Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Bodhi on March 28, 2007, 12:52:58 PM
-
148 G.55 were delivered to the ANR, 15 more were destroyed by US bombing raids and, when the factory was captured, 37 more exemplars were ready, while 73 were still on the production line, at various degree of completion.
148 total aircraft... come on, this is a waste of time for HTC to be considering. There are far more variants that need representation than a very limited hardly standardised fighter!
-
G.55 thread (already on this forum, see it there?) (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=201489)
Before you go posting ignorantly as such, please see the G.55 thread. There's quite a bit of information in there.
Depending on your source, the numbers go from minimum 150 or so to maximum 250 or so. Probably around 200 or so. It, along with C2s, was the main front line fighter for Italy after 1943. Enough were in use to represent a sizable % of the entire IT fleet.
If about 250 C205s were made, and about 200 G.55s were made, and 1500 C202s were in use since 1941, the G.55 made up almost 50% of the modern 1943 fighters, and made up over 10% of the total 1900 "modern" fighters (1500 c202s, 250 c205s, 200 g.55s). Keep in mind the IT air force as a whole rarely boasted over 2500 aircraft max, and 1700 of these were retired Cr.42s, turned to trainers in 1942/43 after a long career of obsolescence.
-
LOL no :D
-
Even with 250 aircraft, it is a waste of time. (and if you care to look at the numbers cited they add up to aabout 250 aircraft)
As for calling me ignorant, I have a much better tendency to back up my statements with facts than your assumptions. So tread lightly.
-
I agree 10000000000000000%.
Say NO to the eyetalians.
-
"tread lightly" might be good advice for all concerned. You included.
Bodhi, I've backed all of this up in the other thread (link in previous post). You can't compare 200 as "not important" based on Soviet production numbers, or German production numbers, or US production numbers, where they turned out more in 1 day than the entire ITs did in the war.
In the context of IT production numbers, the C.205 and G.55 were the most important fighters being produced in 1943 and later. The G.55 was the better of the two, and was kept in production after the Italian surrender, probably the only aircraft to be kept in production.
It wasn't "too late", arriving in 1943. It was really "too little" because it was over 10% of the post-1941 fighters, and 50% of the 1943 fighters in service, but that's only in Italy. Half the top-of-the-line fighters produced were G.55s. Compare the 190A8 with the 109G-14. Both very important. Similar comparison to C205 and G55, IMO.
You can go on posting "bashing" threads for the planes you don't want folks to vote on. Nobody's going to stop you (unless maybe Skuzzy?). Just don't blow the claim in that post out of proportion too much. I'll confine my posts to the real thread, with all of the information posted (link in previous reply).
-
Originally posted by Krusty
"tread lightly" might be good advice for all concerned. You included.
You can go on posting "bashing" threads for the planes you don't want folks to vote on. Nobody's going to stop you (unless maybe Skuzzy?). Just don't blow the claim in that post out of proportion too much. I'll confine my posts to the real thread, with all of the information posted (link in previous reply).
I am not bashing, instead, you chose to bash with your ignorance comment. I consider the G.55 to be an insignificant part of the war especially when there are already two Italian aircraft in game (one of which amounted to around 75% of the total serving with the Italians), There are many other aircraft that proved a far more significant contribution to the war effort from multiple sides that should be represented before the side show of the G.55 is considered.
-
Bodhi... didnt you realise: -
Originally posted by humble
Actually the G55 was the single most important fighter of the entire war....
Quoted for education...
Originally posted by Ball
What if? the Fiat G.55 made a huge impact.
Here it is raising the flag over the Reichstag in 1945: -
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/71_1174827510_reichstag.jpg)
When the USAF wanted to test the F-22, in a little known test they flew a squadron of them against a Fiat G.55. I have managed to secure the test film from this amazing event: -
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/71_1174827554_fiat22.gif)
Also, many things have been heavily influenced by the design of the Fiat G.55, i think you will agree that the similarities between these and the Fiat are incredible - it is almost impossible to tell them apart: -
(http://www.boeing.com/commercial/747family/images/747-400F_topshot_375.jpg)
(http://dept.kent.edu/afrotc/Visitors/Multimedia/Photos/B-2%20Over%20Clouds2800.jpg)
(http://www.puzzlehouse.com/images/webpage/stonehenge.jpeg)
-
LOL furbs
-
lol -.- give teh bks another spit
-
Originally posted by Buvian
lol -.- give teh bks another spit
lol, nope that'd be for Lev.
I'd prefer to see an F6F-3 or SB2C but that is not a choice now is it.
Although I'd rather not see the G.55 because of it's relatively small part of the war.
-
Originally posted by Buvian
lol -.- give teh bks another spit
Like this one : http://doiamuseyou.typepad.co.uk/do_i_amuse_you/images/spitfire_9_2.jpg
?
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
lol, nope that'd be for Lev.
I'd prefer to see an F6F-3 or SB2C but that is not a choice now is it.
Although I'd rather not see the G.55 because of it's relatively small part of the war.
Last time i checked this was a world war two flight sim. So that includes any and all world war two planes. Last four years i've been here HTC has tried to avoid adding planes that would cause conflicts like this. IMHO i think its time for a change.
-
Originally posted by Krusty
Before you go posting ignorantly as such, please see the G.55 thread. There's quite a bit of information in there.
Am I the only one that sees the irony?
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Am I the only one that sees the irony?
ack-ack
Exactly... why would I post in a thread supporting an aircraft if I was against it....
Guess I am just ignorant...
-
Am I the only one that sees the irony?
Ooooo Krusty got pwnd
-
Originally posted by VWE
Ooooo Krusty got pwnd
Indeed
-
hardly
-
Hate to hijack back to the topic....(is that an "unhijack'? Or, "two hijacks make a whole"? Or "Three lefts make a right"? NM)
The G.55, like many others, would be nice...but what does it add to the game? As a 1943 plane, it would fit best in the MW; in the LW, would it function all that differently from the 190A's?
I'm afraid it would be a niche ride, useful only for a few fans. Same problem faced by most other options, IMHO.
In contrast, the P39 and B25 have development and variant history that covers most of the war. The Yak would contend for uber plane, and might generate its own "perk the threads. So, even though it would be LW only its entertainment value would serve AH'ers everywhere.
-
The axis need an A/C to compete in CT,the G55 would do nicely,speed at alt,handles reasonably well. If ya think it wasnt a "real player" in WW2 then vote for the ME410..... oppps I guess I just Hijacked this thread.:O
:furious :furious :furious The axis will be cannon fodder,err 50 cal fodder,cuz they just don't have anything to compete at high alt.:furious :furious :furious
-
Originally posted by morfiend
The axis need an A/C to compete in CT,the G55 would do nicely,speed at alt,handles reasonably well. If ya think it wasnt a "real player" in WW2 then vote for the ME410..... oppps I guess I just Hijacked this thread.:O
:furious :furious :furious The axis will be cannon fodder,err 50 cal fodder,cuz they just don't have anything to compete at high alt.:furious :furious :furious
But Morfiend, the G55 is irrelevant to CT. Combat Tour is set to be Eighth AF vs Luftwaffe. The Italian front just isnt on the radar screen for CT.
And in the 8th vs LW battles, the 109s and 190s caused plenty of trouble on their own.
-
The real problem is, Morfiend, that hardly anyone in the MA's fly's any of these aircraft in their designed envelope(15-30k) They try to Furball with them under 10k.
Try flying the Dora, or the 109K4, or the Ta152 with some alt, and you'll see completely different planes.
-
I have already placed my vote, but i am curious to know what plane you are advocating for and why bodhi. If you have stated in another thread then redirect me to it and ill read it there.
I do agree with your argument that based on numbers it was relatively insignificant, but so was the C.205 for that matter since it had relatively similar numbers. P39 and B25 would be good additions to the game. P39 adds another fighter to a well represented American side and the B25 adds another bomber to again, a well represented American side. Your argument against the G.55 could be used against the B239, as far as numbers are concerned. So what should we vote for and why?
lwcody
-
Vote for what you want to see.
I said no on the Brewster and the G.55. I think they add very little to the game aspect, and more importantly, the long term goal of CT.
I have yet to decide what I would rather see, as there are many aircraft represented that could add a lot to an already deficient set.
I could argue for the He-111, as it is needed for the historical side of several different scenarios played in here.
I could argue for any of the Japanese fighters, as they are extremely deficient, and besides filling out many possible scenarios in the PTO several are would be players in the MA.
I could argue for the P-39 as it also would fill scenarios across the board owing to it's uses as a lend lease aircraft as well. It might even see use in the MA.
I could argue for the Yak 3 as it will fill many Eastern Front scenairos as well as be an MA fighter.
I could argue for the Russian Bombers as they are woefully under represented and again fill scenario as well as limited MA usefulness.
I could argue for the B-25 as it was so widespread and used by British, Russians, Australians, and US. It's usefulness in scenarios and CT would be more than enough. It's variants might also see use in the MA in one way or another.
I could argue for the A-26 as again it was widely used and would see scenario usage and CT would warrant it, plus it would be used in the MA for sure.
The Me410 could be used especially in CT and scenarios. I am unsure about it's place in the MA though.
All in all, I really do not know what I will vote for. I am still at work, (and am working on a Corsair right now) and no blue planes are being suggested for vote, so thats a quandry. In the end though, I will probably lean towards the He-111 or another allied bomber, Russian or US, just not sure. Will see tonight.
-
The IAR series (80&81) had more of an impact than the G.55.
-
And we could use the I.A.R. on a Ploesti scenario, too.
-
It just seems silly to me that the an aircraft that was so limited in production, and barely saw service in a hardly standardised production configration should be considered.
Then again, according to our resident know-it-all, it is not total numbers produced, it is the percentage of the force that counts.
Well hell, 10% of 10 is still 1... :rolleyes:
By that reasoning, the F4u which is less than 2% of total aircraft produced by the US during WW2, it really should not count...
-
Thats funny, we lost the gun pod G-10 and now there is a "no G.55 petition". Fear of something, on the axis side, able to kick US bomber's arse at 25-30K? :)
-
HE-111 makes sense.
-
Originally posted by gatt
Thats funny, we lost the gun pod G-10 and now there is a "no G.55 petition". Fear of something, on the axis side, able to kick US bomber's arse at 25-30K? :)
It is not that, it seems that the Americans want more US bombers for you to shoot down.
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
Even with 250 aircraft, it is a waste of time. (and if you care to look at the numbers cited they add up to aabout 250 aircraft)
As for calling me ignorant, I have a much better tendency to back up my statements with facts than your assumptions. So tread lightly.
What makes the G.55 both relevent and interesting is the fact that the luftwaffe actually recommended and endorsed switching the 109 production lines to the G.55 in 2/1943. So the plane is more important then its raw numbers might suggest. It also happens to be a plane that would see significant use in the MA....I'd guess it will move handily into the top 5...
-
The Luftwaffe made many horrendous decisions on aircraft production during the war.
Heck, didnt they agree to produce thousands of He-162's before even test flying it?
Sorry but your argument for bringing a plane to AH cannot really rely on the LW recommending to produce it over the 109 - therefore it is important, interesting and should be added.
-
Originally posted by humble
What makes the G.55 both relevent and interesting is the fact that the luftwaffe actually recommended and endorsed switching the 109 production lines to the G.55 in 2/1943. So the plane is more important then its raw numbers might suggest. It also happens to be a plane that would see significant use in the MA....I'd guess it will move handily into the top 5...
What I find amazing is that the aircraft saw 148 produced and delivered. If was such an uber plane, it would have been adopted by the German's no matter what. It wasn't.
-
perhaps it is up to the vote simply because only 2 Italian planes are represented.
the other countries planes up to vote are better represented.
as for the Finnish planes, did they even build any of their own? or bought from other countries? I'm not sure of this. only reason I ask.
well anyway G.55 got my vote for the reason of only 2 planes availible from Italy.
-
Originally posted by Ball
Anti-Germanic/Anti-Axis comments for the entire life of his BBS "career"
I think perhaps he just doesn't understand the possibility that an "underdog" may have come up with some good stuff that was comparable to, even superior to allied planes. It doesn't matter it didn't reach the production levels of the unhindered Americas, it just "sucks" becaue it wasn't invented by the allies.
-
It was insignificant.
-
Originally posted by JB73
I think perhaps he just doesn't understand the possibility that an "underdog" may have come up with some good stuff that was comparable to, even superior to allied planes. It doesn't matter it didn't reach the production levels of the unhindered Americas, it just "sucks" becaue it wasn't invented by the allies.
Have you not been reading what i have been posting? Dont accuse me of the anti axis BS for my "career".
I just do not agree with the G.55 being added as i feel there are far more significant types to be added - i was pointing out that the CR.42 would be a far more significant Italian aircraft to add.
-
CR.42 was as significant as the 1939 Tutor was to the RAF.
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
The IAR series (80&81) had more of an impact than the G.55.
Anything had more impact than the G.55 It was a VERY late war fighter. Produced in very limited numbers.
But, according to reports, it flew better than most German planes. Think of it as a top shelf Bf 109.
It also adds another Italian plane to the plane set.
3x20 mm MG 151/20 cannons, one engine-mounted (250 rounds) and two wing-mounted (200 rounds each), 2x12.7 mm Breda-SAFAT machine guns in the engine cowling (300 rounds each), Provision for two 160 kg (353 lb) bombs on underwing racks. Makes for a nice bomber interceptor, with possibly a ground attack role as far as the game is concerned.
The Fiat G.55 was my second choice. Went A-26 Invader, buff drivers need a second perk ride in this game.
-
So, second half of 1943 is "VERY late"?
It's not quite like the 109K, it doesn't have the raw horsepower. It does, however, have larger wings for better turning and more stability, which comes in handy up at 25k.
-
Second half of 1943 is "very late" when its country of origin was out of the war on August 9th of that year...
-
Treize, IT fighters (including the G.55) fought into late 1944, and after that point they fought on with late-model 109s (we used to have a couple of ANR skins, and somebody made a new one recently).
-
Hmmm... well, Bodhi, let me see...
Originally posted by Bodhi
Vote for what you want to see.
I said no on the Brewster and the G.55. I think they add very little to the game aspect, and more importantly, the long term goal of CT.
I have yet to decide what I would rather see, as there are many aircraft represented that could add a lot to an already deficient set.
I could argue for the He-111, as it is needed for the historical side of several different scenarios played in here.
I could argue for any of the Japanese fighters, as they are extremely deficient, and besides filling out many possible scenarios in the PTO several are would be players in the MA.
I could argue for the P-39 as it also would fill scenarios across the board owing to it's uses as a lend lease aircraft as well. It might even see use in the MA.
I could argue for the Yak 3 as it will fill many Eastern Front scenairos as well as be an MA fighter.
I could argue for the Russian Bombers as they are woefully under represented and again fill scenario as well as limited MA usefulness.
I could argue for the B-25 as it was so widespread and used by British, Russians, Australians, and US. It's usefulness in scenarios and CT would be more than enough. It's variants might also see use in the MA in one way or another.
I could argue for the A-26 as again it was widely used and would see scenario usage and CT would warrant it, plus it would be used in the MA for sure.
The Me410 could be used especially in CT and scenarios. I am unsure about it's place in the MA though.
All in all, I really do not know what I will vote for. I am still at work, (and am working on a Corsair right now) and no blue planes are being suggested for vote, so thats a quandry. In the end though, I will probably lean towards the He-111 or another allied bomber, Russian or US, just not sure. Will see tonight.
So, we should add to AH something that adds to the game aspect and, in the long term to CT....
Well, it all depends on what you think is "the game aspect".... reading through your above words, it seems that we need plane that could be used widely in scenarios and can see some use in the MA... well, IMO, MAs are still the most important part of the game. There you find most of the players, 24/7, there you'll find most of the fights (like them or not).
So, I'd say that we have to add to the game a plane that can add something to the MAs, in first place, to CT, then and, in the end, in AvA or SEA. Like it or not, I'm afraid this is the order in which you have to list them.
Then, you have not to look at production numbers, but at flying characteristics of the planes: IMO, G.55, Yak3, Ki44, maybe P39 and Me410 are the planes that could add to "the game aspect".
Regarding my choice, it has good flying characteristics, good armament and would be a fearsome opponent in MA (not only in MW, even in LW)... and in CT perspective, if the first tour will be the 8th AF against Germany, isn't it likely that the second one will be the 15th AF against Germany and Italy? Then the Centauro would be really useful...
Bottom word: I think that historical reasons should (and will) have less impact on the voting, while the characteristic of the plane should (and will) be the true criterion by which the winner should (will) be elected.
Just my 2 cents, of course.
One last thing, regarding German interest for the G.55: check the first link in my signature, you'll find why it didn't went in production in Germany.
-
"Those Italian pilots from the Regia Aeronautia who went North to fly for the Luftwaffe were called the Aeronautica Nazionale Republicana (ANR). While trying to maintain a separate identity from the Luftwaffe, they quickly adopted the German ways of doing things. The ANR was made up primarily of three fighter groups with three squadrons each (approximately 200 pilots). The ANR's primary mission was to repel attacks of medium and heavy bombers of the 12th and 15th Air Forces. Since many industrial targets in Northern Italian cities were being attacked regularly after September 1943 by bombers of the USAAF and the RAF, the bulk of the activities of the ANR were mainly defensive in nature. Gradually the Germans began to equip the ANR with Messerschmitt Bf-109s to replace the inferior Italian-manufactured planes. In August of 1944, the Germans, disappointed over the performance of the ANR, attempted to officially disband the organization and take over their equipment and personnel. Some ANR pilots staged an armed rebellion and set fire to their planes rather than surrender them to the Luftwaffe. Faced with this unexpected reaction, the Germans backed off, reassessed their position, rescinded the order, and sent a new Luftwaffe commander to Italy. The Germans and the Italians didn't get along particularly well before the attempted "coup" and the relationship did not improve afterwards. The Italians never shared the Germans' strong feelings about their cause and their intensity for organizing and managing. On the other hand, the Germans viewed the Italians as not particularly motivated pilots, with marginal skills and inferior equipment, and, from whom minimal results could be expected. Predictably, the ANR was plagued by chronic fuel and spare parts shortages with the bombing of aircraft factories and railways in Northern Italy. The ANR ceased to function at all in early 1945. "
And exactly what massive proportion of the aircraft for those 200 well equipped and highly motivated supermen were G.55s?
-
Tedrbr, Treize, you can't see that the G.55 is a LATE war plane.... Gabrielli started working on it in 1941, it made his first flight on April 30, 1942.
And, Treize, sorry, Italy didn't end its partecipation to WWII with the Armistice... we went on, split in two, on both sides, and with a civil war going on...
EDIT: Treize, where did you take that quotation from? It would be a good habit to always quote your sources... it seems to me like a lot of nonsense... and really offensive....
-
Originally posted by Gianlupo
So, I'd say that we have to add to the game a plane that can add something to the MAs, in first place, to CT, then and, in the end, in AvA or SEA. Like it or not, I'm afraid this is the order in which you have to list them.
I think you are entirely incorrect in this. CT isn't finished, isn't really close to release, and I haven't yet seen any official mention of featuring anything other than late ETO. Given that, and the fact that it hasn't made HT a penny yet, I'd have to say that the order would be MAs primarily, then Spec Events, then AvA. CT doesn't even make the list of priorities currently.
-
Sorry Lupo, no anti-Italian sentiment is meant, just the justification for the plane by saying that the ANR used it. It was an extremely limited run aircraft, hardly used at all, and doesn't really offer anything the C.205 can't already do.
I would kill to get the IAR in game, but I've already resigned myself to the fact that it'll never happen. We already have enough low-number, limited impact planes in the game that almost never see use (like the C.202 and C.205...), just can't justify devoting development time to a future hangar queen that only 5 people will fly more than once or twice a tour.
Got the quote from http://www.ww2wings.com
-
Originally posted by Hub
I think you are entirely incorrect in this. CT isn't finished, isn't really close to release, and I haven't yet seen any official mention of featuring anything other than late ETO. Given that, and the fact that it hasn't made HT a penny yet, I'd have to say that the order would be MAs primarily, then Spec Events, then AvA. CT doesn't even make the list of priorities currently.
Ok, I may even be wrong, but partially, not entirely... the core of the reasoning is that MA is still the main parameter to which you have to relate any new plane added to the game... and that means first of all flying characteristics, then history. So, even with your correction (IF they are valid), my reasoning works the same: I was just using Bodhi's reasoning against him. Don't forget I studied to become a lawyer, after all.... :D
And, btw, late ETO means 15th AF and Italy, too....
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
What I find amazing is that the aircraft saw 148 produced and delivered. If was such an uber plane, it would have been adopted by the German's no matter what. It wasn't.
I find the total numbers is 274. I don't think the produciton number is problem, the f4u-1c only 175 or 200. N1K2J was 400.
-
Every time I take off in the MA there's a C2 somewhere nearby taking off as well. Almost every fight I go into has at least 1 C2 in the mix, if not more.
C202s were *the* main fighter after they were introduced. With 1500 produced, it outnumbered both the G.50 and C.200 put together (which were its predecssors). Hardly a "limited run" production, considering it serves so well in scenarios including Malta, Italy, North Africa, and.... what the heck was the FSO before this last one? I don't recall much, just that it was in there as well.
Granted I don't see C202s in the MA much, but they see a lot of scenario use. The reverse is true of the 205. Little scenario use, but I see it in the MA every day.
The G.55 wouldn't just be used by "5" people. Every person that flies a C205 or C202 is going to fly it regularly, IMO.
-
Thank Cod there's not a large French contingent in AH!!
Lord man. They made some butt ugly doggers and which all had strange names that only Maurice Chevalier could say. ;)
- Westy
(I'd vote for a G.55 in a heart beat)
-
Originally posted by Treize69
Sorry Lupo, no anti-Italian sentiment is meant, just the justification for the plane by saying that the ANR used it. It was an extremely limited run aircraft, hardly used at all, and doesn't really offer anything the C.205 can't already do.
Np, Treize, I know you are a good guy :) But, again, I have to object: extremely limited run aircraft...?? no, they were run hard, to consumption! You always have to judge what the plane did in relation to the size of the air force that used it.. they were few, but they fought like devils, till the end, along with their machines. It doesn't really offer anything the C.205 can't already do...?? Sorry, wrong again. External similarities means nothing, they were 2 really different planes, just think about the wing loading (G.55 has a lighter one, meaning more maneuverability) and the wing surface (G.55 has the bigger, meaning better handling and stability at high altitude)... no, it'd offer something different.
I would kill to get the IAR in game, but I've already resigned myself to the fact that it'll never happen. We already have enough low-number, limited impact planes in the game that almost never see use (like the C.202 and C.205...), just can't justify devoting development time to a future hangar queen that only 5 people will fly more than once or twice a tour.
Treize, never say never... what you're saying is what I thought just a month ago, looking at Target Tobruk... now we're voting for the G.55! ;)
And, sorry for being that picky, but, again, you're wrong about the C.202, it was one of the most widely used fighters for Italy... ;)
Got the quote from http://www.ww2wings.com
Cc... I think a good book is still the best reading... it doesn't seems to me that website is much accurate on Italy... :p
-
You can debate the G55 all you want but the P39 is going to win!
:cool:
-
Shut up, you! Debating is funny! :D
-
Originally posted by Gianlupo
Tedrbr, Treize, you can't see that the G.55 is a LATE war plane.... Gabrielli started working on it in 1941, it made his first flight on April 30, 1942.
.[/i]
Sorry, I guess I should have been more clear. It was produced in limited numbers near the end of the war (at least in production terms) for Italy during WWII. The factories and suppliers were shortly put out of commission, then the Armistice. Then there was the time to produce a G.55 compared to a Bf109.
As just over 300 N1K2's were built, and they are all over the arenas, relative numbers don't mean much to me as an addition to the game. IIRC, Osties were pretty limited too.
G.55 would be a sweet ride, and still my second choice behind a perked A-26 Invader. P-39 in Russian skin and Russian plane set takes third.
-
Originally posted by Krusty
Treize, IT fighters (including the G.55) fought into late 1944, and after that point they fought on with late-model 109s (we used to have a couple of ANR skins, and somebody made a new one recently).
With only around 130 made and the majority of the ANR flew Bf109Gs as the Luftwaffe considered their C.200s, C.202s and C.205 largely obsolete. I really don't see how you can make the argument that the Fiat G.55 was a major player in the MTO air war.
ack-ack
-
Ack Ack, sorry but your statements are incorrect. Please, check the first link in my signature. ANR flew mostly italian planes till the end of 1944, C.205 and G.55: Italian pilots didn't consider these machine obsolete, and they preferred the Centauro to the 109... that's why the production went on even when the Germans tried to stop it a first time, after the April 1944 bombing of FIAT plants...
Tedrbr, Italy fought for all the duration of the war in Europe.. and most of the production of the G.55 was after the Armistice, till september 1944, for another year after the it. And it wasn't stopped because the Italians decided so, but because the Germans imposed that...
Well, it's too late to keep debating... 3 Am here :p I'll keep talking with you tomorrow, don't post too much or it'll take me a lot of time to answer to you, gents!
Good night!
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
What I find amazing is that the aircraft saw 148 produced and delivered. If was such an uber plane, it would have been adopted by the German's no matter what. It wasn't.
It was "adopted" by the luftwaffe, the decision was overturned based on both politics and increased production time per plane. I've got no problem with arguements that other planes have a greater historical impact....this is not however history....its a game. 90% of the play is in the LWA's. A large % (including the BK's) fly alot of "2nd tier" planes. The G.55 fits in very nicely and also provides an interesting perspective. The 205 certainly holds up very well and is highly regarded. The G.55 will be even better....
Basically its going to come down to either the G55 or the P-39...
-
As just over 300 N1K2's were built, and they are all over the arenas, relative numbers don't mean much to me as an addition to the game. IIRC, Osties were pretty limited too.
Tedrbr, while there were just over 300 N1K2's, there were about 1,000 of the earlier N1K1's and it's variants, which are very similiar, to add to the tally.
The George was used to try to stem the tide. But, like almost all of the Japanese planeset, It was snowed under by much greater numbers.
-
Originally posted by Gianlupo
Ack Ack, sorry but your statements are incorrect. Please, check the first link in my signature. ANR flew mostly italian planes till the end of 1944, C.205 and G.55: Italian pilots didn't consider these machine obsolete, and they preferred the Centauro to the 109... that's why the production went on even when the Germans tried to stop it a first time, after the April 1944 bombing of FIAT plants...
Tedrbr, Italy fought for all the duration of the war in Europe.. and most of the production of the G.55 was after the Armistice, till september 1944, for another year after the it. And it wasn't stopped because the Italians decided so, but because the Germans imposed that...
Well, it's too late to keep debating... 3 Am here :p I'll keep talking with you tomorrow, don't post too much or it'll take me a lot of time to answer to you, gents!
Good night!
Only one unit flew the G.55. The other fighter units flew either C.200s, C.202s, or C.205 or flew Bf109Gs. The Germans started to replace the Italian planes with Bf109s and then later decided to disband the ANR which caused a small rebellion amongst the ANR Italians. The Italian Co-Belligerence (sp?) Air Force fought througout the entire war, the ANR did not. It was completely grounded in early 1945 due to lack of fuel and was disbanded.
try using something other than Wikipedia.
ack-ack
-
3 squadrons, making up 200 pilots, flew the G.55. Unless I mis-read all the many many pages of valid info we've posted in the offical G.55 lobbying thread?
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
try using something other than Wikipedia.
ack-ack
Highly uncalled for, as your info seems to be the questionable stuff. FYI, Wiki didn't have nearly half the stuff it does now. When HTC posted a link to wiki, Gian updated the Wiki entry, citing his references.
-
Krusty, the saddest thing here is that you are so full of caca del toro that you could not move unless a dung beetle picked you up and rolled you into a ball....
Come on and get a basic understanding. The G.55 was a too late, not enough produced, and DEFINITLEY not an impact on the war.
I am tired of listening to your inane rantings. You know crap all, your assumptions are flawed and you generally have no clue. That you have survived this long is proof that God has a heart for idiots.
-
Interesting... Because you don't like something, you tear it down and anybody that does like it... Very interesting... Says a lot about you, really.
I never said it was a tide-turning aircraft. I simply said it wasn't "nothing" as you have been spouting. Did it appear in astounding numbers? No. Was it the primary late-war ride for the ANR? Yes. Was it "too late"? No. Not unless you call 1943 "too late" -- in which case so is the C.205 and the 109G-6 and the 190a5 and the blah blah blah.
And yet, here we are with you tearing me down. I'm sorry, I'm not biting. Take your insults and go home.
-
you started with insults...
I finish.
Spin it how you like, you are still a factless imbecile.
-
I did not start anything.
I've supplied you with more resources than you've supplied. You've just sat there shouting "NO!" with your hands over your ears.
Hell, you're entitled to vote however the hell you want.
I just didn't want you spreading misconceptions about the G.55 around, making others think it was a Ta152 when in fact it was a 109G6 (rare v. common).
-
Oh, and FYI: I've been pretty straightforward. I've not been hyping the plane up into some super monster of a plane (like the Yak-3), nor have I been downplaying it to the point of nonexistence (like you on this and the Brewster). I have supplied decent info on the aircraft. When you want to act civil feel free, but don't confuse me with Ball or humble and all the joke making and exaggeration.
If you read what I typed I only pointed out that which I found sources for. I embellished nothing and exaggerated not. If you have a problem with the info I've found, find more info. Most of it supports what I've typed.
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Only one unit flew the G.55. The other fighter units flew either C.200s, C.202s, or C.205 or flew Bf109Gs. The Germans started to replace the Italian planes with Bf109s and then later decided to disband the ANR which caused a small rebellion amongst the ANR Italians. The Italian Co-Belligerence (sp?) Air Force fought througout the entire war, the ANR did not. It was completely grounded in early 1945 due to lack of fuel and was disbanded.
try using something other than Wikipedia.
ack-ack
As Krusty stated, Ack Ack, I wrote the Wiki page about the G.55... and all the info I put there are from books. If you look carefully, in the Operational history part, you'll notice that both the fighter squadrons flew the G.55, the 2nd Gruppo from the beginning of ANR, the 1st only in Summer 1944. And substitution with the 109 started from the late 1944.
Bodhi, as I tried to explain before, I think that history (should) will have a lesser weight in the vote... most of the people will choose the plane with MAs in mind and this means performance will have the bigger impact, not production numbers. That's why the G.55 can be a good choice.
I'm sorry that everything ended in a mess, as usual. Not pointing finger at anyone, but I always hope we can discuss these topics without slaughtering each other... it should go this way....
-
Ouch.... I don't know what happened, but I'm afraid I made a little mess with Wiki... there are 2 pages about the G.55 now... the one Pyro linked and the one I wrote... add a dot between G and 55 in the Pyro's address, you'll see the new entry. I'll ask him if he can change the home page link. Sorry :p
EDIT: it looks like the editors want to keep the old entry, too... they added a summary to the page I wrote and put in a different picture.... oh well...
-
Originally posted by Krusty
I did not start anything.
What are you taking? Honestly, I want to see how the hell this turned into you being the victim? You came into this thread and called me ignorant. If that is not starting something, I really do not know wtf is.
Originally posted by Krusty
I've supplied you with more resources than you've supplied. You've just sat there shouting "NO!" with your hands over your ears.
I provided production figures put in place by your buddy Gianlupo. You want to argue that, talk to him. As for you saying that I am not listenening, I have seen your reasoning. You want the G.55 because it will have a chance for the Italians to fight and be competitive even though it was hardly a blip in the war. I have maintained it is such a limited production aircraft, that there are other more important aircraft that should go in game first.
Originally posted by Krusty
Hell, you're entitled to vote however the hell you want.
The why the hell are you here telling me something different then... seriously, what are you on?
Originally posted by Krusty
I just didn't want you spreading misconceptions about the G.55 around, making others think it was a Ta152 when in fact it was a 109G6 (rare v. common).
Misconception...? Again, what are you on?
The Ta152 saw about 50 examples produced and delivered... roughly. Thats 33% of the total number of G.55's that were delivered. The 109G6 saw roughly 11000 aircraft produced. It was the most common built 109. The G.55 total production (even counting aircraft not delivered and on assembly line) is 2.7% of the 109G6 production. The Ta152 total represents .4 % of the 109G6 production.
DING DING.... that logic of yours is FLAWED as usual. They were BOTH rare when compared to the 109G6.
You are not straight forward. You skew everything to your point of view. If you do not have a fact you make it up. Thats the number one problem with you and why people just can not stand to see you in a thread. Even when you are wrong you maintain your innocence and try to skew that into an attack on you.
Frankly I am very tired of you and your factless statements and spin.
Ohh, and the G.55 does not belong in the game. It was a limited number side show.
-
Bring the G.55 to Aces High!!!!! :)
shamus
-
This isn't a reenactment of WW2....it's a game. We have many planes that saw limited action (F4U-4,Ta-152) just to name a couple. No question if you look at it from a purely historical perspective then the P-39 is the hands down winner....it simply flew more places for longer then anything else.
However, if you factor in other variables then the G.55 tremendous sense. One of the facinations I've always had is how different perception and reality are. We all have tremendous preconceptions and reality is often a suprise. When WW2 aviation comes to mind most of the worlds population thinks Mustang, Bf-109, Spitfire, Zero & Yak-9. Almost no one thinks P-38, Ta-152, Typhoon, Ki-84 & La-5. Yet anyone in AH {with any experience} could discourse on the relative merits and shortcomings on all of them.
The G.55 was actually the right bird in the right place at the right time. Designed to counter the biggest threat in the best possible way while providing maximum operational flexibility. It would have entered service months before the P51B arrived in England and might have potentially changed the course of the war. It was an exceptional piece of aviation engineering and deserves a "place in the game" for that reason alone.
-
I am 100% not against adding Italian aircraft. If you want to add an Italian aircraft though, then add the CR.42 and SM.79.
Both served in significant numbers. Hell a CR.42 is in a museum over in England after it was shot down during the Battle of Britain.
That is the way it should be. Insignificant, hypothetical uber planes should have lower priority than the real in your face aircraft that were there and fought in numbers.
-
ROFLOL
Originally posted by Krusty
Only reason people want the G55 is the same reason people wanted the P38G. They think it will out fly and out shoot any other plane in the game. We have enough uber planes by my counting.
I hope we never get it. But that's just me.
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145428
Krusty cannot decide how many were produced either: -
Originally posted by Krusty
I wouldn't quote that number. So far the only reference I've seen quote that is Wikipedia. I've seen other webpages quote it, but saying they got it from wiki. I know there must be some reason somebody put that on wiki in the first place, but wiki's got numbers horribly wrong in the past (all user-submitted data, rememer?)
A non-wiki site has the following to say:
Deliveries of the G55 to the 53rd Stormo and the 353rd Squadriglia of the 20th Gruppo just started when Italy surrendered to the Allies on September 8, 1943. Because of Italy's surrender, the G55 did not see combat with the Regia Aeronautica. However, factories which were building the G55's were still under the control of the Republica Sociale Italiana (Salo Republic) in northern Italy, and several thousand were ordered. The G55 became the RSI's standard aircraft for their air force. Shortages began to develope as the DB 605 A-1 engines became scarce and only 105 FIAT G55's were produced by the time the Allies overran all of Italy.
Only about 100 made, but we know from other sources (even wiki) that many sat undelivered at the factories. There were probably less than 50 in service, or less.
Hey, I'd LOVE this plane, just trying to clarify the history a bit :p [/B]
You lose this book krusty?
Originally posted by Krusty
EDIT: Oh and just looked, turns out I own a book with some info on the G.55. According to Gunston (not the best, but still decent) only 105 were made, as well.
Scarce plane? from what you have been saying it was the backbone of the IAF!
Originally posted by Krusty
Actually I'm betting the exact opposite. I'm betting that's the total and a large portion of that was captured at the factories before they could be delivered.
Keep in mind it was a scarce airplane.
When they talk about Me262s they say 1400 produced (or whatever) but only 800 ever got to units. When they talk about the Ta152 they say 80 produced, but only 12 saw action. When they talk about He162s, they say 300 produced but only 2 units were equipped with them (and maybe a Hitler Youth group, there's some reference to this, but precious documentation as they were burning paperwork at the time).
So when they say 105 produced I'm taking that as "were counted as finished at the factory" and whether they ever got shipped from the factory is another matter.
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=198768
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
I am 100% not against adding Italian aircraft. If you want to add an Italian aircraft though, then add the CR.42 and SM.79.
You might like this link about the CR.42 in service...
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/falco_ra.htm
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/falco.htm
The CR.42 Falco (Falcon) was the last of the great biplane fighters entering flight testing in late May 1938. It was a successor of CR.32 that had claimed great success in the Spanish skies during the civil war.
The CR.42 was manufactured in larger numbers than any other Italian fighter, remaining in production as late as 1943. Extremely light on the controls, universally viewed as a delight to fly, superbly agile and innately robust, the CR.42 synthesised a decade-and-a-half of continuos fighter development; it was a thoroughbred with a distinguished pedigree carrying fighter biplane evolution to its apex. But its intrinsic qualities were those demanded of an earlier era in aerial warfare than that in which it was to find itself. The CR.42 was nevertheless to see combat throughout WWII and, curiously, was to fight against the Luftwaffe, alongside the Luftwaffe and with the Luftwaffe itself, singing the swan song of the fighter biplane while doing so.
The CR.42 was exported to Belgium, Sweden and Hungary, seeing combat in both Belgium and Hungary. Regia Aeronautica used them on all fronts (e.g. North Africa, Mediterranean, Battle of Britain and East Africa). The Luftwaffe used more than 100, as night attack aircraft in relatively quiet theatres and as fighter-trainers.
Thread on the SM.79 too
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65464
-
Hey Ball, if we add the C.R.42, then we oughta add the Gloster Gladiator, as well.
EDIT: It would be cool if we had a skin for them like those of the "three sisters" of Malta, Faith, Hope, and Charity, that had to defend the island single-handed until the Pedestal convoys could get through.
-
That would be fun. Although the Gladiator isnt as important to the RAF as the CR42 is to the Italians.
I would love to furball in a Gladiator though, would be so much fun :)
-
Originally posted by Ball
ROFLOL
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145428
Krusty cannot decide how many were produced either: -
Only about 100 made, but we know from other sources (even wiki) that many sat undelivered at the factories. There were probably less than 50 in service, or less.
Hey, I'd LOVE this plane, just trying to clarify the history a bit :p
You lose this book krusty?
Scarce plane? from what you have been saying it was the backbone of the IAF!
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=198768
LOL furball, Nice finds
Now, I'm just waiting for Krusty's rebuttal....
-
In case you missed it, Krusty on G.55:
Originally posted by Krusty
"While the G.55 was probabily the Standard fighter of the IAF during WW2"
Hardly!! Way more c.205s were made than were made with the G55, and the c.205 was a rare bird itself!
No, if you're looking for standard Italian planes during the second world war, you need to look for the G50, the CR 200 or maybe (maybe) the Re2000 radial series.
Only reason people want the G55 is the same reason people wanted the P38G. They think it will out fly and out shoot any other plane in the game. We have enough uber planes by my counting.
I hope we never get it. But that's just me.
You can view it here @
http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145428
-
Ok. But what about what I wrote in my posts? Why you guys don't answer to it? :confused:
-
which post?
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
I am 100% not against adding Italian aircraft. If you want to add an Italian aircraft though, then add the CR.42 and SM.79.
Both served in significant numbers. Hell a CR.42 is in a museum over in England after it was shot down during the Battle of Britain.
That is the way it should be. Insignificant, hypothetical uber planes should have lower priority than the real in your face aircraft that were there and fought in numbers.
The G.55 isnt "hypothetical"....it served in front line combat units. It's priority is certainly open for debate. There is absolutely no question that the P-39 wins against any plane if we arque on that basis. However the p-39 history is in some ways a great arguement FOR the G.55. Very few people (IRL or here) understand just how significant a role the P-39 played...it had a profund effect on the war. The P-39 was the single most important lend lease priotity to the russians by a wide margin. If we view the air/land battles at Kuban as the "midway" of the ETO then the P-39 is integral to the most important events in the ETO.
The russians were pragmatic enough to not only use the P-39....but to recognize its full value and equip its elite units with the plane over other more politically "correct" planes. The P-39 was the primary interceptor for a significant part of the elite soviet units well into 1944. The germans on the other hand let pride and politics overrule a military decision. Given the historical fact that the daylight bombing campaign was hanging on by a thread the G.55 might well have been the straw that broke the camels back.
There is no question that the G.55 was simply a "bit player" when put in a historical context. But that decision may very well have cost germany the war....or at least hastened its demise. Remeber this is not a reenactment....its a simulation. The G.55 is ceretainly a worthy addition....
-
The russians were pragmatic enough to not only use the P-39....but to recognize its full value and equip its elite units with the plane over other more politically "correct" planes. The P-39 was the primary interceptor for a significant part of the elite soviet units well into 1944. The germans on the other hand let pride and politics overrule a military decision. Given the historical fact that the daylight bombing campaign was hanging on by a thread the G.55 might well have been the straw that broke the camels back.
Humble, I assume that you're alluding to the American Daylight bombing campaign, as staged by the 8th AF? If that's so, then I'll point out right now that was due to alot of things, ranging from command level decisions for mission alts/strengths, the lack of long range escorts until almost mid '44, the unexpected intensity of flak/German defenses and radar....
...But sure as HELL not the G.55.
The reason the RLM dumped their interest in the G.55, and developement of almost all other Piston-engined fighters, was because the Me-262 had already made it's maiden flight by that time. The Luftwaffe turned it's development energies into the new Jet-fighters,as can be witnessed by their proliferation during the final 2 years of the conflict. Giving up on the G.55 DEFINETELY did not cost the Germans the war.
-
This one Bodhi.
Originally posted by Gianlupo
So, we should add to AH something that adds to the game aspect and, in the long term to CT....
Well, it all depends on what you think is "the game aspect".... reading through your above words, it seems that we need plane that could be used widely in scenarios and can see some use in the MA... well, IMO, MAs are still the most important part of the game. There you find most of the players, 24/7, there you'll find most of the fights (like them or not).
So, I'd say that we have to add to the game a plane that can add something to the MAs, in first place, to CT, then and, in the end, in AvA or SEA. Like it or not, I'm afraid this is the order in which you have to list them.
Then, you have not to look at production numbers, but at flying characteristics of the planes: IMO, G.55, Yak3, Ki44, maybe P39 and Me410 are the planes that could add to "the game aspect".
Regarding my choice, it has good flying characteristics, good armament and would be a fearsome opponent in MA (not only in MW, even in LW)... and in CT perspective, if the first tour will be the 8th AF against Germany, isn't it likely that the second one will be the 15th AF against Germany and Italy? Then the Centauro would be really useful...
Bottom word: I think that historical reasons should (and will) have less impact on the voting, while the characteristic of the plane should (and will) be the true criterion by which the winner should (will) be elected.
Just my 2 cents, of course.
One last thing, regarding German interest for the G.55: check the first link in my signature, you'll find why it didn't went in production in Germany.
-
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Humble, I assume that you're alluding to the American Daylight bombing campaign, as staged by the 8th AF? If that's so, then I'll point out right now that was due to alot of things, ranging from command level decisions for mission alts/strengths, the lack of long range escorts until almost mid '44, the unexpected intensity of flak/German defenses and radar....
...But sure as HELL not the G.55.
The reason the RLM dumped their interest in the G.55, and developement of almost all other Piston-engined fighters, was because the Me-262 had already made it's maiden flight by that time. The Luftwaffe turned it's development energies into the new Jet-fighters,as can be witnessed by their proliferation during the final 2 years of the conflict. Giving up on the G.55 DEFINETELY did not cost the Germans the war.
The luftwaffe never dropped its interest in the G.55. It recommended that the G.55 replace the 109 (which if you didnt notice stayed in production till the end of the war).
My "point" is that in mid 1943 US Bomber losses were very high and the entire daylight bombing campaign was at risk. Had the G.55 been put into production in March/April 1943 it would have had a major impact on US losses IMO. Had the G.55/II been placed into service (5 x 20mm) {especially with the K-4 engine} the germans would have had a plane much better suited to bomber interception.
Since this never happened neither one of us knows what the impact would be. But since the germans tried morters, rockets, 50mm cannon and all kinds of other outlandish things its pretty clear they never did really solve the issue. And since the various pods & gizmo's seriously comprimised the 109 and other planes combat capability the germans suffered attrition in both pilots and planes as a result. It's not a big reach to say that a plane designed for hi alt with plenty of cowl room for a bigger engine (and 3 x 20mm in nose) wouldnt have faired better....resulting in higher US bomber losses and lower attrition to the luftwaffe.
Your the one reaching here making statements that seem to have little validity. Replacing the 109 would have had zero impact on the 262 or other programs. As you stated the allies lacked long range escorts...and the 109's had insufficeint range and firepower while the 190's struggled up high. The G.55 with its 40,000+ combat ceiling 30% greater range and 3 times the hitting power would have inflicted a heavy toll on US bombers...
-
My point, Humble, and the reason I said,
...But sure as HELL not the G.55.
Is because of this:
The G.55 with its 40,000+ combat ceiling 30% greater range and 3 times the hitting power would have inflicted a heavy toll on US bombers...
Do you know what the key word there is????Give you a hint. Trees might be made of the same stuff.
Give up? Here it is.WOULD
If we go by this, we go into the land of IF and WOULD HAVE, and then we have Junkers Jet bombers with Forward-swept wings, Russian rocket interceptors, and Unsinkable Aircraft Carriers made out of Ice.
If you go by this, we would have to include the YP-80 in our list of candidates, which actually flew with an operational evaluation unit in Italy in the last 2 weeks before VE day.
-
Gianlupo,
I agree, it might actually fly in the MA. That is not the reason I am against it. I'd just like to see more of the major players available before we push into models that at their best were rare.
All fairness to you, I would definitely love to see more Itlaian Aircraft, just not the G.55 first.
Anyhoo, my opinion is getting a bit strong so I will let this rest. Good luck to you in the voting Gianlupo.
-
You guys are making a Mesiah out of this G55.:rofl
It was a very nice aircraft and it could do high altitude better then the 109 and 190 but.
At low and mid altitude was not that scarry. It had the good high altitude handling and performance because of low wing loading and a lot of wing area. This tends to reduce maximum speed at low alt and to reduce the roll rate.
Did you guys see how many work hours it took to build one of this things?
That's one of the reasons it was never an option for producing it for luftwaffe. They could build 262's faster then they would have built this thing. Let's not even talk about the lost production during the retooling period for the 109 factories.The Germans could not afford that.
What hurt the German people was the bombers. That's what was important for Hitler, Goering and the citizens in German cities. The escorts hurt the Luftwaffe. And that was not as important at that point in time.
What is better? having 300 slightly better planes when it comes to fighting the escorts or 2000 190's and 109's that can engage the bombers just as well. (or almost that good in the 109 case)?
The German high comand decided to go ahead with building jets in 1943 and all developement stoped for all piston engines that were not in production.
That decision put them in inferiority in piston engine fighters in 1944-1945. Not the lack of the G55.
If they put more resources in some bigger engines that were already in testing in the begining of 1943, like the BMW-802, they could have had a scary piston engine fightes by mid 1944. That engine was producing 2600HP at take off and 1,600hp at 12,000 m (39,000 ft).
All you have to do is put it in the FW-190 airframe and increase a little the wings (like in the case of Ta152C) and you have a plane that can do everything better then G55 could ever hope for.
-
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
My point, Humble, and the reason I said,
Is because of this:
Do you know what the key word there is????Give you a hint. Trees might be made of the same stuff.
Give up? Here it is.WOULD
If we go by this, we go into the land of IF and WOULD HAVE, and then we have Junkers Jet bombers with Forward-swept wings, Russian rocket interceptors, and Unsinkable Aircraft Carriers made out of Ice.
If you go by this, we would have to include the YP-80 in our list of candidates, which actually flew with an operational evaluation unit in Italy in the last 2 weeks before VE day.
You couldnt be more wrong, "would" is a powerful word. It often seperates survival from extinction. If you want to argue the logic go for it. But the simple reality is that luftwaffe fighter development focused omre and more on attempting to stop the bomber stream...and protect the "fighters" configured for the task. Had the germans simply put the G55 in production alot of time and effort would have been redirected elsewhere and the end result WOULD have been better for them. This is a certainty IMO...or are you argueing that the 109 was an equal or better fighter for both bomber interception and air to air combat...?
-
Originally posted by JAWS2003
You guys are making a Mesiah out of this G55.:rofl
Got that right, I almost want it to lose now because of it.
-
Humble, You're right that RLM developement priorities switched to Stopping the bomber stream. But, It was into Jet or Rocket powered aircraft that this developement went into. Once the Me-262 demonstrated it's performance, The RLM was sold. Whereas the G.55 was the best performing High-alt plane for the Regia Aeronautica , The Germans had planes like the 109K-4 and Ta-152 for High alt use. If you put a G.55 against a Ta-152, the 152 is almost 100mph. faster.
I'd like to take a moment and apologize for getting out of line in my previous two posts. It's easy to get too heated in a thread like this, IMHO.
;)
-
What is really, really sad here.
The G.55 has pretty good numbers in the forums. But the majority of players in the game placing their votes online probably have NO idea what it is.
G.55 is my second favorite plane on that list, but I am predicting it gets cut in the first round, unless there has been a lot of online and in-squadron lobbying for it the past couple of days.
But even there, probably online lobbying won't help for first round..... vote pop up is first thing they see, most probably placed a vote on name recognition, without really looking at what the planes were.
If G.55 get's the axe in first round, you can probably figure the final rounds will include the B-25, the He-111 and P-39.
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
Gianlupo,
I agree, it might actually fly in the MA. That is not the reason I am against it. I'd just like to see more of the major players available before we push into models that at their best were rare.
All fairness to you, I would definitely love to see more Itlaian Aircraft, just not the G.55 first.
Anyhoo, my opinion is getting a bit strong so I will let this rest. Good luck to you in the voting Gianlupo.
Thank you, Bodhi, I wish good luck to you, too. :)
Back on the topic, gentlemen, my point is that history, in Aces High, for the way the gameplay is now, has a tiny influence.
I can understand what Bodhi, Ball and many others say, and I respect their point of view: yes, we have many gaps in the planeset and they'd have to be filled.
But, alas, that'd be if scenarios were the bulk of the game. Unfortunately they're not.
That's why I think even a plane with little history, but good performance can be added to the current planeset. The G.55 could hold its own in MAs, that's why I'm so strongly lobbying for it. If the main part of gameplay were scenarios, I'd not do it, because we have many other planes that need to be added before the Centauro.
So, please, Humble, Frode, Krusty and all the others... it's useless to argue about historical facts. If you want or don't want this plane, you should argue about it from a technical point of view, like Jawz's doing. Because, in the end, I think this is the thing that will influence the vote most (who knows, maybe I'm wrong and all the MA kids will just vote for the plane they heard something of somewhere... we have too many kids! :D)
Jawz
It had the good high altitude handling and performance because of low wing loading and a lot of wing area. This tends to reduce maximum speed at low alt and to reduce the roll rate.
Quite true. There are many other planes that have a lot of wing area, like the Spit ;) Of course Spits have a lesser wing loading, but a Centauro could turn slightly worse than them, I guess (mind you, I'm not an expert) Anyway, as I stated before, it could hold its own, even at low altitudes.
What hurt the German people was the bombers.
Indeed, the G.55 main mission was to shoot down bombers, don't forget it! ;)
And finally....
But since the germans tried morters, rockets, 50mm cannon and all kinds of other outlandish things its pretty clear they never did really solve the issue. And since the various pods & gizmo's seriously comprimised the 109 and other planes combat capability the germans suffered attrition in both pilots and planes as a result. It's not a big reach to say that a plane designed for hi alt with plenty of cowl room for a bigger engine (and 3 x 20mm in nose) wouldnt have faired better....resulting in higher US bomber losses and lower attrition to the luftwaffe.
PHEW!!! Luckily they did! Or I'd be wearing a Camicia Nera! :D ;)
-
Originally posted by tedrbr
What is really, really sad here.
The G.55 has pretty good numbers in the forums. But the majority of players in the game placing their votes online probably have NO idea what it is.
G.55 is my second favorite plane on that list, but I am predicting it gets cut in the first round, unless there has been a lot of online and in-squadron lobbying for it the past couple of days.
But even there, probably online lobbying won't help for first round..... vote pop up is first thing they see, most probably placed a vote on name recognition, without really looking at what the planes were.
If G.55 get's the axe in first round, you can probably figure the final rounds will include the B-25, the He-111 and P-39.
Tedrbr, we all know what plane will win, more or less since Pyro posted his list... I just had to try! ;)
Anyway, don't think everything's already written... who knows... :)
-
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Humble, You're right that RLM developement priorities switched to Stopping the bomber stream. But, It was into Jet or Rocket powered aircraft that this developement went into. Once the Me-262 demonstrated it's performance, The RLM was sold. Whereas the G.55 was the best performing High-alt plane for the Regia Aeronautica , The Germans had planes like the 109K-4 and Ta-152 for High alt use. If you put a G.55 against a Ta-152, the 152 is almost 100mph. faster.
I'd like to take a moment and apologize for getting out of line in my previous two posts. It's easy to get too heated in a thread like this, IMHO.
;)
No apology required, its a debate and all well intentioned. I'm simply trying to sperate historical significance (almost none) with the potential impact the plane might have had. If we view AH as a "historical reenactment" club then then the g.55 has little value. If we view it as a "big time players" reenactment then it doesnt belong either. However if we simply ask what were the best planes available (sticking to those that saw combat) at any point during the war and the g.55 is not only one of (if not the best) "midwar" ride...but a plane that will compete well in the LWA IMO...
What I find intriquing is that the Italians went and specifically designed a plane to deal with the B-17s that maintained a reasonable overall flight envelope for fighter on fighter combat, had good range and "room to grow"...and it was just sitting there in 2/43 ready to go....yet the germans ignored it and never put an equal (let alone better) buff hunter in service (jets excluded of course).....
This is the only plane that could have moved me off the P-39. I think its simply a more worthy plane from a "sim" standpoint....not a historical one.
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
Vote for what you want to see.
I said no on the Brewster and the G.55. I think they add very little to the game aspect, and more importantly, the long term goal of CT.
I have yet to decide what I would rather see, as there are many aircraft represented that could add a lot to an already deficient set.
I could argue for the He-111, as it is needed for the historical side of several different scenarios played in here.
I could argue for any of the Japanese fighters, as they are extremely deficient, and besides filling out many possible scenarios in the PTO several are would be players in the MA.
I could argue for the P-39 as it also would fill scenarios across the board owing to it's uses as a lend lease aircraft as well. It might even see use in the MA.
I could argue for the Yak 3 as it will fill many Eastern Front scenairos as well as be an MA fighter.
I could argue for the Russian Bombers as they are woefully under represented and again fill scenario as well as limited MA usefulness.
I could argue for the B-25 as it was so widespread and used by British, Russians, Australians, and US. It's usefulness in scenarios and CT would be more than enough. It's variants might also see use in the MA in one way or another.
I could argue for the A-26 as again it was widely used and would see scenario usage and CT would warrant it, plus it would be used in the MA for sure.
The Me410 could be used especially in CT and scenarios. I am unsure about it's place in the MA though.
All in all, I really do not know what I will vote for. I am still at work, (and am working on a Corsair right now) and no blue planes are being suggested for vote, so thats a quandry. In the end though, I will probably lean towards the He-111 or another allied bomber, Russian or US, just not sure. Will see tonight.
Problem solved : Give US all the planes.........
-
Sorry, I have to ally with the anti- G.55 crowd. I voted for a japanese addition.
-
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
The George was used to try to stem the tide. But, like almost all of the Japanese planeset, It was snowed under by much greater numbers.
And, maybe better tactics and pilots? Maybe?
-
Thank you, Humble. As to the G.55 in the LW, we would have to see how well it did at 10k and below, most fights in the MA's are in that envelope. What's been discovered, is that planes that were phenomenal at 20-30k have alotta problems close to the deck.(Think of the performance change in the Jug and the Pony D, for example.)
You're right, Stoney. But I quoted numbers right off the bat Because after their losses at Midway, the Japanese could'nt replace their aircrews with the same quality as before...Whereas the U.S. started cranking out increasingly better pilots, and quite a lot more of them, as the war war on.
Alot of Japanese aces fought until the end, but New pilots were lower on the list of priorities, it seems, until the need for Kamikaze's arose.
-
Thats the part I dont have a good answer for. It's got a max wieght of just over 8100 lbs (500 lbs lighter then 205) and surface area of just over 227SF so wing loading is around 35/SF or so...this is actually significantly better then the C205 and on par with the 202 and Ki-61.
It's got better power loading then the 205 (and the Ki-61 & 202) so from what I gather its got better overall performance then both at lower alts...
I'd "expect" that it would out turn and out accelerate all of the above based on the raw numbers....but if and when we get it I'll be curious how it actually does....
-
Well, of course it's not a definitive statement about the low altitude performance of a Centauro, but think about this:
the G.55 has a wing area of 21.11 sq.m, with a MTOW of 3,720 kg, that means a wing loading of 176.2 kg/sq.m and a power-to-weight ratio of 0.29 Kw/kg;
the Spit XIV has a wing area of about 22.48 sq.m, with a MTOW of about 3,858 kg, wing loading is 171,61 and a power-to-weight ratio of 0.71 Kw/kg (Griffon 65 engine - data are from http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org-)
So, I guess it would behave much different from a Spit XIV, even though the shape of the wing, of course, willl have influence on stall characteristic, and something more, I'm not an expert (unfortutately :D)
Btw, Humble, Frode, don't you think you should continue a discussion about performance of the G.55 in a thread supporting it, not in a thread against it? ;)
-
Gian, It's a moot point now. Check Pyro's new thread.
-
Oh, well.... we tried.
Thanks to anyone who supported it.