Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: blackdog68 on March 26, 2007, 10:39:46 PM
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Co-alt merge, myself in Spit9 doing 320 IAS versus P-38(not L, we are in Mid-War) claiming to be at 415 IAS. About 10K of alt.
After HO pass, guns quiet, turn around to look immediately and P-38 is banking hard in a level turn. Easy kill, or so I thought. I start to zoom climb to come over the top, next thing I know P-38 is turned and 800-600-400 off my 6 while I'm still climbing before her cannons do the rest.
OK...so what's going on here. I say warp. P-38 pilot states she "ruddered to bleed speed, dropped his flaps, turned 180 degrees (apparently on a dime), and then climbed up to me".
OK, rudder and flaps bleeds E. As does the 180. So how did she match my zoom climb?
I say warp.
But she can't let it go. And can't duplicate her feat either.
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i say you ran into a much better pilot than yourself. It happens.
Without a film, theres no way we can know.
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Without a film of it, its all total subjective speculation. There are a number of possibilities:
1. Lead turn. Just because he appeared to get around "180" fast doesnt mean he pulled extremely high Gs.
2. The E states at the merge were not in your favor, either from you having less speed that you thought or claim, and the enemy having more than you thought.
3. Combination of both the above.
4. You started to go straight up too early (or too late) and thus slowed down right above the P38. Try extending a little if the range is too close, but dont leave it too long as they'll regain speed. Timing and E estimation is everything. Or better yet, start a climbing turn above him which forces him to keep pulling Gs with the nose high to get the shot. This is a much safer option than just going straight up and over. Same result and easier to reverse back onto them.
Note that at the top of your immelman your almost stationary and sitting there, so any velocity from the P38 will carry it towards you. Also you need more E than the P38 does to go up AND then over and still have control. And yet you need even more E than that if you hope to stay outside of about 800 yards (the max gun range). Failure to get that E advantage leaves you a sitting duck for a few seconds.
Also a P38 is extremely stable at slow speeds in the vertical with its counter-rotating props. It experiences no counter-rotational force from the engine/prop as a single engined/single prop aircraft does. So it wont have the tendency to start to twist and get into an accelerated stall/spin when it gets too slow for the wings and rudder to counter the rotational force the prop/engine exerts.
Far too many claims of "we met head-on and he turns 180 and then catches me up" claims are made. Not one of them has ever came with a film which shows anything out of the ordinary.
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I'm the P-38 driver that he was referring to.
I guess calling me a cheater back when this took place a few weeks ago and again earlier in the LWA wasn't enough. I guess this is your "attempt" at proving you're right.
BigR hit the nail on the head, you just ran into someone that was better than you. No tricks, hacks or cheats...just good ol' flying and knowing how to get the most out of my plane.
If you had noticed, I was nose down as we were approaching and as you were approaching 800 yards from the merge, I pulled into you so that when you'd pass I'd be on your six, basically a Low Yo-Yo on the merge. I'm building up E on the merge with the Yo-Yo. And I'm pulling no more then 3g's so my E loss is almost minimul. The result is that I've got plenty of energy to match any vertical move you make in the Spitfire Mk IX.
After the merge, you immediately went into a shallow climb and then after I came around, you went into a zoom climb. Now, this is going to be a shock to you but the P-38 is far better than the Spitfire Mk IX in the vertical. So, you went up and I followed you up, gaining on you the entire time. As you were approaching stall speed, you attempted what looked like a High Yo-Yo. At this point, I had two choices. 1) I could have continued my vertical climb pass you and then come down on you from above or 2) I can kick full rudders with opposite aileron and skid my plane and burn excess energy to keep on your six. I decided to go with option #2.
As you were coming over the top of what appeared to be an attempt at a High Yo-Yo, I had already bled any excess energy I had and was approaching the stall, rolled by plane over on its back and as you were coming down from the Yo-Yo, had a beautiful shot on your Spitfire Mk IX. The end result was catastrophic, which is usually the case when you're plane gets hit by close to 15-20 20mm rounds. Actually think that was one of my better shots, hit with almost the entire burst.
The merge tactics I used on this fight is what I most commonly use in all my fights, so I really don't have any problems replicating the merge. Nor was my merge a flat turn, as I always use transient turns (helps throw off the aim if someone's on your 6) and I always use the vertical in some form on the merge.
Now I hope you learned a few important lessons.
-Just because you get shot down and can't understand how the other guy was able to out fly you, doesn't mean they are cheating.
-Not smart to use the vertical against a P-38 unless you have overwhelming energy advantage
-You got your arse kicked. It's really that simple.
ack-ack
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pwn
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I should have known it was ack-ack in the 38.
Nube got pwnd by a better pilot, end of story.
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Well put Akak.
Film it, grab a drink, watch it, grab another drink, and put it into practice.
You will be carrying home Akak scalps before ya know it:)
Good luck!:aok
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I've been shooting down a girl?!
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Excellent explaination AKAK, some people have a hard time understanding "the vertical".
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Killed juvenile on arena, came here and killed him again.
Akak, do you know the word "mercy"?
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"She" maybe referring to the plane, not the pilot.
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BTW, Akak, could you explain what he had to do to beat you in that situation.
Or, in other words, what would you do being in Spit9 against really good pilot in P38.
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Originally posted by Vad
BTW, Akak, could you explain what he had to do to beat you in that situation.
Or, in other words, what would you do being in Spit9 against really good pilot in P38.
Turn and make him/her/it bleed energy. Try to get the 38 slow.
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Originally posted by blackdog68 I start to zoom climb to come over the top, next thing I know P-38 is turned and 800-600-400 off my 6 while I'm still climbing before her cannons do the rest.
You lost any hopes of winning with this move. Unless you have more E than the 38, diving is better than climbing.
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I'm the P-38 driver that he was referring to.
I guess calling me a cheater back when this took place a few weeks ago and again earlier in the LWA wasn't enough. I guess this is your "attempt" at proving you're right.
BigR hit the nail on the head, you just ran into someone that was better than you. No tricks, hacks or cheats...just good ol' flying and knowing how to get the most out of my plane.
If you had noticed, I was nose down as we were approaching and as you were approaching 800 yards from the merge, I pulled into you so that when you'd pass I'd be on your six, basically a Low Yo-Yo on the merge. I'm building up E on the merge with the Yo-Yo. And I'm pulling no more then 3g's so my E loss is almost minimul. The result is that I've got plenty of energy to match any vertical move you make in the Spitfire Mk IX.
After the merge, you immediately went into a shallow climb and then after I came around, you went into a zoom climb. Now, this is going to be a shock to you but the P-38 is far better than the Spitfire Mk IX in the vertical. So, you went up and I followed you up, gaining on you the entire time. As you were approaching stall speed, you attempted what looked like a High Yo-Yo. At this point, I had two choices. 1) I could have continued my vertical climb pass you and then come down on you from above or 2) I can kick full rudders with opposite aileron and skid my plane and burn excess energy to keep on your six. I decided to go with option #2.
As you were coming over the top of what appeared to be an attempt at a High Yo-Yo, I had already bled any excess energy I had and was approaching the stall, rolled by plane over on its back and as you were coming down from the Yo-Yo, had a beautiful shot on your Spitfire Mk IX. The end result was catastrophic, which is usually the case when you're plane gets hit by close to 15-20 20mm rounds. Actually think that was one of my better shots, hit with almost the entire burst.
The merge tactics I used on this fight is what I most commonly use in all my fights, so I really don't have any problems replicating the merge. Nor was my merge a flat turn, as I always use transient turns (helps throw off the aim if someone's on your 6) and I always use the vertical in some form on the merge.
Now I hope you learned a few important lessons.
-Just because you get shot down and can't understand how the other guy was able to out fly you, doesn't mean they are cheating.
-Not smart to use the vertical against a P-38 unless you have overwhelming energy advantage
-You got your arse kicked. It's really that simple.
ack-ack
blkdg68 is a fun person to watch on 200. He appeared out of nowhere and was spewing drivel on 200, Friday night. He seems to be someone who is a shades and has a chip on his shoulder.
AKAK, the sad thing about this is, he won't learn from it. Most people don't realize what the 38 is capable of. I've flown it enough and probably know 40% of it's ability.
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Now as someone who has faced Ack Ack he is just that good in the 38. I have seen him warp and according to him he relogged and didnt see him warp the next fight all I saw was a 38 pulling some amazing moves and me going OH ***** I know who this is!!!!!!
Blkdg you got owned plain and simple. Ack Ack is one of the best 38 Fighter guys in the game.
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Trying to zoom on him with a Spitfire was probably your biggest mistake. Spits may be low-drag with good engines, but they're LIGHT birds. Zoom is largely ruled by mass, so unless you have a significant starting energy advantage you don't have a PRAYER of out-zooming the heavier American iron like the P-38 and F4U.
Would have been better to have gone nose-low and either force him to bleed off airspeed and drag him into a close fight or overspeed and compress (but a good pilot can use throttle, trim and rudder to keep the airspeed controllable).
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Fair enough, Ack Ack. My fault.
Now can we let it go now that its been ~3 weeks and you were on me about it again last night?
Karaya - You got it backwards. I issued an expletive abbreviation for being vulched again, which of course got me banned for 10 and you used the whole 10 mins to trash talk.
Note we kept the base, so this was not a case of re-upping for no reason. And also note your teammates were repeatedly using the "drop paratroopers to misdirect AA" tactic.
What started last night is the 'BS' I uttered about the 3 formation laser guns on bombers. The exact same thing complained about on here ad nauseum. I'm sorry, the 3 formation laser gun is NOT historically accurate.
As for newbie, I do have a lot to learn about the flight models in AH, but I have thousands of hours in CFS's of 1 sort or another, mostly Fighter Ace and online CFS "back in the day". As for a reputation, sorry, in the 3 months I've been in AH you can count AKAK and Karaya (only because Karaya started it, I fess up to starting on AKAK with his Houdini like 38) as the only 2 trash talking episodes.
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...and now back to our feature presentation,
"Gunfight At The OK Corral."
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Originally posted by blackdog68
...After HO pass, guns quiet, turn around to look immediately and P-38 is banking hard in a level turn....
From your description, this is where you lost. You didn't do anything until after the pass. Ack-Ack was already turning before the pass (lead turn). And a 38 with speed will do all kinds of nice things in the vertical.
Regards,
Hammer
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Originally posted by Vad
BTW, Akak, could you explain what he had to do to beat you in that situation.
Or, in other words, what would you do being in Spit9 against really good pilot in P38.
I know what I would do if I were in a situation like that and the 38 driver was Akak, Murder, Crims, Pick, VonHoltz, and a slew of others... I'd stick my head between my legs and kiss my buttocks goodbye.
All the Best...
Jay
awDoc1
PS.. The P-38 is an amazing plane and can do some really great stuff that cannot be done with other planes if flown by someone who knows it's capabilities.
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"pilot"
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by blackdog68
Fair enough, Ack Ack. My fault.
Karaya - You got it backwards. I issued an expletive abbreviation for being vulched again, which of course got me banned for 10 and you used the whole 10 mins to trash talk.
As for a reputation, sorry, in the 3 months I've been in AH you can count AKAK and Karaya (only because Karaya started it, I fess up to starting on AKAK with his Houdini like 38) as the only 2 trash talking episodes.
Sorry, but you kept upping. I vultched you once, shamus had vulched you twice. The reason I was messing with YOU, is you had it backwards. You thought I vultched you twice.
But, you kept upping. :aok
I didn't trash talk for 10 mins. I was too busy shooting down cons in a Ki61 to trash talk. Anytime you wish to stroll to the DA and learn, give me a ring. I have no beef with you or anyone over a GAME.
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blackdog68 Co-alt merge, myself in Spit9 doing 320 IAS versus P-38(not L, we are in Mid-War) claiming to be at 415 IAS. About 10K of alt.
Blackdog, I noticed this right off the bat....
IAS on the deck is pretty much true airspeed. At 10k, you need to correct it. Look at the little red mark on the IAS to determine your actual airspeed, or go to your clipboard and pull up your E6B. Your actual speed should have been somewhat faster (350 or so) and Ack's as well.
But, being as he had an E advantage, plus with no film, that's all that we can really suppose at this time....
Having driven the 38J quite a bit myself, I'm guessing that for the reverse turn, Ack coulda dropped some flaps, too.
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Originally posted by doc1kelley
I know what I would do if I were in a situation like that and the 38 driver was Akak, Murder, Crims, Pick, VonHoltz, and a slew of others... I'd stick my head between my legs and kiss my buttocks goodbye.
All the Best...
Jay
awDoc1
PS.. The P-38 is an amazing plane and can do some really great stuff that cannot be done with other planes if flown by someone who knows it's capabilities.
I would do the same but I was asking what Akak would do. Hope he would find something better
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Having a Bullseye painted on your tail.........Annoying
Still being low in the learning curve..............Really Annoying
Getting waxed by AckAck and other Vets.....SUCKS!
Learning from the encounters w/ the aforementioned Pilot and other top sticks.........PRICELESS!!!
to you all....and.....Thanks!
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shamus does not vulch..he "field suppresses".
shamus
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Originally posted by Vad
I would do the same but I was asking what Akak would do. Hope he would find something better
While I'm no 38 expert. I'd try and get the fight to medium speeds.
250 -300 range I'd say would be best. DO NOT FOLLOW THEM UP, unless you have the E advantage.
Avoid B-n-Z till in that range. Do not get suckered into the ultra low fight where the 38's no torque stalls can be used to an advantage.
I'm sure I'll get corrected.
Bronk
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If you had noticed, I was nose down as we were approaching and as you were approaching 800 yards from the merge, I pulled into you so that when you'd pass I'd be on your six, basically a Low Yo-Yo on the merge. I'm building up E on the merge with the Yo-Yo. And I'm pulling no more then 3g's so my E loss is almost minimul. The result is that I've got plenty of energy to match any vertical move you make in the Spitfire Mk IX.
OK...
But a couple of points to make:
I matched the first part of your low yo-yo with a nose down bank at you. You, at least on my screen, did not have more than a couple of degrees of your 180 completed at the time we passed. I'm not going to let you lead turn into me in that situation.
After the merge, you immediately went into a shallow climb and then after I came around, you went into a zoom climb. Now, this is going to be a shock to you but the P-38 is far better than the Spitfire Mk IX in the vertical
Yes, it is a shock and the crux of my point of view. Now I rarely fly Spits except as adversary training since I'm usually in an LA-5 unless I need to JABO or actually want to be airborne for more than 25 minutes per sortie :). However, a/t the actual WW2 flight test docs I could find, and the Aces High flight test evaluation charts, the Spit should be at least equal if not hold a slight advantage in climb rate.
So, what I was trying to do was bleed any E you had left, then rope you vertical. Although that was plan B after seeing how quickly you went from quiet (TY) HO to 6. Plan C was to stall/hammerhead and make you overshoot, but your cannons quickly put an end to any further planning... :eek:
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Originally posted by Shamus
shamus does not vulch..he "field suppresses".
shamus
:rofl
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Yes, it is a shock and the crux of my point of view....the actual WW2 flight test docs I could find, and the Aces High flight test evaluation charts, the Spit should be at least equal if not hold a slight advantage in climb rate.
Having a better sustained climb rate is not the same as performing better in the vertical or having a better zoom ability. The 38 is fantastic in the vertical and has very good zoom ability. From anywhere near co-E, it will follow a spitfire up no problem.
Regards,
Hammer
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Originally posted by 68Boomer
Getting waxed by AckAck and other Vets.....SUCKS!
Learning from the encounters w/ the aforementioned Pilot and other top sticks.........PRICELESS!!!
to you all....and.....Thanks!
Getting smeared by the golden arms is itself priceless. This is why you keep the film rolling; never know when a lesson is going to happen.
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Originally posted by Bronk
While I'm no 38 expert. I'd try and get the fight to medium speeds.
250 -300 range I'd say would be best. DO NOT FOLLOW THEM UP, unless you have the E advantage.
Avoid B-n-Z till in that range. Do not get suckered into the ultra low fight where the 38's no torque stalls can be used to an advantage.
I'm sure I'll get corrected.
Bronk
I'm no Spitfire expert but what Bronk said and what Spatula said is what I'd do if the situation was reversed.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by blackdog68
Yes, it is a shock and the crux of my point of view. ..... However, a/t the actual WW2 flight test docs I could find, and the Aces High flight test evaluation charts, the Spit should be at least equal if not hold a slight advantage in climb rate.
There is a huge difference between a sustained climb, and a zoom climb.
Huge. Massive. Important.
In a zoom climb, a plane with excess speed is nosing up -- and is carried by TWO things. The biggest factor will be its momentum -- as in mass times speed. THATS why the 38, and other big birds like the Corsair (my current sweetheart) will rip past the spit in a zoom climb. There's so much mass in motion that it takes an awful lot of climb to slow it down.
The second factor in a zoom climb is how much energy the powerplant adds to the vertical climb while climbing. The spit has an advantage there, and in sustained climb.
ANother point you MUST keep in mind when fighting 38s in the vertical is that rotational factors are neutralized by the contr-rotating props. Other planes get progressively stronger low speed tendencies to fall off toward one side, determined by the direction of prop rotation. Because 38s dont have to fight this, they maintain control far better at the top of the zoom, and stall less (since pilots dont need to input airelon and/or rudder to keep nose on target.)
And welcome to the big leagues. The top pilots in here may have 10-15 years experience in their birds, and may have deep technical flight study. I've found the game to be humblng, but rewarding.
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Originally posted by blackdog68
However, a/t the actual WW2 flight test docs I could find, and the Aces High flight test evaluation charts, the Spit should be at least equal if not hold a slight advantage in climb rate.
There is a difference between climb rate and vertical climb. Just because a plane has a better climb rate doesn't translate to having a better vertical climb as well.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I'm no Spitfire expert but what Bronk said and what Spatula said is what I'd do if the situation was reversed.
ack-ack
Thank you but I would like to know what would you do in that exact situation. Or, if you are not Spit expert which Spit actions would make you worry in that situation?
You gave excellent analysis of that fight, and only what you missed is detailed advice what he had to do.
The reason why I'm asking that is I actually hardly see any other options but climb. Ok, I'm in Spit, we are Co-e, I see you starting shallow dive with intention to make lead turn with low Yo-Yo.
My options:
1) Flat turn. But merge will be lost for sure, you will zoom, reverse and get better position on top where you will be untouchable.
2) Climb and zoom hoping to rope you, but we saw the result.
3) Go to immel/loop but it's just give you great shot on the top, and after that position on top.
4) Dive and run. The best but... you know...
So, the question is: what should I do on the first merge in Spit against P38 (or any other combination where I against fighter with better zoom)? What's the best manoeuvre if I want to enforce P38 medium speed turn fight without giving him E advantage in the beginning? Or there is only one way to that - give up Co-e position, let him go on top and B-n-Z me for a while trying to bleed his E?
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Ack-Ack, Simaril, and Hammer have all hit the nail on the head(No pun intended Hammer!) Vert fighting and sustained rate of climb are two different things entirely. Whereas a Spit IX does alright in the Vert, The P-38 is just about King-of-the-hill, being challenged most closely by (possibly) the 109K-4 or G-14. The N1K2 is famous in this game for it's ability to hang on it's prop, so are a coupla others. About the best thing you can do is experiment offline by using max lvl speed over an airfield, and pulling into a vert climb, starting at the same alt as the offline drones. Then, use your F3 view, and see how far away from the icons you climb before you stall.
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Originally posted by Vad
Thank you but I would like to know what would you do in that exact situation. Or, if you are not Spit expert which Spit actions would make you worry in that situation?
You gave excellent analysis of that fight, and only what you missed is detailed advice what he had to do.
The reason why I'm asking that is I actually hardly see any other options but climb. Ok, I'm in Spit, we are Co-e, I see you starting shallow dive with intention to make lead turn with low Yo-Yo.
My options:
1) Flat turn. But merge will be lost for sure, you will zoom, reverse and get better position on top where you will be untouchable.
2) Climb and zoom hoping to rope you, but we saw the result.
3) Go to immel/loop but it's just give you great shot on the top, and after that position on top.
4) Dive and run. The best but... you know...
So, the question is: what should I do on the first merge in Spit against P38 (or any other combination where I against fighter with better zoom)? What's the best manoeuvre if I want to enforce P38 medium speed turn fight without giving him E advantage in the beginning? Or there is only one way to that - give up Co-e position, let him go on top and B-n-Z me for a while trying to bleed his E?
Depends on the attacker.
If their dive is too steep and fast. Wait till they are about 1k out zoom up above their lvl fight recovery and start regaining E.
Shallower dive, split s with a bit of turn so as not to be predicted. Once again shallow climb on exit to regain some E.
The object is to get them in your preferred speed range.
The thing to note though. If this is a good 38 stick he WONT become impatient and play your game.
Bronk
Edit: oops didn't see the Co E
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I'm the P-38 driver that he was referring to.
I guess calling me a cheater back when this took place a few weeks ago and again earlier in the LWA wasn't enough. I guess this is your "attempt" at proving you're right.
BigR hit the nail on the head, you just ran into someone that was better than you. No tricks, hacks or cheats...just good ol' flying and knowing how to get the most out of my plane.
If you had noticed, I was nose down as we were approaching and as you were approaching 800 yards from the merge, I pulled into you so that when you'd pass I'd be on your six, basically a Low Yo-Yo on the merge. I'm building up E on the merge with the Yo-Yo. And I'm pulling no more then 3g's so my E loss is almost minimul. The result is that I've got plenty of energy to match any vertical move you make in the Spitfire Mk IX.
After the merge, you immediately went into a shallow climb and then after I came around, you went into a zoom climb. Now, this is going to be a shock to you but the P-38 is far better than the Spitfire Mk IX in the vertical. So, you went up and I followed you up, gaining on you the entire time. As you were approaching stall speed, you attempted what looked like a High Yo-Yo. At this point, I had two choices. 1) I could have continued my vertical climb pass you and then come down on you from above or 2) I can kick full rudders with opposite aileron and skid my plane and burn excess energy to keep on your six. I decided to go with option #2.
As you were coming over the top of what appeared to be an attempt at a High Yo-Yo, I had already bled any excess energy I had and was approaching the stall, rolled by plane over on its back and as you were coming down from the Yo-Yo, had a beautiful shot on your Spitfire Mk IX. The end result was catastrophic, which is usually the case when you're plane gets hit by close to 15-20 20mm rounds. Actually think that was one of my better shots, hit with almost the entire burst.
The merge tactics I used on this fight is what I most commonly use in all my fights, so I really don't have any problems replicating the merge. Nor was my merge a flat turn, as I always use transient turns (helps throw off the aim if someone's on your 6) and I always use the vertical in some form on the merge.
Now I hope you learned a few important lessons.
-Just because you get shot down and can't understand how the other guy was able to out fly you, doesn't mean they are cheating.
-Not smart to use the vertical against a P-38 unless you have overwhelming energy advantage
-You got your arse kicked. It's really that simple.
ack-ack
wow there is really no other way to describe this other than pure domination.
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When in a Mk IX And I merge with a co alt But unknown speed 38...
I have learned it is best not to. That is to say I wait to see what he does 1st.
If he does the usual 3000000 zoom climb, I'll shallow climb away at around 250-270 mph. Once he starts his boom at me again I'll reverse direction go lvl avoid the ho. Rinse and repeat till his zoom is gone. Then it's fight on.
If he makes an immediate reversal I'll reverse in such a way to get my speed in that Mid speed range. If I am way to fast Imel with a bit of off angle, chandel, any type of climbing reversal.
To slow split s, low yoyo that type of thing.
The thing to remember is that mid range speed is where the Mk IX likes it best.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Vad
Thank you but I would like to know what would you do in that exact situation. Or, if you are not Spit expert which Spit actions would make you worry in that situation?
Spiral Climb. With the spiral climb the Spitfire is able to counter my better vertical performance with their better climb rate. Against the Spitfire Mk IX, this is something that I really don't like to see when I'm in a P-38. If the Spitfire Mk IX starts a spiral climb on me, he's forcing me to bleed off E just to get my nose in tight enough for a shot. The best I can do in that situation is to ride my flaps just above the stall point and try and keep my nose upward into the turn and hope the Spitfire driver gets bored and rolls over into a Split-S but that rarely happens. Most experienced pilots will keep it going sufficient enough to build enough seperation to pounce on me as I pretty much float above stall speed, totally exposed and ready for my approaching doom.
Now, like Zoom Climbs, the Spiral Climb is useless and will kill you if the other guy has more Energy and is able to keep up. So don't think this is the 100% sure way of defending or fighting a P-38 because it's not but it is a viable tactic to use and will give you a reasonably good chance at coming out of it alive. But with all things in life, YMMV.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Bronk
When in a Mk IX And I merge with a co alt But unknown speed 38...
I have learned it is best not to. That is to say I wait to see what he does 1st.
If he does the usual 3000000 zoom climb, I'll shallow climb away at around 250-270 mph. Once he starts his boom at me again I'll reverse direction go lvl avoid the ho. Rinse and repeat till his zoom is gone. Then it's fight on.
If he makes an immediate reversal I'll reverse in such a way to get my speed in that Mid speed range. If I am way to fast Imel with a bit of off angle, chandel, any type of climbing reversal.
To slow split s, low yoyo that type of thing.
The thing to remember is that mid range speed is where the Mk IX likes it best.
Bronk
Thank you, it is exactly what I want to know.
So, general advice is to give up initiative and in the most cases top position and E. You need to slow down to get into mid speeds but you can't zoom so you will lose relative E at the beginning of the fight.
It sounds reasonable but unusual, I have to get accustomed to this idea.
Main problem here is that 99% of MA population are not akaks, and old good lead turn with zoom works great against any planes. In 1% of fights when I understand that it was mistake it's too late ...
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Spiral Climb. With the spiral climb the Spitfire is able to counter my better vertical performance with their better climb rate.
ack-ack
It is the second step I believe. On the first seconds of the fight immediately after merge you would out zoom any spiral climb and attack from the top.
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Originally posted by Vad
Thank you, it is exactly what I want to know.
So, general advice is to give up initiative and in the most cases top position and E. You need to slow down to get into mid speeds but you can't zoom so you will lose relative E at the beginning of the fight.
It sounds reasonable but unusual, I have to get accustomed to this idea.
Main problem here is that 99% of MA population are not akaks, and old good lead turn with zoom works great against any planes. In 1% of fights when I understand that it was mistake it's too late ...
And there is the crux of the problem. People get use to pork auger dweeblets flying the 38 and think "mmmmmmmmmmmm fresh meat" then it's murdr or akak and they cry foul.
While what I suggested wont always get you the win against a good 38 stick. With practice you should last longer and make it a fight.
But if its just the pork auger dweeb in it you'll take him down anyway, just in a few more turns.
All I can say is that is what I do when I fly the Mk IX . I'm a bit out of practice with it since I started flying the 38 though.
Bronk
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Thank you guys.
Actually I fly Spits rarely and only in middle war arena, I have another favorite bird in LW but you gave me a lot of info to think about. P38 has always been my nightmare.
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Originally posted by blackdog68
[....]What started last night is the 'BS' I uttered about the 3 formation laser guns on bombers. The exact same thing complained about on here ad nauseum. I'm sorry, the 3 formation laser gun is NOT historically accurate.[...]
You were just mad because you lost a 262...
Just a suggestion, turn off 200 for a while. I rarely have 200 on because it's most of the time used to belittle someone. I even find my self whining when I am sent back to the tower by someone better than me (happened last night).
I had already pinged you and you were smoking, I guess the 3 pings I got at 800yds was enough to finish the job.
You had a great attack plan on the bombers, until you pulled up under the formation and just sat there. Had you continued as you were, you would have wasted the formation for sure.
As I did last night
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I'd just pwn quack-quack!#!@#~
Plain and simple!
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Originally posted by Scca
You were just mad because you lost a 262...
Actually, I could care less about a 262, I can get more, and they were real cheap when I got that one. I just fly them for kicks as I don't fly any other perked plane.
As far as damage, I had some inconsequential damage (1 cannon, 1 flap) prior to zooming under you to get in front and re-pass from the front at 800-1000 at 350mph. But your 800+ ping ripped off both elevators.
Granted, it was a very good shot from that distance and at that speed so for that, .s SCCA.
Those lazer bomber formations are not your fault. To be historically accurate, though, huge formations of bombers were very ineffective even when outnumbering fighters at more than 3-1. My grandfather, were he alive, would attest to that being a belly gunner and toggelier in a B-17.
SCCA, Sports Car Club of America?
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Originally posted by blackdog68
Actually, I could care less about a 262, I can get more, and they were real cheap when I got that one. I just fly them for kicks as I don't fly any other perked plane.
As far as damage, I had some inconsequential damage (1 cannon, 1 flap) prior to zooming under you to get in front and re-pass from the front at 800-1000 at 350mph. But your 800+ ping ripped off both elevators.
Granted, it was a very good shot from that distance and at that speed so for that, .s SCCA.
Those lazer bomber formations are not your fault. To be historically accurate, though, huge formations of bombers were very ineffective even when outnumbering fighters at more than 3-1. My grandfather, were he alive, would attest to that being a belly gunner and toggelier in a B-17.
Thanks, I would consider it lucky. I was jumping all over the plan trying to keep you in the sweet spot.
Cool, I guess it's that you made it personal by calling out my gameid on 200 that chapped my...well you know...
SCCA, Sports Car Club of America?
Yup, Safety Crew
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Originally posted by SuperDud
I'd just pwn quack-quack!#!@#~
Plain and simple!
that's because you start talking to me on vox and with your silken smooth voice, it just puts me in a trance and I'm an easy kill at that point.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by blackdog68
formations of bombers were very ineffective even when outnumbering fighters at more than 3-1. My grandfather, were he alive, would attest to that being a belly gunner and toggelier in a B-17.
To be historically accurate bombers would have no chance at all of surviving. A Hurricane 1 could kill one bomber with historically accurate gunning. No point at all in that, is there? I'd rather have to worry if I'm diving in on the 9 guy, who uses heat seeking .50s in his aircraft. Having three is even more fun; there's some serious risk involved in attacking a formation. If I can't hit the cockpit I aim for wing tips.
My dad was a nose gunner on 24s. Ball turret (belly gun) was his alternate position.
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Originally posted by Vad
Thank you, it is exactly what I want to know.
So, general advice is to give up initiative and in the most cases top position and E. You need to slow down to get into mid speeds but you can't zoom so you will lose relative E at the beginning of the fight.
It sounds reasonable but unusual, I have to get accustomed to this idea.
Main problem here is that 99% of MA population are not akaks, and old good lead turn with zoom works great against any planes. In 1% of fights when I understand that it was mistake it's too late ...
Vad, about all you will see me in are Spit9's. From the fight Ack described it's hard to say how I would have handled it. I know I wouldn't have been focused on a HO pass against a 38 from the start. Before we ever merged I would have already started lead turning and chopping throttle. With some one like Ack flying the 38 you have to be full on agressive and keep the pressure on. Going in to the verticle with him, even in a zoom climb, is death. I would have possibly tried getting him in to a rolling scissors. But like some one stated earlier, with out film it's all speculation.
Lambo
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if your in a spit with co e on the 38, try and get more e. He will go vert after merge and repeat that move till your roped or he has gotten around on you...you can try for the head on after merge but his nose mounted cannon gonna rip ya a new one...
keep the fight between 250 and 300 id say... and try to time his virt move to catch him at the beginning of it. You better be a good shot..aim for canopy or the elevator..your only gettin one shot
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Lambo, you would start flat lead turning? Looks like there is no sense to try vertical turn, and flat turn put you in defence from the beginning. So, you agree with others that Spit v P38 fight should be defensive for Spit from the beginning, don't you? And how can I be agressive if I have abandoned my Co-e position on the first second of the fight, and he is above me now +1000?
Jaxxo, do you agree with that? You suggest to let him go vert and get more alt ?
It sounds strange... It means that P38 totally controls the fight from the beginning, can disengage at any moment , and you can do nothing with that.
I don't argue with you, I have zero experience in P38 and very little in Spit but... but it is against everything I've heard before.
Anyway, thank you, I will experiment with this.
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The way i see it is that the spit 9 and P38J are a pretty good match up. On paper, the sustained turn advantage (no flaps) goes to the spit, the climb rate goes to the spit. The speed, zoom climb, slow-speed stability goes to the 38.
But mechanical advantages count for a suprisingly small amount of the factors which determine victory or defeat. Pilot skill by far and away counts the greatest. With closely matched a/c, as in this case, the pilot will determine the outcome 9 times out of 10.
There is no golden rule, no easy set-move which will cause you to win without fail. Each engagement is a complex sequence 3-D spatial permutations with near infinite possibilities. Saying that you should zoom and commence spiral climb at time X in the fight will win it for you is rubbish. Its your ability to read the situation and E, anticipate moves in advance and possible counters and plan to counter the counters etc, how you adapt in an instant, ability to surprise, your mastery of control of your a/c, the ability to track the enemy, your knowledge of a/c abilities at all altitudes and what that means vs theirs, learning your optimum speed for maneuvering; mastering these (or even getting good at them) are more important than focusing on a killer move.
In short, if you come up against a much better pilot, it almost doesnt matter what you or they are flying (unless you can 'tactically reposition'), the outcome is all but pre-determined. The best advice is to take losses in your stride, and learn from them by FILMING ALL YOUR ENGAGEMENTS and study them. Learn from both your victories and losses. Study them both. Work out what happened and why, and how you can employ or avoid those moves in the future. Seriously thats good advice, but you need to be diligent.
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Thank you, Spatula :)
I'm here since 2004, and I'm flying a lot. Of course, I know that it is pilot not plane gives 99% of success. And my hard disk is full of .ahf files.
What was surprised me in this thread is advice to give up your initial Co-E state for the purpose to equalize it later on the low, more favorable speeds. It's new concept for me.
May be it's just me but I always try to dominate the fight, and I feel very uncomfortable being low and relatively slow.
But once again, I don't argue, I've just never tried this. I will.
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Originally posted by Vad
What was surprised me in this thread is advice to give up your initial Co-E state for the purpose to equalize it later on the low, more favorable speeds. It's new concept for me.
I often enjoy fighting from the disadvantage more than fighting from the advantage. Sometimes i find it easier to capitalise on my enemies mistakes that they make themselves, than trying to attack from above. Although i would always prefer the later.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
that's because you start talking to me on vox and with your silken smooth voice, it just puts me in a trance and I'm an easy kill at that point.
ack-ack
You're a sexy beast!!!!
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Oh, yer, to avoid AHF overload, regularly clear out your films folder and save only the ones which you think could be useful and study those, then delete them if you dont need them anymore. I sort mine out when i log off each time. Saves spending hours trolling through hundreds/thousands of old film files.
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Originally posted by Vad
Thank you, Spatula :)
I'm here since 2004, and I'm flying a lot. Of course, I know that it is pilot not plane gives 99% of success. And my hard disk is full of .ahf files.
What was surprised me in this thread is advice to give up your initial Co-E state for the purpose to equalize it later on the low, more favorable speeds. It's new concept for me.
May be it's just me but I always try to dominate the fight, and I feel very uncomfortable being low and relatively slow.
But once again, I don't argue, I've just never tried this. I will.
Vad, I hear what you're saying. I get the same way.
Some of that discomfort makes perfect sense....because to succeed with the low and slow approach takes EXCELLENT gunnery. You will get brief shot windows, and you have to both quickly recognize them, AND be able to convert them into kills very, very quickly.
My gunnery, though improving, can't rise to that challenge.
I really believe there's also an element of personality in flight style. Some guys are very aggressive, and naturally go for the jugular in every sport they take up. They're naturals at turnfighting. On the other hand, when I play I tend to go for positioning and setups....more of a pass it around till you get the easy layup, and less of a thundering charge for the dunk.
So in AH, I naturally go into fights preferring to apply good tactics, trying to make my maneuvers as clean as possible, and hope that I do them well enough to gradually gain the advantage. I pounce mostly when exploiting my opponent's mistakes. It's a conservative style, and I won't force many mistakes by aggressiveness; but it fits me.
The point is this: if you are a natural at exploiting energy advantages, then there's no reason to force yourself into turn fighter mode. Choose a plane that fits your style...and expand your styles as you want to.
If you do sacrifice a lot of E for an angle, though, be sure you convert your shot opportunity. You may not get a second one!
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you know Sim you really should have been a teacher. I just saw myself in yet ANOTHER post of yours
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Originally posted by Vad
Lambo, you would start flat lead turning? Looks like there is no sense to try vertical turn, and flat turn put you in defence from the beginning. So, you agree with others that Spit v P38 fight should be defensive for Spit from the beginning, don't you? And how can I be agressive if I have abandoned my Co-e position on the first second of the fight, and he is above me now +1000?
Jaxxo, do you agree with that? You suggest to let him go vert and get more alt ?
It sounds strange... It means that P38 totally controls the fight from the beginning, can disengage at any moment , and you can do nothing with that.
I don't argue with you, I have zero experience in P38 and very little in Spit but... but it is against everything I've heard before.
Anyway, thank you, I will experiment with this.
I can guarrantee you that once I go into a flat turn in my spit9, I'm not "on the defensive". If you consider turn fighting in a spit9 as "defensive", then you've already lost the fight due to your attitude.
The spit does turn fighting very well, better than most planes on AHII.
And if you think that the other craft has control of the fight when you start turning your spit, then you've still given up the fight.
If YOU can get a P-38 to go into a flat or up-spiraling turn fight, then YOU control the fight and YOU used your plane's strengths to your advantage, agressively. It's an offense of attrition. Whittle away his energy, and he's all yours.
BTW, try to get the fight as low to the ground as possible. You don't want your newly aquired toy to suddenly dive and extend on you. Low to the ground, you'll be able to accelerate faster than the 38, but only if he doesn't try to dive away.
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A good p-38 jock is dangerous....never follow it to a stall #1.... a good p-38 jock, isnt a easy target by any strech, but a lousy p-38 pilot, is a joy to shoot down,....:aok Free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it, .....nothing.
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Originally posted by TexInVa
I can guarrantee you that once I go into a flat turn in my spit9, I'm not "on the defensive". If you consider turn fighting in a spit9 as "defensive", then you've already lost the fight due to your attitude.
The spit does turn fighting very well, better than most planes on AHII.
And if you think that the other craft has control of the fight when you start turning your spit, then you've still given up the fight.
If YOU can get a P-38 to go into a flat or up-spiraling turn fight, then YOU control the fight and YOU used your plane's strengths to your advantage, agressively. It's an offense of attrition. Whittle away his energy, and he's all yours.
BTW, try to get the fight as low to the ground as possible. You don't want your newly aquired toy to suddenly dive and extend on you. Low to the ground, you'll be able to accelerate faster than the 38, but only if he doesn't try to dive away.
You flat turn a good 38 stick co alt, co speed on the initial merge ..... He is going to zooom up out of reach and dance on your head.
A flat turn just burns E, you get neither alt or speed.
You emphasized the wrong word in your second paragraph. The key word is IF, and no good 38 stick is going to be suckered by an initial flat turn.
I'm no where near Murdr's, AckAck's, league and I know I wouldn't.
While I'll agree on the premise of getting the fight low. However how you do that is the trick.
Ohh and BTW the Mk IX only out accelerates the J/L models to 150 mph. From that point on the J/L out accelerate it. So the only time the Mk IX out accels those 2 models is from a dead stop.
You can check that here----. http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
Like I said (and stand by)in my previous post. Do not commit to the fight until it falls in your best fight/flight envelope.
Bronk
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If I've got the p-38 low and slow to the ground, no stats will allow him to run away.
And you're right. If I go into a flat turn and the 38 climbs, I'm usually only making (a max of) a 90° turn. Once I see him climb, I leave. And yes, it's annoying to fight that way, but either the 38 is going to loose momentum, leave the fight altogether, or I'll actually get him into a turn fight.
My point is, you've (or Vad did) lost the fight as soon as you think that the spit in a flat turn is defensive fighting. It's not. My emphisis stands "as is".
Now, instead of allowing this to turn into a pursefight, why don't we try to help Vad fight a 38 in his spit? I don't know about you, but I can't help him with every single pilot in a 38, or tell him every single move to make against every move made by the 38. With that, I'll continue to post in "generalizations" until he can get a spit up and figure it out. A kind of epiphany piloting will have to occure, as does with just about every other pilot out there, once BCM is figured out.
It does help when 38 pilots, like ack-ack, come in and tell what he sees as weaknesses in his flying a 38, like he did earlier about turn fighting. I'm sure Vad said "ahhhhhhh!" when he read that. Unfortunatly, Vad also saw getting into a turn fight as a "bad" thing. That need to be cleared up, or it WILL be a bad thing.
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Originally posted by TexInVa
My point is, you've (or Vad did) lost the fight as soon as you think that the spit in a flat turn is defensive fighting. It's not. My emphisis stands "as is".
.
Lets see last tour I flew spits seriously was January and was starting my 38 transition. Lets do a little numbers research.
Jan Tour
Flacco
P-38G 0 0 P-38G 0 0
P-38J 0 0 P-38J 2 0
P-38L 0 3 P-38L 2 1
Spitfire Mk IX 76 5 Spitfire Mk IX 5 67
Bronk
P-38G 7 1 P-38G 0 1
P-38J 15 2 P-38J 3 5
P-38L 12 12 P-38L 3 1
Spitfire Mk IX 37 9 Spitfire Mk IX 4 7
Take from this what you will. The point I'm making what I do works, not all the time but enough for me to keep improving on it.
Vad if your still checking in on this thread , turning does work. Problem is when to start.
Bronk
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Hey, guys, thank you and relax :).
TexInVa, of course I didn't ask about every single move and every pilot in AH.
I know Spits turning abilities, and have some knowledge about its optimal speed range.
I was asking only about first seconds of the fight right after merge. And only if you co-energy. Just first move in Spit against P38.
I can take care of the rest by myself:
P-38G 0 6 P-38G 0 0
P-38J 0 5 P-38J 3 0
P-38L 0 12 P-38L 3 0
Spitfire Mk IX 109 21 Spitfire Mk IX 9 15
Thank you again for your help and advices.
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Blackdog68, you got owned by a better pilot. Trying to call him out for 'cheating' is not only lame, it makes you look like a jealous idiot. Akak is a really good stick and can take on most anyone that is willing to fight... Plus the 38 is an amazing plane. I'll be the first to admit I haven't gotten anywhere near mastering it and probably never will, but a good 38 jock can make it fly like a Stradivarius plays.
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LOL@Bronk :rofl
Just had to get the purse out, didn't you?
Vad, I don't come straight in to anyone anymore, not with all of the HO'ing that's been happening lately, so my merge with just about anyone usually starts with a slow, lazy, constricting circle. If the 38 (or any other faster plane) just keeps on moving, I don't usually follow. I'm usually looking for anything that decides to turn hard towards me. A hard turning plane means a slowing plane.
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Originally posted by scottydawg
Blackdog68, you got owned by a better pilot. Trying to call him out for 'cheating' is not only lame, it makes you look like a jealous idiot. Akak is a really good stick and can take on most anyone that is willing to fight... Plus the 38 is an amazing plane. I'll be the first to admit I haven't gotten anywhere near mastering it and probably never will, but a good 38 jock can make it fly like a Stradivarius plays.
Ummm, I stated he warped (and apparently our 2 different views of the first part of the fight still lend some support to that analysis...). It was only later, after a series of ch:200 chats days/week+ later, that I let go with the C word. And I don't mind getting "owned" at times, most of the time when it happens I know why. Perhaps you can search for all my other posts about being shot down? Oh yeah, you won't find any.
Doesn't matter....I think he and I are all good on it now.
However I will say this, and its more in the philosophical realm than directly related to this incident. I grew up playing playground basketball, where trash talking is a way of life. Some people, in here as well as real life, apparently are WAY too sensitive for that. Put another way, you take your trash talk to a country club tennis match, everyone looks down at you. You take your sensitivity to a playground pickup basketball game, everyone laughs at you. In poker, which I also play, at 1 time professionally, trash talk is used as it is in b-ball, to get your opponent off his game. And you know what, everyone knows it for what it is, even if you've gotten someone's goat or been gotten. No blood, no foul, and we buy each other gatorades or beers after :)
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Originally posted by Vad
Thank you, Spatula :)
I'm here since 2004, and I'm flying a lot. Of course, I know that it is pilot not plane gives 99% of success. And my hard disk is full of .ahf files.
What was surprised me in this thread is advice to give up your initial Co-E state for the purpose to equalize it later on the low, more favorable speeds. It's new concept for me.
May be it's just me but I always try to dominate the fight, and I feel very uncomfortable being low and relatively slow.
But once again, I don't argue, I've just never tried this. I will.
To me the key is to not be the "same as the other guy". I find being negative E is "normally" an advantage.....but the key is to be negative E when the other guy thinks your not {or having less E then expected}....
Here we see the opposite....the 38 driver simply is flying a "different" E merge...the moment you think....This one is going to be easy....your right. The only thing in question is easy for who? Murder did the same thing to me (accept I was in a F6F doing 400)....simple lesson learned...dont get "cute" with a 38....ever. I fight 38's all the time and do reasonably well....but the bird is very capable....when flown to its strengths.
What seperates a 38 driver from the rest of us is the fact that 38 drivers dont survive many mistakes in a fight. So the guys who stick with it get better and better at managing a fight....they make fewer mistakes. They also capitalize on yours more often. Jugs and 38's....always assume the "other guy" is a stud. The "life" you save may very well be your own:)
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Far too many claims of "we met head-on and he turns 180 and then catches me up" claims are made. Not one of them has ever came with a film which shows anything out of the ordinary.
Well I am glad others have noticed it too because I wasn't going to mention it. This is why some RL combat manuevers do not work in AH. That no one has been able to send in a AHfilm is unbelievable. Perhaps it is unrecognized. In the limited time that I have been a subscriber I have seen this sustained energy fluk often enough to anticipate it.
In AH you have the benifit of knowing what plane is manuevering to an attack position. In AH you also have the benefit of piloting and being familiar with all the planes. So a defending pilot knows the basic flight physic parameters of the attackers plane and of course reasons out a series of manuevers to defeat the attackers best possible manuevers. It's when the attacker arrives at waypoints in their program where they should not have the inertia to attain that the defender goes wide eyed. It has nothing to do with warping or lag.
Many, many, many, many times I have seen an attacker come out of a series of bank turns from below me, enter into a almost vertical climb and end in an Immelman to promptly arrive at D400 on my 6 at a speed to match my own, even though I have maintained straight level flight. There are other examples but these situations make clear there is a conservation of inertia at work in AH renders RL manuevers unreliable.
The point is, when you know it is there you will have to compensate for this effect and just accept that the attaker will be there, at that point if allowed to manuever you in. This is not RL afterall.
RASTER
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Originally posted by RASTER
Well I am glad others have noticed it too because I wasn't going to mention it. This is why some RL combat manuevers do not work in AH. That no one has been able to send in a AHfilm is unbelievable. Perhaps it is unrecognized. In the limited time that I have been a subscriber I have seen this sustained energy fluk often enough to anticipate it.
In AH you have the benifit of knowing what plane is manuevering to an attack position. In AH you also have the benefit of piloting and being familiar with all the planes. So a defending pilot knows the basic flight physic parameters of the attackers plane and of course reasons out a series of manuevers to defeat the attackers best possible manuevers. It's when the attacker arrives at waypoints in their program where they should not have the inertia to attain that the defender goes wide eyed. It has nothing to do with warping or lag.
Many, many, many, many times I have seen an attacker come out of a series of bank turns from below me, enter into a almost vertical climb and end in an Immelman to promptly arrive at D400 on my 6 at a speed to match my own, even though I have maintained straight level flight. There are other examples but these situations make clear there is a conservation of inertia at work in AH renders RL manuevers unreliable.
The point is, when you know it is there you will have to compensate for this effect and just accept that the attaker will be there, at that point if allowed to manuever you in. This is not RL afterall.
RASTER
Actually basic physics, all you need is E=MC2. Thats why an A-20 will outzoom any fighter in the game.....
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Originally posted by humble
Actually basic physics, all you need is E=MC2. Thats why an A-20 will outzoom any fighter in the game.....
And Lancs will outzoom A20 :)
According to this formula any fighter has enough E to outzoom out of the galaxy.
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Originally posted by RASTER
Well I am glad others have noticed it too because I wasn't going to mention it. This is why some RL combat manuevers do not work in AH. That no one has been able to send in a AHfilm is unbelievable. Perhaps it is unrecognized. In the limited time that I have been a subscriber I have seen this sustained energy fluk often enough to anticipate it.
In AH you have the benifit of knowing what plane is manuevering to an attack position. In AH you also have the benefit of piloting and being familiar with all the planes. So a defending pilot knows the basic flight physic parameters of the attackers plane and of course reasons out a series of manuevers to defeat the attackers best possible manuevers. It's when the attacker arrives at waypoints in their program where they should not have the inertia to attain that the defender goes wide eyed. It has nothing to do with warping or lag.
Many, many, many, many times I have seen an attacker come out of a series of bank turns from below me, enter into a almost vertical climb and end in an Immelman to promptly arrive at D400 on my 6 at a speed to match my own, even though I have maintained straight level flight. There are other examples but these situations make clear there is a conservation of inertia at work in AH renders RL manuevers unreliable.
The point is, when you know it is there you will have to compensate for this effect and just accept that the attaker will be there, at that point if allowed to manuever you in. This is not RL afterall.
RASTER
In 99% of the cases, the "we met head-on and he turns 180 and then catches me up" can be attributed to the one confused as to how he died under estimating the relative energy state of other plane and of ACM. you can also add not having a full understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the plane he is fighting or even of that of his own plane.
My '180 turn' as was originally described was a result of using a low yo-yo as a lead turn on the merge which was a real life merge tactic and it works quite well in AH. In fact, despite what you think, ACM maneuvers translate very well in AH to the point that some ACM maneuvers that wouldn't work and have become essentially aerobatic maneuvers in real life work very well in AH.
ack-ack
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Estimating the relative energy state of the opponent is not easy and mistakes can be made even if you have the time and situational awareness to track the opponent to establish their inertial state.
The "outzoom" concept is not entirely clear to me. It would seem far more complicated.
The Yo-Yo's really work well in Jets but in prop's every time you move the controls you loose inertia. Changes in AOA and removing sideslip, should scrub off a significant percentage of the air speed.
The Yo-Yo works well if the defender is turning or piloting erratically but if the defender has a matched plane and is sustaining maximum velocity with his rudder trimmed, there is no way on earth the attacker will close the distance if he does any kind of manuever including a Yo-Yo.
Certainly acceleration will close the gap but the pilot should be aware that lighter or more powerful aircraft will recover from inertial loss in a shorter time. The faster the plane the greater the loss when moving the control surfaces. If the pilot applies most of the attitude changes at low speeds before preceeding into a dive, then there is a higher conservation of inertia compared to the pilot who banks hard at the bottom of a dive.
However, in AH much of this awareness is pointless as there are pilots who can defeat this logic and if the defender is not aware and prepared for it, then the attacker will have his helmet.
At sustained maximum velocity there is no manuever which does not loose inertia in RL.
RASTER
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The "zoom climb" is a very real thing. If you have two planes traveling at the same speed the heavier plane has more stored energy. Thats simple physics. So if a heavier plane is doing 355 and a lighter one is doing 360. The pilot of the lighter plane pulls up thinking he's got seperation and can rope....then watches as the heavier slower plane climbs up his tail pipe. The reason is that energy is not entirely dependant on relative speeds. It is possible for the slower plane to have equal or greater energy available.
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Originally posted by humble
The "zoom climb" is a very real thing. If you have two planes traveling at the same speed the heavier plane has more stored energy. Thats simple physics. So if a heavier plane is doing 355 and a lighter one is doing 360. The pilot of the lighter plane pulls up thinking he's got seperation and can rope....then watches as the heavier slower plane climbs up his tail pipe. The reason is that energy is not entirely dependant on relative speeds. It is possible for the slower plane to have equal or greater energy available.
Unfortunately,Humble, it's not basic physics. :)
Energy is the sum of potential and kinetic energies, and both of them depends on mass.
KE = mv^2/2 - kinetic
PE=mgh - potential.
So, when you zoom kinetic energy transforms to potential, and height of thge zoom will be
mv^2/2 = mgh, =>
h = v^2/(2g).
As you can see there is no mass in this formula. Alt of zoom depends only on initial speed.
Of course, you are right with you final conclusion, massive fighter tends to zoom higher, but not because of simple physics. In real life you have to add drag into equation which doesn't depend on mass. But it's very complcated, and there is no way to model thsi process correctly in sims.
I don't know how accurate HTC modelled this in AH but I know for sure that they couldn't do that absolutely correct, it's just impossible. Too many different factors are involved.
edit due typo
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your wrong........{based on my understanding of basic physics}
You have 2 planes not one. So mass effects total energy. The slower heavier plane might have more total energy then the lighter faster one. If you have only a single incident then mass is constant (excluding fuel burn). If you have two planes then you need to compute total energy for both to calculate "zoom"....and as you show mass is an integral part of the calculation to determine total energy. So you would need to calculate "total energy" seperately for both planes..."zoom" is not constant across all planes its a combination of speed and mass....lighter planes have less "zoom" at any given speed then heavier ones....
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Originally posted by humble
your wrong........{based on my understanding of basic physics}
You have 2 planes not one. So mass effects total energy. The slower heavier plane might have more total energy then the lighter faster one. If you have only a single incident then mass is constant (excluding fuel burn). If you have two planes then you need to compute total energy for both to calculate "zoom"....and as you show mass is an integral part of the calculation to determine total energy. So you would need to calculate "total energy" seperately for both planes..."zoom" is not constant across all planes its a combination of speed and mass....lighter planes have less "zoom" at any given speed then heavier ones....
I'm right but it's obviously stalemate situation.
You lack knowledge of elementary physics, I don't have enough knowledge of English language to prove that. :)
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Is it the "zoom climb" being referred to?
The complication is not only in the mass but in many forces such as in the pull down of gravity which Galileo and Newton demonstrated acts the same regardless of mass and the lighter aircraft has the action of the prop to help maintain its climb inertia and then there is prop pitch, the effect of rapid change in air density and all sort of little scientific snots that always tend to be more important than earlier thought. The centrifugal force on a small mass as compared to a large mass as it changes its attitude into a vertical climb also must greatly enlarge the radius where much of the energy is lost in the transition to vertical.
AH is a fun simulation but there are flight manuevers which do not translate well from RL. I would suggest the orginal poster study AH physics and forget trying to rationalize how these diverge from RL. There would be something to complain about if these attributes that he noticed weren't omni present.
RASTER
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Originally posted by Vad
I'm right but it's obviously stalemate situation.
You lack knowledge of elementary physics, I don't have enough knowledge of English language to prove that. :)
Not a stalemate at all, if your right your right. But an a20 going 400 mph has roughly 4 times the energy of a zeke. Now if your saying both would zoom to exactly the same height just plug the numbers in for me. My understanding is the difference between a sustained climb and a "zoom" climb is based on the retention of inertia due to this stored energy. Basically why heavier planes like the P-47 have such good "zoom climb" even though they have poor sustained climb rates. The plane expends more energy per foot of climb and like a battery this energy is "stored". A planes "zoom climb" has always been a part of its combat capabilities....if all planes "zoomed" the same it would be a constant and not a variable so my natural tendency is to disagree with you on this.
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Originally posted by RASTER
Is it the "zoom climb" being referred to?
The complication is not only in the mass but in many forces such as in the pull down of gravity which Galileo and Newton demonstrated acts the same regardless of mass and the lighter aircraft has the action of the prop to help maintain its climb inertia and then there is prop pitch, the effect of rapid change in air density and all sort of little scientific snots that always tend to be more important than earlier thought. The centrifugal force on a small mass as compared to a large mass as it changes its attitude into a vertical climb also must greatly enlarge the radius where much of the energy is lost in the transition to vertical.
AH is a fun simulation but there are flight manuevers which do not translate well from RL. I would suggest the orginal poster study AH physics and forget trying to rationalize how these diverge from RL. There would be something to complain about if these attributes that he noticed weren't omni present.
RASTER
Both planes have props....sustained and zoom climb are different. As a general rule heavier planes "zoom" better.
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Yes, both planes have props. However, explained another way, it is my belief that the lighter plane might benefit more from the constant thrust applied during the climb than the A20 which takes such a long time to gain inertia.
Also the amount of inertia lost in translating a small plane from the horizantal to the vertical would be less than a larger plane in the same radius.
RASTER
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Originally posted by Vad
Of course, you are right with you final conclusion, massive fighter tends to zoom higher, but not because of simple physics. In real life you have to add drag into equation which doesn't depend on mass. But it's very complcated, and there is no way to model thsi process correctly in sims.
One way to think of this, just using simple physics, is to consider which of the two zooming aircraft will lose speed more quickly, that is, which will have the greatest deceleration. To do that you can use Newton's second law, which is the starting point for the equations of motion for aircraft flight models. This is just written as f = ma and we read that as force equals mass times acceleration. So if you want to figure out which aircraft will slow down more quickly if they both start at the same speed then Newton's law applied to the aircraft's body axis could be written like this:
T - d - m x g x Sin(theta) = m a
where T = prop thrust, d = total drag, and theta = angle of climb.
If you divide both sides by the mass you get:
T/m - d/m - g Sin(theta) = a
Now assume you zoom climb two similar aircraft at the same angle, but one has full internal fuel and the other is almost empty so that the only difference is their mass. Then for comparison purposes the equation can be reduced to:
T/m - d/m = a
From this it is easy to see that the aircraft with greater mass will decelerate more slowly. So, the amount of deceleration will always depend on the mass of the aircraft.
I don't know how accurate HTC modelled this in AH but I know for sure that they couldn't do that absolutely correct, it's just impossible. Too many different factors are involved.
I'm sure they model it very accurately. In any flight model the solution of the equations of motion are being done numerically, and the accuracy depends on which numerical method is being used and the frequency, and you can get an acceptable degree of fidelity at 15hz and most modern flight models run a lot faster with a high degree of precision. The significant factors are all being accounted for, if they weren't it would be fairly easy to detect the issues during flight tests.
Hope that helps.
Badboy
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Are you two bored?
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Badboy, I have PhD in engineering :)
Don't tell me that, explain that Humble. I was programming and using Runge-Kutt methods 20 years ago.
BTW, drag in your formula ( and even T but it's the next level of accuracy)depends on V^2, where V- speed. So, you need to integrate the full system of equtions.
Ok, I've already written that final Humble's conclusion is correct - more massive plane will zoom climb better. My remark was only about the way how he made that conclusion. It's not simply mc^2, and even not mv^2/2
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Are you two bored?
At work? Of course!
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Originally posted by Vad
Badboy, I have PhD in engineering :)
Don't tell me that, explain that Humble. I was programming and using Runge-Kutt methods 20 years ago.
BTW, drag in your formula ( and even T but it's the next level of accuracy)depends on V^2, where V- speed. So, you need to integrate the full system of equtions.
Ok, I've already written that final Humble's conclusion is correct - more massive plane will zoom climb better. My remark was only about the way how he made that conclusion. It's not simply mc^2, and even not mv^2/2
Hmmm.....
mass effects total energy
mass is an integral part of the calculation to determine total energy
My understanding is the difference between a sustained climb and a "zoom" climb is based on the retention of inertia due to this stored energy
If you have two planes traveling at the same speed the heavier plane has more stored energy
Cant see where I was/am wrong. I dont recall (beyond E=MC2) using any formula. Obviously the theory of relativity is not the correct formula to actually calculate "zoom"....however its fundemental principle that no system "loses" energy. Accordingly under the theory of relativity a plane is "storing" energy as it climbs....the heavier plane needs to expend more energy to reach the same alt and/or speed and accordingly has more "total energy" then the lighter plane at equal speed/alt.
now this is an observable event and a specific formula could be written to explain/perdict this observed event .... or maybe the plane could fall out of the sky and pop a guy on the head.
This is basic high school physics....no PHD required. Applied mathematics is just that. I dont see the problem in taking a fundemental equation and applying it to explain a readily observable event. I was/am "right" because I understand the fundemental laws of energy.
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Ok, humble,
1) We have 2 plains, the first with mass m1=10, the second with mass m2=100. The second is 10 times more heavy than the first.
2) Both of them moving with speed V=10.
3) Energy of the first is m*V^2/2, or 10*10^2/2=500
Energy of the second is 100*10^2/2=5000.
Yes, you are correct, the energy of the heavy plane is 10 times more than the first.
4) Both of them zoom climb, and their kinetic energy transforms to potential energy. Potential energy equal
m*g*h (mass by gravity acceleration by height)
5) the first plane can use all its energy to climb up to
m1*g*h = m1*v^2/2
let take g=10, it doesn't matter, its the same in both calculations.
10*10*h = 10*10^2/2 = 500
It means that using its energy (inertia) it can climb up to
h = 500/(10*10) = 5
The first plane will zoom climb up to 5.
6) The second plane will climb:
m2*g*h = m2*v^2/2
100*10*h = 100* 10^2/2= 5000
what gives us
h = 5000/(100*10) =5
The same 5.
Ok, just tell me what is paragraph you agree with, what is not and why.
And don't forget, in real life it doesn't work like I've described above because of drag. And I told it before.
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Snaphook:
Take a look at Badboy's equations. Decceleration (or acceleration) in a zoom climb is:
T/m - D/m - g*Sin(Theta) = a
4 variables determine the rate of zoom: 1) thrust, 2) drag, 3) angle-of-climb (theta), and 4) mass - not just mass alone.
Assuming the same angle-of-climb, the equation is simplified to:
T/m - D/m = a
If you had two similar planes at the same airspeeds but different weights, it's true the plane with more mass would decelerate slower as Badboy points out.
However thrust and drag can be very different from plane to plane and both also vary with airspeed so between dissimilar aircraft you have to account for theses variables as well to determine which plane would decelerate faster or slower in a zoom.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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I'm not arguing the math at all or downplaying all the variables that come into play. My comment was simply that the heavier plane carries greater momentum and stored energy then the lighter one and within certain parameters will therefor "zoom" better. At no time was my reference to the theory of relativity intended as the mathematically correct formula to calculate zoom. Obviously we're not dealing with a "closed system" but the underlying theory that energy is never "lost" is fundemental to understanding why the heavier plane zooms better. It seems that Rastar and a few others dont understand that the "zoom" they see is in fact correct modeling (in the broader sense).....
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Oh gosh dont run my way humble, those formula are far to simple. Nothings been said about the formula for loss of inertia due to a incorrectly trimmed rudder. See what happens when the pilot corrects for attitude 3 times rather than 2 during his transition to climb. If the pilot touchs the controls, the plane slows down in RL. Mentally imagine for every light touch of the controls that a plane is looses 10knots of speed and a heavy hand goes off the scale. Where does that put the inertia or energy during that gut wrenching transition to climb. That black out uses up a lot of energy.
I am not an expert here but I try to make the attacker use there controls as much as possible. If I can bank turn without using my elevator and make the attacker pull his hard to try and lead for a shot, it is my belief that he has lost sufficient inertia for me to extend away. This may not be true in AH but it is in RL.
RASTER
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Tango and BadBoy, you are wrong too. Your analysis shows that yhe plane with greate mass will zoom climb WORSE.
T/m - D/m - g*sin(theta) = a
When we zoom climb acceleration will be:
a= T/m - D/m - g
T > D in climb , it's obvious. If T
So, positive part of the equation above is (T-D)/m , which gives us less deceleration than g. Clear that this part of equation MORE for the plane with less mass.
For two similar planes with different mass we have the same T and D, let say T=10, D=9. g=10.
m1=10
m2=100;
Acceleartion of the first plane will be
a = (10-9)/10 -10 = -9.9
Acceleration for the second will be
a = (10 - 9)100 -10 = -9.99
Negatiive accelearion (deceleration) of the second plane will be MORE then the first.
Sorry, but your analysis is working only if T < D (thrust less than drag) and only for the period of time till speed drops to the level where D becomes equal to T.
It means that if you have two similar planes with different weight flying in level (T=D), and they try to zoom climb plane with more mass will zoom WORSE. But if you dive before climb to get more speed (in this case D>T) and climb, heavier plane will zoom BETTER for short period of time.
Exactly what Ack-Ack did!
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Originally posted by RASTER
Oh gosh dont run my way humble, those formula are far to simple. Nothings been said about the formula for loss of inertia due to a incorrectly trimmed rudder. See what happens when the pilot corrects for attitude 3 times rather than 2 during his transition to climb. If the pilot touchs the controls, the plane slows down in RL. Mentally imagine for every light touch of the controls that a plane is looses 10knots of speed and a heavy hand goes off the scale. Where does that put the inertia or energy during that gut wrenching transition to climb. That black out uses up a lot of energy.
I am not an expert here but I try to make the attacker use there controls as much as possible. If I can bank turn without using my elevator and make the attacker pull his hard to try and lead for a shot, it is my belief that he has lost sufficient inertia for me to extend away. This may not be true in AH but it is in RL.
RASTER
And exactly how much stick time do you have IRL??
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You know, I think we can all remember how mad we were at the first time we tried to go up with a vet who had alot more E and an advantage...I can see, from that context blackdog, where you're coming from. But you have to realise that fighting in the vertical is what some of these planes/Pilots do very well.
Ok, you stated that the 38 did a level turn to come back to you after the merge. What you did was go into a zoom climb. I'm thinking that you went into your climb soon enough after the merge, that the 38 Did a Chandelle, which would both bleed speed for the turn, yet let him Z-climb with you. The 38's power loading, plus the momentum he has, would have let him catch you.
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Vad:
Check your calcs. The 2nd plane at m=100 should be -.09 not -9.99.
T - D - W * Sin (Theta) = W/g * dV/dt (or m * a)
This is the generalized equation for an airplane in any type of climb.
You can be in a zoom climb where T < D. Typically this occurs when you've pulled up into a climb from out of a dive.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by Vad
It means that if you have two similar planes with different weight flying in level (T=D), and they try to zoom climb plane with more mass will zoom WORSE. But if you dive before climb to get more speed (in this case D>T) and climb, heavier plane will zoom BETTER for short period of time.
Yes, that's true, and don't forget that in Aces High, all of those factors are being updated and re-evaluated at a high frequency, so that all the changes in thrust, drag and weight are being taken into account so that the correct dynamics will always be present in the game at any time to a high degree of fidelity.
Understanding how those factors interact is the secret to exploiting them. It is the reason why the more experienced players are able to use zoom climbs so successfully.
Exactly what Ack-Ack did.
Yep, diving before a zoom climb is an excellent way to hide your true energy state, because inexperienced players often judge your energy by observing your altitude alone. Not only will you have stored energy that your opponent may not have anticipated, but your initial zoom will be better. Normally, those two factors are enough to clinch the fight.
Badboy
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And exactly how much stick time do you have IRL??
Said in another way. Let me ask you a question because I am not really sure with AH. If you are piloting a AH Spitfire at maximum level speed and trim your rudder a degree off centre, does your speed drop. IRL if will. It then reasons that moving the elevator a degree and the rudder a degree regardless of speed attained or lost in pitching the planes axis, that the plane will suffer an even greater loss simply because you touched two control surfaces. If the pilot banks, rudders and pitch's the plane a single degree on all surfaces, then banks pitchs and yaws the plane back to the original attitude, the plane will have lost inertia, and that amount of speed will be significant. IRL. In AH I have not seen this.
One more observation, if the pilots are face to face, level and at maximum velocity at the point of engagement, one pilot dives the other climbs, then the pilot who dived has used up energy of position by reducing his altitude. As there is no such thing as perpetual energy, to regain the original alititude the pilot who dove will need more energy than originally contained to regain that original altitude. Energy will have been lost not only in the changing direction but in all kinds of ways including friction and wind shears. There is only so much available altitude in a zoom climb. If the pilot dives 1000k then he will have to remove 1000k from the other side of the equation. However, if in a jet that whole concept changes where the zoom climb is not a factor of inertia but of thrust.
RASTER
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Originally posted by dtango
Vad:
Check your calcs. The 2nd plane at m=100 should be -.09 not -9.99.
T - D - W * Sin (Theta) = W/g * dV/dt (or m * a)
This is the generalized equation for an airplane in any type of climb.
You can be in a zoom climb where T < D. Typically this occurs when you've pulled up into a climb from out of a dive.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Tango, you don't like mass :)
OK, your eqution:
T - D - W*sin(theta) = (W / g) *v', where v' = dV/dt
The second eqution is m*g = W.
Ok, from the first eqution in zoom climb we have (theta=pi/2, sin(theta) =1):
T - D - W = (W/g) * v' =>
v' = (T - D)*g/W - W/(W/g)
v' = (T-D)*g/W - g
If m= W/g from the second eqution than
v' = (T-D)/m - g
For the second example from my previous post we have:
v' = (10-9)/100 - 10
v' = 1/100 -10
v'=0.01 - 10
v'=-9.99
dV/dt = -9.99
Deceleration = 9.99
9.99>9.9 => massive plane will decelerate faster.
About T
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You're right Vad. I forgot the parans :).
I agree with you regarding all the physics you've mentioned. As Badboy says the smart pilots are the ones who know how to exploit the dynamic relationships such as the one expressed in:
T - D - W*Sin (Theta) = m*a
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Badboy, I know all that what you are saying. Your conclusions and advices are absolutely correct.
I just tried to prove obvious for experience pilot facts using elementary physics.
And according to physics it is not enough to be in heavier fighter to outclimb lighter fighter, you have to dive before climb to get you speed MORE than you can get in level flight (thrust must be less than drag). Otherwise P38 will not outclimb Spit.
It's not obvious for everybody as I can see.
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I can't believe I just read that. Then perpetual motion is possible accordingly?
RASTER::O
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Originally posted by RASTER
I can't believe I just read that. Then perpetual motion is possible accordingly?
RASTER::O
Raster, I see your point. Yes, you are corect, there is no way to get to the same alt if you dive before. But nobody care of absolute alt which can be achived , we are talking about relative positon of two planes. And we are talking about how faster I can decrease distance between two planes.
Yes, if I'm flying alone and level, and want to climb to the maximum possible alt there is no sense to dive before (ok, we are assuming that level flight speed is more than optimal climb speed otherwise it's not true).
But if you need to short distance between two planes in some conditions it's better to dive. Yes, if you dive the maximum alt you can reach will be less but the initial speed of your climb will be better than your opponent, and you have chance to catch him.
Rule of thumb: heaver fighter has advantage in climb if she has speed more than maximum speed in level flight on this alt. Lighter fighter has advantage in climb if speed is less than maximum speed of level flight on this alt.
In that exact fight it happened that both of them dived before merge, both of them had thrust less than drag, and in this situation heavier fighter has advantage in climb.
Perpetual motion has nothing with that.
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i've attempted to move from the spitty to the F4U (with pretty good success) to the P-38.
Since i've ever downloaded this game, i've wanted to fly the P-38. now, i'm far from a good pilot as i don't exactly have the money or time for the MA, whough i wish i did. anywho, i do just great in the nooby 8 player arenas lol and im really starting to get more kills in the 38.
after tonnes of speculation, i've wondered what kind of tactics i should use against those annoying spit 16's and those scissor maniacs, the F4U's. i've managed to out scissor all the ones i've come across so far in my trusy P-38J, but i'm pretty sure i'll encounter better ones. The spitfire is less of a problem, but how does one outscissor a Corsair in a P-38J?
*ackack! teh n00b needs j00!