Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: JAWS2003 on March 28, 2007, 12:21:35 PM
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Vote for a Russian bomber.
No other aircraft in that list is more needed then a Russian bomber.
I'm not Russian and I don't like their planes much.
But.
They are one of the two strongest powers engaged in WW2. They did the most damage to the germans in ww2 and they lost the most lives.:(
I think the red airforce is really poorly represented in AH.
Is really sad to make Russian front missions with only bostons and A20s.
I would have liked to see an early Russian fighter coming to the game like the Yak1/1b, Mig3, or even I-16, because the war on the eastern front didn't start in 1943 but in 1941. :cry
Out of the list of planes that was posted one of the russian bombers should be in the first, simply because there's no Russian bomber in the game.
Out of the two that have a chance to get in, Pe-2 and Tu-2 the first one saw more action( around 11,400 Pe-2s were built). Fast and capable to carry big bomb load plus forwarf firing weapons. It did it all from heavy fighter to dive bombing, level bombing and strafing.
The second one is a very fast later war bomber that would fit better in the usually popular late war arenas.
One of the fasterst ww2 bombers capable to carry 4000KG of bombs. 2257 Tu-2s were built and were in use even in korean war.
Pe-2
http://=http://www.aviation.ru/Pe/]http://www.aviation.ru/Pe/
(http://www.aviation.ru/Pe/Pe-2_a.jpg)
(http://www.aviation.ru/Pe/Pe-2_b.jpg)
Tu-2
http://avia.russian.ee/air/russia/tu-2.php (http://avia.russian.ee/air/russia/tu-2.php)
(http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/visits2-pages/moscow_2005_files/day_06_26.jpg)
[(http://www.simonb6.co.uk/2002/DS-TU-2-UNK-1.jpg) (http://us.airliners.net/photos/photos/0/5/8/0503850.jpg) http://avia.russian.ee/air/russia/tu-2.php (http://avia.russian.ee/air/russia/tu-2.php)
As much as i would like to see a Me410 in the game:p, I think one of this two planes are the missing link from AH.:p
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I suppose one could argue the Il-2 is indeed a "ground attack" platform and not strictly a bomber.
The Pe/Tu 2s were very capable and fast bombers, no chance though it doesn't have a white star on it.
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They've got all kinds of Lend Lease A20s!
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The Il2 is a bomber aint it?
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Originally posted by Guppy35
They've got all kinds of Lend Lease A20s!
Do you think USSR fought a war only with A20's?
Over 1100 Pe2's were built. Why would we ignore this kind of numbers and replace them with planes from another country.
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Originally posted by VWE
The Il2 is a bomber aint it?
Il-2 is not qualifying as a bomber in AH because it can't level bomb and can't use formations.
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Oh yeah? So how come when all the fighter hangers are destroyed I can still up an Il2? Hmmmm?
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Originally posted by JAWS2003
They did the most damage to the germans in ww2
Nothing against russia's WWII efforts.
But how much strat bombing did they do?
Bronk
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Originally posted by VWE
Oh yeah? So how come when all the fighter hangers are destroyed I can still up an Il2? Hmmmm?
Good point!
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Pe2 and Tu2 were not accomplished level bombers. Both were dive bombers. Hence the light bombloads. I'm sure they *could* level bomb, but did they even have bombsights? Pe-2, as far as I can remember, didn't have one. It had a nice glass nose so the pilot could aim better as he was diving. There was a crew of 2 and later 3, none of which included a bombadier.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Nothing against russia's WWII efforts.
But how much strat bombing did they do?
Bronk
Enough to deserve one Twin engine bomber in a game that already has six allied bombers from the west.
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If you are going on sheer numbers produced, then the B-25 is the best choice as the Russians flew droves of those as well.
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Originally posted by JAWS2003
Enough to deserve one Twin engine bomber in a game that already has six allied bombers from the west.
Please point me to a read of Russia's strat bombing campaign.
Being serious here.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Krusty
Pe2 and Tu2 were not accomplished level bombers. Both were dive bombers. Hence the light bombloads. I'm sure they *could* level bomb, but did they even have bombsights? Pe-2, as far as I can remember, didn't have one. It had a nice glass nose so the pilot could aim better as he was diving. There was a crew of 2 and later 3, none of which included a bombadier.
While the fiat G55 was built in how many airframes? 150? 170?
can you compare that with over 11000 Pe-2's?
All the AH needs is another "too little and too late" late war furballer.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Bodhi
If you are going on sheer numbers produced, then the B-25 is the best choice as the Russians flew droves of those as well.
Completely agree with that.
The only thing is that there are few more US multi engine bombers already in game, while the Russians have none.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Please point me to a read of Russia's strat bombing campaign.
Being serious here.
Bronk
The point is thatthey were used on large enough scale to deserve the addition of one of them in the game.
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Jaws, how many Yaks were made?
How many LAs?
How many IL2s?
Out of the ENTIRE Soviet airforce (both lend-lease AND home-built), how many airframes served in WW2, for the Soviet Union?
And, what percent of that many hundreds of thousands is made up by 11,000 Pe-2s?
While the Pe-2 is quite iconic, and yes the VVS planelist has holes in it, it doesn't compare with your changing the focus to the G.55, which made up almost 10% of the IT air force.
That diversion aside, I like the Pe-2, but get your arguments down before tossing them out.
1) The Soviets lost more people in the war, they deserve more planes
- no... They lost more people because they posessed leaders with no scruples, morals, or convictions, and sent unarmed farmers into the machine guns of the Germans.
2) the allies already have 6 bombers
- the allies focused MAINLY on bombing campaigns. The fighters were only there to protect the bombers or attack the bombers. The Soviets had bomber designs and chose NOT to pursue them, because it wasn't important to them.
3) 11000 Pe-2s were made! It must be included!
- sure, 11000 out of how many total? The Soviets built up a disposable society during that war. LA7s were meant to last no longer than 6 months before falling apart. Lend-lease P-39s and P-40s had their engines run so high that they had to be changed out ever 2 sorties or so. Where there were about 30,000(?) IL2s made, and even more yaks, lavochkins, and where almost 10,000 P-39s of various types were shipped there, not counting other types... 11,000 is a drop in the bucket.
So, yes, we could very much use the Pe-2, but not for the reasons you've listed. Sorry.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Pe2 and Tu2 were not accomplished level bombers. Both were dive bombers. Hence the light bombloads. I'm sure they *could* level bomb, but did they even have bombsights? Pe-2, as far as I can remember, didn't have one. It had a nice glass nose so the pilot could aim better as he was diving. There was a crew of 2 and later 3, none of which included a bombadier.
(http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3342/pe2pdf0pj.jpg)
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Originally posted by JAWS2003
Enough to deserve one Twin engine bomber in a game that already has six allied bombers from the west.
Your answer to my question.
A very pointed question I might add.
Then I ask for a read of it.
I asked nothing about numbers produced. My question was how they were used.
Because
They did the most damage to the germans in ww2
Is suspect, I'd say Britt and U.S. strat bombing campaign did far more damage to Germany. In material, moral, and probably lives.
How many lives lost in Dresden alone?
So please how about that read on Russia's strat campaign.
Bronk
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So, yes, we could very much use the Pe-2, but not for the reasons you've listed. Sorry.
Who the *** cares?
...as if smudging other people's request threads would actually up your chances for a G.55.
I won't be surprised if people who got tired of you showing up in every single lobby thread to tell people why the plane they like is an inferior choice, would ignore the G.55 completely just to see you get miffed.
So please, go pom-pom for your plane in your favorite plane thread.
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Jaws, we all know that IL2 is the epitome of accuracy, right?
Right? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Kweassa
...as if smudging other people's request threads would actually up your chances for a G.55.
I won't be surprised if people who got tired of you showing up in every single lobby thread to tell people why the plane they like is an inferior choice, would just ignore the G.55 completely just to see you get miffed.
So please, go pom-pom for your plane in your favorite plane thread.
Kweassa, go start a fight elsewhere. I am not "smudging up" other threads. Ye of short memory, I've requested the Pe-2 for years. If we get it I'll be pleased as pie. I'm voting for something else though. Jaws is the one that brought up the G.55 with his diversion tactic.
Like I said, quite clearly, quite plainly, "So, yes, we could very much use the Pe-2, but not for the reasons you've listed. Sorry."
We *DO* need the Pe-2, but not for the trumped-up reasons Jaws presented.
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Originally posted by JAWS2003
The point is thatthey were used on large enough scale to deserve the addition of one of them in the game.
I agree, I would have no qualms if were added. Because It was widely produced and used.
I'm just on about the how.
Bronk
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By Germany I doubt he means the physical geography itself, but the German war effort.
And since 70-85% of all German Heer and Luftwaffe casualties (respectively the lowest and highest estimates I've seen) occurred on the Eastern front, it can be argued that the VVS's tactical bombing had more real impact on the war than the strat campaign. Its a debatable point at best since you could also say that the Luftwaffe would have been able to put more of its forces securing the air in the East if it wasn't defending against the 8th Air Force and Bomber command, etc.
The Tu/Su/Pes were tac bombers. They Soviets built a few "heavy" bombers but the Soviets rightly deemed strat bombing to be a less efficient use of their hardware and material, especially with the US and UK doing so much of it already.
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All the AH needs is another "too little and too late" late war furballer.
Ooooo... that's almost sig material there... :rofl
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Is suspect, I'd say Britt and U.S. strat bombing campaign did far more damage to Germany. In material, moral, and probably lives.
How many lives lost in Dresden alone?
Stalingrad or Leningrad would make Dresden look like a picnic. The entire US bombing campaign from 1943 to the end of war combined, couldn't match a single USSR-vs-Germany campaign in terms of the sheer amount of destruction, Bronk. Military losses alone, not counting civilian casualties, amount up to 5 million KIA/MIA for Axis forces(Germans and their co-belligerants), and 10 million for the Soviets.
I wouldn't want to belittle the achievements of the Western Allies in their collective effort to put an end to the Third Reich, but honestly, THE largest front of WW2 was the Eastern Front, and its there where the outcome of the war was decided.
There's just no changing that fact.
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Like I said, quite clearly, quite plainly, "So, yes, we could very much use the G.55, but not for the reasons you've listed. Sorry."
Lets just put this little disclaimer on all of your posts Krusty, too little too late :rofl
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Stalingrad or Leningrad would make Dresden look like a picnic. The entire US bombing campaign from 1943 to the end of war combined, couldn't match a single USSR-vs-Germany campaign in terms of the sheer amount of destruction, Bronk.
Yea firestorm that creates 100 mph+ winds are a picnic.
Could you downplay that just a bit more.
Tell that to the low estimated 250k dead "picnic".
Oh and thats just 1 city on the receiving end of a "picnic".
Picnic pffft.
Bronk
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Hrm... we tell you to stop spamming the G.55 thread, so you go spam other threads?
Tsk tsk
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Stalingrad or Leningrad would make Dresden look like a picnic. The entire US bombing campaign from 1943 to the end of war combined, couldn't match a single USSR-vs-Germany campaign in terms of the sheer amount of destruction, Bronk.
I wouldn't want to belittle the achievements of the Western Allies in their collective effort to put an end to the Third Reich, but honestly, THE largest front of WW2 was the Eastern Front, and its there where the outcome of the war was decided.
There's just no changing that fact.
Good luck trying to get past the idea ingrained in the minds of all Americans from youth that the U.S.A won the war almost single-handedly like John Wayne riding into town with a couple six shooters, saving the frightened and defenseless women of Europe (U.K/U.S.S.R) from the evil hun. You tell someone that the vast majority of German military casualties were sustained on the Ostfront and most of the time you'll run into "but... but.. but...". Europeans know better, and of course the more well informed and read Americans do, but Joe Q Public thinks Patton won teh war.
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Well then I guess this uneducated American would ask HTC what his target audience is, and would have the broadest appeal to the masses.
I don't think that's a Pe-2 :)
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They look sexy too.:)
Pe-2
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/%3cFA%3eJaws/pe2_350.gif)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/%3cFA%3eJaws/pe3.gif)
Tu-2
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/%3cFA%3eJaws/tu2d.gif)
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Originally posted by quintv
You tell someone that the vast majority of German military casualties were sustained on the Ostfront
Never said military casualties.
I said Lives, as in guess what you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Or do you think those civilian lives had NO impact ?
Bronk
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Yea firestorm that creates 100 mph+ winds are a picnic.
Could you downplay that just a bit more.
Tell that to the low estimated 250k dead "picnic".
Oh and thats just 1 city on the receiving end of a "picnic".
Imagine a Dresden bombing that lasts for 7 months when comparing with Stalingrad, and one that lasts 3 years when comparing with Leningrad. Dresden is undoubtably the singe largest bombing raid of WW2 but it lasted for two days. The Russian cities facing against three German army groups, however, were bombed constantly with no discretion towards civilian facilities whatsoever, for years.
Dresden turned into a parking lot in the February of 1945, by which time the Soviets already had plenty of parking lots all over their entire Western border areas. 250k dead in a single day is gruesome, but add up the numbers and see in which part of Europe the Germans died by the thousands everyday for years.
We're talking about a front in which the military disassembles entire industries and moves them by transportation, and then reassembles them in safe areas, here.
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Originally posted by JAWS2003
They look sexy too.:)
The Pe-2, at least, is quite sexy!
It's hard to get the curves and angles from the line drawings. If you can handle a scale model of it or something, you really get a feel for how sleek it is.
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Originally posted by Bronk
Your answer to my question.
A very pointed question I might add.
Then I ask for a read of it.
I asked nothing about numbers produced. My question was how they were used.
Because
Is suspect, I'd say Britt and U.S. strat bombing campaign did far more damage to Germany. In material, moral, and probably lives.
How many lives lost in Dresden alone?
So please how about that read on Russia's strat campaign.
Bronk
Are you trying to say german though the east front was not really something to worry about ? :p
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Originally posted by Bronk
Never said military casualties.
I said Lives, as in guess what you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Or do you think those civilian lives had NO impact ?
Bronk
A hell of a lot less than the lives of the German soldiers and airmen.
Even if it were a 1v1 trade off I don't believe civilian casualties as a result of the strategic campaign amounted to the loss of live sustained by the Wehrmact in east.
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Never said military casualties.
I said Lives, as in guess what you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Or do you think those civilian lives had NO impact ?
You don't want to talk about civilian casualties of the Eastern Front. You probably wouldn't want to talk about what the Soviets did to the German civilians on their warpath from Kursk to Berlin, either.
The Western allies sent the Soviets vital resources. The lend-lease was absolutely neccessary for the Soviets survivng the first two years. The American bomber campaigns did have serious effects in German production (despite the fact Germans produced more resources than ever, in 1944, when the bombing campaigns were at its peak). Their offensive in Africa and in the Mediterranean was important, too. The Normandy landings did open up a 2nd 'groundwar' front which Stalin was demanding for years.
However, again, you don't want to compare those with the Eastern front.
Bear in mind that Donitz, after Hitler killed himself, and Germany was on the brink of collapse, wanted to treat with the Western Allies and stop the Russians, not the other way around. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out who the Germans were more scared of.
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Bronk
EDIT: yes Kweassa you are right. we all know thats what you need to hear.
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I'm not lobying for this Russian bombers because they are my favorite or something like that.
From the list HTC posted my favorite is Me-410 by far. But. I look at this as a chance to plug a hole in the game.
What plane from that list would plug the biggerst hole in the game?
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wish i had two votes, i'm stuck between the Tu-2, Me 410 and A 26
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Good luck trying to get past the idea ingrained in the minds of all Americans from youth that the U.S.A won the war almost single-handedly like John Wayne riding into town with a couple six shooters, saving the frightened and defenseless women of Europe (U.K/U.S.S.R) from the evil hun. You tell someone that the vast majority of German military casualties were sustained on the Ostfront and most of the time you'll run into "but... but.. but...". Europeans know better, and of course the more well informed and read Americans do, but Joe Q Public thinks Patton won teh war.
True, it was a total effort, by all the allied nations...If you take 1 of them away, you can see what happens:
BRITAIN OUT: With Germany's Western front secure, they can bring ALL of their resources to bear on the USSR, Since the U.S. will play hell trying to strike at Germany from across the Atlantic, with no Staging areas in the British Isles.
USSR OUT: Just like the no UK scenario, only this time it's in reverse, This gives the german's a very good chance to invade england, once all of their manpower, material, and industry don't have to feed two fronts.
USA OUT: without American support, such as lend lease, Industrial Raw materials, equipment, etc. The Brits are in real trouble, both at home and abroad. The soviets, whilst not recieving quite as much aid from Lend-Lease as the UK did, Still needed everything we could send them. If Britain has no help, then this scenario might rapidly turn into the BRITAIN OUT scenario, only this time Russia has no help from the US, either.
Quint, whereas I agree that Most US schools are lacking, as far as history is concercerned, It can be said that a large part of the allied victory in the Second world war was due to US involvement on the side of the allies. What really crippled the Germans was'nt the Tactical air attacks on Wermacht units on the Russian front, but the RAF Bomber command and the U.S. 8th AF's bombing campaign against Industrial germany. If that campaign had never started, Hitler's war machine could have changed the tide of the war in the east, as well.
Edit:I do know that the USSR lost 20million+ during WWII...But, as has been previously stated, That was through alot of ineptness on both Stalin's part, and that of his General Staff(Those who had survived the purges of the '30's,) and also through German policies on how both prisoners and subjugated territories were treated.(the Gestapo rounded up Jews wherever they could.)
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That's because the Germans knew the Russians, like themselves had no soul...
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Originally posted by Krusty
Jaws, how many Yaks were made?
How many LAs?
How many IL2s?
Out of the ENTIRE Soviet airforce (both lend-lease AND home-built), how many airframes served in WW2, for the Soviet Union?
And, what percent of that many hundreds of thousands is made up by 11,000 Pe-2s?
I compiled production numbers for all the higher-production-number aircraft.
Here's the list of the Russian ones. It isn't a perfect list, but gives a good idea of relative numbers. If anyone wants to post additions or corrections to it, please also site your source.
---- RUSSIA ----
From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ List_..._
the_CIS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...2C_World_War_II
http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90..._roosevelt.html
Yak-9, 16769
La-5, 9920
I-16, 9004
Yak-1, 8720
Yak-7, 6339
LaGG-3, 6258
La-7, 5753
P-39, 5007 (from US)
Yak-3, 4848
MiG-3, 3120
Hurricane, 2952 (from UK)
P-63, 2421 (from US)
Spitfire, 1331 (from UK)
Il-2, 29937
Pe-2, 11427
SB-2, 6656
Il-4, 5256
A-20, 2700 (from US)
Tu-2, 2527
DB-3, 1528
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
What really crippled the Germans was'nt the Tactical air attacks on Wermacht units on the Russian front, but the RAF Bomber command and the U.S. 8th AF's bombing campaign against Industrial germany. If that campaign had never started, Hitler's war machine could have changed the tide of the war in the east, as well.
It would be hard to argue against the strat bombing campaign and the swarm of aircraft the U.S was able to throw into the meat grinder over Germany.
If you are comparing the U.S/U.K strat effort against the Red Army's effort though and saying the former was more decisive, thats simply not a sustainable argument in any way.
Edit: I guess this is off-topic though, a different dicussion really. The Pe and Tu 2 should definately see the light of day sometime.
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I'd like to see aircraft added to Aces High in order of how much they were used in WWII (production numbers are a good analog for that) and for rounding out plane sets for special events.
Nevertheless, whatever is picked, I'll be happy, as it is one more plane in Aces High.
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Quint, whereas I agree that Most US schools are lacking, as far as history is concercerned, It can be said that a large part of the allied victory in the Second world war was due to US involvement on the side of the allies.
True, it was a large effort.
But the problem is many Americans have a tendency to think the Allied were losing the war until the US entered the stage and turned the tide for them. What really happened was by the time US entered the stage in ETO the Russians were on the comeback, organized the largest counter-offensive of modern military warfare upto that point of history, made mincemeat out of two of the three army groups that invaded Russia and totally annihilated the other (which comprised about 80% of the strength of the formerly 'invincible' Wehrmacht), halted German advance totally and made the situation so bad for the Germans of the High command that they started to choke out in daily meetings.
US efforts were undoubtably the largest in the areas west of Berlin, but it just pales in contrast when you pit them against the amount of sacrifice both the Germans and Russians had laid out between Moscow and Berlin.
What it Germany was still in cahoots with the Russians? What if Operation Sealion was attempted at some point? What if the Brits had to face the same amount of military might the Russians had faced on their own home isle? Would they have survived that?
Yes, WW2 was a collective effort of all the brave men and women of all the Allied forces, but is it really so hard to admit that it was the Russians that pulled most of the weight?
What really crippled the Germans was'nt the Tactical air attacks on Wermacht units on the Russian front, but the RAF Bomber command and the U.S. 8th AF's bombing campaign against Industrial germany. If that campaign had never started, Hitler's war machine could have changed the tide of the war in the east, as well.
Industrial Germany was producing more materials, resources, planes and tanks than ever, at the peak of the bomber campaigns by the RAF and the USAAF. It was soldiers and pilots Germany lacked, and the absolute majority of the decimation of human resources for Germany, happened east of Berlin, not the west.
Germany was already crippled by the Russians. It took a lot of help from US and UK until the Russians finally pushed the Germans in that state, but the crippling blow itself came from "Ivan" next door.
The Germans were waiting for the coup-de-grace, when a suckerpunch came from the backside in the form of Omaha Beach,
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To be honest all this aircraft should have been in the game long time ago.
There are huge holes to plug in AH.
- Early Russian fighters like Yak1/1b, Lagg3 or I16 are needed.
-Early Japanese army planes like the Oscar.
-Russian tactical bombers like the Pe2 or tu2.
-Ki-44 is also a missing link in Japanese army planes.
-A late war German bomber like Ju-188 or He177.
-Mobile AAA's are needed.
-More tanks
-I would love to see a decent destroyer to deffend the ports and costal bases.
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I should have added in my previous post, Kweassa, that Hitler made some really bad political/Strategic calls, too.
The RAF was on the ropes, it's airfields under Fighter Command were decimated, All the Air marshals giving them 6 weeks or less...
When Hitler got mad at a nighttime bomb raid on Berlin, and switched targets to cities instead.
Fighter command rebuilt, stopped Georing, and forced the cancellation of Operation Sea Lion.
While still not even finished with the BoB, He turns on Stalin, and attacks east.
While Making great initial gains, and sweeping victories, his lines of supply, and the fact that he let up on GB, cause him to slowly bog down in Russia.
Almost all of this is done against the wishes of the General Staff, but who can say no to the Fuhrer?
Really, these reasons have to also be listed as to why the Allies came out victorious. Blunders at the highest level, had they been averted, could have changed the outcome too.
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Some pics of the Tu-2
(http://www.tupolev.ru/images/Pictures/GeneralConstructors/B/003_b.jpg)
tupolev Tu-2 gunship.:D
(http://www.ppsh41.com/88ppsh.jpg)
(http://www.communisme-bolchevisme.net/images/war_soviet_tu2%20_1942.jpg)
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Pe-2 :)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/%3cFA%3eJaws/1_13.jpg)
:)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The Germans were waiting for the coup-de-grace, when a suckerpunch came from the backside in the form of Omaha Beach,
Not to mention Gold, Juno and Sword.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Well then I guess this uneducated American would ask HTC what his target audience is, and would have the broadest appeal to the masses.
I don't think that's a Pe-2 :)
They want a Soviet bomber..fine, give them a SB-2 and watch em
choke on it :D
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WW2 footage of Pe2 in action:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7eaFzEEqmI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7eaFzEEqmI)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Imagine a Dresden bombing that lasts for 7 months when comparing with Stalingrad, and one that lasts 3 years when comparing with Leningrad. Dresden is undoubtably the singe largest bombing raid of WW2 but it lasted for two days. The Russian cities facing against three German army groups, however, were bombed constantly with no discretion towards civilian facilities whatsoever, for years.
Dresden turned into a parking lot in the February of 1945, by which time the Soviets already had plenty of parking lots all over their entire Western border areas. 250k dead in a single day is gruesome, but add up the numbers and see in which part of Europe the Germans died by the thousands everyday for years.
We're talking about a front in which the military disassembles entire industries and moves them by transportation, and then reassembles them in safe areas, here.
Wow, makes you wonder why the west even bothered fighting.
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Didn't the German army have something like 20 batallions (maybe incorrect term, i dont follow army stuff much) in the Western front, and something like 120 in the East?
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We need a russian plane that can drop more that 600kg of bombs like the IL2. Actually that was the Pe-2 typical load but it could hold up to 1000kg in the early versions, and it had a level bombing sight.
Along with the bombsight for level bombing in the glass nose, the pilot had a windscreen bombsight for dive bombing
http://www.vectorsite.net/avpe2.html#m3 (http://www.vectorsite.net/avpe2.html#m3)
The variant to have in AH would be the Pe2FT, because we don't care much of the high altitude performance, and that more defence is always better :)
I don't know much about the Tu-2, tell me about it ! I'm reading the webpage you posted earlier :D
I did vote for the Russian bomber :aok
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Here some more info:
"The prototype Tu-2, designated ANT-60 was completed following the evacuation of the Moscow facility to Omsk in 11/41 and the maiden flight occurred on 12/15/41. State and manufacturer’s trials occurred from 12/15/41-8/22/42. On 3/28.42, the aircraft was given the production designation of Tu-2. Powered by two 1,700-hp M-82 engines, top speed was 323 mph with a service ceiling of 29,500 feet and a range of 1,255 miles. Armament consisted of 3 7.62mm machineguns (1 rearward firing), 2 12.7mm machineguns and 2 20mm cannon and 10 132mm rockets. Normal bomb load was 2,204 lbs with a maximum bomb load of 6,613 lbs. At the end of 1941, production began with the first 3 bombers being completed in 2/42. Defects in their engines meant that the planes were not sent to units until 9/42 when they were sent to the 3rd Air Army. During the service trials, the aircraft flew 25 combat missions without a loss. Each aircraft flew once a day on an average flight range of 310 miles with bomb loads ranging from 2,204-4,409 lbs. On the whole, the Tu-2 received a more favorable assessment than the Pe-2. It was noted that the aircraft had a powerful armament, was almost 62 mph faster at low and medium altitudes and could carry up to 6,613 lbs of bombs. Several shortcomings were also pointed out.
The 132nd Bomber Air Regiment soon arrived at the front. By the beginning of the Soviet counter-offensive at Stalingrad, 17 Tu-2s were operational of which 15 were combat ready. All were in the 3rd Air Army at the Kalinin Front. Marshall Novikov, the Commander-in-Chief of the Soviet Air Force wrote that the Tu-2s were essential to the front line regiments. After stating that the Pe-2s had insufficient range and that it was difficult to organize the cooperation of the bombers on the different fronts, he concluded that the Tu-2 was necessary. Novikov’s report and the report on the results of the Tu-2’s service trials were late. An order stopping the production of the Tu-2 at the Omsk factory and replacing it with the Yak-9 fighter had been issued on 10/7/42. Tupolev went to Moscow to argue his case for continuation of the production of the Tu-2. When Tu-2 production was interrupted, the reports reached the Central Committee Secretariat and Stalin in person. The aircraft had been highly praised and A. Shakhurin, the Aircraft Industry People’s Commissar was called before Stalin and told that the Tu-2 was to go back into production. On 6/17/43 the decision was taken to continue production at Plant 23 in Moscow, that had just started building Ilyushin Il-4s.
In spite of the interruption of in production, Tupolev continued development work on the Tu-2. The most comprehensive changes included the air brake grids and automatic dive recovery control system were removed, the tailplane was made non-adjustable the nose machineguns were removed, the control system was simplified and the fuel system was considerably simplified. In addition, the plane was given the 1,850-hp M-82FN engines that resulted in a maximum speed of 328 mph at sea level and 352 mph at 18,000 feet. On the basis of the test results, on 7/20/43, this version of the Tu-2 was placed in production. On 8/26/43, the first fully modified Tu-2 flew for the first time and the state and manufacturer’s trials began shortly thereafter. These suffered protracted delay due to the leading engineer, but the test reports showed the Tu-2 had better performance than other types then serving with the VVS. The service ceiling and range (31,200 feet and 1,304 miles) were even better than specified but directional stability was still inadequate. In addition, the pilot’s and navigator’s views were poor. The M-82FN engines were also proving to be unreliable and there were problems with the propellers owing to the danger of overspeeding.
By the end of the state trials in 12/43, deliveries had begun. 16 aircraft were ready at the end of the year, and the first unit to receive them was the 47th Reconnaissance Regiment. By the beginning of 6/44, the Tu-2s were in service in large numbers and had fully equipped the 334th Bomber Air Division. On 6/17/44, the Tu-2s proved themselves in a bombing mission against the Vyborg railway terminal, delivering a particularly strong blow. After that operation the division was awarded the title of Leningradskaya.
When at the beginning of 6/44 it was decided to conduct service trials of the Tu-2, the 334th Red Banner Bomber Air Division had 87 Tu-2s, of which 74 were airworthy. The Tu-2s were used for level bombing in daytime, loaded with FAB-500 and 1000 bombs and RAB-3 bomb cassettes (which the Pe-2s could not carry), in addition to their normal load in the bomb bay and external hard points. Because the supply of bombs was irregular, the average bomb load during the first 2 months was 2,645 lbs. Not until 9/44 did it increase to 2,976 lbs. Assessing the Tu-2 from the results of the service trials, the commander of the 132nd Bomber Air Regiment wrote that it was an excellent and modern twin-engine bomber and praised its easy handling, ability to fly on one engine, high-speed, range and capability of carrying large bomb loads.
Intensive efforts were made to increase Tu-2 production, but the Moscow plant was at capacity. Consequently, in 1944 little more than 30 aircraft per day were being built. By the beginning of 1945, in addition to the 334th Bomber Air Division of the 3rd Air Army of the Baltic Front, which was equipped with 112 Tu-2s, the 336th Bomber Air Division of the 4th Air Army of the Belorussian Front had 94 Tu-2s. These units and the 47th Long-Range Reconnaissance Air Regiments were the main users operating the Tu-2. A total of 278 Tu-2s, 264 of them air worthy, comprised about 9% of the whole bomber fleet of the VVS. The low percentage was due to the fact that the Tu-2 could not replace the Pe-2 in the dive-bomber role. A total of 2,527 Tu-2s were built.
Sources:
Bill Gunston, The Osprey Encyclopedia of Russian Aircraft, Osprey, 2000.
Chris Bishop (Ed.), Encyclopedia of Weapons of World War II, Barnes & Noble, 1998.
Enzo Angelucci, Paolo Matricardi & Pierluigi Pinto, World War II Combat Aircraft, Whitestar Publishers, 2000.
Yefim Gordon & Dmitri Khazanov, Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War: V. 2: Twin-Engine Fighters, Attack Aircraft and Bombers, Midland Publishing, 1999."
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A book :D
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/%3cFA%3eJaws/Pe-220.jpg)
And a model to go with it. :D
(http://www.aviation-top-pics.com/images2/DSC01236.JPG):D
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Reality Check.
Russian, Italian, Japanese plane sets all have holes in them. German bomber force has holes in it too.
Were we talking about the addition of 4 or 5 planes to the game, Russian bombers might have a chance. If EW and AvA more popular, the He-111 might have a chance.
Since they are talking about adding 1 plane, uno, one, single,.....my bet it comes down to the only perkable bomber listed, the A-26Invader (B model with 14 forward firing .50's MGs with 400 rpg), or, more likely, one of the better performing fighters listed.
And since Yak 3 not getting much talk, my bet is the closest the Russian plane set will get to an addition is it the vote is for the P-39, and it comes as a Russian P-39 default skin from Lend-Lease and placed in the Russian plane set.
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A-26 is a very late war attacker. Is American.
American planes already in game have huge ground attack capabilities.
4xF4U's
F6F
P-38G
P-38J
P-38L
P-47D11
P-47D25
P-47D40
P-47N
P-51B
P-51D
A20
SBD
TBM
Isn't that long enough list of serious ground attack planes for one country?
There are a lot of American bombers in the game when you compare it to other major WW2 players.
Russia has NONE.
That's why I said Pe-2 or Tu-2 would plug the biggest hole in the game that from the list they provided).
No other plane in that list has more importance when it comes to representing the nations that fought in WW2. Russia gave and took more damage then all other nations except maybe USA (arguably).
American Bombers:
-B-17
-B26
-B-24
UK Bombers:
-Boston3
-Lancaster
German Bombers:
-Ju88
-Ar-223
Japan:
Ki-67
Soviet Union:
NONE
:cry
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Jaws, whereas I pretty much agree with you that we have a fairly good set of US Fighter/Attackers( Even then, we lack about half that would be useful in AvA or scenarios) There are actually some points I'd like to make on the Bombers.
USA:
B-17G-yes, but for better realism a C,E, and F would be handy.
B-26-Needs a torp option, torps used both in the pac. and by the RAF Marauder III's in the med.
B-24J-Wish this one had been a D, woulda made the Ploesti scenario's better.
You forgot the A-20's, But since they are also used Lend-Lease by the Sov's, It's actually a russ bomber in the set.
B-25-Why it was'nt in here at the same time as the 24 or earlier, beats me. But It's also a Cross-over, A win-win.
UK:
Just because we have the Lanc and the Bost.III, does'nt mean that this set is well represented.
We don't have a Short Stirling.
We don't have a Vickers Wellington.
We don't have a Handley-Page Hallifax.
We don't have an Armstrong-Whitworth Whitley.
We don't have any Hampdens.
We have 1 Mossy, but it's the Fighter variant, not the one with the glass nose, or the one with the 4,000# 'Cookie' bomb.
Come to think of it, We don't have the only allied operational Jet, either.(The Meteor, of course.)
Luftwaffe Bombers:
IMHO, the Ju-88 and the only perk bomber in the game, the Ar-234, Barely scratch the surface.Our BoB just isn't the same without the He-111 or Do-17.
A Fw-200 Condor would be their only 4 engine bomber, but it was enough of a threat for the British Admiralty to add CAM ships(Catupult-Armed-Merchantmen, A Hurri I without floats, which had to ditch at sea) to their convoys.
Also, A Ju-52. 'Nuff said.
Japan:
The Ki-67, while being one of Japan's most capable Bombers, was'nt the most important. We've been missing the G4M badly. Also, the G3M 'Nell', a very important EW Japanese bomber. The Ki-21 'Sally' as well.
Now, I'm not gonna dispute the lack of Soviet bombers; Either the Pe-2 or the Tu-2 show up in most books on Eastern front aerial combat. However, with a Red star skin on the Boston, you have the A-20C-D variant that was sent lend-lease. I guess what I'm trying to say is, we have several glaring holes in the planeset. I'd have to say that HTC has modeled about 40% of the major aircraft that flew in the war, in operational use.
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I agree with your post JAWS2003.
Problems are:
This selection was open to vote by the players. For the mostly fitr pilots from AHII to vote anything other than a fighter in is a long shot. Only perk-worthy overgunned bomber mentioned, the Invader, may see it through a couple rounds, but will fall to a fighter unless there is a big surprise. And I only push the Invader because buff pilots could really use another perk-ride option than the Arado. Invader is perk worthy in B configuration. Otherwise, you are right, American plane set is heavy enough. I would have preferred the Flak36 to the Firefly as well.
I'd love to see additonal Russian, Italian, Japanese and German planes added to the game. Not going to happen by popular vote though.
AvA, EW and MW have poor numbers, most action in the two LW's, most pilots fly fighters, and most pilots like the high performance planes. There is also a very high percentage of American players. As these are where the votes are coming from, it would suggest pretty strongly where the voting will eventually lead.
The 3 most likely contenders would be the:
Yak-3, but would have very short legs in war arenas due to fuel settings. Also, less "punch" than the other two below.
P-39 because it is the American fighter listed (that is not the Buffalo).
G.55 which reportedly was a sweet ride, has a great ammo load, but was fielded for such a very short time in limited numbers during WWII. (But exported by Italy after the war for a few years.... that says something about a plane).
As to the original post: the problem is that the best bombers Russia had during WWII generally came from Lend-Lease from America and Britain anyway. Russia did not get into strategic bombing like the other Allies. The Pe-2 and Tu-2 (light, high speed, and dive bombing) certainly had similar numbers to the B-17's and B-24's heavy bombers that were produced. Just not the impact, beyond killing lots of German front line troops and tanks. They are closer to the Ju-88, Bf110, and Ki-67 in capabilities, in the game now. And those planes see limited use compared to most in the game.
Finally, as in voting for what's popular. Adding a plane just because it was used in the war, or had great numbers, does not mean it won't be a hangar queen in the game. Adding a plane so it can be used in a senerio or two doesn't mean it will see use in the War arenas. Adding a plane just to fill out a short plane set does not mean it will get flown.
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Why do you bring in the strategic bombing when the war in Europe was won on the front line with tanks troops and tactical planes.
The same in AH. you don't win the war with the raid to the enemy HQ. you do tactical warfare, bombing and strafing the enemy front line base, so you can capture it. This is how you win the war in AH too. With tactical airpower.
Oh yeah we should add the A-26 because is American late war uber ride with a gazillion of fifty cals regardless of how many saw action, or how many other US planes there are already in the game. Other important nations in the war have to settle with a custom skin on the same US planes. :rolleyes:
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Fighter command rebuilt, stopped Georing, and forced the cancellation of Operation Sea Lion.
While still not even finished with the BoB, He turns on Stalin, and attacks east.
While Making great initial gains, and sweeping victories, his lines of supply, and the fact that he let up on GB, cause him to slowly bog down in Russia.
I find this statement questionable.
The supply lines were stretched out to their limit, and German advance was halted in a few key strategic locations by summer of 1942. In the fall and winter of 1942 the Soviet forces successfully organized the largest counter offensive of modern warfare in the history of mankind, and put a serious crack in the claims of "invincibility" of the Wehrmacht when Paulus's 6th were utterly annihilated in the most crushing defeat for the Third Reich until that point in history.
BoB was a monumental event, but just how much of German miitary might was actually decimated during 1940? Many pilots and aircraft were lost, but not a single infantry soldier landed and fought on English soil.
Operations in Africa no doubt played a certain role in keeping the Soviets in the game, but frankly the amount of actual pressure Great Britain had put against the Germans by the time the Whermacht had passed Smolensk and were marching to Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad, that would have had any kind of effect, was IMO minimal, if not negligible.
Leaving the British alone was indeed a fatal mistake when in 1943, the British isles became the very foundation of resurrecting "Western front" which was KIA at Dunkirk in 1940, but when the Soviets were fighting for their lives, I don't think Brits or the Americans were of any real help up to that point. (in terms of direct military involvement, ofcourse)
Wow, makes you wonder why the west even bothered fighting.
The West did what they were capable of, the East did theirs. The only thing is that it so happens the fights in the East was a lot bigger than the West.
In the end, it's just a matter of due recognition for both western and eastern allies alike. Whereas the Western front gets plenty of recognition and glory from enthusiasts, the jaw-dropping scope, scale, brutality, fierceness, and importance of the Eastern front is, paraphrasing a certain game product, unfortunately remains as "forgotten battles" for many Americans.
The Pe-2 and Tu-2 (light, high speed, and dive bombing) certainly had similar numbers to the B-17's and B-24's heavy bombers that were produced. Just not the impact, beyond killing lots of German front line troops and tanks.
Oh they had plenty of impact. Even the IL-2 was regarded as perhaps the most brilliant attack plane ever designed by WW2 forces, and it played an absolutely remarkable role in Eastern front warfare. Consider the fact that after summer of 1944 the interdiction role became increasingly more important for fighter-bombers and attackers of the USAAF also.
It's a matter of how the war is played out, and when you actually have to start putting in infantry to advance, the tactical bomber/attacker role becomes everybit as important as the strategic bombers.
The problem in AH is, the basic systems concerning the ground warfare aspect isn't really independant at all. Its dynamics are still tied to the aerial warfare, and the many limitations concerning how GVs are used in the game has a lot to do with some of the lighter-loaded, tactical bomber/attack aircraft being treated as little more than uselss.
Let's hope HTC frees up the ground warfare, and somehow comes up with an entirely different ground war system that depicts the ebb and flow of fronts dynamically. I think if that is achieved, the lighter, smaller bomber/attack planes such as the A-20, Il-2, and the medium bombers like Ju-88 and Ki-67, would get lots of more roles to be played out.
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It's a matter of how the war is played out, and when you actually have to start putting in infantry to advance, the tactical bomber/attacker role becomes everybit as important as the strategic bombers.
The problem in AH is, the basic systems concerning the ground warfare aspect isn't really independant at all. Its dynamics are still tied to the aerial warfare, and the many limitations concerning how GVs are used in the game has a lot to do with some of the lighter-loaded, tactical bomber/attack aircraft being treated as little more than uselss.
Let's hope HTC frees up the ground warfare, and somehow comes up with an entirely different ground war system that depicts the ebb and flow of fronts dynamically. I think if that is achieved, the lighter, smaller bomber/attack planes such as the A-20, Il-2, and the medium bombers like Ju-88 and Ki-67, would get lots of more roles to be played out.
Wherein lies the whole problem, Kweassa. While the A-20G and the IL-2 have their followers, the light twins in this game sit in the hangar, for the most part.This is why most are voting for a fighter, or hvy Bomber, due to the tactical role in the game being filled by one of the two. This is unfortunate, because it overshadows the true importance of aircraft such as the Pe-2, Tu-2, B-25 or A-26. And It's why we probably won't see any of these ingame, if left to a vote.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Wherein lies the whole problem, Kweassa. While the A-20G and the IL-2 have their followers, the light twins in this game sit in the hangar, for the most part.This is why most are voting for a fighter, or hvy Bomber, due to the tactical role in the game being filled by one of the two. This is unfortunate, because it overshadows the true importance of aircraft such as the Pe-2, Tu-2, B-25 or A-26. And It's why we probably won't see any of these ingame, if left to a vote.
Introducing new type of bomb - PTAB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTAB) would make Il2 and Pe2 extremely popular in AH, and would make Il2 what it really was - "tank destryer". You can't miss with that thing, and sinlge Il2 can kill 4 GVs in single sortie guaranteed.
It could change ground war in AH. Il2 would be used widely in defence against GV attacks on bases, air attacks in TT, clearing enemy base from flaks, etc.
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Originally posted by JAWS2003
Why do you bring in the strategic bombing when the war in Europe was won on the front line with tanks troops and tactical planes.
The same in AH. you don't win the war with the raid to the enemy HQ. you do tactical warfare, bombing and strafing the enemy front line base, so you can capture it. This is how you win the war in AH too. With tactical airpower.
Oh yeah we should add the A-26 because is American late war uber ride with a gazillion of fifty cals regardless of how many saw action, or how many other US planes there are already in the game. Other important nations in the war have to settle with a custom skin on the same US planes. :rolleyes:
WWII was fought on the front lines with tanks and troops.
The war was WON in strategic actions.
The War in the Atlantic with subs and convoys and supplies to England and Russia. The early war in the Med where Germany could not resupply Rommel in North Africa. The Battle of Britain where the shifting of targets from attacking strategic airpower to bombing London by Germany saved England. With the bombing of oil fields, synthetic refineries, and ball bearing plants throughout the German War machine. With the Red Ball Express.
Hard as it is to think about it, World War II was a war of attrition. So long as one side could continue to push the cannon-fodder forward, while preventing the other side from doing the same, they win.
Now, the game AHII, is more tactically driven. Strategic war not really fought since that would take combined effort of several bomber pilots to pull off, and the will is not there among the players most of the time.
Yes, A-26 Invader is a Late War uber-ride. It is also one of the BEST tactical aircraft to come out of WWII, which carried over to Korea and Vietnam, and other wars through the 1970s in CAS roles. It would also be one heck of a FUN ride, and this IS a game.
It is probably the best choice to add a perk-worthy bomber to the game for buff drivers to spend their buff perk points on, other than the Arado, and hopefully cut down the number of bomb-and-bail buff drivers. POSSIBLY even give a reason to play more strategic missions in the war arenas, to earn points, to be able to fly the Invader.
AvA has little population. EW and MW have little population. The SEA event attendance is hit and miss. Adding more EW rides or filling niches in the plane-sets will not change that. 'If you build it, they still ain't coming.' The majority of the player base is in the two LW arenas. The interest of the majority of players is late war, higher performance rides.
Invader's saw action in the last 8 to 9 months of the war in both the ETO and PTO. 2,452 were built and operated among 48 squadrons among the Fifth(Far East Air Force), Seventh (WPTO), Ninth(ETO), and Twelfth (MTO) Air Forces, at the very least. This included the 8th and 13th in the 3rd Bomb Group (Light) "Grim Reapers"; the 386th's 554th Bomb Squadron; and the 319th Group after assigned to the 7th AF at Okinawa.
I'd like to see the plane sets evened out more. That is not going to happen in a popular vote from the online players.
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I'd be inclined to vote for Ruski bombers if the Me-410 gets knocked out.
The russian planeset is too light.
I just hope it's not another American ride that wins... we have enough.
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Originally posted by Xasthur
I'd be inclined to vote for Ruski bombers if the Me-410 gets knocked out.
The russian planeset is too light.
I just hope it's not another American ride that wins... we have enough.
I'm in with you there Xasthur - the US has enough bombers that can address early, middle, and late war bombers.
I personally think that by adding another Soviet bomber, it fills that gaping hole - no soviet bombers.
The challenge HTC has is that they could start marketing their product to other countries. I personally think they're missing out on the German market. I mean - go buy adds in GERMAN PC magazines and websites AND TV and advertise Aces High to them. If they fill the Soviet aircraft gaps with early Mig/Yak variants, even the Lagg, they could target the former warsaw pack countries for advertising and expand their membership.
More membership = more money for development = faster turn-around times for adding new items/aircraft/vehicles/enhancements = better product = more players = higher revenue = HAPPY HTC owners. :D Nice causal loop there...
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Alredy put my vote for the Yak-3 but to see the photos and data of the Pe-2 it will made me have some nice dreams, and I agree in the fact that we needed more “No-EU” planes, we have enough of them, to have so few airplanes of one of the three great allied powers is very sad.
I hope in the future HT can add more "No-EU" planes.
PD: GO YAK-3/PE-2!!!
PD2: 1 video more Pe-2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaYnpyCNgjA)
PD3: I am going to prey to see this scene but in AHII Pe-2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hh8zDAC_Eo)
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Its a shame that such a debate brings into account a "who won the war arguement".
Which nation made the greatest sacrifices for victory ? IMO Russia 24m+ dead.
Which nation made the greatest profit? Who was the real winner? Well I wont go there.
Did a dead GI in Normandy make any less sacrifice than a dead Red army infantry man on the same day in Vilnius?
Then we start to measure victory by who killed the most in this or that action.
Dresden did nothing to lessen German moral Harris should have known this. The London Blitz had strengthened the british will and Harris should have known this.
Yet every street in Germany had soldiers or a soldier on the Eastern Front..many hearing of the hell of fighting an opponent who would gladly spill his own blood to buy back another foot of Russian soil.
At the time of the Western Allies comparatively little skirmish in Normandy the Russians wer part way thru Operation Bagration. Still the largest and most successfull offensive in the History of warfare. Many here may not even of heard of it.
Bagration saw the collapse and capture of Germanies largest single Army Group central. All histories of Bagration show it to be simply Hitlers greatest defeat. WWII in Europe (IMO) turned at Stalingrad. It was only due to Mansteins brilliant "moving pocket" defence (in early 43) that the war was drawn out into 45.
What would have happened if the Germans had invaded Great Britain and them moved on Russia in 42 ? Who knows..... my view is that eventually the Russians would have taken all of Europe bar Italy and Southern France.
German occupied Britain finally surrendering to the US and the remnants of the Commonwealth.
Should all this warrant a Pe2 or Tu2 in AH?
The role of the Pe2 in the GPW cannot be denied it was the dive bomber that the IL2 was not. [the IL2 was not a dive bomber] The Pe2 attacked just behind German lines (the il2 was almost a battlefield tool) hitting logistics feeding the battle lines. It took part in every battle of the GPW.
However whilst great for scenarios its not of sufficient strength to attract users in the MA. It would never win a contest based on popular vote.
The Tu2 may find a role in the MA. It is also derived from a dive bomber. Its wings could withstand the sort of dive that our A20 cannot. But put it beside the A26.................. again it will not win such a popular vote for MA use.
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I voted for the Pe-2/Tu-2.
Biggest gap in the set is the lack of Russian bombers.
P-39 is just another secopnd rate US fighter. Fills the same gap, more or less, as the P-40E does.
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Tu-2 FTW :D
after the bomb run two forward 20mm cannons are handy for the vulch.
(http://www.us-aircraft.com/walk/TU-2/TU2c.jpg)
(http://www.us-aircraft.com/walk/TU-2/TU-2bomber2.jpg)
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Pe-2 and Tu-2
Rest in peace :(