Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunthr on March 27, 2007, 02:25:36 PM
-
Religious leaders were skeptical, if not outraged, about claims that the “Jesus Family” tomb proves there was no resurrection, or that Jesus had a son, with or without Mary Magdalene.
But I read that the new artifact that was found in the tomb, a bracelet made from the congealed and hardened sap of a rubber tree, found in relation to a radius and ulna, has engraved in the Aramaic "what would I do?" proves for once and for all, it is the tomb of Jesus. has anyone been able to confirm this?
-
:huh
huh?
Give a link or something
-
http://www.itsajoke.com/jesus <--- Story right there.
-
WHAT WOULD CHUCK DO?
(http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/2396/chucknorrisplha3.jpg)
-
Originally posted by cav58d
WHAT WOULD CHUCK DO?
(http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/2396/chucknorrisplha3.jpg)
I'll tell you what he'd do....
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y70/BigTon/sweeptheleg9jv.jpg)
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
http://www.itsajoke.com/jesus <--- Story right there.
So this doesn't this prove Thor Heyerdahl's eqyptian/braziilian trading routes establishing a rubber source? damn.
-
I saw the documentary...It was 600:1 odds that it was the Jesus family crypt until they deciphered Joseph's unique spelling on his bone box.
The odds of being wrong then went up to 60,000:1.
Carbon dating confirmed it was around 2,ooo yrs old.
-
A minister was completing a Temperance sermon.
With great emphasis he said, "If I Had all the beer in the world,
I'd take it and pour it into the river."
With even greater emphasis he said, "And if I had All the wine in
the world, I'd take it and pour it into the river."
And then finally, shaking his fist in the air, he Said, "And if I
had all
the whiskey in the world, I'd take it and pour it into the river."
Sermon complete, he sat down.
The song leader stood very cautiously and announced with a smile,
nearly laughing, "For our closing song, Let us sing Hymn #365, "Shall We Gather
at the River."
-
I heard a man once tell (can't remember his name) why he believed Jesus Christ did in fact rise from the dead. I'm paraphrasing but He said that people will lie about almost anything but they won't give up their lives for a lie. Almost all of Jesus' disciples died for their faith. That faith was based on a risen Jesus who they claimed to have seen first hand. Would you give up your life for a religion you knew to be false?
-
This one's my favorite:
Every day for a few years, an almost old man (not quite there yet) would come into the church at 10 in the morning, and sit down in the second row of pews from the front. He would be looking down for about 10 minutes. Then he would get on his knees and pray out loud, "Dear lord, I would really like to win the lottery. It would help my family so much, and it would be so great to not have to work every day of my life until I die."
He would then get up, and leave.
The next day the same thing happened. The oldish man came in, sat down quietly for a while, and then prayed out loud, "Dear lord, I would really like to win the lottery. It would help my family so much, and it would be so great to not have to work every day of my life until I die." He then got up and left.
Again, the oldish man came in and repeated the same process. He prayed, "Dear lord, I would really like to win the lottery. It would help my family so much, and it would be so great to not have to work every day of my life until I die."
A huge BOOMING voice comes out of the rafters, "I have been trying, my son."
The oldish man replies, "You have?"
The huge booming voice replies, "I have been trying my son. But first you must buy a ticket."
-
Do you guys really want to discuss it, or is this just a place to take a shot? Curious.
I love to discuss religion, but I wouldn't want to waste your or my time.
-
BTW, here's a nice link explaining a bit.
Jesus's tomb? (http://www.y-zine.com/yJesus.htm?gclid=CKHPpeXAl4sCFRNUZQod4ySaTg)
-
This one's my favorite:
Every day for a few years, an almost old man (not quite there yet) would come into the church at 10 in the morning, and sit down in the second row of pews from the front. He would be looking down for about 10 minutes. Then he would get on his knees and pray out loud, "Dear lord, I would really like to win the lottery. It would help my family so much, and it would be so great to not have to work every day of my life until I die."
He would then get up, and leave.
The next day the same thing happened. The oldish man came in, sat down quietly for a while, and then prayed out loud, "Dear lord, I would really like to win the lottery. It would help my family so much, and it would be so great to not have to work every day of my life until I die." He then got up and left.
Again, the oldish man came in and repeated the same process. He prayed, "Dear lord, I would really like to win the lottery. It would help my family so much, and it would be so great to not have to work every day of my life until I die."
A huge BOOMING voice comes out of the rafters, "I have been trying, my son."
The oldish man replies, "You have?"
The huge booming voice replies, "I have been trying my son. But first you must buy a ticket."
A minister was completing a Temperance sermon.
With great emphasis he said, "If I Had all the beer in the world,
I'd take it and pour it into the river."
With even greater emphasis he said, "And if I had All the wine in
the world, I'd take it and pour it into the river."
And then finally, shaking his fist in the air, he Said, "And if I
had all
the whiskey in the world, I'd take it and pour it into the river."
Sermon complete, he sat down.
The song leader stood very cautiously and announced with a smile,
nearly laughing, "For our closing song, Let us sing Hymn #365, "Shall We Gather
at the River."
:aok
Keep em coming hehe!
-
Originally posted by Kieran
BTW, here's a nice link explaining a bit.
Jesus's tomb? (http://www.y-zine.com/yJesus.htm?gclid=CKHPpeXAl4sCFRNUZQod4ySaTg)
That's about what i would expect from a religious rag called "Y-Jesus" .Where to start de-bunking..Hmmm.
Must have some pork & eggs first.
-
my lame joke alludes to my skepticism of the "evidence" supporting the claim that the tomb was actually THE Jesus' tomb, and the 600 to 1 "odds" that somebody concocted to describe the probability of it being the actual tomb of Jesus of Nazareth. sounds gimmicky to me.
anyway, my belief in God, in Jesus, doesn't depend on a literal interpretation of the bible. but I am interested in the archeological sense, whether it is the real thing or not.
-
The guy behind the Jesus Family Tomb did a series called "the Naked Archaeologist" supposedly finding archaeological evidence for biblical events. His science is right up there with von Daniken IMO: ask a question, posit a possible and seemingly feasible answer and carry on with other things. When you're audience has their mind on something else treat the seemingly feasible answer as if it was proven fact. The guy may have an academic background but his science is fraudulent.
asw
-
with the "father, son and holy ghost", virgin mary, apostles, saints, arc angels,etc. The christians have more gods to pray to than the old pagans.
-
Originally posted by SirLoin
That's about what i would expect from a religious rag called "Y-Jesus" .Where to start de-bunking..Hmmm.
Must have some pork & eggs first.
Can you dispute the argument, or only the source? Be honest. If you'd like, I'll try harder to find a source you'd like. Wanna give me something that would satisfy you? Seriously.
You don't seem to have a problem with James Cameron and an orthodox Jew disputing the resurrection, that is, that source seems "untainted" to you.
How about the BBC? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6397373.stm)
How about Time? (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1593893,00.html)
Pick your source.
-
Ok, this has all manner of bad news written all over it. You folks wish to discuss this, then fine.
But the first person to get abusive and/or derogatory will get this thread closed and said person will be banned from the board.
Keep it respectful is all anyone can ask.
-
IN
-
No IN required. It is a perfectly fine topic to discuss, but one that is controversial. I find those types of topics to be ones which cannot be discussed on this board due to people not being able to maintain a modicum level of respect towards the posters.
I just decided to strike first and let people know what to expect if they decide to bad mouth others.
My guess is, this thread will die because there are not enough people available to be able to have a discussion on this topic without resorting to treating others negatively.
-
Move (http://ftp://olympus.peganet.com/misc/monty/moveon.wav) along, nothing to see...
-
The middle east is simply awash in religious "relics" of all kinds....and has been since the first century a.d. A few, a very few, are authentic. A large number are manufactured fakes.
Relics of all kinds were sold by the thousands to Christian pilgrims visiting the middle east during the medieval era. Enough wooden slivers of the "true cross" were sold to build a mansion worthy of Barbara Streisand.
It wasn't so long ago that writings surfaced purporting to show that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene, even tho most scholars believe that particular belief is unsupported by any other evidence, and was originally the doctrine of a "sect" within the Christian movement.
Also, an ossuary that had supposedly contained the bones of Jesus' brother was "discovered" in an antiquities shop in Israel. Many archaeologists had examined it and declared it to be authentic. Chemical testing for ageing later proved it to be a twentieth century fraud.
As we all know, there is a current trendy movement, fueled by a best-selling book "The DaVinci Code," that is searching for any proof that would overturn long-held religious beliefs. It only stands to reason that relics doing just that would "surface" at this particular point in time.
Jesus was a very common name in the first century. Fully a third of all women born in Israel during that time were named Mary, or Miriam. Joseph was also a very common name. It would be a miracle of Biblical proportions if an ossuary with all three of those names on it was NOT discovered.
-
How anyone can not belive in the divinity of Jesus is beyond me to be honest.
Fair enough is that yer gig, but I just find it hard to belive that anyone could doubt his divinity.
-
Originally posted by Kieran
You don't seem to have a problem with James Cameron and an orthodox Jew disputing the resurrection, that is, that source seems "untainted" to you.
How about the BBC? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6397373.stm)
How about Time? (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1593893,00.html)
Pick your source.
I read the links(btw..did u notice the sponsered links for the Time magazine article were all Christian/Bible thumper sites?)..There's your donation $$(tax exempt) being put to good use.
A couple of pieces of evidence from both sites were left out.
1:The bone box of joseph(brother of Jesus)..It turned up in Austrailia and was discounted as being from the same family...Until they did a sample of the grit layer to see the makeup of sediment for comparison.It was an exact match on the spectrograph(other samples from similar tombs were used as each cave would have it's own "sediment fingerprint").None of the others were even close.
2:The spelling of Joseph's name on the bone-box was (going from memory here) something like Jospha...A very rare name indeed(it is mentioned in the Bible)..This bumped up the probability of all the names coinciding with the Jesus family to 60,000:1(up from 600:1)
This is very compelling evidence to me(an Athiest) that Jesus was just a man with a message(there was no resurrection body & soul to heaven) and was put to death by the Romans because he was going around saying he was the son of God.I believe he was another false prophet(Alexander The Great/Achilles...both were acclaimed to be son's of Zeus...among others) with a good message(compared to some other religions).
The last point in the Time article said something to the effect "Why would his followers say they saw the resurrection if it didn't happen?"
He became a martyr and they made that up so people would buy into his divinity(like countless other prophets/religions)...
-
SirLoin...you had better read Kieran's link, which pretty well debunks the claims made by the two men espousing this tomb as authentic.
I had read similar facts in a similar article (cant recall where at the moment) calling into question the conclusions these two came to in their film.
They did NOT submit their study and its conclusions to review by a panel of their peers....they went straight to the media. That alone should make the red flags go up.
The spelling of the name on the tomb that they interpreted as being "Mary Magdalene" has also been called into question, because that particular spelling wasn't used until a century and a half after Christ's death.
The dna from the tomb which was tested was not from actual bones but from residue within the ossuary. It was tested only for a match of the mitochondrial dna, and indicated only that the two individuals identified did not share the same mother. Instead of testing it to see if the individuals shared the same father, the "researchers" jumped to the conclusion that the two were "married."
In addition, other archaeologists who visited the site said that it's evidence had been contaminated. That means that any "evidence" collected cannot be relied upon.
Finally, Kieran's link contains statements made by several archaeologists that openly question the conclusions and authenticity of the study. In, fact, most prominent archaeologists wrote off the authenticity of this tomb years ago.
-
Originally posted by Shuckins
"They did NOT submit their study and its conclusions to review by a panel of their peers....they went straight to the media."
Is there a better way to provoke discussion amongst peers?
"The spelling of the name on the tomb that they interpreted as being "Mary Magdalene" has also been called into question, because that particular spelling wasn't used until a century and a half after Christ's death."
Good point..Will look into that some more.(Btw,you mean not used or rarely used?..The spelling of Joseph's name(on the bone-box) was rarely used at the time.
"The dna from the tomb which was tested was not from actual bones but from residue within the ossuary. It was tested only for a match of the mitochondrial dna, and indicated only that the two individuals identified did not share the same mother. Instead of testing it to see if the individuals shared the same father, the "researchers" jumped to the conclusion that the two were "married."
That's called "rational interpretation of evidence"..The basis of science.
"In addition, other archaeologists who visited the site said that it's evidence had been contaminated. That means that any "evidence" collected cannot be relied upon."
I haven't heard of that one...but if it was contaminated,why was the bone-box analysis an exact match?
"Finally, Kieran's link contains statements made by several archaeologists that openly question the conclusions and authenticity of the study."
That's good..Let the rational discussion begin!
"In, fact, most prominent archaeologists wrote off the authenticity of this tomb years ago. "
That was years ago.Recent DNA/Spectrographic testing has severely discounted their conclusions
-
Sirloin where is the dna evidence coming from? Christ didn't leave any descendants for us to compare dna samples with. So wouldn't it be hard to prove the bones in this tomb are in fact Jesus Christ's?
-
Originally posted by Elfie
Sirloin where is the dna evidence coming from? Christ didn't leave any descendants for us to compare dna samples with. So wouldn't it be hard to prove the bones in this tomb are in fact Jesus Christ's?
I don't think there were any bones in the tomb.
-
Hi Sirloin,
I'll write a separate post examining the individual claims in detail, but let me first simply state that It's not just Christians debunking the so-called lost tomb, it's the secular Jewish Archaeologists who did the original excavations as well. In fact the almost unanimous consensus outside of the out to make a fast buck and the we'll promote anything that debunks the bible cadre of the scholarly community is that this has no scientific merit whatsoever.
Joe Zias, who excavated the tomb with Amos Kloner has stated definitively that the last ossuary was not the so-called "Joseph" Ossuary but was in fact blank. Zias, who is neither Christian nor Religious, but simply a secular Israeli archaeologist has a great web page entitled a Viewers Guide to Understanding the Talpiot Tomb ‘documentary' (http://www.joezias.com/tomb.html)
To quote an article from Newsblaze on the story:
"Amos Kloner, the first archaeologist to examine the site, said the idea fails to hold up by archaeological standards but makes for profitable television. Kloner said that of 900 burial caves found within four kilometers (two and a half miles) of Jerusalem's Old City and from the same era, the name Jesus or Yeshua was found 71 times, and that "Jesus son of Joseph" had also been found."
Please believe me that as someone who loves both history and archaeology, I would freely admit to it if I had any serious concerns that the "Lost Tomb" had even the slightest possibility of being authentic. As I said elsewhere, I'm not a fideist, I would not for a moment continue to pastor if this really was the "lost tomb of Jesus."
As Zias points out, this is simply yet another attempt to make a fast buck using the name of Jesus.
- SEAGOON
-
Hello Again Sirloin,
As promised, here is a more detailed response to the whole "Lost Tomb" debacle. It's basis was the longer response I gave to the "Lost Tomb" controversy on the Sunday the Discovery Channel aired Cameron and Jacobovichi's documentary. The original PDF of that Sermon is available here:
The full PDF of that response is available here (http://www.sermonaudio.com/mediapdf/35071320.pdf) while an MP3 of it is available here (http://media06.sa-media.com/sermons022/35071320.mp3)
Here in short, is a condensed presentation and interaction with some of the major problems with the Whole Lost Tomb theory:
In 1980 workers in Talpiot, a southwestern suburb of Jerusalem, were excavating an area to build an apartment block when the came upon a tomb. This was no big deal, there were countless tombs in the area, and you really can’t put a spade down in Israel and dig without hitting history in very quickly. So they called in the archaeologists who excavated the large tomb which contained Ten Ossuaries and the remains of up to 35 people. An Ossuary is a carved stone “bone box” used during the period of the second temple, that is up until the Romans destroyed the second temple in 70 AD. Generally, they were only used by wealthy people. You would bury someone in a winding shroud in a niche in the family tomb, and then a year later you would go back and collect their bones, which were bundled together, and sometimes you put them into one of these smaller boxes called Ossuaries. That way you could keep reusing the niches in the family tomb for new burials. These Ossuaries are so common in Israel that wealthy people actually buy them and use them for planters.
Six of the Ten Ossuaries had names on them, the tenth is missing, but the original archaeologists on the dig, Joe Zias and Amos Kloner, report it was blank The names were Yeshua bar Yehosef (Jesus Son of Joseph), Mariamenou-Mara (they are translating it as Mary known as the Master it is actually Mariam known as Martha), Yehuda bar Yeshua (Judah son of Jesus), Matia (Matthew), Yose (a form of Joseph), and Maria (and Mary). All of the inscriptions are in Aramiac except for Mariamenou-Mara which is in Greek.
Now why when the Archaeologist saw those names didn’t they say "OH MY we’ve discovered the LOST TOMB OF JESUS!?" Was it because none of them had read the New Testament? NO. It was because they saw those names on Ossuaries ALL THE TIME. In fact for instance, 21% of all the Jewish women in the first century were named Maria or a variant of Mariam. 3.4% of all men had the name Yeshua which is the name Joshua. That makes it more common than my name Andrew is in the USA today.
They just filed it away and moved on, it wasn’t until Simcha Jacobovici producer of documentaries like "Yummy Mummy" began to get involved that the profile got jacked up. From the start he was looking to make a connection between these Ossuaries and Jesus Christ. In effect he was doing archaeology backwards. The big problem with the cluster of six names was Mariamenou-Mara, and indirectly Yehuda bar Yeshua, neither of which are mentioned in the Bible.
But Jacobovici finally managed to find a "gospel" of sorts which mentions a Mariamne, a Gnostic gospel called the Acts of Phillip which may have been written in the 5th century but the earliest copy we have of it dates to the 14th century. In it, Mariamne is called the sister of Phillip the Apostle and sister of Martha and in this gospel she does amazing things like evangelizing foreign nations and when persecuted “became like an ark of glass full of light and fire and every one ran away.” The Acts of Phillip doesn’t say she is Mary Magdalene but one scholar says that is who she is, and that scholar is who Simcha chose to believe. The Acts of Philip also doesn’t say she married Jesus nor had children either. But since the current vogue following the Da Vinci Code says that’s what Mary Magdalene did, it follows that if Mariamne is Mary Magdalene she must have been Jesus’ wife.
So they tested mitochondrial DNA from the remaining fragments in the Yeshua and Mariamne boxes and found out that A) they were both Jews and B) they did not have the same mother. Therefore Simcha concluded they must have been MAN AND WIFE! What they did not tell you in the book was that the same DNA lab that did the tests told them they could have been: father and daughter, paternal cousins, half brother and sister or simply two totally unrelated individuals in the same burial tomb.
But if you don’t believe the DNA Then there is the statistical evidence. It is, according to Simcha, a 600 to 1 possibility that these 6 names could occur together, so they must be the family of Jesus Christ.
There is good reason that Mark Twain commented once that there are “Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics.” Use them right and you can prove or disprove ANYTHING. It is actually statistically far, far, less likely than 600 to 1 that in the modern day one family would consist of six people bearing the names Andrew, Joy, Margaret, Victor, Graham, and Isabel.
Based on statistics, you can show just how unlikely it is that my family actually exists. That’s it, that’s really all they have for their theory. Some common names, a DNA test that actually proves nothing you haven’t assumed already, and a far-fetched theory from a Gnostic Gospel. Oh that and some support from the media, from people who want to make money, and from a few members of the eager to disbelieve Christianity side of the scholarly community. Perhaps the worst example of this support is from James
Tabor, chair of religious studies at UNC-Charlotte, who previously wrote a book named the Jesus Dynasty arguing that Jesus was the illegitimate child of a Roman soldier named Pantera. Now he has come out supporting The Lost Tomb, which assumes that according to the inscription Jesus is the son of Joseph! In other words, he is willing to support any theory except the one in the Biblical Gospels.
Now in the evidence against the Lost Tomb Category, I could go on all day. Let me give you just a few.
• The tomb itself was not secret it was ornamented, prominent, and would have been well known. If the Jews had know where Jesus’ family plot was they would have dragged out his ossuary every time the Apostle’s preached. The Apostles would have been the laughing stock of Jerusalem.
• If Jesus had a son name Judah, whom Simcha argues wrote Gnostic Gospels including the Gospel of Thomas which was written in Coptic Greek well over 100 years after the death of Christ (one scholar wonders “was there a fax in that ossuary, I wonder?”) why is he never mentioned, even in the Gnostic Gospels that would have loved to have mentioned him.
• Why is Matthew, who wasn’t related to Jesus, buried in his family tomb?
• Jesus is NEVER called “Son of Joseph” by his family members or Apostles; in fact we only have one reference in John 6:42 and that is from his enemies.
• No DNA evidence can prove any relation to the actual Jesus, we have no control sample. Also why only test the Yeshua and Mariamne DNA?
• Mary Magdalene is always called Maria in all first century literature
• The names on the Ossuaries are in three languages suggesting a multi-generational tomb of long use. Certainly there is no reason for a family that spoke Aramaic to record names in three languages in two generations.
• Why would the Jesus family tomb have been in Jerusalem when he was born in Bethlehem and His Family lived in Nazareth?
• The So-called James Ossuary has definitively been shown not to have come from this tomb contrary to Jacobovici’s theory. There is currently a fraud trial going on in Israel which has even thrown doubt on whether the inscription on the ossuary itself is authentic.
- SEAGOON