Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dago on March 29, 2007, 07:55:57 PM
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Gerry Steckmyer and his wife awoke to a loud commotion and were shocked by what they saw out their bedroom window—a deranged man was shouting and jumping on the roof of their car. Police say that when Mr. Steckmyer opened the window and shouted at the man to get off the car, the man walked toward the house and started trying to break in. He kicked the home’s front door and slammed his shoulder into it. Steckmyer repeatedly told the man to leave and warned that police were on the way, but there was no stopping the man’s odd behavior. He grabbed a 5-gallon water cooler bottle, smashed in a window and entered the home. When the intruder neared the master bedroom, Steckmyer shot him with a handgun, killing him. (The Press Democrat, Santa Rosa, CA, 12/18/06)
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A 21-year-old man was eating pizza with his mother and a friend when someone knocked on the door. According to police, when the friend opened the door, two intruders burst inside and put a gun to his head. The man’s mother sought refuge in a bedroom while he ran downstairs to retrieve a firearm. Confused, one of the intruders asked where everyone went, then said he’d kill anyone he found. In response to the threat, the 21-year-old reemerged, shooting and killing one intruder and causing his accomplice to flee. (Post-Tribune, Merrillville, IN, 12/03/06)
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Police say a 16-year-old gang member wearing a ski mask and toting a .22 rifle knocked on a front door north of Chicago one night. Inside,
Saffiyya Darr and her husband called out to ask who it was, but got no reply. Several minutes later they heard a loud sound coming from their back door, and Darr ran to her bedroom to get a 9 mm pistol. When the suspect forced his way inside, she shot him twice. He died at the scene. “If you are sitting at home at night and someone kicks the door open, you have the right to defend yourself,” said Police Chief Douglas Malcolm. (Lake
Country News-Sun, Waukegan, IL, 12/04/06)
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There is a sign on Abel Sisneros’ home warning, “Nothing inside is worth risking your life for. Owners of this property are highly skilled to protect life, liberty and property from criminal attacks.” Authorities, however, say an intruder failed to heed the warning. Sisneros heard a pounding at the front door and grabbed his 9 mm handgun as a precaution. He was at the top of the stairs when the suspect broke through the locked front door. Sisneros fired two shots. The wounded burglar groaned and ran to the back of the house until police arrested him. “He couldn’t get out of the back [of the home], and he knew I was still in the front of the house, so he was trapped,” Sisneros explained. (The Fort-Worth Star-Telegram, Fort Worth, TX, 12/22/06)
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Upon witnessing someone breaking into his neighbor’s home, a man immediately called the couple who live there. Police say the couple immediately returned home and found the burglar inside trying to remove a television set. The male homeowner confronted the suspect, who drew a pocketknife and struck the homeowner’s hand, cutting him. That’s when the homeowner pulled a .22 pistol and fired two shots, wounding the intruder and causing him to flee. He was later apprehended. When a local reporter asked Knoxville, Tenn., policeman Mark Pressley the impertinent question of whether the couple would be charged in the incident, he replied, “They’re kind of the innocent victims here. They’ve had enough problems.” (News Sentinel, Knoxville, TN, 12/30/06)
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Police say a 17-year-old boy was home with his cousin when four armed men kicked in the door and started shooting. The teen rushed to grab his shotgun and fired at his assailants, killing two of them. The other suspects fled, but were later apprehended. “Truthfully, it was either them or me,” said the teen. “I’m thankful to be standing here today. I thank God.”
(KHOU 11 News, Houston, TX, 12/28/06)
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curval should be here shortly to post some stories about people being shot with less happy endings. ;)
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
curval should be here shortly to post some stories about people being shot with less happy endings. ;)
Why would you say that?
In the U.S. for 2001, there were 29,573 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 16,869; Homicide 11,348; Accident 802; Legal Intervention 323; Undetermined 231.(CDC, 2004) This makes firearms injuries one of the top ten causes of death in the U.S.
From the University of Utah Library of Medicine
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNINTRO.html
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"Guns don't kill people. APES with guns kill people." - Charles Heston, NRA
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If you, your wife, and your children are sleeping at home one night and an intruder breaks in; and hes after more than just some jewelry; statistics about gun deaths will all of a sudden seem pretty insignificant.
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or how to use your cricket bat and a pair of slightly soiled pink bermuda shorts to defeat any scooter thief.
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Originally posted by quintv
If you, your wife, and your children are sleeping at home one night and an intruder breaks in; and hes after more than just some jewelry; statistics about gun deaths will all of a sudden seem pretty insignificant.
Yeah, but I'm living single, and something tells me if I use the modified SKS in my defense, rather than one of the pistols, or shotgun, the local Asst DA will try to fry me.
What I really hate are all the "retreat" arguments that are prevalent in some areas. If you have a chance to retreat. If you have a chance to get away, or get out of YOUR house that is being invaded, that is the course you are supposed to take before taking the life of the intruder.
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This makes firearms injuries one of the top ten causes of death in the U.S.
Wow! That's even higher than like heart disease and stuff.
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Then use the pistol
(http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/fighting/fighting0010.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/evilgrin/evilgrin0024.gif)
(http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/happy/happy0144.gif)
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what are the other nine leading causes of death in the United States dynamite?
Lets have a full bodied discussion on all ten leading causes of death so that we might develop a better understanding of the problems affecting Amercians.
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here in my beloved florida if you frighten me I can kill you with whatever means available anywhere in town. people are very polite now in my beloved florida, even transplants from blue states.
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In the U.S. for 2001, there were 29,573 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 16,869; Homicide 11,348; Accident 802; Legal Intervention 323; Undetermined 231.(CDC, 2004) This makes firearms injuries one of the top ten causes of death in the U.S.
Well I'd take suicide off that right off the bat, they were suicides FFS, if they didn't use a firearm then the Fire department's would have to do a lot more cleanups at the bottom of tall buildings.
Other than that, 12k or so isn't all that bad for a nation thats supposedly this violent and this large (http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/happy/happy0203.gif)
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the homiocides are misleading as well. consider how many are thug v thug death matches usually commited with illegally acquired firearms. these aren't really crimes, they should be categorized as community service.
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Originally posted by Yeager
what are the other nine leading causes of death in the United States dynamite?
Lets have a full bodied discussion on all ten leading causes of death so that we might develop a better understanding of the problems affecting Amercians.
I would like to see that information too....
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How thats a big suicide rate in America for guns. Just think how many there are for hanging, jumping, or other forms. Why do we Americans hate ourselves so much?
That is something I'm worried about to. I have an SKS in my room incase someone breaks in. My neigborhood seats on a major traveled city road and my house is the first on the left. My house has been broken in once, and there have been about 4 attempts of break-ins. My dad has gotten his car stolen, and things stolen out of his car. I got a radio stolen out of my jeep. Thats why I keep the SKS in my room, but I'm worried that when I shot the intruder, or kill he/she the police will come and ask, What kind of gun did you use? Your bullets went threw the person, and threw the house? I used my SKS officer. Sir please turn around and put your hands behind your back! Would they take my SKS? I don't think they would.
I use a 123 GR Full Metal Jacket ammo. Isn't that kind of Armor piercing round with the copper cover?
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It doesn't matter what gun you use, they'll take it. It is evidence, because either you or the person you shot committed a crime, maybe both. A rifle of any sort is a poor choice for home defense, they're too long and they overpenetrate. If it's all you have, it's all you have. You MIGHT, eventually get it back. But do not count on it.
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The FMJ's aren't necessarily armor piercing but they will whistle right through a human at short range in most cases. OTOH, they are handy if your assailant is wearing body armor.
If you want something that won't penetrate as much, look at the Wolf 7.62x39 122gr Hollow Points. They make a big hole but they don't keep going and going and going like the Energizer bunny.
Which top 10 was that? Here's the list from 2003:
1. Diseases of heart 685,089
2. Malignant neoplasms (cancer) 556,902
3. Cerebrovascular diseases 157,689
4. Chronic lower respiratory diseases 126,382
5. Unintentional injuries 109,277
6. Diabetes mellitus 74,219
7. Influenza and pneumonia 65,163
8. Alzheimer's disease 63,457
9. Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis 42,453
10. Septicemia 34,069
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Imagine....if heart disease were outlawed, only outlaws would have heart disease.
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Originally posted by Yeager
what are the other nine leading causes of death in the United States dynamite?
Lets have a full bodied discussion on all ten leading causes of death so that we might develop a better understanding of the problems affecting Amercians.
From what i found during a quick search...
1 Diseases of heart (I00-I09, I11, I13, I20-I51) 725,192 265.9
2 Malignant neoplasms, including neoplasms of lymphatic and hematopoietic tissues (C00-C97) 549,838 201.6
3 Cerebrovascular diseases (I60-I69) 167,366 61.4
4 Chronic lower respiratory diseases (J40-J47) 124,181 45.5
5 Accidents (unintentional injuries) (V01-X59, Y85-Y86) 89,703 34.1
6 Diabetes mellitus (E10-E14) 68,399 25.1
7 Influenza and pneumonia (J10-J18) 63,730 23.4
8 Alzheimer's disease (G30) 44,536 16.3
9 Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis (N00-N07, N17-N19, N25-N27) 35,525 13.0
Now... if comparing them to this list... well there are a lot of things in the world of health and medicine that we need to be wary of...
But if you ask me, the more interesting statistic is the number of legal/"clean kills" vs the number of accidental shootings, homicides, and suicides. That would be 554 (i'm throwing in the "undetermined" as legal kills just to make you happy) vs 29,046 deaths... or a whopping 1.9% of all gun deaths in the US were "justified"
Way to go guys!!!
Now... let me say this. I'm a liberal...it's pretty obvious I know. But surprisingly enough... even with those horrific stats above... I DON'T WANT YOUR GUNS! Keep them! They're your right. Enjoy! I only responded because while I'm happy for the few examples listed by Dago who had positive outcomes, I just wanted to point out that the vast majority don't have positive outcomes. Just offering a little perspective.
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Why include suicides?
The "clean kills" don't take into account the incidences where the intruder/assailant wasn't killed or injured at all by the way.
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Stats in Criminal Justice are skewered to benefit either side of the room. I ignore em.
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how many crimes were prevented last year by law abiding people using firearms? dynamite, can you find that stat? I would greatly appreciate you posting that statistic.
Thanks, man.
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Originally posted by quintv
Why include suicides?
The "clean kills" don't take into account the incidences where the intruder/assailant wasn't killed or injured at all by the way.
You're right... I was just comparing gun deaths and not including deterred assaults/ B&E's. But I leave it up to the pro gun folks to provide that statistic.
I included Suicides because while someone earlier said something like "they'd just jump of buildings" or something to that effect... its not necessarily true. Women actually have more suicide attempts then men, but the successful suicide rate is nearly 5x greater for men than women. Thats because men use means of higher lethality, ie guns.
I work in mental health... and quite frankly, anything that will lower the risk of a successful suicide is pretty sweet in my book. I guess I've seen to many families torn apart by this.
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Originally posted by Yeager
how many crimes were prevented last year by law abiding people using firearms? dynamite, can you find that stat? I would greatly appreciate you posting that statistic.
Thanks, man.
I just looked for a few minutes... but I got really conflicting numbers so I'm not too sure. Obviously, the folks who aren't big fans of guns don't tend to publish that statistic...
But the few pro gun websites I came across had differing numbers, and neither said where they got their data from. One said that 1million crimes are prevented annually, the other said 2.5million crimes are prevented annually thats kind of a bid difference. I don't know where they're getting their numbers from though. I'll check out the CDC and the GAO and see if I can find anything bud.
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quote:In the U.S. for 2001, there were 29,573 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 16,869; Homicide 11,348; Accident 802; Legal Intervention 323; Undetermined 231.(CDC, 2004) This makes firearms injuries one of the top ten causes of death in the U.S.
No where NEAR the top ten.
43,443 people died in auto accidents in 2005.
42,884 people died in auto accidents in 2003 to add to the top ten list above.
42,196 people died in 2001, the year of the quoted stat.
Throw out big numbers and make unsubstantiated, or down right wrong, claims. Modern information, political, and statistical tactics are fun. Anyone can play!
"Guns don't kill people! Cars kill people!" "Save a life! Shoot up a Car!"
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Originally posted by tedrbr
No where NEAR the top ten.
43,443 people died in auto accidents in 2005.
42,884 people died in auto accidents in 2003 to add to the top ten list above.
42,196 people died in 2001, the year of the quoted stat.
Throw out big numbers and make unsubstantiated, or down right wrong, claims. Modern information, political, and statistical tactics are fun. Anyone can play!
"Guns don't kill people! Cars kill people!" "Save a life! Shoot up a Car!"
Well, tell that to the University of Utah School of Medicine... that's where I got my information from :aok
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Originally posted by DYNAMITE
Well, tell that to the University of Utah School of Medicine... that's where I got my information from :aok
The irony..... Latest statistics actually show that 225,000 people die every year due to some form of medical malpractice. :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by VooWho
What kind of gun did you use? Your bullets went threw the person, and threw the house? I used my SKS officer. Sir please turn around and put your hands behind your back! Would they take my SKS? I don't think they would.
Have you kicked around getting a shotgun or pistol for home defense? Using a rifle in a populated area could get get you in trouble for obvious reasons. I had to use my AR-15 to defend myself and my father once. I found myself trying to position myself to where if I had to shoot the bastard, my round wouldnt go through him and in to my neighbors house. At the same time I was trying to get between him and my dad. It was something I really didnt want to have to fool with at that point in time. Lesson learned I keep my Winchester Defender ready to go instead of grabbing the first long gun I see in the cabinet.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Imagine....if heart disease were outlawed, only outlaws would have heart disease.
:rofl I always get a crack out of those commercials saying that the number one killer of americans is heart disease. NO **** SHERLOCK. Pretty much everything is ****ed if your heart is sick.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
The irony..... Latest statistics actually show that 225,000 people die every year due to some form of medical malpractice. :rofl :rofl :rofl
That is pretty damn funny :rofl
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I included Suicides because while someone earlier said something like "they'd just jump of buildings" or something to that effect... its not necessarily true. Women actually have more suicide attempts then men, but the successful suicide rate is nearly 5x greater for men than women. Thats because men use means of higher lethality, ie guns.
But it is kinda true. Maybe women have more "calls for attention" than men. Some people, for a variety of reasons, want to really kill themselves while others just want some attention. If they want attention, they make sure it something with low immediate lethality. If not, well, they just do it. Use a gun, step in front of a train, the running car in the garage... whatever. Take the woman who killed three innocent people near Skokie last year by ramming their car with hers when she tried -- unsuccessfully -- to check out. Given the area I imagine she couldn't easily access a firearm, or found them too scary. Too bad for the bystanders.
It's not like sticking a pistol in your mouth and pulling the trigger (or jumping off a building or stepping in front of a train, etc.) is a cry for help. You really want to go, versus dowining a bottle of prescription meds 15 minutes before mom and dad return from work.
But does gun possession in society lead to a particularly high suicide rate? Not really good research below on the specific issue, but on the surface apparently nothing obvious. If you look at percapita suicide rates (per 100,000) all of these countries lead the US. I would imagine virtuall all of these have lower gun ownership per capita, in some cases MUCH lower. Yet, for those who want to go they find a way and in the US a gun is certainly a viable choice...
Lithuania 73.7 13.7
Russian Federation 72.9 13.7
Estonia 64.3 14.1
Latvia 59.5 11.8
Kazakhstan 51.9 9.5
Hungary 49.2 15.6
Belarus 48.7 9.6
Slovenia 48.0 13.9
Sri Lanka 44.7 16.6
Finland 38.7 10.7
Ukraine 38.2 9.2
Croatia 34.2 11.3
Republic of Moldova 30.9 6.2
Switzerland 30.9 12.2
France 30.4 10.8
Austria 30.0 10.0
Luxembourg 29.0 9.8
Belgium 26.7 11.0
Cuba 25.6 14.9
Bulgaria 25.3 9.7
Denmark 24.3 9.8
Japan 24.3 11.5
Poland 24.1 4.6
Czech Republic 24.0 6.8
New Zealand 23.6 5.8
Germany 22.1 8.1
Yugoslavia 21.6 9.2
Canada (Details) 21.5 5.4
Romania 21.1 4.3
Mauritius 20.6 6.4
Sweden 20.0 8.5
United States of America (Details) 19.3 4.4
[edit: personally, if I ever did want to check out -- AND I DONT--I think a firearm would be too risky, with a high potential for an even more miserable life after a failed attempt. A train or a tall building is hard to screw up]
Charon
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there's no doubt that people who really want to kill themselves will find a way to do it...
But the people that make suicidal gestures for attention with a gun are more likely to accidentally do it right. Thats all.
But you make a good point Charon.
Oh btw, I'm having trouble interpreting the stats you listed... take the US for example... is that saying there are 19.3/100k or 4.4/100k.
Thanks-
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Originally posted by DYNAMITE
there's no doubt that people who really want to kill themselves will find a way to do it...
But the people that make suicidal gestures for attention with a gun are more likely to accidentally do it right. Thats all.
But you make a good point Charon.
Oh btw, I'm having trouble interpreting the stats you listed... take the US for example... is that saying there are 19.3/100k or 4.4/100k.
Thanks-
If someone decides putting a Revolver up to their temple is a good, "safe" way to cry for help/attention.
Maybe the gene pool is better for them having made their point,,,,albeit a little too well (http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/cool/cool0007.gif)
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Oh btw, I'm having trouble interpreting the stats you listed... take the US for example... is that saying there are 19.3/100k or 4.4/100k.
Sorry, that's male/female
Interestingly, it seems to run 4-1 or 3-1 pretty consistantly throughout the world, though in a few cases it gets close to a 2-1 ratio and in others 6-1
Charon
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Stats in Criminal Justice are skewered to benefit either side of the room. I ignore em.
Our new mayor demanded a drop in crime... from that day forward we no longer took felony burglary reports on 'beer runs' unless there were investigatable leads. We also stopped taking 246PC reports unless we found bullet holes / investigatable leads.
In one month wouldn't ya know, the C.O.P proudly reported to the city counsel that through his leadership and the 'relentless' efforts of his officers, felony crimes went down 15% and "gun related" crimes were down over 20%.
Everyone clapped.
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To my way of thinking the suicides that happened and a gun was involved are actually in the number of succesfull shootings where the outcome was excactly what was wanted. They're NOT accidental deaths. Those folks wanted to die and they used the proper tool to make that happen. The guns did their jobs.
End of story.
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echo reply | /dev/tasteless
Halle Berry tried to kill herself using the car in garage method... Just think, if she'd used a gun we would have been spared "catwoman".
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Doctors are 3 times as deadly as guns. So why is the AMA targeting firearms?
Culture/Society Editorial
Source: NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY
Author: Steve Dasbach
Posted on 07/04/2001 05:25:50 PDT by winner45
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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NEWS FROM THE LIBERTARIAN PARTY
2600 Virginia Avenue, NW, Suite 100
Washington DC 20037
World Wide Web: http://www.LP.org
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For release: July 1, 2001
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For additional information:
George Getz, Press Secretary
Phone: (202) 333-0008 Ext. 222
E-Mail: pressreleases@hq.LP.org
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Doctors are 3 times as deadly as guns.
So why is the AMA targeting firearms?
WASHINGTON, DC -- Doctors kill three times as many people every
year as guns do -- which is why the new head of the American Medical
Association should stop crusading against guns and target incompetent
physicians instead, say Libertarians.
"Message to the AMA: Doctor control would save far more lives
than gun control," said Steve Dasbach, national director of the
Libertarian Party.
"Instead of adopting a political agenda and working to
eliminate the Second Amendment, doctors should adopt a medical agenda
and work to eliminate deadly, derelict doctors."
Last week, Dr. Richard Corlin sparked a huge controversy by
adopting "gun safety" as his platform when he was inaugurated as
president of the American Medical Association.
Citing "an epidemic of handgun violence," Corlin demanded an
increased firearms research budget for the federal Centers for Disease
Control, and more studies of trigger locks and ways to reduce
accidental shootings.
But Corlin failed to mention that, according to studies,
doctors kill three times as many Americans each year as guns do, said
Dasbach.
"According to a report by the Institute of Medicine, 98,000
Americans are killed every year by medical errors," he noted. "By
contrast, 30,708 gun-related deaths occurred in 1998 -- meaning
incompetent doctors are more than three times as deadly as guns."
The Institute's 1999 report called the medical error rate
"stunningly high" and cited "horrific cases" of malpractice, such as a
man who had the wrong leg amputated by a sloppy surgeon.
"If Corlin is concerned about saving lives, why isn't he
campaigning to keep scalpels out of the hands of slipshod surgeons?"
asked Dasbach. "Or demanding background checks for doctors, federal
lawsuits against the medical industry, or a 'cooling off' period to
keep doctors who have just injured a patient out of the operating room
for a few days?"
Corlin's campaign against guns also violates the Hippocratic
Oath of "First Do No Harm," Dasbach pointed out.
"Americans use guns to defend themselves 2.4 million times a
year, according to the Gun Owners Foundation," he said. "So Corlin's
anti-gun agenda could harm -- or even kill -- 2.4 million innocent
Americans every year. That's medical malpractice on a grand scale."
Corlin ought to consider how he would react if the tables were
turned, said Dasbach.
"Imagine the response from doctors if the president of the
National Rifle Association started attacking an 'epidemic of operating
room violence' -- and began campaigning for more medical malpractice
lawsuits," he said. "Yet that's exactly what the AMA has been doing for
years. These physicians have been targeting guns instead of something
they actually have control over: Their incompetent colleagues who are
killing 98,000 of their own patients every year."
The fact is, gun violence isn't a medical issue, it's a
criminal issue, said Dasbach.
"People who use a gun to commit a crime should be arrested and
prosecuted -- which is the job of the police, not doctors," he said.
"Honest, peaceful gun owners should be left alone by misguided doctors
masquerading as politicians.
"In other words, doctors, heal thyselves -- instead of wasting
your time attacking an industry that saves millions of lives every
year."
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Originally posted by Charon
[snip]..............think a firearm would be too risky, with a high potential for an even more miserable life after a failed attempt.
Charon
I saw that once on Ogrish, the loser sucked so bad at life he missed his brain from under his chin. Of course he was missing his jaw and everything in a cone all the way to his eye. I am pretty sure he "lived" too
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I remember reading about a guy who tried to kill himself with a drill press... He ended up with a handful of 3 inch deep holes into his brain before he gave up.
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Originally posted by eagl
I remember reading about a guy who tried to kill himself with a drill press... He ended up with a handful of 3 inch deep holes into his brain before he gave up.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
(Guess ya gotta have brains in the first place in order to hit the sweet spot when drilling! ;) )
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13.. I think that the number of justified homicides or, at least the percentage is a little off... first of all.. I don't consider a suicide as being a homicide. second.. I am not sure if all the gangbangers shooting each other is really a homicide... How many were of guys who are frieghtened to have a gun? who could have saved themselves or others had they the guts to be armed? How many actual shootouts do the good guys lose and would they have been better off if only the criminal was armed?
But what is most important is that defense of ones home or self or other citizens does not have to involve homicide. How many homicides or... more basic... how many crimes a year are prevented by armed citizens?
the most conservative number the FBI comes up with is about 1.5 million times a year. If only 1% of those would have been murders or resulted in the death of the good guy.. we are talking about guns preventing 15,000 deaths of the good guys a year... if we figure that even 10% would have resulted in the good guy getting injured if he didn't have the gun we are talking 150,000 prevented injuries a year. All the numbers are most likely very low.
People are getting killed and injured here because gutless women are disarming citizens and not imposing long sentences on criminals using guns... They have no trouble handing out long sentences to otherwise law abiding citizens tho... look at england... a rape or an assault is a lesser sentence that owning a gun.
People are getting killed because some here are too weak and cowardly to carry a firearm and defend themselves and others.
lazs
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My ex-girlfriend's brother tried one of those call-for-attention suicides, and failed. He tried to shoot himself in the head with a shotgun, and failed, which is depressing considering he is an ex-Marine.
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Homicide 11,348; Accident 802; Legal Intervention 323;
Interesting proportions.
:aok
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I wonder how many "accidents" really weren't? I wonder how many unsolved homicides were justified?
lazs
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Smoking kills 400,000 Americans a year. Why in the heck is anyone worried about guns when tobacco is a much greater danger?
Misplaced priority due to the fear of guns by women and girlymen.
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Originally posted by Dago
Smoking kills 400,000 Americans a year. Why in the heck is anyone worried about guns when tobacco is a much greater danger?
Misplaced priority due to the fear of guns by women and girlymen.
Girlymen? hehehehehhe :rofl :rofl :rofl
Here I always thought guns were for radish$...
Different perspectives I guess :rolleyes: :rofl
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Originally posted by DYNAMITE
Girlymen? hehehehehhe :rofl :rofl :rofl
Here I always thought guns were for radish$...
Different perspectives I guess :rolleyes: :rofl
I suppose it depends on the situation. 2 guys get in an argument. Guy 1 punches guy 2 and guy 2 immediatly goes for a gun, yeah he's a girlyman. A real man wouldn't go for a gun in that situation unless guy 1 was 6'4" and 250 and guy 2 was 5'2" and a buck o five soaking wet then I could see it.
My personal thoughts about using a gun is this. In public I'll use the minimum force needed to difuse the situation. If a simple fist fight is all that's needed fine. However anyone coming into my home is going to be looking down the barrel of a 12 gage shotgun. I don't care who it is. At that point the intruder has already demonstrated malicious intent and will be delt with accordingly.
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So your definition of courage is levelling the odds?
I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this girlyman thing
Ravs
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If your asking me that question I'll say that courage has nothing to do with it. My point is that many times a gun is pulled when it's not justified. If I'm confonted with someone my own size and something happens, such as a bar fight or the like, I'm not going to pull a pistol and stick it in their face unless they have a weapon of their own. A fist fight is a fist fight and a real man will treat it as such win or loose as long as the odds are fairly even to begin with. Now 3 guys try to jump one guy, hell yeah pull a gun. The odds are not on your side. It's all subjective, but I've known people that would pull a gun just because someone talked bad to them.
Like I said though, any home invasion, weapon or not, they will be greeted with maximum firepower.
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Fair enough. And I entirely agree with you.
If the fackers are trying to invade my home and if on balance they're more likely to be armed, I'd be armed to give them a hot greeting and i'd have had the foresight to have had training.
What I find irritating is gun lobby people who say that if you're not armed somehow you've got less courage.
Ravs
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I don't believe I have ever seen anyone on the pro personal firearm side say that a person who refuses to admit the importance that one should personally be armed for the greater good lacks courage. I think the message is that such a person lacks wisdom. my take on the matter is If you live in a society that does not allow you to defend your life or property with any means necessary then you are not a free person but a subject of your government. I would not live in a society such as that.
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I think it funny that some here are so naive... they have never been confronted by three thugs while alone... I think that they would turn that nice shade of grey and pee themselves... before they got beaten or killed..
Guns are for ******* in some cases... Women are the fastest growing segment of the concealed carry and new gun owners... next comes older people... One could say that they are being realistic... they are being smart and pragmatic.
Through experiance they know that they are victims... they also know that all the "brave" guys here who "don't need guns" will run away at the first sign of trouble... if they want to be safe they have to do it themselves. they know that the anti gun guys are too gutless to help.
If I get into a situation... I would rather have one guy with a concealed carry permit (or just a gun) than a dozen of the anti gun wussies on this board. Not one of em gives me any feeling of confidence..
I hear a lot of talk from them but I know how they would react when faced with superior numbers or a weapon like a knife or even a bat. It does me no good to say I told you so while they are peeing themselves and running... I just want to not have to count on them.
I write off anti gun sentiment to either ignorance or some deep seated phobia of weapons or... some fear of taking action.
In any case.. I have no use for these people. I just wish they would go away and leave me alone. I know I can't count on em for anything except attacking my rights. No matter what their reasons.. I find their actions evil.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I think it funny that some here are so naive... they have never been confronted by three thugs while alone... I think that they would turn that nice shade of grey and pee themselves... before they got beaten or killed..
Guns are for ******* in some cases... Women are the fastest growing segment of the concealed carry and new gun owners... next comes older people... One could say that they are being realistic... they are being smart and pragmatic.
Through experiance they know that they are victims... they also know that all the "brave" guys here who "don't need guns" will run away at the first sign of trouble... if they want to be safe they have to do it themselves. they know that the anti gun guys are too gutless to help.
If I get into a situation... I would rather have one guy with a concealed carry permit (or just a gun) than a dozen of the anti gun wussies on this board. Not one of em gives me any feeling of confidence..
I hear a lot of talk from them but I know how they would react when faced with superior numbers or a weapon like a knife or even a bat. It does me no good to say I told you so while they are peeing themselves and running... I just want to not have to count on them.
I write off anti gun sentiment to either ignorance or some deep seated phobia of weapons or... some fear of taking action.
In any case.. I have no use for these people. I just wish they would go away and leave me alone. I know I can't count on em for anything except attacking my rights. No matter what their reasons.. I find their actions evil.
lazs
You never know how you will react in a situation Lasz...
For example... I was a victim of an ATTEMPTED car jacking... 3 people vs me... And no, I wasn't packing... and yes i fought back... and yes they were armed, and yes I got stabbed (2 times through the forearm and a graze across my chest)
I fought back Lasz... and I got my keys back. Broke one dudes nose. They ended up running from me. I chased one them 3 blocks AFTER I had already got my keys back.
So please don't speak to me of a fear of taking action. Please don't speak to me of being a "wussie" or whatever weak name you come up with next. And please don't assume that just because some of us choose not carry we won't intervene.
If you want to discuss the merits of gun ownership thats fine. Like I've said before...I don't care if you choose to carry. But DO NOT lower the discussion to name calling or baseless assumptions on your part. Talk about showing weakness... weakness of mind that is.
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well... now you and I both know how we would react. You got stabbed. I didn't.
I also think that you might be a young guy in good shape. I think it pretty short sighted that you may think you will always be such. How do you think the situation you describe would go down if you were in a wheelchair or say 70 years old tho?
What if you were a woman?
You can choose not to carry... 90% do choose to not carry.. That is fine but your story proves my point not yours. If you could think past your bicep and prejudice you would realize that you got lucky...
lucky that the thugs were not better at their job or got distracted.. lucky that they caught you at a time in your life when you were both willing and, more importantly, able to come out ahead.
your story only proves that there are groups of thugs out there willing to attack people with knives. If you continue to fear firearms as you age or become infirm...
You had best hope that someone with the guts to carry will come to your aid
THE NEXT TIME.
I know you don't get it. I know that you didn't understand a word I wrote. maybe someone else reading it will get it tho. You will probably get it at some point in your life.
lazs
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Originally posted by Hornet33
If your asking me that question I'll say that courage has nothing to do with it. My point is that many times a gun is pulled when it's not justified. If I'm confonted with someone my own size and something happens, such as a bar fight or the like, I'm not going to pull a pistol and stick it in their face unless they have a weapon of their own. A fist fight is a fist fight and a real man will treat it as such win or loose as long as the odds are fairly even to begin with. Now 3 guys try to jump one guy, hell yeah pull a gun. The odds are not on your side. It's all subjective, but I've known people that would pull a gun just because someone talked bad to them.
Like I said though, any home invasion, weapon or not, they will be greeted with maximum firepower.
I doubt by your statement you have a CCW, nor do you understand the issues that come with carrying it.
If you are carrying, you will do everything possible to avoid a physical confrontation, because you know your weapon could become dislodged and fall free, or the other person might take it from your holster while in contact.
A fistfight while carrying is the very last thing you want, and you do not want to ever have to pull your weapon, so you learn to avoid confrontation to the point of retreating if necessary and can be done safely.
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Originally posted by Dago
I doubt by your statement you have a CCW, nor do you understand the issues that come with carrying it.
If you are carrying, you will do everything possible to avoid a physical confrontation, because you know your weapon could become dislodged and fall free, or the other person might take it from your holster while in contact.
A fistfight while carrying is the very last thing you want, and you do not want to ever have to pull your weapon, so you learn to avoid confrontation to the point of retreating if necessary and can be done safely.
that pretty well nails it.
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Originally posted by Dago
I doubt by your statement you have a CCW, nor do you understand the issues that come with carrying it.
If you are carrying, you will do everything possible to avoid a physical confrontation, because you know your weapon could become dislodged and fall free, or the other person might take it from your holster while in contact.
A fistfight while carrying is the very last thing you want, and you do not want to ever have to pull your weapon, so you learn to avoid confrontation to the point of retreating if necessary and can be done safely.
No Lasz... I get what you're saying, but do you get what Dago is saying?
In my situation, everything happened so fast that if I had a weapon on me I'm quite sure I would have lost control of it. Then things may have turned out far worse.
You're right... I was lucky. There is no doubt. And like I said I respect your right and the rights of others to carry. You and others have described multiple situations where a firearm would be an asset.
In my situation it would have been a liability though.
The point of my post, which I think was missed, was to back off the assumptions that those of us who don't carry are cowards, fools, or otherwise unwilling to help. You were arguing your point by defaming your opponent rather than simply sticking with logic and facts. It's something that happens on these boards all the time, and I resent it.
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I have a CCW, but I don't bother carrying. I can if I ever feel the need, and may one of these days, but living where I do, it just hasn't struck me as something I need to do. Plus I am big enough to handle most problems without a gun.
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Originally posted by Dago
I doubt by your statement you have a CCW, nor do you understand the issues that come with carrying it.
If you are carrying, you will do everything possible to avoid a physical confrontation, because you know your weapon could become dislodged and fall free, or the other person might take it from your holster while in contact.
A fistfight while carrying is the very last thing you want, and you do not want to ever have to pull your weapon, so you learn to avoid confrontation to the point of retreating if necessary and can be done safely.
Actually I do have a CCP. I just renewed it again for anouther 5 years. I also follow the laws concerning it. I do not carry in a bar. I leave it in my truck. My point with my excample of a bar fight is I know people who would run to their car and pull their gun when it's not needed.
I'm also a trained Coast Guard boarding team member i.e. Federal Law Enforcement Officer and I know about weapons retention and also using the minimum force neccesary to compel compliance. I've been doing this type of thing for over 10 years.
I also study martial arts so I don't worry to much if I'm in a bar and someone starts getting out of hand. I fairly confident I can handle myself in a situation like that without resorting to pulling a weapon.
I'm also well aware of the moral obligation I have when I do carry. I don't go out looking for trouble, but if faced with a one on one situation, pulling my weapon is the last resort. In most cases it's not needed and that's based on my personal experiance.
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Thank you, Dynamite....that illustrated exactly what I was trying to say.
Ravs
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Originally posted by DYNAMITE
You're right... I was just comparing gun deaths and not including deterred assaults/ B&E's. But I leave it up to the pro gun folks to provide that statistic.
I included Suicides because while someone earlier said something like "they'd just jump of buildings" or something to that effect... its not necessarily true. Women actually have more suicide attempts then men, but the successful suicide rate is nearly 5x greater for men than women. Thats because men use means of higher lethality, ie guns.
I work in mental health... and quite frankly, anything that will lower the risk of a successful suicide is pretty sweet in my book. I guess I've seen to many families torn apart by this.
One of my brothers committed suicide a number of years ago. He didn't use a gun, he hung himself from a light fixture. Once someone becomes determined to end it all, it doesn't really matter what method they use.
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was to back off the assumptions that those of us who don't carry are cowards,
I need you to understand that the entire gun lobby does not feel this way. I won't speak for others but I will for myself: I believe whether you own/carry is a personal choice that each person makes based on criteria in his/her life. I do not feel those who choose not to carry are cowards.
I must add, however, I feel that those who choose not to carry and try to force laws upon me that would preclude me from carrying are the enemy of the Constitution and the enemy of my freedoms as an American citizen.
Choose whether or not to carry, leave that choice to me as well.
Steve
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I have an uncle that commited suicide... that is just a cowards way out. Having a gun had nothing to do with it... he was an ATF Officer.
We spend too much time defending the weak and supporting them.. they go have kids and carry on their families weak stance tradition.... thereby weakening the nation as a whole.
If someone does not chose to defend their family or protect their home.. it is of no consequence to me.... but don't say I can't.
rant rant rant.... oh and rave :aok
Last week 2 people died here because they had no gun...... the week before 2 criminals died, because they were not the only one's with a gun.
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Originally posted by storch
I don't believe I have ever seen anyone on the pro personal firearm side say that a person who refuses to admit the importance that one should personally be armed for the greater good lacks courage.
I'd rather some dude on the intardnet thinks I "lack courage", than be buried brave.
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Well, I'm late getting to this discussion, but let me offer up a few points for thought.
The use of deadly force in defense of one's life, the lives of one's family, and of one's property, has been seen by most, since before the dawn of civilization, as an inalienable right of the individual. The type of weapon used to carry out that defense was of no consequence as far as the ruling governments were concerned. The criminal class was rightly seen as being composed of predatory scum with no redeeming social qualities and was treated as such.
Being unwilling to spend vast amounts of money to incarcerate murderous thugs, these countries simply did away with them. While such a policy might do little to control a psychopath, it sent a chilling message to the punks and "gang-bangers": If caught, you're dead.
As a consequence, most countries possessing local and central governments composed of men with a pragmatic approach to law enforcement and a hard-nosed resolve have been largely able to control their streets and their criminal class. Such a government made no attempt to disarm the law-abiding who, knowing that their government had their backs, fought back with a vengeance.
If our streets are now unsafe it is because that type of government, at least at the national level, no longer exists in the United States.
Law enforcement policy no longer condones individual resistance, it condemns it. That policy is controlled by elements within our society that believe that its' criminal elements should be "rehabilitated," and if they cannot be rehabilited, murderers and psychopaths should be incarcerated in perpetuity.
As a result, the criminal no longer has to fear for his life, except under the following circumstances: running afoul of other criminals; running afoul of an armed citizen. In the second instance, the very governments charged with maintaining the security of our streets are, in effect, aiding that criminal class in taking control of our streets.
The righteous citizen who uses deadly force in defense of life, family, and property is no longer seen as being part of the solution to controlling the violent criminal. That citizen is seen, by certain elements within our government, as being no better than the criminals themselves.
There's the rub. Those elements that control the government have used its authority, and the power of the media, to bring about a sea-change in the way the government perceives its' own citizens....and in how those citizens perceive themselves and their neighbors. Now, as a result, many in our society no long trust their fellow citizens to correctly assess a threat and react responsibly.
Instead of executing violent criminals, that government incarcerates them, and tries to rehabilitate them. A life-sentence carries no fear for them for the imposition of such a sentence by the courts is a mere formality, and they may well be back on the streets in a few years, filled with rage and hardened by physical labor and an idiotic system that allows them to have boxing equipment and barbells to work out with.
That rage and that body stands a very good chance of being turned loose on society, and a population that no long believes that it can use deadly force to resist and believes that it is unjustified in doing so. Indeed that population believes that the use of deadly force places them "on the criminals' level."
And THAT is why the elderly and the weak and the very young and the lone individual can no longer walk the streets safely. Street gangs and a rampant drug-culture are merely symptoms of this larger problem.
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dynomite.. I disagree with your assessment of the situation even tho you were there and I was not.
If you had a gun and you were trained and confident in it's use you would have been able to make the situation (for you) better.
often, just the air of confidence is enough... worst case, brandishing is plenty.. even worse.. them guys are crazy kind of situation... well.. you shoot. You don't get into shouting matches or fistfights when you are carrying... you are more polite not less. If everyone in ny city had a firearm for instance... you wouldn't hear the obcenities yelled at each other like you do walking the streets in that crap hole.
obviously.. not every single person who will not carry is a coward. There are way too many instances of people watching assaults and even rapes or killings and saying after that "there was nothing I could do" far more than the stories of unarmed people coming to the aid of their fellows. If nothing else... an unarmed man is pretty useless in those situations.
I also agree that I don't care if you carry but.... when you think you have the right to vote on my being armed or not then you are a cowardly enemy of me and all other citizens.
If you are afraid of firearms or don't understand em then stay away from em.. don't talk about em and don't try to mess with other peoples rights. Just ignore em and be glad that so many law abiding citizens do have the guts and are willing to take the responsibility to carry.
Might as well fear cops having firearms.
lazs