certainly ahead of us at some time unless we figure a way to pay the average joe a living wage.
/rant
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I wonder who's gonna buy all this stuff that Co's sell here in the States when all the average Joes jobs goes offshore ?
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To cut costs and make more money , move some opts offshore , add bigger co pay to health Ins , give just enough raise to cover co pay increase . Rinse repeat , over and over . No net raise for years now , Ins costs up , heat bill up , gas up , cost of travel up .
How do they ( Co's ) figure their gonna sell their stuff to anyway . Who's gonna be left to buy it ?
Ya super rich of very poor , wow , what a great outlook that will be for America .
I see on TV every night the crime that we have now . Ever wonder why crime is so high in high unemployment areas ? Not to mention people blowing their brains out also :(
I really don't see how average young people make it now days . Guess alot live at home . I worked my bellybutton off to send both my girls to college and they are doing very well but most don't or the kids aren't smart enough to do that .
Are they gonna leave anything that pays a living wage for average Joes ?
fi
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Originally posted by Toad
Tell me what happens when there is no middle class; what happens when there is a very, very small percentage of extremely rich people and an overwhleming percentage of two-worker families that can barely house, feed and clothe themselves.
well, historically what happens is called a revolution, the govt is deposed, the rich are killed or go to prison or flee the country, then the poor masses take over and start all over again.
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Originally posted by john9001
well, historically what happens is called a revolution, the govt is deposed, the rich are killed or go to prison or flee the country, then the poor masses take over and start all over again.
When the revolution happens, I'll be on the side of the rich people. I have seen what the poor are capable of.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
When the revolution happens, I'll be on the side of the rich people. I have seen what the poor are capable of.
thats interesting...but with what we are talking about here, wouldn't you think the rich to be the worst of the group. maybe the reasons for a revolt and the actions taken during the revolt are all caused because of the initial actions of the rich. So in fact the rich are are capable of much worse, not only can they destroy the lives of many, but ultimately themselves and those that surround them. just a thought
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Originally posted by pluck
thats interesting...but with what we are talking about here, wouldn't you think the rich to be the worst of the group. maybe the reasons for a revolt and the actions taken during the revolt are all caused because of the initial actions of the rich. So in fact the rich are are capable of much worse, not only can they destroy the lives of many, but ultimately themselves and those that surround them. just a thought
No, I don't think the rich are the worst of the group. I think they are the best of all people.
The revolution may be started by the rich, in that they rightly refuse to give up their property to people who haven't earned it. In the non-revolutionary world, we call that theft.
But in the socialist world, they call it justice.
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Originally posted by john9001
well, historically what happens is called a revolution, the govt is deposed, the rich are killed or go to prison or flee the country, then the poor masses take over and start all over again.
and they lived happily ever after. the rich I mean. with cuba as the example we rich cubans emigrated to the US and became rich again and we lived happily ever after. furthermore we (most immigrant groups who have found refuge on these shores) are grateful, loyal, industrious, patriotic and engaged citizens. we are a great part of what makes the United States great.
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And like my paternal grandfather and maternal grandfather, you were probably legal immigrants?
Makes a difference, I think. You had no intention of going back to Cuba every winter.
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$30 an hour for working on an assembly line?
Isn't that like 3 times what policemen start out at?
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yeah...but you still have thunder over michigan.
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FLASH!!!!
This just in the new this morning. The only city that has a bigger outflux of people is New Orleans! That's right!
Fred (one of my co workers) was at the selling of all these homes in Detroit. He figured he could get a cheap house. He was going to bid on one untill he asked about property tax in the city. His house payments would be increased over $850.00 per month to cover the yearly tax!
OMFG
This weekend he is moving out of Wayne county (He is in the city in an apartment right now) this weekend.
One good thing, most of the hi tech (IT) workers are bolting and there are lost of computer jobs(what I do) around here now. If, that is you want to work for GM or Ford.
Todays Detroit report
Scattered gunfire, with intermitent car jackings
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toad.. I am saying that I think that toyota is paying the wages in fremont because it was forced to be UAW and... the cost of living is very high in that area.. Ever look at housing prices there?
I am saying that if toyota only has to pay high wages in high cost of living areas... they will always beat out GM who has to pay high wages in crap holes like detroit. The union destroys the ability to be flexible...
Toyota can pay the highest wages.. even UAW robbery.. in a place like fremont cause they don't in the south... GM pays the same no matter what soooo... they have to move out of the country or... simply die.
Management is no better so far as greed but the effect is far less.. and that is the important thing...
You can't justify paying the same wages as a dentist to a man or woman who runs an air drill putting in the same 6 screws every 10 minutes. That is some real bad socialism. You might be able to pay em a tiny bit more in an area where the cost of living is high but your product is closer to say... shipping or freight or large dealers..
But you need the flexability... toyota understands this... the UAW does not.
I have to go with laser on this one... come the revolution and I am gonna be on the side of the rich over the side of the anti individual "poor".
lazs
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So how do you explain them paying tip top wages in Georgetown, KY?
I happen to agree with you on the flexibility issue, btw. It's one of the places where unions are killing the golden goose. In much the same way as thieving managers are killing the golden goose with their golden parachute grab the money and run decision making.
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There has to be advantages for the company in order to increase wages. If georgetown has a lot of resouces close by that save the company money for instance... or.. if there is a market that is easily accessable from there.
cost of living must also be taken into consideration... It is maybe not so important in assembly lines since that is pretty much drawing from the same pool as fast food workers so far as education and real skills are concerned.
If I had to train someone for a real job that required learning real skills and further education... I would take a $10 an hour auto zone manager over a UAW worker any day... in fact.. I have.
Flexability is the problem.. we both agree... but the unions do not.
As for management... That is a small part of the overall cost and.. it is a matter for the stockholders to decide.
lazs
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Your argument fails Laz. In every location where Toyo has a plant they are paying far more than prevailing local wages. By your logic, they don't have to do that.
The wages at every plant are fairly competitive with UAW rates.
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Originally posted by lazs2
As for management... That is a small part of the overall cost and.. it is a matter for the stockholders to decide.
lazs
Really?
What's the overall cost of incredible stupidity?
These are the guys that determine the product. The Honda Accord came out in 1976; how come 30 years have gone by and the US Big Three stll can't match that line in mpg, price or reliability?
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Originally posted by Toad
These are the guys that determine the product. The Honda Accord came out in 1976; how come 30 years have gone by and the US Big Three stll can't match that line in mpg, price or reliability?
found something interesting, this is the 50th anniversary of the 57 chevy, how has the chevy improved in 50 years?
57 bel air, weight=3566 pounds...........07 impala=3790
HP=283..............................................HP=303
city MPG=14.................................city MPG=18
so fifty years of engineering have given us more weight, little more HP and 4 more MPG.
someone was over paid.
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john... until you factor in a zo6 at 550 hp and 26 mpg and over 1g cornering...
have you ever owned a 57 chevy? I have owned maybe a dozen...
toad... we are going round in circles... fact remains that toyota is paying about half the wages (real cost) that GM is OVERALL.. some factories have different deals... like the fremont one... I know for a fact that it has got concessions from the UAW workers by threatening to shut down.
Fact still remains that if toyota had to embrace the UAW in all of it's squalid glory... they would be in as bad a shape as GM
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
toad... we are going round in circles... fact remains that toyota is paying about half the wages (real cost) that GM is OVERALL..
lazs
Any you keep ignoring that most of the difference is in legacy costs such as retirement and health care for tens of thousands of retirees.
So you're comparing apples to oranges.
You still haven't told me what should be done with the obligations to the retirees? Just screw em? Or what?
Take away legacy costs and GM and Toyo are damn close in pay to workers. When Toyo has 30 year vets, they'll have legacy costs as well.
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toad.. we are not that far apart but.... where did the legacy costs come from?
most of them were UAW demands that happened in a very brief period of a decade or so.... How long has toyota and the other japs been building cars here?
They seen what a union could do to a company.. they had the advantage of 20/20 hindsight and the guts to fight it.
lazs