Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FrodeMk3 on March 26, 2007, 04:52:01 PM
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I hate to start a seperate post on the subject, but alotta people are letting National pride, or what importance to the real war, production, etc. govern their voting on our next airframe. Has anyone thought about what it will mean to the MA's in terms of gameplay?(gameplay being enough of a problem as it is.) Do we introduce aircraft that make it even easier for the Base capture crowd? Do we bring in another cherrypicker? Another furballer? How many of you, had you the oppurtunity to vote on it, would have voted against aircraft we already have in the game??? Would you have voted for the LA-7? The Lanc? The HurriIIC?
I've heard people say they wish that NONE of those aircraft were in this game, for various reasons. But lots of people still fly them. So, if you're going to vote on the 28th, keep in mind that while many of the candidates have a historical perspective, What we use them for in the MA's might not let them pan out as what you thought. Thank you for your time.
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Well depending on what MA they are used in also counts for stuff as well.
Take the P-39 for instance. In the LW arenas it will probably be a hanger queen. MW it will probably make a very good middle of the road fighter. EW it will probably have to be perked, but it is an aircraft that can be used in all three. Same with the B-25. EW only has 3 bombers. Bostons, JU88's and perked Lancs. The B-25 would find heavy use there.
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Depending on versions for either, the B-25 and the P-39 probably will be too late to go in the EWA.
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For my part, I don't really consider the MA. I rarely fly over 2 hours on any of the MAs any given month.
But I do fly a lot of special events, and I design special events. For my purposes, the Brewster would be ideal. I would get to use my vast library of memoirs of Brewster pilots to create good historical snapshots and run them on every 3rd Thursday. :)
Yes, I'm selfish. I care not at all about whether the plane gets used in the MA. Why should I care?
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wasq: You're right, we could do craploads of Finn-Russ scenarios. But people burn out on them after awhile.
Talking to people in the MA's, endless mono-theme's are why most don't fly either the AvA or Snapshots.
EDIT: And the biggest problem with adding just the Brewster, is having to use stand-ins for it's opponents(No SB-2's, no I-16's, etc.) If we add the Brewster, we should add the other early soviet planes at the same time.
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I think the G55 should be added to the game.
Here is my rant against the B25 which i have a bad feeling will win:
i think that the B25 should not be added to the game. I have heard the it was used a lot.....ect ect They will be hanger queens. Even if you could up a formation....i think many ppl would up the B26s that we already have.
Some say it would be good against GVs...Ww have the A20 and it is a very able GV killer.
Some ppl say that if it can up from a CV they will pick it.
1. if this is the reason you are chosing it i think you are making a mistake. It will turn into a SBD/TBM/D3A/B5N ....if it went to an enemy base it would be slaughtered...its like attacking in a single B26.
2. I would hope HT would make it hard to up from a CV...It was not easy for the pilots that flew in the doolittle mission to get them off the deck.
3. this bomber doesn't carry that much ord.
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I say the HE111. It gives the German set another bomber that can be used in Combat Tour.
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I see no reason that the P39 would be a hanger queen in latewar.
It was built for low alt where the AH airwar is fought. It was fast on the deck.
Folks hear that it was a "dog', but they don't put it into the context of the airwar at the time. AH is not fought at high alt. It's a TAC airwar where the 39 could function just fine.
As for the B25, why wouldn't it get used? In particular if they add the up gunned later versions. Talk about a flak suppressor. A trio of 25s racing on the deck across the airfield with 12-14 MGs pointed forward isn't going to cause a fuss?
That and you HAVE to include the potential use for scenarios and special events.
A plane like the A26 while a great performer, was only in use for a very short time at the end of the war. A B25 covers every theater of the war from beginning to end. Talk about scenario use potential. 39 covers the same as it was there from beginning to end.
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Add planes that are needed for scenario's and events. What happens in the MA's is B.S..... They are just a place to play around till the next event.
If this was Airwarrior we wouldn't evening be having this discussion. It was always about the scenario's there....
CAVALRY
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
EDIT: And the biggest problem with adding just the Brewster, is having to use stand-ins for it's opponents(No SB-2's, no I-16's, etc.) If we add the Brewster, we should add the other early soviet planes at the same time.
That's true, we would need a few early Russian planes. What we can do with only the Brewster is basically 1942 onwards scenarios. The Brewster will be without doubt the slowest plane in the set.
And I do realize that we're in a minority here, but anyway, this is my opinion and I stick to it :) I think the problem about snapshots for majority of people is not the uniformity and conforming to historical restrictions, it's the attention span. A snapshot takes a while to organize and get everyone in position, it might take 15-30 minutes before any combat happens and that is beyond the length of attention span on some of the people.
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I agree with you, Dan...The '39 was WAY too widespread a plane to not have in here. Also consider that all of HTC's competitor's have one, and you wonder why it's not already in here. The same goes for the B-25, as well.
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I would use the B-25 to harass spawncampers and PT boats, and probably blow stuff up occasionally. I would use the P-39 to catch all of the planes that outrun the C Hurri, and to HO them.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
I agree with you, Dan...The '39 was WAY too widespread a plane to not have in here
The HE 111 was also extremely widespread! Dont make the mistake of just pinpointing one or other. If you argue that the 39 was widespread, the the HE was even more so if I remember correctlly. From Russia and Narfica to BoB! From pre war up to when? 42? 43? Id say thats widespread, so if the 39 is needed caus it was Widespread, then the 111 is vital
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Originally posted by Krusty
the P-39 probably will be too late to go in the EWA.
Depending on the years the EWA is supposed to cover. The P-39 was in the SWP theater at the start of the war for the US, as well as the P-400 varient. So if 1941-1942 is part of the EWA planetset era then the P-39C and the P-400 are perfect candidates for the EWA.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by wasq
The Brewster will be without doubt the slowest plane in the set.
Ju87 :D
EDIT:
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Depending on the years the EWA is supposed to cover. The P-39 was in the SWP theater at the start of the war for the US, as well as the P-400 varient. So if 1941-1942 is part of the EWA planetset era then the P-39C and the P-400 are perfect candidates for the EWA.
ack-ack
True, but seems most folks are asking for 39Ns and 39Qs... That's sort of what I was suggesting. They wouldn't make it into EWA, IMO. MW for sure, though.
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Originally posted by CAV
If this was Airwarrior we wouldn't evening be having this discussion.
CAVALRY
that's because they wouldn't give us new planes...
ack-ack
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Originally posted by 68slayr
...Here is my rant against the B25 which i have a bad feeling will win:
i think that the B25 should not be added to the game. I have heard the it was used a lot.....ect ect They will be hanger queens. Even if you could up a formation....i think many ppl would up the B26s that we already have.
Some say it would be good against GVs...Ww have the A20 and it is a very able GV killer.
Some ppl say that if it can up from a CV they will pick it.
1. if this is the reason you are chosing it i think you are making a mistake. It will turn into a SBD/TBM/D3A/B5N ....if it went to an enemy base it would be slaughtered...its like attacking in a single B26.
2. I would hope HT would make it hard to up from a CV...It was not easy for the pilots that flew in the doolittle mission to get them off the deck.
3. this bomber doesn't carry that much ord.
Pyro already said in the sticky that NO B25's will up from a CV even if it wins :aok
So we just need to get that word out when it comes time to vote!!
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well the A26 sounds like a monster and a half, and it has the sexy appearance of the A20 with many more guns! Basically I'm just all about the guns so I picked it.
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Originally posted by zorstorer
Pyro already said in the sticky that NO B25's will up from a CV even if it wins :aok
So we just need to get that word out when it comes time to vote!!
Considering it was only done once as a special mission, I would hope it wouldn't even be considered to give the B-25 that option.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Considering it was only done once as a special mission, I would hope it wouldn't even be considered to give the B-25 that option.
ack-ack
Very true...but thats the one consistent thought when folks clamor for the B25....
DOOLITTLE!!!!!!
At least if they know it won't happen...we might get something fun :aok
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Everyone's hoping for the 25H with the 75mm in the nose...But that won't happen, same as 25C's taking off from a CV.
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I vote I-16. I would use it in the LW MAs! Need something other than the Val for Kandy Mountan Mishuns!
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Everyone's hoping for the 25H with the 75mm in the nose...But that won't happen, same as 25C's taking off from a CV.
Surely there were more of these than several other planes we have. And, Pyro mentioned it, so I'm at least remaining hopeful.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Considering it was only done once as a special mission, I would hope it wouldn't even be considered to give the B-25 that option.
ack-ack
Well, P-40's and P-47's took off from CV's in the War as well, and we don't see them available on CV's, so I don't think we have to worry about B-25's.
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Considering the work that has gone on for CT, I honestly don't think HTC is concerned about the status or repercussions of this new plane in regard to the MA.
There are a lot of early war gaps that will need to be filled to give the CT a viable immersive feel.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
EW it will probably have to be perked
If that turns out to be true, there will be some serious problems with the 39 modeling.
- oldman
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I don't know, Oldman...It might be perked based on it's armament, The FM we'll have to wait and see.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Everyone's hoping for the 25H with the 75mm in the nose...But that won't happen, same as 25C's taking off from a CV.
OHHHH really.
Originally posted by Pyro
My synopsis IMHO.
B-25 – Cool plane, one of my favorites as a kid and another sentimental favorite for various reasons. Good for several variants and who wouldn’t want to fly a plane that has a 75mm cannon and 14 .50s?
Bronk
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Would you have voted for the LA-7? The Lanc? The HurriIIC?
The presence of the La5FN and the promice of an La7 was the reason I came to this game.........................
OK I am biased........but IMO the Yak3 is THE MA fighter ride of the pack thats on offer.
But to many it will be "just another Yak" I suppose we could argue that the Spit 8/Spit XVI are just other Spit's.
The ideal choice is one that....
1)Fills a unique hole in the MA set (its FM/ordinance combination)
2)Fills a unique hole in the Event set (its historic role WWII)
3)Would be a "popular" ride.
The P39N/Q meets 1 & 2 but may fall short on 3.
The Yak3 (IMO) meets 2 & 3 yet will be the Yak of choice in the MA if for no other reason than its superb vision out of the cockpit.
I dunno about the G55 never heard of it before this debate................
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I know, Bronk, I did'nt see that post by pyro...But, IF they were to give us a 25H, with the 75, then we could have some hope of seeing the Tse-tse fly, or 410 with the 50mm gun. I mean, the cat would be outta the bag, so to speak.
How the 25H would impact the arena's is only a guess, It would depend on ammo options for the 75.(AP wielding Mitchell's in TT, for example, or knocking out CV group ships with HE.)
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
I know, Bronk, I did'nt see that post by pyro...But, IF they were to give us a 25H, with the 75, then we could have some hope of seeing the Tse-tse fly, or 410 with the 50mm gun. I mean, the cat would be outta the bag, so to speak.
How the 25H would impact the arena's is only a guess, It would depend on ammo options for the 75.(AP wielding Mitchell's in TT, for example, or knocking out CV group ships with HE.)
This is why you should vote for it. It would set precedent for other flying large cannon birds. While I believe the B-25's was HE only. Others were not. The gv part of this game is growing (I say this by the numbers of tankers at tt.). Anti GV AC should reflect that growth.
Air craft like the Ju87-G2 and the Il2 type 3 (think is is the right variant)and other anti GV AC. Would IMHO keep blatant tiger spawn campers a bit of pause. No more sitting on top of a hill with a clear view of the spawn. They'd have to at least get in a bit of cover, with limited view and firing opportunities.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
and the Il2 type 3 (think is is the right variant)and other anti GV AC
IL10 ?
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Originally posted by Tilt
IL10 ?
Nope
Il-2 Type 3M - 37 mm Nudelman-Suranov NS-37 cannons, instead of 23 mm VYa cannons.
Bronk
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I'm gonna do a quick little rundown of what it seems are the leading contenders, judging by the threads started.
First;
The Brewster. It is almost a national icon in Finland, and achieved a heckova kill ratio there. But, being either on par, or inferior in performance to the current F4F, I would guess it would be a hangar queen outside of AvA or scenarios(and possibly the EW, at least until the novelty wore off.)
The G.55-If you go to that thread and read performance stats, It would be a fighter plane that would hold it's own in either the MW or even LW. However, it would be exactly that-Just another fighter. We have plenty of those already.(P-51,F4U,Typh,Fw-190,ME-109,etc.)
P-39: Historically important(like the Brewster), Used by most of the allied nations, Not particularly fast, but Heavily armed. Not sure about it's manueverability, gotta see one from HTC before we could judge it. Might span all the MA's, but not sure about EW.
The HE-111, a bomber this time, has been wanted for a complete BoB scenario since the start. As far as usage in the MA, It would be useful in EW/MW for sure. Especially EW. If it's allowed it's historical ord options.
The B-25, which would span several models, Is kinda up in the air as far as usage goes, because it depends on which B-25 it is. The Earlier ones, such as the C's, would be used in the EW or MW for sure. The later Gun pack models could make quite an impact on the LW's, especially if it was the 75mm. version. Therefore, It depends on HTC as to which version we get.
A Yak-3, if modeled as the most manueverable fighter of the war at low lvl, as has been claimed, would definetely get usage, even in the competitive LW arena's. If it could outturn, or at least turn with a Zeke, but be about 60 mph. faster, this thing would be a monster.
The Japanese planesets have several proposals pushed forward, which while filling several holes in AvA and scenario planesets, would be hard to gauge their impact on the MA crowd. For example, the P-51B is a pony, performance is not very much different from it's P-51D sibling, but it does'nt get even half as much usage as the D. Why? Probably the armament and views. The same thing will apply to the Japanese planeset. The Ki-44, whilst being a good performer, was armed with 4x 12.7mm machineguns in it's most produced version. There were cannon armed versions, but whether or not this is the one we get, is up in the air. The J2M2 and J2m3 were armed with 4x20mm's...These would probably get more usage than their lack of manuverability would lead you to believe.The Ki-43, which would be EW, would have the weakest Fighter armament of any fighter in the game(2X7.7mm's for early models, 2x12.7mm's in ltr) and would be one of the slowest as well. But, It's manuverability and turning radius would be even better than the A6m's.
The ME-410, While seeming to be an improvement over the 110G, would'nt truly be a departure until fitted with the 50mm AT gun. Alot of incomplete data on this plane, concerning turning radius, climb, etc. This one is harder to guess at...But it would have about the same impact, gameplay wise, as the 110.
This list is by no means complete. We still have some of the aircraft listed by Pyro that aren't here. But, These seem to be the ones with the most supporters at the moment. The real problem with this list, is that we eventually could use ALL of them. The biggest problem with this whole voting process is the fact that we only get one.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Il-2 Type 3M - 37 mm Nudelman-Suranov NS-37 cannons, instead of 23 mm VYa cannons.
Ahh the Il-2-37. 2 x NS37 with 50 rnds per gun. But at 552lbs per gun the plane was both difficult to fly and aim accurately.
A small batch deployed during Kursk did not see much use afterwards.
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Tilt anything with that weight added to it becomes more difficult to fly.
Yak-t vs Yak U
Hurri IIc vs IId
I find that plinking GV with heavy cannon much more fun than egging them.
The point was just to get more of that type of AC (anti tank) in game.
Bronk
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Originally posted by aztec
Considering the work that has gone on for CT, I honestly don't think HTC is concerned about the status or repercussions of this new plane in regard to the MA.
There are a lot of early war gaps that will need to be filled to give the CT a viable immersive feel.
If CT really does start at the end of the war, the early years aren't going to be of much concern.
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Another furballer? How many of you, had you the oppurtunity to vote on it, would have voted against aircraft we already have in the game??? Would you have voted for the LA-7? The Lanc? The HurriIIC?
Given the chance, I wouldn't vote against adding anything. The more the merrier. There are planes I'd rather see first, but I wouldn't remove anything but formations.
Lastly, with regards to the "it would have to be perked" mindset- remember the Ki-84 whines that started before anyone had even flown one? To hear some people, it was going to become the only fighter anyone flew, and was going to do everything too well, and would have to be perked, or the earth would stop rotating around the sun. Those guys turned out to be completely off base as well.
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Lastly, with regards to the "it would have to be perked" mindset- remember the Ki-84 whines that started before anyone had even flown one? To hear some people, it was going to become the only fighter anyone flew, and was going to do everything too well, and would have to be perked, or the earth would stop rotating around the sun. Those guys turned out to be completely off base as well.
I sometimes wonder, Hubs, If that's why the Ki-84 is the only LW Fighter plane we have that comes apart in a dive.
That plane isn't an uber ride because it has some of the most horrible dive characteristics of any plane in the game.
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Hey! I fly that plane most of the times and it's not that horrible if you know how to dive it! I can pull out of dives at 450 mph, with everything around me making sinister sounds.... :D
Anyway, back on topic...
The G.55-If you go to that thread and read performance stats, It would be a fighter plane that would hold it's own in either the MW or even LW. However, it would be exactly that-Just another fighter. We have plenty of those already.(P-51,F4U,Typh,Fw-190,ME-109,etc.)
As you said, Frode, the G.55 would hold its own in MW AND in LWs. Just another fighter, you say? Well, then that applies to many of the entries, including the Yak3, the P39, the Japanese planes and the Brewster... so why not a G.55? I think this plane can do good, both in MAs and the incoming CT: it has a fair speed, good handling and maneuverability, especially at high altitude, it's a stable plane and has a powerful armament with a good ammo load. While some of the planes proposed could do well only in the AvA or SEA, and have use in those arenas, the G.55 would be used in MAs, and it wouldn't be a hangar queen. The C.205 already has its lovers: well both the Regia Aeronautica and the Luftwaffe thought the G.55 was better than the Veltro!
So, think about it, this plane is a good addition to the game, not only for historical scenarios, but even, and above all, for MAs and CT.
Tilt, if you want to know more about it: http://xoomer.alice.it/g55/index.htm. This site has good info, watch especially the "Data" and "History" section: just mind the footnotes, the author added more sources without updating the reference in the notes, so they're not correct (but the data are ;))
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I dont buy into the "hangar queen" arguement for any plane.
I see em all in the MA. There are very few real hangar queens.
Actually the most hangar queened planes are IMO the perked planes
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Screw the oddball planes. P-39 or B-25! We need more American planes, especially those that served for long periods, or in many theaters. While I'd love to see everything make it in eventually, the one hit wonders and oddballs should take a backseat, IMO. Anything that would mesh well with the MAs, and open up new possibilities for Spec Events and scenarios (more than a single event, to be specific) would seem to offer the most bang for the buck, both for the MA and SEA crowds.
End shameless plug for the 2 I'd prefer. ;)
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Anything that would mesh well with the MAs, and open up new possibilities for Spec Events and scenarios (more than a single event, to be specific) would seem to offer the most bang for the buck, both for the MA and SEA crowds.
That's right. But we have enough American planes, for now. Vote for something else, something that may be good for Scenarios and especially MAs and CT... guess what? :D
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squash the brewster, its junk guys!!!!, turns worse and is slower that an f4f4 ............................