Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: JB73 on March 28, 2007, 03:45:01 PM
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not out of old JB "Nostalgia" or because I wear Leather arseless chaps while I fly, but because of DIVERSITY in the arena.
I really believe that plane of ALL the choices will breathe new life into the fights and planes chosen in the MA.
It has nothing to do with country of origin, personal choice, or anything. a CLOSE second would be the C.55, but I am partial to the 410 as it has more "options"
so all you out there, before you vote, think about the MA consequences regarding your vote, and how the "game" will play ;) :aok
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See signature. :)
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i voted for the 410 too :)
(http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/Frtypen/Frfotmi2/Me410V1.jpg)
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i know my vote puts the kiss of death on this plane but i'm diggin the 410. i'm in...410.
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(http://scalepublications.freeyellow.com/Me-410.JPG)
(http://www.cebudanderson.com/images/me410bbbtg.jpg)(http://www.cebudanderson.com/images/ME-410-B.JPG)
(http://luftwaffefighters.co.uk/410/me410-2.jpg)
(http://luftwaffefighters.co.uk/410/me410-3.jpg)(http://luftwaffefighters.co.uk/410/me410-4.jpg)
(http://airpower.callihan.cc/images/ww2axis/me410d.jpg)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/me410/me410-1.gif)
(http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/me410/me410-10.jpg)
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Treize,
Did you build the 410 model? How long have you been in the Syracuse area? (I was exiled there for several years) ;)
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No, I stumbled across that site a while back and liked the look of it, 410 is on my list of models to add to the collection. Was browsing for kits and ideas.
You like that, you should see some of the schematics I found on a Russian modelling site. Would be great reference for the modeller when it wins. :)
Lived here all my life, variously in Oswego and Oneida counties.
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Man that thing is a butt ugly plane :)
ducks and runs.
shamus
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Already testing it, image photoshopped for historical feel. :)
(http://mighty8thaf.preller.us/albums/562ndBS/ac_ME410.sized.jpeg)
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What an ugly beast... but I am intrigued......
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I wouldnt mind seeing the 410, but I don't think that HTC is going to be able to do the aft remote guns justice with the current model. As it is now, we have to aim Ar-234 cannon via external sighting because the periscope sight isn't modeled. I think all they could do with the 410 is to lock the guns straight aft and let you try to pull the trigger while looking aft.
EagleDNY
$.02
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It had a crew of 2, wouldn't the second be the rear gunner?
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Well, would rather have had the HE 219 and it's variants, but as this wasn't on the list, I vote for the 410!:aok
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It's just going to be cannon fodder for the fighters in the game, just like it was in real life. While it was moderately successful against the Allied heavy bombers, it was out classed by single engine fighters in a dogfight.
By mid-1944 the Me-410 was being withdrawn from front line service and production was phased out in favor of single engine fighters. By fall of 1944, the remaining Me-410 units were only taking part in recon duties.
Nay on the Me-410 at least for me.
ack-ack
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I'll believe it'll be slaughtered when it starts happening to the 110 and Hurricane. "Outclassed" planes in AH have a nasty tendancy to perform much better than they ever did IRL.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
It's just going to be cannon fodder for the fighters in the game, just like it was in real life. While it was moderately successful against the Allied heavy bombers, it was out classed by single engine fighters in a dogfight.
And, IIRC, much of that success as a bomber destroyer was a NIGHT..... which we ain't got in the arenas.
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No, it was used primarily against the US heavies and as a light Schlacht bomber.
The 110 was the one used at night.
Should we get rid of it since we don't have night?
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Actually like was stated, in AH, the slower the plane the better the turn radius, so turn and HO turn and HO oh my a 110 wanna be! Pick the p39, we need a EA plane that can out HO the hurri 2c:O
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I voted 410 this round because I just like them and always have...
I think the Yak and the G55 are interesting too, but not enough.
All of the bombers proposed are twin engine medium bombers that AH already has plenty of (although I would love to see the HE111)...
The Buffalo was obsolete before the first shot of the war was fired.. I see it only getting used for scenarios, it would be a M.A. hanger queen. I think the p39 would suffer the same fate.
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Originally posted by Treize69
I'll believe it'll be slaughtered when it starts happening to the 110 and Hurricane. "Outclassed" planes in AH have a nasty tendancy to perform much better than they ever did IRL.
The Bf110 9 out of 10 times gets slaughtered in the MA.
3-5 times the Hurricane gets slaughtered unless it runs into an inexperienced pilot that goes nose to nose with one and gets HO'd.
ack-ack
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My vote for the p 39 is really only because I would like to see more of a variey in the EA arena, where I think it might do fairly well. Other arenas, well it would be about the same as the yak 9 T, used rarely and only by the curious..........
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I've watched a 110 pull a 1-man Lufberry circle in the middle of a furball and survive more times than I can count. Or turn inside its own track and HO someone who was within 600 yards at over 350 MPH.
And I've also had a Hurricane IIC follow me in a 450mph dive, pull out easier than my P-51, close the distance and 1 ping de-wing me or pluck my tail, then zoom back up on his merry way like he was in a damn Sea Fury. Or 1-ping pilot kill you from 1,200 yards out.
If the Hurricane was that good IRL, they wouldn't have needed the Spitfire.
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I'd like to se the 410,simply because it could be modeled for high alt work.
The axis need a high alt bomber destroyer,the 110's we presently have just are too slow at alt.
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(http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg0089.jpg)
(http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~nagle/splash.jpeg)
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Originally posted by Treize69
Already testing it, image photoshopped for historical feel. :)
(http://mighty8thaf.preller.us/albums/562ndBS/ac_ME410.sized.jpeg)
Treize,
You guys may have seen me mention in the past that my Grandfather in-law was a b17 squadron commander and took one of the very few actual combat photos of a 410...
This photo you posted is the photo he took... My brother in law has the original.
Notice the BIG hole out there in the wing near the 'H' insignia... Thats that was punched in them by that big cannon... No surprise they were happy it went through nothing but sheet metal.
I don't suppose you have a larger resolution of the photo? I would love to have a digital version of it, but he doesn't have a scanner and won't let me take the photo out. It has only been published a few times, and I haven't ever seen it online.
Thanks.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
3-5 times the Hurricane gets slaughtered unless it runs into an inexperienced pilot that goes nose to nose with one and gets HO'd.
I agree the 110 has the odds against it, being such a large target (which is enough to offset the mossie's otherwise above avg. furball performance) in addition to everything else, but the Hurricane doesn't have that much trouble surviving, if you are patient enough to rtb after killing all the reds or running out of ammo.
I have been furballing with the HurriD, and unless you are alone against too many cons to handle (which is around the same proportions for almost every fighter plane, +- 4:1), you can do pretty well.
Definitely better than average, not slaughtered at all.
And I don't HO.
Barring any freak FM characteristics on par with the Mossie's, the 410 would probably not be very far from either side of average, in the MA.
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110 is extremly successful in AH as a jabo. The 410 should be just as good and do better up high (depending on the version and gun uption we get) plus it has more sex apeal than the 110 :cool:
I would like to know what 410 version we are voting for tho.
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People who say a plane is over modeled or under modeled based on its performance in the arenas compared to historical records is missing the very important fact that the arenas are nothing like real life. Take a squadron of Hurricanes up to 15k and face them off with a sqd of 109E's that flies like a squadron should ... the Hurricanes will get slaughtered.
In real life the Me 410 did well against the allied bombers until they faced superior numbers of superior performing allied fighters. In one 1944 engagement a Me 410 staffeln lost 12 planes. Not very surprising considering they were jumped by 20 Mustangs at 25k.
In the arena a single Me 410 at low altitudes may very well prevail against a single Mustang a with a crybaby noob at the controls, who has little or no understanding of the differences between arena and real life … and who goes on to cry about it on the bbs.
I voted for the Me 410.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The Bf110 9 out of 10 times gets slaughtered in the MA.
3-5 times the Hurricane gets slaughtered unless it runs into an inexperienced pilot that goes nose to nose with one and gets HO'd.
ack-ack
Your first statement is surprisingly true:
110 vs Bishops: 4900 kills to 5465 deaths = 0.89 ratio
110 vs Knits: 4091 to 5320 = 0.76
110 vs Rooks: 3873 to 5846 = 0.66
However, your 2nd statement is not, unless 75% of the people qualify as noobs:
HOicane vs Bish 5989 kills to 3246 deaths = 1.85
HOicane vs Knits 6445 kills to 3541 = 1.82
HOicane vs Rooks 5868 kills to 4440 = 1.32
However, these statistics are quite interesting...apparently, the Rooks deal better with these planes. Unfortunately, the reverse statistics (Rooks vs HOicane will be "coming soon")...until then...
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As far as stats go,
you also have to take into account that the 110 is one of the toolshedders prime choices, which means that k/d stats for this plane do not tell the whole story.
As such, the 410 alongside the Mosquito and 110 would certainly see use in the MA, perhaps even replacing the 110 for ground attack work.
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Originally posted by leitwolf
As far as stats go,
you also have to take into account that the 110 is one of the toolshedders prime choices, which means that k/d stats for this plane do not tell the whole story.
As such, the 410 alongside the Mosquito and 110 would certainly see use in the MA, perhaps even replacing the 110 for ground attack work.
exactly...NOE base take missions are great with a 110 ...but many get shredded in the ack so the k/d is actually suprisingly good considering most dont even see air to air action...
the hurricane rarely makes it to any enemies field due to slowness but is always flown as a fiter so hence the higher k/d...
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Seems the TA could be used for high alt bomber destroyer work, it does have 2 20 mm and 1 30 mm cannons?
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I'm a bit curious, from what I can find the 410 only has 2x20mm as it's "standard" loadout {yes it has 2 x 12.7mg as well}. Given the relatively poor ballistics of the german 20mm it seems like the plane is somewhat overhyped....compared to the 4 x 20mm in the mossie for example. I'm assuming the 2 x 20mm "gun pack" is internal to the fuselage...or is it fitted in the bombbay and firing under the nose like a "Chin mount"?
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I think the U2 had two additional 20mm and there were some that had the 30mm cannon not no mention the 50mm (we wont get the latter)
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410 will get my vote if the Brewster and Tu2/PE2 go out.
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I voted 410:aok
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It's got my vote.
That or the A26, whichever makes it to the last round.
I wll do anything within my power to NOT get the B25 though.
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I believe in late war, birds received added firepower. There was always a strap ON so to speak. The 2 20 mm standard layout didn't include the 4 20mm belly configuration for the destroyer version. Also the 2 12.7 mgs were in the remote controlled side/tail barberettes, good luck AH in modeling those! We will see if the 410 is chosen, what armament packages we can load out. The a 26 remote controlled turrets were modeled pretty well in Air Warrior, a clearly inferior game as far as visual effects are considered. We shall see :furious
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Teufl, it also had fixed MGs firing forward. I think that's what he was referring to. There are 2 MGs in the nose, and 4 20mms (one of the more common versions, I think).
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410 IMO would replace the 110G as a town killer and vehicle attack ride. It would really be just a faster 110G in terms of MA use IMO
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The basic A-series planes were armed with two 7.92 mm MG 17 and two 20 mm MG 151/20 in the nose and delivered as the Me 410 A-1 light bomber. The originally planned heavy fighter Me 410 A-2 was cancelled because the dual MK 103 cannon pack was not ready in time. The Me 410A featured a bomb bay for carrying air-to-ground ordnance or for the installation of additional air-to-air weaponry or other equipment. Initially, three Umrüst-Bausätze (conversion kits) were available, U1 contained a palette of cameras for the photo-reconnaissance role, U2 two 20mm MG 151/20 cannon with 250 rounds each for the heavy fighter use, and U4 used the 50 mm BK5 cannon with 21 rounds to turn the aircraft into a dedicated bomber destroyer. The BK5 cannon, derived from a now outdated anti-tank weapon, allowed the 410s to shoot at their targets from over 1,000 yards, a distance at which the bombers' guns were useless for defense. The low rate of fire and limited ammunition supply together with the extra weight of the large gun made the other anti-bomber versions of Me 410, especially those with extra MG 151/20 cannon, much more useful. The dedicated reconnaissance version Me 410 A-3 received a deeper fuselage for additional cameras and fuel. The 410 A-3 entered service in small numbers in early 1944, and equipped three long-range reconnaissance Staffeln (one on the Western Front and the other two on the Eastern Front).
The Me 410B-series was largely the same as the A-series, but replaced the 7.92 mm MG 17's with 13 mm MG 131. The originally planned 1,900 hp (1.397 kW) DB 603G engine was cancelled in early 1944 so all 410B's used DB 603A or DB 603AA engines, just like the A-series. The DB 603G would have increased the maximum speed to 630 km/h (392 mph), and cruising speed to 595 km/h (370 mph), although the weights increased once again. The versions were the same as with the A-series, the Me 410 B-1, Me 410 B-2 and Me 410 B-3 filling the same roles as the earlier A-1, A-2 and A-3 versions.
Several experimental models were also developed. The Me 410 B-5 added shackles under the fuselage to carry a torpedo, and removed the MG 131s in the nose to make room for the FuG 200 Hohentwiel ship-search radar. The bomb bay was not used in this version in order to make room for a 650 litre fuel tank, and the defensive gun barbettes were replaced by another 700 litre fuel tank for long-range missions. The Me 410 B-6 was a similar anti-shipping conversion, but intended for the short-range coastal role only. For this mission it did not use a torpedo, and was instead a simple modification of the B-1 with the FuG 200 radar. The Me 410 B-7/B-8 were updated B-3 reconnaissance modell that were only built as prototypes.
The Me 410C was a high-altitude version drawn up in early 1944, with two new wings designs that increased span to 18.25 m or 20.45 m (60 ft or 67 ft). The larger wings allowed the gear to retract directly to the rear. A new universal engine mount would allow for the use of any of the DB 603JZ or BMW 801J turbocharged engines or the Jumo 213E two-stage mechanically supercharged engines, driving a new four-bladed propeller with very wide blades. The 801 was air-cooled and the 213 used an annular radiator in the nose, so the normal under-wing radiators were removed and the DB powered versions would use the radiator from the 213's. None were ever built, as Me 410 production was canceled before the engines matured.
The Me 410D was a simpler upgrade to the B-series to improve altitude performance, but not to the same degree as the C-series. It would be powered by the DB 603JZ engines, and had a revised forward fuselage to increase the field of view of the pilot and reduce drag. It also replaced portions of the outer wing panels with ones made of wood to conserve strategic materials. Several were built, but like many other attempts at wood construction, the loss of the Tegofilm factory in a bombing raid meant the adhesives available were not strong enough, and the wooden portions failed.
Production was eventually canceled to concentrate on Messerschmitt Bf 109Gs in August 1944, after 1,160 Me 410s had been built.
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Too bad/Good thing the 410C was never built, might have actually done pretty well as long as the yweren't thrown in without single-engine support.
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So the most common Zerstörer would have 4x MG 151/20 (two in nose and two in bomb bay) + either 2x MG 17 (A-1/U2) or 2x MG 131 (B-1/U2) in the nose. The B-2 had the 30mm MK 103 cannons.