Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hajo on March 28, 2007, 08:18:22 PM
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Let me know when your father takes it up the first time. I will change countries and ask to join........sit in the back like a little mouse quietly and just listen. Also.......if you would film it. Would be great to see and hear.
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Yep. 80th Headhunter 38s would happily escort that 25 anytime :)
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Dan TFC would gladly change countries to wing with the 80th and escort that B25 :aok
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More the merrier :)
80th 38s flown by Cy Homer and Porky Cragg escorting a 345th BG B25 to Rabaul
I'd love to get a chance to 'fly' that one in my 38G
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1152950374_80th38s.jpg)
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I am reading between the lines here, and would GLADLY participate as well.
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was b25D same as b25j?
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Nope. 5th AF modified their B25C/Ds into Strafers. Pappy Gunn added 2 50s on each side of the nose and 4 50s in the nose replacing the bombardier.
This is where the inspiration for the gunships came. North American later designed gun noses for the 25G, H and J, but it was an in the field mod by 5th AF that brought the 25 gunship into being.
Toad's Dad flew one of those 25D modified strafers.
C/Ds and Gs had the top turret in the rear of the fuselage. H/J moved it behind the pilots and added a 2 gun tail position as well as waist guns that didn't originally exist in C/D versions. Again they were modified in the field to take single guns in the tail and waist guns.
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I have to wonder how stuff like this came about. Take a bomber, add a bunch of young guys working on it and flying it, and all of a sudden someone puts 8 extra heavy machineguns in the nose, and then on to field artillery and anything else that can be shoehorned into it.
What led up to this?
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Speaking for my squad here VF-15 would be glad to up our Hellcats for a mission like that.
-BB
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The need to destroy things! :D
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I have to wonder how stuff like this came about. Take a bomber, add a bunch of young guys working on it and flying it, and all of a sudden someone puts 8 extra heavy machineguns in the nose, and then on to field artillery and anything else that can be shoehorned into it.
What led up to this?
5th AF essentially was in the business of supporting the ground troops. To attack shipping and airfields as they Island hopped, they need to make the most of what they had. Pappy Gunn was George Kenney's Engineering genius and he did things like design a parafrag rack for the A20 and put 4 guns in the nose of the early A20s so they had more punch for the role.
He then did the same with the B25 which made it an absolute killer at low level against shipping and airfields. parafrags and those 50s to keep the flak gunners down. The parafrags blew apart the Japanese aircraft on the ground at the same time.
Look up info on the Battle of the Bismarck Sea where the B25C strafers made their first appearance. It was a blood bath for the Japanese.
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A good example of what the 25s were doing from the 345th BG history. It's full of photos of attacks on shipping at absolute low level with ships being just blown to bits by the 25s. Also lots of photos of parafrags falling on airfields and the 25s strafing away.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1175147289_25s.jpg)
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
What led up to this?
TO eliminate thy foe. The other person trying to eliminate you.
Somethings are like that. Real War unfortuantly is very like that.
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More up close and personal from the 345th 25s.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1175147791_boom.jpg)
And they had some of the most wicked looking squadron nose art ever. They'd be skinner's heaven. Can you imagine roaring in to the target in "Betty's Dream" with that Bat nose? Heck, we'd have to have Toad start the 345th BG in here so we could all fly 25s :)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1175147884_noses2.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1175147870_noses1.jpg)
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
What led up to this?
Some bored hot-roders, wanting to modify something. And since it was wartime make something more leathal.
More guns=more better!
And there you go.
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aye. it would be an honor to fly escort for him in my F4U.
the B25 has my vote.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Yep. 80th Headhunter 38s would happily escort that 25 anytime :)
I'll fly that mission as well. Even if I'm not in the 80th.
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extra cool pics!
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Originally posted by Guppy35
More the merrier :)
80th 38s flown by Cy Homer and Porky Cragg escorting a 345th BG B25 to Rabaul
I'd love to get a chance to 'fly' that one in my 38G
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1152950374_80th38s.jpg)
That's a plane from my father's squadron; horizontal stripes on the vertical stabilizers were a 345th/501st Black Panthers identification.
Nice photo...from Hickey, I believe?
Yeah, if we get it, I'll get him airborne in it somehow. He has a puter up in Nebraska but I don't think it would run AH. I'd have to get him down to KC and he doesn't travel much any more. I think it could be done for that though.
I appreciate all the warm sentiments, gentlemen. I will point him at this thread. He posted here a long while back as "Panther" IIRC. Don't think those posts were saved though; maybe someone archived them.
Also, talking of Gunn, I think he also tried a configuration where about 8 or 12 .30 mgs were racked in the bomb bay of a B-25 and set at a 45 degree angle. These swept across an airfield line abreast ahead of the parafrag bombers to get everyone ducking. I don't think that idea went very far though; they switched to the 50's in the nose.
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A read a small,excellent book about Pappy Gunn some years ago (about 15 or so). He was an older guy running a small airline out of the Philippines before the war. After Pearl Harbor he was "drafted" into the Air Corp and helped support the evacuation. Unfortunately, that did not extend to his wife and children, who were interned by the Japanese.
He set out on a crusade to help end the war as quickly as possible. Early on, he did a lot of covert behind the lines flying in and out of the Philippines after the Japanese occupation -- secret agent kind of stuff. Eventually, he came up with the gunship concept informally for 3rd Attack Group and Kenny quickly recognized the potential especially when combined with his invention -- the parafrag.
A very interesting man.
Charon
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Originally posted by Guppy35
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1175147289_25s.jpg)
BOP mission? :rofl
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I would love to participate as well.
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If you up then let me know were you are going :)
:noid
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"Hot rodders" hits the nail on the head. We 21st century dudes have a hard time imagining what life was like in the 30s and 40s -- but in short, it was almost like the fates conspired to set up the perfect environment for field modifications.
In the early 20th century, mechinazation and engineering felt every bit as cutting edge as computer technology does for us now. Rapid advances, new inventions, reshaping the world, the whole bit. This is the era that Popular Mechanics magazine was created -- and try to imagine that it sounded like PC MAgazine to them, not like a journal for grease monkeys.
Then toss in the depression. Lots of people living on farms, lots working week to week hand to mouth. Reusing, making do, penny pinching, do it yourself stuff weren't lifestyle choices, they were the only way to survive.
So an entire generation grew up tinkering, modifying, kitbashing. They'd take an old gas engine and rig it to do something else, like run a pully system to get the hay into the loft faster. They'd bang stuff together to make parts into a tool they couldn't afford to buy. And if they did have a little money, they'd be ABLE to mess with the settings on their cars, because they didnt have to worry about fuel injection and computer chips under the hood.
Lastly, consider this -- as a nation of immigrants, Americans in general had a higher chance of having adventurous, aggressive, risk taking genetic tendencies. Modern science has found that a good portion -- as much as 50% -- of some personality traits can be traced to genes, not to character strength or upbringing. Folks who were optimistic enough, bold enough, risk taking enough to leave everything and start over in the New World tended to have more adventurous personalities than those who stayed home. THAT has a lot to do with the American "can do" attitude, as much as the nature of the new world itself.
Mix those together -- cutting edge engineering environment, "can do" personalities, a decade of tinkering and mechanical work -- and its a "perfect storm" for field mods, from the gunships to the Normandy hedge cutting Shermans.
'Course, nowadays we're perfectly set up for kids whose thumb dexterity needs to be high...
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Please! Please NOT the B25!
Don't need another US level bomber, what we DO need is an A26 or Me410! :) (well ok "level bomber" is by defination, I know it was used as a low level strafer aswell)
Put my vote on the 410 this first time but I am very split between that and the A26. I definatly don't want a B25 though.
Well, actually, only reason I'd want a B25 is if HTC modell the bombs that can skip on water. Would make for fun anti CV action.
*hijacked*
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From my point of view, this is solely as an honor to my father.
What ever plane they choose won't change the game. Most of the choices getting touted will be primarily hangar queens in the MA. They might see some use in special events but the vast majority of the player base doesn't participate.
So the what the game needs approach falls on deaf ears with me. Another airplane is not what the game needs. It doesn't matter what plane or how many planes are added.
What the game needs is people who like to fight in airplanes against other airplanes; sadly, that isn't going to happen.
So, they're just adding planes; might as well be one that I see a good reason to add, even if that reason has nothing to do with the game.
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The reality is that AH is a game. A single plane alone isn't going to add value to this game.
However:
The opportunity to do the right thing by honoring a vet will add value to AH. If we can honor a man who was willing to lay down his life for our nation by letting him fly that plane in AH, then that's good enough reason for me to vote for the B-25.
Toad, if your dad ever takes to the air in AH, please pm me and let me know. It would be an honor to fly escort for him in my Corsair.
And what ever happens, tell him that Ongurth says thanks for his service in WWII.
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Let's get the vote out!
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I done voteded on it.
:)
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I believe most (if not all) of us voted for the Mitchell. We' d also be honored to add to the formation.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I have to wonder how stuff like this came about. Take a bomber, add a bunch of young guys working on it and flying it, and all of a sudden someone puts 8 extra heavy machineguns in the nose, and then on to field artillery and anything else that can be shoehorned into it.
What led up to this?
I bet somebody saw a target that looked like it could use some heavy
firepower, then rigged whatever they thought would work. The A-20 was
originally modified with 4 20mm in the nose....it was later replaced because
the muzzle flash from the 4 20s was
blinding the pilot.
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HUZZAH! the B25 survived the first round.:aok
Get the vote out again! :D
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The VF-31 Tomcatters would gladly escort as well.
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I thank all of you that voted for the B-25 in round one.
I hope you will continue to do so; it would be a very great honor for my father.
For those that haven't seen it, here is Quitch over the New Guinea jungle. You can't see him but he's in the left seat. The picture was taken with an old Kodak Brownie box-type camera by a friend of his.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/116_1117080887_quitch.jpg)
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Already voted round 2 for the B25
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Originally posted by Toad
That's a plane from my father's squadron; horizontal stripes on the vertical stabilizers were a 345th/501st Black Panthers identification.
Nice photo...from Hickey, I believe?
Yeah, if we get it, I'll get him airborne in it somehow. He has a puter up in Nebraska but I don't think it would run AH. I'd have to get him down to KC and he doesn't travel much any more. I think it could be done for that though.
I appreciate all the warm sentiments, gentlemen. I will point him at this thread. He posted here a long while back as "Panther" IIRC. Don't think those posts were saved though; maybe someone archived them.
Also, talking of Gunn, I think he also tried a configuration where about 8 or 12 .30 mgs were racked in the bomb bay of a B-25 and set at a 45 degree angle. These swept across an airfield line abreast ahead of the parafrag bombers to get everyone ducking. I don't think that idea went very far though; they switched to the 50's in the nose.
WHERE in Nebraska? One of my minions works out of Lincoln, and MOST of my minions are from somewhere in Nebraska. I'm sure I could find a way to get a machine set up for him if he's not too far out in the boonies.
I'll fly that one, too.
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Puck, he's right in Lincoln, about 70th and Van Dorn I think.
He's got a puter, I just don't think it will run AH. It's an E-machine we bought him last fall from Best Buy. Decent for what he does, e-mail and surf the news but I don't think it would be a gamer.
Appreciate the offer; if the B-25 makes the cut, maybe we can try to work something out.
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Originally posted by Ongurth
The reality is that AH is a game. A single plane alone isn't going to add value to this game.
However:
The opportunity to do the right thing by honoring a vet will add value to AH. If we can honor a man who was willing to lay down his life for our nation by letting him fly that plane in AH, then that's good enough reason for me to vote for the B-25.
Toad, if your dad ever takes to the air in AH, please pm me and let me know. It would be an honor to fly escort for him in my Corsair.
And what ever happens, tell him that Ongurth says thanks for his service in WWII.
REPLY WITH INDEED
if the 25 makes it and now I really hope it does... I want in on that flight.
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I voted for it again in the second round. I too hope it makes it, cause I think it would be down right cool and like others have stated, an honor to your father.
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B25 survives again!:D :aok
time for round 3!
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Once again, I thank all of you for supporting the Mitchell and my father's version of it.
I hope to have a big surprise for him very shortly! I know it will make his month!
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Voting for the B-25 now.
Good luck Toad.
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Voted again B25. More fun than voting for a useless Presidential Candidate.
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I put my vote in for it, Toad.
It would truly be a pleasure to see if fly in here, with your dad at the controls.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I have to wonder how stuff like this came about. Take a bomber, add a bunch of young guys working on it and flying it, and all of a sudden someone puts 8 extra heavy machineguns in the nose, and then on to field artillery and anything else that can be shoehorned into it.
What led up to this?
Partly it's these mechanics realized there was a big disconnect between the people who were spec'ing the plane armament and loadouts and the reality of combat in the field in the various theaters, and they took the initiative and made adjustments.
Also, I think it's just human nature to tinker and use ingenuity and can-do. These same guys came home and started doing the same thing to their cars.
Crazy stuff, like making a race car from the drop tank of a P-38: http://www.so-calspeedshop.com/history/bellytank.html
Thus the hot rod generation cometh.
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I think most of us already voted tonight.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I have to wonder how stuff like this came about. Take a bomber, add a bunch of young guys working on it and flying it, and all of a sudden someone puts 8 extra heavy machineguns in the nose, and then on to field artillery and anything else that can be shoehorned into it.
What led up to this?
Some of us don't have to wonder at all.
Take an Army Combat Engineer's M929, 5-ton truck, dump.
Weld on a bunch of soft grade boiler plate at key locations to give a little small arms protection. Put sandbags on the floor of the bed and cab to try and protect against IED's and mines. Put some limited overhead cover, and carry a few extra fire extinguishers, cause some Iraqis think it's fun to drop buckets of flaming gasoline into the back of passing U.S. vehicles.
Toss a Sincars manpack in the front seat hooked up to the external antenna mount, cause there aren't enough vehicle mounts to go around, so you have a chance at short range commuunications. Remember to take an extra battery or two. Be prepared to go PT/SC, when (not if) you loose the fill on the radio, and only a couple working ANCD's to be found.
Jury rig a shaky and detrimental to accuracy pedestal mount --- because enough ring-mounts can't be found --- to the bed of the truck onto which you can mount an M2 .50 cal machine gun. Add a blister guard --- salvaged from some old Soviet armor --- to the pedestal mount to offer the gunner some small arms protection. Put a gunner on the headboard with a M249 SAW to watch the front and chew dust.
Load up on water and MRE's, cause the converted HMMV gun trucks, with M249 gunners, don't have enough room in them to carry much supplies.
Toss your bug-out bag in back, extra ammo if you can scrounge any, and gear up.
You are now ready to escort Iraqi convoys hauling Iraqi munitions to be destroyed between the source in Taji and disposal site near Tikrit. Over 100 miles each way, with a lovely trip via the Samarra Bypass.
Oh, yes..... I certainly know all about the work has to be done as we have no choice. As they say, needs must when the devil drives. "Necessity is the Mother of Invention".
(http://home.earthlink.net/~tedrbr/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/5tontechnical2.jpg)
Camp Cook, Taji, Summer 2004.
One Class-3 Army "Gun Truck". If driven by the bad guys, we'd call this thing a "Technical".
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nothing to say but Amen
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Again, my deepest thanks to those of you voting for the B-25 and Quitch.
I've already had one skinner say he'd be proud to do the artwork. :)
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Originally posted by Toad
Again, my deepest thanks to those of you voting for the B-25 and Quitch.
I've already had one skinner say he'd be proud to do the artwork. :)
Toad, I voted for the P-39 prior to reading your post. I've voted for the B-25 ever since. I'll with you, or your father anytime. You've always been a class act. Please, tell your father "Thanks for serving" for me.
I hope the Mitchell wins.
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Another vote for the B25......we keep voting like this for the 25 we might have a hanging chad controversy.
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Final Round...Hope it happens', Toad.
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Agreed. Fingers crossed that we're closer to 80th P38Gs escorting Quitch through the AH skies.
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Yet again, I thank all of you that keep voting for the B-25! Great to see such a historically important part of the war effort in many countries make it to the final round!
I hope you will continue to do so; it would be a very great honor for my father.
Once again, for those that haven't seen it, here is Quitch over the New Guinea jungle. You can't see him but he's in the left seat. The picture was taken with an old Kodak Brownie box-type camera by a friend of his. Quitch ended her flying days on a coral reef just off the emergency runway. It's quite a story that I think I've told before.
Anyway, it'd be great to see Quitch up in the virtual skies with my father at the yoke! Thanks again for your support!
Hey Dan! Maybe it's time for some more 345th photos from Warpath!
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/116_1117080887_quitch.jpg)
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awesome. nice picture!
voted for the B25 one last time, hope we get the chance to honor your dad, Toad.
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Last and final vote B25 (crosses fingers).
Some things in life are worthwhile....some aren't. Voting for the B25 to honor someone who is related to the AH Community is worthwhile. Voting for a P39 a marginal fighter at best is not worthwhile imho. Especially when we can make someone so very important happy and do him the honor that he deserves.
WTG Quitch! I want to see that skin in the Hangar.
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Originally posted by Toad
Puck, he's right in Lincoln, about 70th and Van Dorn I think.
He's got a puter, I just don't think it will run AH. It's an E-machine we bought him last fall from Best Buy. Decent for what he does, e-mail and surf the news but I don't think it would be a gamer.
Appreciate the offer; if the B-25 makes the cut, maybe we can try to work something out.
If this happens Toad, PM me please. I'll scurry about and try to be there too.
All the Best,
hap
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I have to wonder how stuff like this came about. Take a bomber, add a bunch of young guys working on it and flying it, and all of a sudden someone puts 8 extra heavy machineguns in the nose, and then on to field artillery and anything else that can be shoehorned into it.
What led up to this?
Lol reminds me of a Tim Allen routine
"Well...I modified it"
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I have to wonder how stuff like this came about. Take a bomber, add a bunch of young guys working on it and flying it, and all of a sudden someone puts 8 extra heavy machineguns in the nose, and then on to field artillery and anything else that can be shoehorned into it.
What led up to this?
Necessity is the mother of invention?
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Originally posted by thndregg
Necessity is the mother of invention?
Looking at the TV remote, I'd say laziness is :D
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Originally posted by Toad
From my point of view, this is solely as an honor to my father.
What ever plane they choose won't change the game. Most of the choices getting touted will be primarily hangar queens in the MA. They might see some use in special events but the vast majority of the player base doesn't participate.
So the what the game needs approach falls on deaf ears with me. Another airplane is not what the game needs. It doesn't matter what plane or how many planes are added.
What the game needs is people who like to fight in airplanes against other airplanes; sadly, that isn't going to happen.
So, they're just adding planes; might as well be one that I see a good reason to add, even if that reason has nothing to do with the game.
I'm with you on this Toad. My father in law passed away a few years ago. He trained in B-26's in Tampa, flew B-25's in combat in the South Pacific (42nd BG), did his tour and then was an instructor training the Chinese in Columbia SC in B-25's and A-26's. He left me with countless stories. After he passed, I found his Squadron Book, flight records and a few other articles that he had kept for 60 years.
The B-25 was always his favorite and I had voted for it on sentimental reasons.
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Toad,
I also live in Lincoln and if there is anything I can do to help out let me know.
RELIC
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Thanks, Relic!
We'll see if the C strafer gets in; shouldn't be too long a wait.
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he's right in Lincoln, about 70th and Van Dorn I think.
I know exactly where that is, I grew up in Lincoln. :D
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He's in the Legacy there; I don't remember the exact address but I know how to get there!
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Congratulations on the B25's victory, Toad. I hope we get the same model your dad flew.:aok