Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Bodhi on March 28, 2007, 12:43:42 PM
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No offense to you Finns, but:
44 were delivered to the Finns.
Yep 44.
That in and of itself is enough said, beyond the fact it's only use will be in scenarios, and how many times can you recreate the Russian / Finnish / German conflict?
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Agree
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Midway
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I agree 100%.
I love the Finns, but the plane is a POS.
I say give them an F4F skin to make it look like a Brewster and save the real development for a real plane.
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Originally posted by 96Delta
Midway
Yep, 25 aircraft were employed at Midway. 15 of which were shot down. Again, a scenario use only. At the current rate of scenarios running, the battle of midway and the finnish scenario are not likely to be seen once each in two years.
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Give the finns their plane.. Not like most of your requested planes don't get made. Look what all they do for us run most of the special events made make most of the maps. You don't see them asking for same plane every day lol.:D
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509 Brewster F2A fighters and its export versions were produced. It was used by the allied air forces in the CBI/PTO during the most desperate times when there wasn't much else throw at the advancing japanese. It can be argued if it had much effect to the course of the war at the time but it was there while not much else was.
In the eastern front a single squadron (LeLv24) of Brewster Model 239s achieved 459 victories between 25.6.1941-21.5.1944. It is claimed that LeLv24 scored more kills (759 total) than any other fighter squadron during WWII.
When looking at the major USAAF/NAVY (day) fighter types only thing missing is the P-39. Well, on the other hand all we finns want is a single fighter that was used almost exclusively (when looking at the time frame/sorties) by the finns. Americans, please consider a situation where either P-47 or P-38 would be missing from the planeset and you hopefully realize where I'm coming from.
And all we finns have done is rooted for the Brewster in a fairly positive manner without slamming the competing choises too much.
This campaining which has been going on for about a week in these boards has been fun and fairly positive.
Bodhi, was it really *that* hard to just root for your personal favourite and not start slamming the other choises?
On the other hand, considering the history of this board, if I would have known that someone is going to do this kind of a post and I would have had to guess the author I would have named about ten guys and you would have been one of them.
There's thousands of voters and my far most of them are americans who don't even read this board normally. It really isn't rocket science to figure out what are Brewster's realistic changes to get picked even without slamming posts like these...and you had to do it anyway. :) Like I said, not really rocket science. ;)
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I agree with ya Bodhi :aok
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Wmaker,
I posted my reasoning for not wanting the Brewster recreated as yet. I even offered no offense to you, but instead I get told I am bashing.
My opinion has been and will remain that there are other airframes that need recreation before the Buffalo.
Sorry that you do not agree, but that's the way I feel and why I posted asking people to vote no.
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If the Brewster doesn't make it to round two, I'll have to choose another plane to vote for. Whatever is picked, I'm happy, as it will be one more plane in Aces High.
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Originally posted by Panzzer
If the Brewster doesn't make it to round two, I'll have to choose another plane to vote for. Whatever is picked, I'm happy, as it will be one more plane in Aces High.
Yup same here. Anything new will be nice.
Bronk
Edit:
That is to say my plane of choice.
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I would vote for the Brewster, if they gave us the accompanying EW Soviet aircraft to go with it.
But nothing's more of a drag, than to have to use stand-ins in scenario's.
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Do ya'll remember the week the B-24 was released? I forget what map it was, the one with the 3 separate lands devided by seas though the North and South sea looks more like a wide river on the map. Someone launched a B-24 raid and with the formation option we had 115ish launch, I've still got that film. That's what would be cool if it were u Buff that made it, those are the times you remember... the fun stuff. :aok
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Say NO to Bodhi :p
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Now I could vote NO on one person on here, but that just wouldn't be fair nwo would it. ;)
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^
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Dr. NO
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Originally posted by Simaril
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Dr. NO
(http://www.cedmagic.com/featured/007/dn-2-4338-dr-no.jpg)
:D
Bronk
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Bodhi
If memory serves correctly the Brewster was used by the RAF in the Burma Theater of operations about the same time that the Flying Tigers were serving in China.
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Hajo,
I agree, there were probably more isolated units using them at the beginning.
Either way, production does not warrant it at this time IMHO. Again, this is my opinion thats all.
In truth, I'd rather the Brewster as opposed to the G.55 $.01 side show.
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I'd love to see the Buffalo make it -- in fact, if it does, I'll commit to fly it exclusively for an entire camp! Anyone else in? :)
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(http://www.nationalflaggen.de/shop/catalog/images/finland.gif)
(http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/gdes/images/Brewster.jpg)
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I would rather see the P-39 or the Brewster to the "Italian Ta-152" < in terms of #s, not performance.
There should be a standing rule in AH2, unless a minimum of 500 were built in WW2, and they saw action, they are not to be considered. Enough already with the paltry few over the planes that actually did 90 percent of the fighting.
MC200, MC202 and Fiat G50 were the workhorses of the Italian Air Force. We already have one in AH.
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What is the difference between the F2A, and the Brewster Model 239?
It seems the Finnish Model 239 Buffalo had a bit more success than the USN or RAF F2A Buffalos. Was it just the lack of the heavy gear needed to operate from CV's that made the 239 a better Brewster?
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Originally posted by Ball
(http://www.nationalflaggen.de/shop/catalog/images/finland.gif)
(http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/gdes/images/Brewster.jpg)
:aok
Wmaker says hello!
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Originally posted by SASMOX
:aok
Wmaker says hello!
Sorta sad to see two American made fighters trying to kill each other.
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Hi Wmaker :)
Originally posted by SirLoin
Sorta sad to see two American made fighters trying to kill each other.
You can cheer up, because that is a Hurricane ;)
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Too late to say no, i already voted for it. :aok
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Sorta sad to see you mistake a Hurricane for an American fighter. Of course being from Canada, I can see where both cultures may blend together for you.;)
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Originally posted by Shifty
What is the difference between the F2A, and the Brewster Model 239?
It seems the Finnish Model 239 Buffalo had a bit more success than the USN or RAF F2A Buffalos. Was it just the lack of the heavy gear needed to operate from CV's that made the 239 a better Brewster?
In the technical point of view, F2A and 239 were basically the same. 239 was just slightly modified.
The biggest difference between different reputations of Brewsters in USA and Finland was propably the training of pilots and the basic understanding of capabilities of that type.
US Pilots were mostly Navy pilots which excpected Brewsters to be some kind of an air superiority fighter...Brewster wasīnt certainly that!
Finnish pilots were trained for "swarming" tactics, the only possible way to organize some kind of a defence against overwhelming enemy... In that job Brewster did an excellent career!!!
In skillful hands, Brewster was an brilliant tool giving really hard opponent to almost all russian fighters in the skies.
The kill/death/damage ratio of FAF against russians speaks for itself:aok
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Does the 1939 Brewster Buffalo --- first monoplane fighter aircraft used by the United States Navy --- even NEED a thread to dis it in the online vote?
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B25 was used more by WAY more people involved in war. It deserves to be in game .
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Originally posted by Ball
...
(http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/gdes/images/Brewster.jpg)
Rookie Russian pilot letting that beast behind his Hurri Mk1 ;)
At least it didn't happen too much in the Karelia scenario :D
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bufalo was replaced by the f4f4,,,nuff said, its crud
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Originally posted by Turbo76
B25 was used more by WAY more people involved in war. It deserves to be in game .
(http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/happy0007.gif) (http://www.thesmilies.com)
By THAT bit of logic:
16 Bell P-39 Airacobra/P-63 Kingcobra 12,897 built, USA, Russia Single-engined fighter & fighter-bomber
19 Vultee BT-17/19 Valiant 11,525 built, USA Single-engined trainer
20 Petlyakov Pe-2 11,427 built, USSR Twin-engined light bomber
22 Vickers Wellington 11,302 built, Great Britain Twin-engined strategic bomber & patrol aircraft
24 Avro Anson 10,302 built, Great Britain, Canada Twin-engined trainer & light transport
27 North American B-25 Mitchell 9,816 built, USA Twin-engined medium bomber
Settled then, the P-39 deserves it the mostest, the Pe-2 comes in at a close second mostest deserving. The Vickers Wellington deserves to be ON the list most-er than the Mitchell. Heck, so do some trainer planes.
It's a game. It's a popular vote. The B-25 is simply between the B-26 and B-24. The Brewster Buffalo is one wing away from being a Stearman trainer. Definiately other planes on the list that would be more FUN that either of these choices.
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This is certainly not any kind of an offensive against all-american plane fans...
This is just an honest "thinkabout" concerning the scenarios and arenas in AH.
Please, ask Yourself quite honest...What is the added value, that another 2-engined american attack-bomber could bring to this game?
Donīt we have A20? Donīt we have P-38? Donīt we have B-26? And many of them in different versions, even...
A-26 was a "Ferrari of light bombers of itīs era.." but....it appeared very late.
Wouldnīt it be nice to see some new faces? Wouldnīt it be nice to extend the understanding of European arenas of WWII in those years which USA didnīt participate yet?
Adoring the last 2-3 years only of WWII doesnīt make justice to the military avation of the world at those days...
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Settled then, the P-39 deserves it the mostest, the Pe-2 comes in at a close second mostest deserving. The Vickers Wellington deserves to be ON the list most-er than the Mitchell. Heck, so do some trainer planes.
Nope..
Originally posted by Turbo76
B25 was used more by WAY more people involved in war. It deserves to be in game .
Notice "used more by WAY more people involved in war.".
Therefore, the bombers are multicrewed = more people!
The Anson was a flying classroom, and trained a huge number of people.
:t
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no i dont think so, buffalo was junk, puny guns, overloaded, and overmatched especialy in MA.....give it the big thumbs down.
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LOL at your sig Stephen.
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Originally posted by Zuum
Adoring the last 2 years only of WWII doesnīt make justice to the military avation of the world at those days...
Doesn't do all those other plane justice, but it DOES recognize that 9/10ths of all logged in players hang out in the two LW arenas.
It recognizes that the majority of pilots gravitate toward the ENY 5 planes in those LW arenas.
And forum discussions probably will be moot, since it is a popular vote in the game interface with no plane details offered to players that are not familiar with those planes being listed. It will come down to a popular vote based on name recognition.
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Originally posted by Ball
Hi Wmaker :)
Hello Karvapallo!
This one drunk Wmaker saying hello from Sasmox' place!
Weeeee! Finnish AH-meeting will start tomorrow!
cya tomorrow in the skies of Aces High if I'm in condition to fly. :p
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LOL if i am home tomorrow night i may have to make a new account with the name Karvapallo and fly with you guys. :D
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Nice 2 C U with handle "Karvapallo":D
WTG Furball!!!!
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Do we need to tell people not to vote for a certain plane? I mean, if you want a certain plane I can see you posting its merits... But it seems we have entered the area of, "I won't fly it... so nobody should be able to."
I voted for the Brewster because it's the plane I would most like to see.
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How the heck does Don't Vote for Buffalo rate over 42 replies?
(http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/confused0050.gif) (http://www.thesmilies.com)
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So many folks rushing to correct him, I guess.
EDIT: That's not a dig, that's an honest guess as to why.
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Bodhi,check ur pm's plz.
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"How the heck does Don't Vote for Buffalo rate over 42 replies?"
As opposed to the "I Pwned you BiSh noob!!! I wasnt Hoing I was front quarter wooT Im de bomb Z rule!!!" threads? only to be locked by Skuzzy at 150 replies?
:lol
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I must say, if we consider production number first, it would be always American planes. Maybe you guys just want to fly them,but I think that is not good to this game.
The better way I wonder is when we add an alliance aircraft,we should try to add another one for Axis.
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Originally posted by Shifty
What is the difference between the F2A, and the Brewster Model 239?
It seems the Finnish Model 239 Buffalo had a bit more success than the USN or RAF F2A Buffalos. Was it just the lack of the heavy gear needed to operate from CV's that made the 239 a better Brewster?
Pretty accurate assesment there Shifty. The 239 did not have the heavy aresting gear, heavy pilot armor, heavy long-range radio, and sea survival equipment that the Navalised F2A had. With the F2A-2 they added more armor and equipment and loaded down the airframe. Consequently the performance suffered greatly. They redesigned it, they put another more powerful engine in the F2A-3, but again loaded more equipment into it.
The designers tried to improve the performance by increasing the engines power output, but increasingly negated the power gains by adding equipment that hurt performance.
The 239 had a performance just a little worse than a Japanese Zero. The turning radius was a few feet greater in the 239, and the Zero was faster, and could climb faster, but like all American planes the Brewster could dive better than the Zero, and take more punnishment.
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yep, 15 out of 25 were downed over midway, but we musn't forget that the planes don't fly themselves. Most of those pilots were inexperienced with a portion of flying time that there counterparts, the japense (many of them aces) had. so dont let that keep you from voting for it.
But, it only had 3 50 cals, 1 in the nose and one in each wing and a 30 cal in the nose.
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As I pointed put in another thread, your basing its entire career on a single air combat that took place on June 4th 1942, where 19 F2As and 7 F4Fs intercepted 118 IJN a/c over Midway island, 36 of them A6M2s. None of the USMC pilots had ever flown in combat. So its a very slanted view. You could point out other a/c that had bad days too, that are much more famous.
And according to the Japanese, they put up a tough fight.
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Um, then let the fins make their own game - and host it on their turf, and create a game totally around their war machines?
It's like making a game about American Idol, then having people sing in German?
Have we gone this PC in the US today. Jesus if socialism isn't enough on our turf, why are we trying to bend it to apply toward 'foreigners'??
*flame away libs!*
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:rofl
-C+
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I smell fear.....fear of losing vote for Brewster!
:t :t :t
Crawl back under the rock and shiver, weīre coming! (and this is not a line from xxx movie..)
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Brewster Buffalo. First monoplane used by USN. One wing away from being a Stearman.
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Say YES to Brewster!
(http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/bw384/slides/P1170560.JPG)
On left: Mr. Aarno Siro, alongside a model of the Brewster fighter he flew in the summer battles of 1944.
This particular plane, BW-384, is credited with 18 Soviet planes shot down.
More photos of BW-384 model, revealed only last week, here:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/photoreports/bw384/
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By the way, do not forget that not just US and Finland operated Brewsters... Other users were Belgium, Holland, Great Britain and Australia.
Commonwealth
The Commonwealth squadrons in Asia claimed a 2:1 kill ratio against the Japanese. Three Commonwealth pilots became aces on the Buffalo; the highest scoring of them, Geoff Fisken finished as the highest scoring Commonwealth pilot in the Pacific Theatre.
Netherlands East Indies
The ML-KNIL (Militaire Luchtvaart van het Koninklijk Nederlands-Indisch Leger: Military Aviation of the Royal Netherlands-Indies Army) had ordered 144 Brewster B-339C and 339D models, the former with used engines supplied by the Dutch and the latter with new and more powerful engines that Brewster purchased from Wright. Only 71 had arrived in the Netherlands East Indies by the time war began, and not all were in service. Some served briefly at Singapore before being withdrawn for the defense of Java.
As the Dutch Buffaloes were lighter than the F2A-3 used by the US, they were able to successfully dogfight the Japanese Nakajima Oscar fighter, although it was still out-turned by the Mitsubitshi Zero. Apart from their role as fighters, they were also used as dive bombers against Japanese troopships. Though reinforced by the Commonwealth Buffaloes retreating from Malaya, the Dutch squadrons were unable to stem the superiority of Japanese forces at ground level, and they flew their last mission on 7 March. Altogether 17 Dutch pilots were killed, 30 Buffaloes were shot down, 15 were destroyed on the ground, and several were lost to misadventure. in return, Dutch pilots claimed 55 enemy aircraft destroyed. In a major engagement on 19 February 1942, eight Dutch Brewsters intercepted a formation of about 35 Japanese bombers, which had an escort of about 20 Zeroes. The Dutch pilots destroyed 11 Japanese planes and lost four Buffaloes.
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And what other plane can claim such a beautiful nickname as "Sky Pearl"...
As the Finnish Brewster pilots still affectinally call it "The Pearl of the Northnern Skies"...
Vote sensible. Vote for a great piece of aviation history. Vote for Brewster!
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Originally posted by Iron_Cross
Pretty accurate assesment there Shifty. The 239 did not have the heavy aresting gear, heavy pilot armor, heavy long-range radio, and sea survival equipment that the Navalised F2A had. With the F2A-2 they added more armor and equipment and loaded down the airframe. Consequently the performance suffered greatly. They redesigned it, they put another more powerful engine in the F2A-3, but again loaded more equipment into it.
The designers tried to improve the performance by increasing the engines power output, but increasingly negated the power gains by adding equipment that hurt performance.
The 239 had a performance just a little worse than a Japanese Zero. The turning radius was a few feet greater in the 239, and the Zero was faster, and could climb faster, but like all American planes the Brewster could dive better than the Zero, and take more punnishment.
Thanks Iron Cross.:aok
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Its big, ugly and a glorified F4F...... NO!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Are you ever gonna stop with these "say NO" threads? Let people vote on whatever plane they wish.
Or we could just add a "say NO" thread to every one of the new planes and give different reasons.
How about NO to a Me410, A26 and B25 as we have alot of LW and US planes already? A specially big NO to the B25 as we have enough US bombers already.
:furious
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Say no to Bodhi !!! No Bodhi in Aces High !!! ;)
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(http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/kuvat/ww2history-pokela2.jpg)
Fighter ace Jussi Huotari: The Brewster was quite nice and pleasant to fly. Everyone usually praised it,it was a gentleman's aircraft. Wide cockpit for instance.
Antti Tani & Jussi Huotari: two aces telling about their experiences with Morane-Saulnier 406s, Me 109s and of course - the Brewster:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-TaniHuotariEnglish.html
(http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/kuvat/WW2History-tanihuotari04t.jpg)
Can you rembember which were the ranges used by Brewster pilots, or any examples ?
Jussi Huotari: Nearest in my mind is the case when I had to fire at an angle of 90 degrees. You had to apply plenty of deflection, shoot far ahead of the target. Then only one gun fired but the tracers gave me an indication how to aim. When shooting from an angle of 90 degrees you have to take a lot of deflection.
What was the general range of firing ?
Jussi Huotari: For the Brewster it was about two hundred fifty
Antti Tani: Shooting from a too short range your burst passed the side of the target.
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Originally posted by Grendel
By the way, do not forget that not just US and Finland operated Brewsters... Other users were Belgium, Holland, Great Britain and Australia.
Commonwealth
The Commonwealth squadrons in Asia claimed a 2:1 kill ratio against the Japanese. Three Commonwealth pilots became aces on the Buffalo; the highest scoring of them, Geoff Fisken finished as the highest scoring Commonwealth pilot in the Pacific Theatre.
Netherlands East Indies
The ML-KNIL (Militaire Luchtvaart van het Koninklijk Nederlands-Indisch Leger: Military Aviation of the Royal Netherlands-Indies Army) had ordered 144 Brewster B-339C and 339D models, the former with used engines supplied by the Dutch and the latter with new and more powerful engines that Brewster purchased from Wright. Only 71 had arrived in the Netherlands East Indies by the time war began, and not all were in service. Some served briefly at Singapore before being withdrawn for the defense of Java.
As the Dutch Buffaloes were lighter than the F2A-3 used by the US, they were able to successfully dogfight the Japanese Nakajima Oscar fighter, although it was still out-turned by the Mitsubitshi Zero. Apart from their role as fighters, they were also used as dive bombers against Japanese troopships. Though reinforced by the Commonwealth Buffaloes retreating from Malaya, the Dutch squadrons were unable to stem the superiority of Japanese forces at ground level, and they flew their last mission on 7 March. Altogether 17 Dutch pilots were killed, 30 Buffaloes were shot down, 15 were destroyed on the ground, and several were lost to misadventure. in return, Dutch pilots claimed 55 enemy aircraft destroyed. In a major engagement on 19 February 1942, eight Dutch Brewsters intercepted a formation of about 35 Japanese bombers, which had an escort of about 20 Zeroes. The Dutch pilots destroyed 11 Japanese planes and lost four Buffaloes.
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And what other plane can claim such a beautiful nickname as "Sky Pearl"...
As the Finnish Brewster pilots still affectinally call it "The Pearl of the Northnern Skies"...
Vote sensible. Vote for a great piece of aviation history. Vote for Brewster!
Good point. I know planes like the Buffalo are not going to appeal much to the guys who only fly in the regular arenas. That's understandable, however so many of these older warbirds would give Special Events and the AVA some fantastic tools for different scenarios.
Yes I fly in the regular arenas, but I live for the Special Events.:aok
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Originally posted by Sincraft
Um, then let the fins make their own game - and host it on their turf, and create a game totally around their war machines?
It's like making a game about American Idol, then having people sing in German?
Have we gone this PC in the US today. Jesus if socialism isn't enough on our turf, why are we trying to bend it to apply toward 'foreigners'??
*flame away libs!*
Perhaps you can make your own game and host it at your house. Then you can have it your way. Why fly in somebody else's game.
You are just as "foreign" at flying WWII aircraft as is most people in the world. I would venture that the "foreigners" are better at pushing pixel aircraft around the simulated skies than you are.
There are people all over the world who like WWII aircraft. In all walks of life. The reality is that all aircraft weren't American.
If American Idol is your yardstick of all that is great with the world, perhaps you should be watching it.
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I think the 239 didnt have as much armor or self sealing fuel tanks, making it much lighter, and the benifits of being lighter. The F2a being an american use model had all the pre mentioned, and heavyness that goes with that= a lower performance plane overall. Also I think the model 239 had 30 cal mgs where the F2a had at least 1 50 cal......
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Originally posted by teufl
I think the 239 didnt have as much armor or self sealing fuel tanks, making it much lighter, and the benifits of being lighter. The F2a being an american use model had all the pre mentioned, and heavyness that goes with that= a lower performance plane overall. Also I think the model 239 had 30 cal mgs where the F2a had at least 1 50 cal......
Wrong on all counts.
It had pilot armor and other normal armour. Self sealing tanks. Four .50 machineguns. Great visibility and space to take all your luggage in the fuselage from field to field. Everything you a pilot needs ;-)
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Ahhh yes! Excellent Idea!
NO BODHI! :D
(just kiddin' of course)
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Originally posted by Sincraft
Um, then let the fins make their own game - and host it on their turf, and create a game totally around their war machines?
It's like making a game about American Idol, then having people sing in German?
Have we gone this PC in the US today. Jesus if socialism isn't enough on our turf, why are we trying to bend it to apply toward 'foreigners'??
*flame away libs!*
I'm not liberal, and I'm far from PC. This isn't Finland vs the USA . This is just people getting a chance to vote for what aircraft they'd like to see added to the sim. I don't know how you could call the opportunity to vote for something socialism. Plus what you call foreigners, the owner of this sim calls customers. :aok
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Not necessarily wrong on all accounts, but yes the Fins added seat armor and changed the 30 caliber to 50. I was actaully talking about FOB(fresh off the boat) no matter its gone, maybe next time guys!:aok
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BuNcH O Ferigeners! thEy TaKN ovbr my fliHt SIm Lettmm git theR OWN w00T!!!
;)