Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Kermit de frog on March 22, 2007, 03:13:39 AM
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My 4 year old computer no longer will play AH. Mobo doesn't like the game. :(
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Video Card:
BFG GeForce 7900 GS OC 256MB PCI Express®
or
BFG GeForce 7900G 256MB PCI-Express Graphic Card
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Processor:
Intel® Pentium® D Processor 945 - BX80553945 - Box CPU - Socket LGA775
or
Intel® Core™ 2 Duo E6300 - BX80557E6300 - Box CPU - Socket LGA775
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Power Supply
Antec TruePowerTrio 650W Power Supply
or
Antec 500W Power Supply
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Motherboard:
Asus P5B-E Intel® P965 Express
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Memory:
Kingston Dual Channel kit, I will need 2 of these for a total of 4 sticks
KHX4300D2K2/1G 1GB kit DDR2 533MHz (2x512mb sticks)
or
KHX5400D2K2/2G 2GB 675MHz DDR2 Non-ECC CL4 (2x1GB sticks)
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I will also buy SATA 3.0 120-200GB hard drives. (Qty: 2)
I will continue to use my Audigy 2 Sound Card
My Hauppage WinTV PCI card
My Sony DVD Rom Drive
My Sony CD/RW Drive
I don't want to spend more than $700 unless I spend some of that next month, but I need my AH addiction soon!
What should I do? I don't want to upgrade for 3 years minimum! A whole new system should not be needed for 4 to 5 years from now.
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BFG GeForce 7900 GS OC 256MB PCI Express®
this one.
Intel® Core™ 2 Duo E6300 - BX80557E6300 - Box CPU - Socket LGA775
this one
Antec TruePowerTrio 650W Power Supply
this one
KHX5400D2K2/2G 2GB 675MHz DDR2 Non-ECC CL4 (2x1GB sticks)
this one.
NOT
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People keep telling me the duo core is better, so I'll go with the Dual core.
I'm going to go with the E6400 instead of the E6300 because I'll get the higher multiplier for overclocking purposes. I promise not to overclock it too much.
7900 GS will be it!
Now the memory is iffy still.
Debating on going for faster memory.
Also the power supply. Antec TruePowerTrio 650 or 550. 1A difference on each of the 3 12V rails.
So, faster memory and lower power PSU?
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
People keep telling me the duo core is better, so I'll go with the Dual core.
I'm going to go with the E6400 instead of the E6300 because I'll get the higher multiplier for overclocking purposes. I promise not to overclock it too much.
Even the 1.8GHz lowest of the Conroes blows away the Pentium D 945.
Folks have been pushing this thing, safely, to 2.8GHz on its stock HS fan. That's how robust these things are.
The answer, from this day on (until AMD ever catches up) is Conroe. Always Conroe. There is no other choice.
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
Also the power supply. Antec TruePowerTrio 650 or 550. 1A difference on each of the 3 12V rails.
So, faster memory and lower power PSU? [/B]
A 650w PSU is way overkill for this system. 550 is even more than you need. I got a high wattage PSU for mine because of future growth (I tend to keep a case and PSU for a very long time) so if that is what you have in mind, a 650 is what you want. If not, a 450 or 500 will be fine.
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Hey Kermit
I'm upgrading too
I was going to go with:
Intel Core 2 duo E 6600 2.4 ghz (313.00)
ASUS P5W DH Deluxe LGA 775 975X(209.00)
Corsair xms2-6400 4-4-4-12 cas lat 4 2x1gb(175.00)
Stay with my ATI x850 PCI Express card ( if it doesn't do the job will go with GeForce 8800 GTS. Stay with my xfi soundcard
I would rather not spend the extra money if i don't have to.
Will your system run AH just as well?
Is there truly a big difference between this here and yours
I'm also just looking for a system that will run AH for awhile with upgrading as needed.
Don't want to thread steal, but i think this applies to the questions about upgrading that will help us and others as it seems like some common concerns.
Tnx Kermit
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I'll let you know my results troy.
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Kermit, I was recently in the same predicament as you, except I had an even TIGHTER budget. I opted for the E6300, and I'm VERY VERY glad I did! The performance of this "entry level" Core-duo is amazing.. and the temperature rarely hits 90f with the stock fan.
Here's what I got:
- E6300
- ASRock 775Dual-VSTA motherboard (has both AGP and PCI-e slots)
- 2 GB DDR2 ram (kingston)
- WD 160GB SATA HD
- Lite-on DVD/CDRW combo drive
Total investment $370 with shipping from newegg.
I reused:
- Case and 300W power supply (for now, but seems to be holding up just fine)
- CDROM drive
- Wireless network card
- GeForce 6200 AGP video card (256MB)
- Keyboard/Mouse/Monitor
- Windows XP Home
Even with this video card that's two generations old, I still crank out 50-70FPS consistently at 512 texts, sliders about 2/3 of the way towards detail. At 1024 texts with hi-res pack, I have to drop my sliders down to about halfway, and I still get 30-60FPS, but gets a little jittery during lots of action. I can't even imagine what a high-end video card would do with this setup!
I haven't attempted any overclocking yet, but am considering it!
Good luck! Let us know what you get!
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I went with the E6400 (higher multiplier)
I over clocked it from 2.18 to 2.4
I changed the system clock from 266MHz to 300MHz
(CPU Multiplier is 8x) 2.4GHz is then accomplished. Now it's at the same speed as the 6600 Processor and I only get an average of <3 degrees celcius increase, but minus the 4MB L2 cache vs my 2MBL2 cache.
My FSB is now faster than the E6600's from 1066MHz to 1200MHz
(FSB Multiplier was 4x)
400MHz = PC6400 or DDR2 800
333MHz = PC5400 or DDR2 667
I underclocked my memory from 400MHz to 375MHz.
So my FSB = 1200MHz while my Memory is now equivalent to 750*2 1500MHz
FSB - DRAM Ratio is 4:5. This may not be a 1:1, so I should kick back my memory to DDR2 600, which means 300MHz or 300*2 is 600MHz just to get a 1:1 FSB/DRAM ratio? I guess I won't go for a 1:1 ratio unless that means I will get a stable system, otherwise I won't bother.
BTW, my dram speeds are set to 2x, 2.5x and 3x of my system clock.
Maybe I should increase my system clock to 400MHz. I could get is up to 3.2GHz and a FSB of 1600 which will let me set my memory back up to 400MHz, thereby getting my full money's worth out of my memory. But, my Vcore voltage will have to go up along with temperatures. I've watercooled my system and I'm running at 37 degrees celcius, 2.4GHz FSB 1.2GHz.
system clock to 350 means, 3.0GHz CPU with 1400MHz FSB and dram (2x = 700 so I could get a FSB/DRAM ratio of 1:1
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Brief description on DDR memory so people can follow the above info:
DDR means double data rate and they are also DIMM's. Dual Inline Memory Modules(memory chips on both sides of memory sticks), each side operations on the DRAM frequency. This is why I was multiplying certain numbers by 2 to get the full equivalent frequency.
1 PC6400 means it transfers 6.4g/s of data with two sides operation at a frequency of 400MHz thereby acting like 1 stick going 800MHz speed. Put two sticks of memory in the system, one stick in each of the 2 memory channels and you got dual channel mode. Dual channel mode then says you can transfer up to 6.4g/s x 2 or (800MHz x 2) which is then 12.8g/s or 1600MHz.
(Lower case g is for gigabits vs gigabytes (G). bit is a 1 or 0 and byte is 8 1's or 0's.)
FSB is the speed at which the CPU communicates with the chipset and other chips on the motherboard. I've tested my Memory at 800MHz and 533MHz when my CPU/FSB were at stock settings (2.18GHz/1066MHz) and I saw a 0.1% difference in performance using a benchmark program. Why get DDR2 800 if you are not going to overclock?
Can someone read this post and tell me if I am wrong. It makes sense to me, but I'd like to make sure I'm understanding this correctly.
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I turn my E6400 2.18GHz FSB 1066MHz into
2.4GHz with a FSB of 1600MHz.
Overall performance was the same for a 2.4GHz procesor with either a FSB of 1200 or 1600MHz.
I made sure my Vcore was set to 1.375V and that helps me overclock and keep the power/temp down so that it doesn't go over 41 degrees celcius under full load.
I'm going to kick down my Vcore voltage another notch to see if it's stable.
I've noticed that AH doesn't use my CPU to 100%. The first CPU is about 60% and the right is about 30% so my bottleneck is my 7900GS OC video card. I've got AH and my video card maxed out in settings. FPS stays at 60 except when flying over CV's with lots of people (more than 10) it will drop to 38 and when I'm over a lot of forest about 1k or less above them, my fps will drop to 18. I haven't tried AH with FSB to 1600MHz.
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
II've noticed that AH doesn't use my CPU to 100%. The first CPU is about 60% and the right is about 30% so my bottleneck is my 7900GS OC video card. I've got AH and my video card maxed out in settings. FPS stays at 60 except when flying over CV's with lots of people (more than 10) it will drop to 38 and when I'm over a lot of forest about 1k or less above them, my fps will drop to 18. I haven't tried AH with FSB to 1600MHz.
Your FPS drops to 18 with a E6400 and a 7900GS? What the hell?
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Anisotropic Filtering: 16x
Antialiasing Settings: 8xS
Force mipmaps: Trilinear
Gamma correct antialiasing: On
Negative LOD bias: Clamp
Texture Filtering: High Quality
Transparency antialiasing: Supersampling
Triple buffering: On
Vertical sync: Force on
What are your settings? I'd like to compare.
My FPS are normally at 60 max, but drop to 18 when 100ft over forests.
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Im on a system that going on 6 years old so my "what the hell?" was due to being more than a little dejected your systems performance. I was looking at a very similar set up for my next rig and was expecting to be able to finally crank the sliders to max and go like hell.:(
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Sliders to the max doesn't really help much. It just displays trees further off into the distance before culling them.
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Maybe I want that.
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I changed the following settings in my video card:
Force mipmaps: None
Transparency antialiasing: Multisampling
Triple buffering: Off
Now my fps only drop to 30 when over a forest.
Everything else seems to look great still.
My FPS stay at 60 for everything else.
I'm upgrading to the BFG7950GT OC 512Mb soon. Returning my 7900GS OC. Price difference is very small so that's why I'm doing it.
BTW, my CPU temps are at 36 C when idle and go up to 40 C when playing AH.
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That 7950GT is nice from what Ive read. Keep me posted:aok
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I'll keep posting just for your you.:D
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I feel so warm and fuzzy.:O
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
I changed the following settings in my video card:
Force mipmaps: None
Transparency antialiasing: Multisampling
Triple buffering: Off
Now my fps only drop to 30 when over a forest.
Everything else seems to look great still.
My FPS stay at 60 for everything else.
I'm upgrading to the BFG7950GT OC 512Mb soon. Returning my 7900GS OC. Price difference is very small so that's why I'm doing it.
BTW, my CPU temps are at 36 C when idle and go up to 40 C when playing AH.
I wouldn't think you would get any fps drops at all with that rig. I am running 6xAA, AF none (app controlled), Mipmap to quality, max AH sliders, 1024 textures and everything enabled in AH except water. I haven't checked fps for a while but I never saw it drop below 60 @ 1280x1024 with everything running stock speeds.
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How did you post like that slash.......check time you post vs my previous post time. Glitch?
Dave, do you have a similiar card with options enabled like mine in your video settings?
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
How did you post like that slash.......check time you post vs my previous post time. Glitch?
Maybe the 11 hours between postings? Maybe?
:D
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
How did you post like that slash.......check time you post vs my previous post time. Glitch?
Dave, do you have a similiar card with options enabled like mine in your video settings?
My card is the ATI X1900 series in my sig with settings not that far off from your own.
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<------smacks forehead.
:)
Dave,
I read your sig, but didn't see your vid card at first. I was hoping for a more detailed answer about your settings for a comparison.
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
<------smacks forehead.
:)
Dave,
I read your sig, but didn't see your vid card at first. I was hoping for a more detailed answer about your settings for a comparison.
Originally posted by DAVENRINO . I am running 6xAA, AF none (app controlled), Mipmap to quality , max AH sliders, 1024 textures and everything enabled in AH except water. I haven't checked fps for a while but I never saw it drop below 60 @ 1280x1024 with everything running stock speeds.
[/B]
Hmm... I thought I already did.;)
Edit: 6x AA is max settting and Temporal AA and Adaptive AA are unchecked.
Mipmap is set to highest quality.
AF is controlled by Application = Off in AH
Vert refresh is on unless App requires off.
Triple buffering and Z buffer depth don't apply to AH as they are Open GL settings.
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I lowered my settings from Supersampling to Multisampling for transparency antialiasing and that keeps my Framerates from cutting in half when near trees.
My framerates stay at 60fps except when near a lot of planes and trees or cv, then they drop to 40.
I ended up getting a BFG 7950GT OC 512MB and getting the 550W Trio Antec PSU, it has a 120mm fan and helps keep my voltage regualtors on my mobo cooler. I also got a RAM cooler which does help, they used to be warm to touch, now, they are cool.
I then got a VGA waterblock and connected it to my watercooling system. I added some lights for the resorvoir which I will make 2x brighter later this month when I have time. I'll also put a small fan and better heatsink for my 965 chipset. It gets very hot to touch. My VGA temps were originally at 65 and with load 75 C. Now they stay 10C more than CPU which means VGA is now at 45 and goes up to 48C under load.
Thanks Dano for the great deal on the Video Card and PSU.
Here are a few pics of my Computer.
(http://lgmfilms.net/aceshigh/Comp/April%20PC%20Pics/DSC01950v1.jpg) (http://lgmfilms.net/aceshigh/Comp/April%20PC%20Pics/DSC01954v1.jpg)
(http://lgmfilms.net/aceshigh/Comp/April%20PC%20Pics/DSC01955v1.jpg)
(http://lgmfilms.net/aceshigh/Comp/April%20PC%20Pics/DSC01986v1.jpg)
(http://lgmfilms.net/aceshigh/Comp/April%20PC%20Pics/DSC01989v1.jpg)
(http://lgmfilms.net/aceshigh/Comp/April%20PC%20Pics/DSC01993v1.jpg)
(http://lgmfilms.net/aceshigh/Comp/April%20PC%20Pics/DSC01994v1.jpg)
(http://lgmfilms.net/aceshigh/Comp/April%20PC%20Pics/DSC01997v1.jpg)
(http://lgmfilms.net/aceshigh/Comp/April%20PC%20Pics/DSC01998v1.jpg)
(http://lgmfilms.net/aceshigh/Comp/April%20PC%20Pics/DSC02001v1.jpg)
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sweet set up Kermie.
um one question ... Your still keeping good airflow over your harddrives I hope .
I lost 2 hd's to heat or at least it helped drop there life to under a year .
The other thing is if you go further with ocing and the water starts getting to hot then you need to Double its capacity as for its not getting enough time to cool . 45c is my limit to a water setup anything over that then its time for more goodies .
Also check your radiator intake side once a month for those nasty Dust bunnies from hell .
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
sweet set up Kermie.
um one question ... Your still keeping good airflow over your harddrives I hope .
I lost 2 hd's to heat or at least it helped drop there life to under a year .
The other thing is if you go further with ocing and the water starts getting to hot then you need to Double its capacity as for its not getting enough time to cool . 45c is my limit to a water setup anything over that then its time for more goodies .
Also check your radiator intake side once a month for those nasty Dust bunnies from hell .
Yep I never buy a chassis without a slot for 120mm hd cooler anymore. They get burning hot without one and that will shorten their life greatly.
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2nd pic shows the 120mm intake fan in the front of the computer.
5th pic, you can see the HD, and then to the lower right, you can see part of the intake fan. I plan on buying another HD and putting it 2 notches below the first 1. The front intake fan is blowing directly onto the HD's. It really does allow them to be very cool to touch. Before, they used to be very warm.
I used a dremel to modify the case to allow the 120mm in the front and also had to cut some edges to allow the radiator to fit inside.
I've been told that I should upgrade to bigger pump and use a Y splitter so that the CPU and VGA waterblock aren't in series to allow better cooling to both units.
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I want to OC my FSB from 1200 to 1600 and increase my ram back up to 800MHz.
I'll need to keep my chipset cool. How should I do this?
Should I
A: Get a waterblock for the chipset and connect it to the watercooled system
or
B: Get a heatsink and fan.
My CPU temps vary from 30-40C and my GPU varies from 44-48C.
The heatsink I will want is the one by Thermaltake. 19dba of sound so it's very quiet. If I get a waterblock, should I then connect it after the CPU block or after the VGA block?
As of right now, my northbridge is very hot to touch. Its the one with the ASUS name on the heatsink (silver) between the CPU and Video card.
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how do you feel about your mainboard warrenty ?
if you mod the N bridge heatsink it will void it . unless its clipped on .
now the n bridge sink is ussually stuck on with stupid dbl back sticky tape and theres 3 ways to improve this .
1st you can get a small fan and install it on the heatsink or you can possition a side door fan to blow on top off it.
or go full out and remove the heatsink and go after improving this by either a fan cooled heatsink with artic silver under it or go for the water block with artic silver and you split the water line after the cpu and run 2 lines one for the N bridge and the other to the Gpu sink. you will most likely have to dbl your water capacity also .
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Is that a single radiator system kermit? If so you might be over doing it adding a chipset block. I have a Tt bigwater 745 with one 120mm and one 240mm radiators, if Tt sells the 240mm one seperate i would think about adding it externally in your situation .
Even thou i have the water system , i still run 5 80mm case fans, for the HD's and sound card , believe it or not my X-fi has a heatsink on it and can get toasty at times. GL 38
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Yes frog boy let me know how that 7950gt works out i might need a new card soon.
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7950gt is better than the 7900 gt, but the 7900GTX is better than the 7950gt
The 7900GTX was way too much for me, so the 7950GT is as High as I'll go. I got it for just under 300.
I've overclocked my 7950GT to 630 and I'll try to push it to 650(7900GTX speeds). I'll OC the vid mem to 1600 once I get a heatsink for them. Stock 7950gt speeds are 550MHz.
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Thank you frog, I will see if the 7900gtx is in my price range if not i will put betty back to work. Long live all swimmers.
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:lol
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While you guys are on the subject of video cards and cooling - what is generally considered the generally acceptable temp range for Nvidia gpu's? I got a 7900GS and its generally running from about 52C at idle up to the high 70's when playing STALKER. It runs in the 60's for AHII. I've temporarily put a slot cooler in that keeps temps where they are now. It was a few degrees hotter beforehand. I've got an Arctic Cooling Accelero X1 coming from Newegg. I've looked all over and haven't been able to find "official" tempertaure ranges for these cards. Thanks.
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Those temps are fine, ive seen high 60's on air , the core slowdown threshold warning for my 7800gt is 115C LOL , and it cant be changed in the nvidia control panel . I would really like to know when my GPU reaches 80C not 115C :huh
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Here's my settings Kermit:
AA-8S
AF-16X
Conformant Texture Clamp-Use Hardware
Gamma Correct AA-On
Force Mipmaps-Bilinear
Negative LOD Bias-Clamp
Transparency AA-Multisampling
Texture Filtering-Quality
AF Mip Optimization-On
AF Sample Optimization-On
Trilinear Optimization-On
Threaded Optimization-On
Triple Buffering-On
Vertical Sync-Force On
Have old monitor(ViewSonic 21 PS CAD-certified CRT-discontinued)so resolution is set at 1024x768x32 @ 75 RR.
AHII runs regardless of what's happening at 75 FPS rock steady but graphics look the same as if TF was set to High Quality.
Highest GPU temps recorded while playing @ 52*C.
All components running at stock rated speeds.
Hope this helps.
:)
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Pudgie, you may be able to turn AS off completely for Aces High and increase your force mipmaps to trilinear for better quality. I'm not sure if you'll notice a differnece between bilinear and trilinear.
Your temperatures sound right. I had a 7900GS OC that would run at 50-65 C in temps. If the GPU ever went past 80 C, I'd be worried myself about it.
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Uhh....what do you mean by AS there, Kermit?
Question,
How do you go about taking an in-game screenshot in AH & posting it here?
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AS = AF at least that's how I use the terms.
So your AF is set to 16x, but try turning it off and see if you can see a difference in quality. I can't see a difference anymore after this update from AH and I've been told it does nothing for Aces High.
Press ALT + S keys to take a picture of the game. They are then saved automatically in your Aces High Folder. They are saved as a bmp so you will need to convert them to jpg format. Search the BBS for instructions on posting screenshots on the web.
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Ahhhh..............I C.
What would help us all immensely w/ optimizing our boxes to run AH to their best is a listing of what commands the AH FE is sending to either Directx or to your GPU so that you don't end up replicating commands & slowing up the business w/ useless cycles.
Take for instance:
In the Video Settings:
When you check the boxes that tells AH to optimize Terrain or optimize Objects, the FE is sending instructions to the GPU to set some of the driver settings to some preset values. It would be nice to know exactly which settings are affected & how much, and if we should turn these off in AH if we want to tune all this from the vid card's control panel to stop replicating instructions to the vid card.
Hey HT, does this make sense?
:)
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(http://images.tomshardware.com/2007/03/28/a-beginners-guide-for-watercooling-your-pc/watrcool_complete.jpg)
for you kermie .
notice the split after the cpu . then it comes back together after the dual lines cool vga and chipset . If you can exit with a larger diameter hose to the radiator in this last leg it can really help . I have my 64 bit pc running 1/2 inch line here in the last leg to the rad and from the rad to the holding tank ... the rest is 3/8's hose.
but i also run a huge tranny cooler for a radiator and it lays in my mini fridge freezer along with almost 2 gals of distilled water antifreeze mix .
So if you wanted to increase water volume. just adding another radiator even without a fan would be a huge help when it comes time for serious OCing .
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Ok Kermit, I've done some revamping:
AA-4X (visually not enough difference to justify 8X)
AF-8X (visually not enough difference to justify 16X. This is 1 of the settings that I think is a waste of time setting it in your vid card's control panel due to the AH settings in Video Settings, if checked-especially the Optimize Objects & Optimize Terrain settings. I think that the AH FE controls this & in some small way may control AA as well.)
Conformant Texture Clamp-Use Hardware (same)
Gamma Correct AA-On(same)
Force Mipmaps-Bilinear(tried both ways & saw no difference. This is another setting that I think is no good to AH as AH FE uses mipmapping techniques & levels are pre-defined)
Negative LOD Bias-Clamp(same)
Transparency AA-Multisampling(same. Supersampling definitely better image-wise but just too much of a performance hit for the degree of image improvement, meaning the degree of image improvement wasn't enough to justify the degree of performance drop.)
Texture Filtering-Quality(same. Unless you have the latest high performance vid cards that can run texture filtering at full bore-High Quality setting-& not slow down any in FPS, this setting is about as far as you would need to go. My 7900GTX can do it but I just don't see a big enough image improvement to justify it, but I can certainly justify the extra power when in furballs, lots of smoke, etc.)
AF Mip Optimization-On(same)
AF Sample Optimization-On(same)
Trilinear Optimization-On(same)
Threaded Optimization-On(changed to Auto. Found out that this setting is best left for the game in question to decide & since AH FE is written to take advantage of multithreaded routines whether software-Hyperthreading-or hardware-dual core/multiple core CPUs & mobos-it will set this to ON anyway)
Triple Buffering-On(Found out that this setting only applies in OpenGL API, not D3D API-which AH uses-so this setting has no effect in AH & can be turned off if you don't have any games or apps that run in OpenGL. But go get Riva Tuner 2.0 Final & load the bundled utility D3D Overrider that comes w/ Riva Tuner. This utility forces any graphics card-whether Nvidia or ATI-to perform triple buffering under D3D thru the D3D API up to D9.x. Get this, you'll not regret it! I have found that this utility works better w/ your vid card than the game FE-games that have the setting to send TB to the vid card, haven't seen this setting in AH, but........-will in this regard)
Vertical Sync-Force On(same. Couple this w/ TB properly applied & it's the only way to go IMHO.)
This is where I'm at ATM.
Some of this stuff is the reason behind my previous posting that I believe that it would be very beneficial to the community if there was info included in the Readme that stated which vid card settings does the AH FE set upon initiation if certain settings/controls were picked in-game so that potential conflicts or performance degradation can be avoided.
Use at your leisure.
:D
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very cool Pudgie!!!
I hope skuzzy can comment on your findings such as whether he agrees with AH and video settings. Otherwise, I'm going to go with your findings!
Excellent post.
:aok
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Kermy.
Me and a mate of mine have been admiring your setup... or rather thinking wtf is with all the lights...
any chance of getting a pic of it from further back.?