Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hubsonfire on March 30, 2007, 10:06:15 PM
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I'm curious about the armament options for some of the planes in the voting. I know you love "when" questions, so I won't go there regarding the perked ord setup, but with some of the candidates having fielded wild cannon setups (BK5, 8 x20mms, 75mm howitzers, nucular weponz, etc), would you be willing to comment on what we would see ingame should the 410, B-25, A-26 etc be the chosen plane?
I would think this would have a definite impact on the voting, and while this might cause people to vote more for the weapon than the plane, it would be interesting to know exactly which models we're voting for.
Also, there's been a persistant rumor that none of the uber gunned planes would ever make into the game (Tse Tse mossie whatever, B25 with the cannon, A-26 with the cannon, PK5 on the 410, etc etc), but it seems that there might not be any truth to this. Is this simply a misunderstanding regarding some past conversations, or has there been a change in perspective in Grapevine? Variants like these could certainly add some interesting variables to the game, and also would really compliment the perked ord thingy, which I've heard is coming out in 2 weeks.
Anyways, it seems these questions keep surfacing in the various threads, so I thought I'd start a thread discussing them to keep any relevant information from getting buried.
Thanks in advance for responding with the answers I want to hear. :)
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I don't think big guns are a problem. All this big guns we hear people talk about are really heavy and were installed in big heavy twin engine planes.
This are not the planes to wipe out the arena. They are still big heavy sluggish sitting ducks against single engine fighters.
Just looking at a photo of those guns you realize those were big guns. Big guns have really low rate of fire and kick like a mule. You'll probably have to aim again after every shot.
The 75mm cannon on the B-25 was manually loaded so it will have the rate of fire of a panzer.:lol
Bk5 is a 50mm cannon with high muzzle velocity that will have powerful recoil. The Me-410 in itself is not the best plane to wonder around agile single engine fighters even without the huge cannon on board.
This planes won't be deadly enough to mess up the balance of the game, but a lot of people could have a lot of fun playing around with them.
If i'm in the gunsight of a B25 in shooting range he can kill me just as easy with the eight fifty cals, or the Me-410 could just as easy blow me to pieces with six 20mm cannons or 2x20mm+2x30mm cannons.
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Oh, I agree, I don't think those setups are gamebreakers, but I would like to know what we can expect to see in the way of variants, and which ones I'm actually voting for. I would be pleased with just about anything new, yet there are certain models of each type that I simply wouldn't be interested in, and I hope I'm not voting for those inadvertently.
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A large cannon like the 75 could do several things, like knock down hangars, take out GV's, one-shot bombers, etc.
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Many planes currently do the same things, Frode. Any bomber can drop hangars, the Il, Hurri, and Yak can take out GVs, and the yak also does quite a number on bombers.
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cc, true Furb, but when ord is dropped at a field, A hvy cannon armed B-25 would be used quite a bit until resupply brings the field back up. You see this in the Arena's, someone porks ord at a base, suddenly all the 110G's come out for a counter-offensive.
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It definitely would affect my vote..
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
cc, true Furb, but when ord is dropped at a field, A hvy cannon armed B-25 would be used quite a bit until resupply brings the field back up. You see this in the Arena's, someone porks ord at a base, suddenly all the 110G's come out for a counter-offensive.
I think given the slow rate of fire, if I'm planning on plinking M3's or LVT's, I'll take the J model strafer vs. the H model with the 75mm.
Furball, I think, at least for planes like the B-25, you're talking about model/version differences vs. a perked ord type setup. You can't put a 75mm in a C model B-25, for example, as it wouldn't be an option. So, again using the B-25, it would depend on how many variants they give us and which ones. At least that's how I look at it. It's not like a F4U-1A vs. F4U-1C kind of deal, so to speak (i.e. take the 6X.50 cal vs. 4X20mm).
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
cc, true Furb, but when ord is dropped at a field, A hvy cannon armed B-25 would be used quite a bit until resupply brings the field back up. You see this in the Arena's, someone porks ord at a base, suddenly all the 110G's come out for a counter-offensive.
Originally posted by Stoney74
Furball, I think, at least for planes like the B-25, you're talking about model/version differences vs. a perked ord type setup.
he is not Furball :mad:
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Originally posted by Ball
he is not Furball :mad:
Sorry, wasn't paying attention. I'll blame it on Frode for distracting me...
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
A large cannon like the 75 could do several things, like knock down hangars, take out GV's, one-shot bombers, etc.
Ok up a panzer and count how many shots needed to drop a hanger.
Just for a comparison it takes 2 rounds just to take out fuel, ammo or troops.
So dropping hangers will be unlikely.
Only gv that need fear is soft gv. Tanks need fear the Il-2/hurri IID more.
While it probably could 1 shot buffs.
Getting to alt and avoiding fighters will make getting into that position difficult.
Bronk
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Yeah, I was just using those two models to illustrate the point. The 410 had a lot of options, and the B-25 had a lot of models, and the difference between a clean 410, and one loaded to the gills with BFGs, or an early B-25 vs the H are dramatic in terms of armament, and presumably would have an impact upon how many people would vote for it.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
cc, true Furb, but when ord is dropped at a field, A hvy cannon armed B-25 would be used quite a bit until resupply brings the field back up. You see this in the Arena's, someone porks ord at a base, suddenly all the 110G's come out for a counter-offensive.
Lets see up a huge slow target... B-25 or say a yak -t, for m3 hunting?
hmmmm
Bronk
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from a thread given oh say 2 weeks ago. I tuck it that gun packs were going to be perked. F4's were used in the example 50's to 20 mm's etc. I assume this is a blanket perk across all planes. If this is so one would expect a 75 mm b25 tank buster to actually cost something.
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Originally posted by LYNX
from a thread given oh say 2 weeks ago. I tuck it that gun packs were going to be perked. F4's were used in the example 50's to 20 mm's etc. I assume this is a blanket perk across all planes. If this is so one would expect a 75 mm b25 tank buster to actually cost something.
The 75mm was not a tank buster, it was used in anti-shipping (commercial/transport/supply) operations in the Pacific Theater of Operations. Many later removed the 75mm from the B-25 in place of additional .50's to be mounted (this ironically came out, among other places, from the combat evaluations of the A-26B Block 5's). It was found that a wall of API (Armor Piercing Incendiary) rounds proved better at that kind of mission, and general strafing attacks, than one slow firing 75mm mount did.
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I haven't researched a lot of that enough to have an informed opinion much less already have a decision made(that includes the 410 contrary to popular rumor). I have to be carefully consider things when it comes to something that is very rare, very powerful, or very difficult to model or get coded into the game. On the B-25G or H, I've been there done that in another game and think that would be a fun and worthy addition to AH. A perk ordnance system looms out there in the indefinite future and that would certainly give me more leeway to put in more exotic stuff without having it run amok or eat up extra plane slots. I almost never say never, an exception to that is an atomic bomb.
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Okay, was hoping that you'd secretly completed the Perk Ord system and would sneak it into the next update. Also, I didn't want to be voting for the 410 if it only comes with 2 20s, 2 mgs, and bombs, or for a plain B-25. I would guess that's the case with a lot of folks, but I speak only for myself.
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LOL Ball, that's why I said Furb , I had'nt seen you in the thread yet, I figured you knew I'd meant Hubs :aok
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Originally posted by Pyro
I haven't researched a lot of that enough to have an informed opinion much less already have a decision made(that includes the 410 contrary to popular rumor). I have to be carefully consider things when it comes to something that is very rare, very powerful, or very difficult to model or get coded into the game. On the B-25G or H, I've been there done that in another game and think that would be a fun and worthy addition to AH. A perk ordnance system looms out there in the indefinite future and that would certainly give me more leeway to put in more exotic stuff without having it run amok or eat up extra plane slots. I almost never say never, an exception to that is an atomic bomb.
But I need a nookie!#!@#!:cry
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Originally posted by Bronk
While it probably could 1 shot buffs.
Getting to alt and avoiding fighters will make getting into that position difficult.
Bronk
B-25 has more problems here than just altitude (with a 25,000 feet service ceiling) and avoiding fighters if trying to hunts buffs. It's slower than both the B-26 and B-24 and has the worse climb rate of the three (790 ft/min). A B-25 is going to have serious trouble generating an intercept of other bombers in order to take that one shot with the spud gun.
If the 75mm is like the early one in the Block-5 A-26's, you can't be maneuvering hard to reload, and reload times could be between 4-6 seconds (at best), between shots, and you'll have 20 rounds for the 75mm on-board in racks.
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Yeah but if you hit the mid bomber with one of those papayas, the drones may blow up too. So i think is worth a try.:t
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Yep.. a wgr21 hit on a tight formation's middle plane will have all three in pieces.
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If were talking big gun options on B25 I would like this added to the mossie also as a perk option
"FB.XVIII Fighter bomber. The 'Tsetse'. Developed from the FB.VI with the nose modified to take a six-pounder (57mm) anti-tank gun instead of the four 20mm cannon. The six-pounder could fire 25 shells in 20 seconds. Merlin 25 engines. Used mainly by Coastal Command against submarines and shipping."
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Originally posted by Bruv119
If were talking big gun options on B25 I would like this added to the mossie also as a perk option
"FB.XVIII Fighter bomber. The 'Tsetse'. Developed from the FB.VI with the nose modified to take a six-pounder (57mm) anti-tank gun instead of the four 20mm cannon. The six-pounder could fire 25 shells in 20 seconds. Merlin 25 engines. Used mainly by Coastal Command against submarines and shipping."
:t :O :O :D
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Many later removed the 75mm from the B-25 in place of additional .50's
The 75-mm T13E1 cannon wasn't removed. When it was determined that the B-25H wasn't as effective as thought and didn't provide any advantage over specially adapted strafers the use of the heavy cannon was generally abanonded in the SWP by August of '44. By September '44, the B-25Hs were either transferred to the 38th BG which wanted the B-25H to replace their B-25Gs or were returned to depots.
24 B-25Hs were taken on strength by the 11th Bombardment Squadron of the Fourteenth Air Force for interdiction work in China in early 1944. The 341st Bombardment Group also received B-25Hs in 1945, some of them serving there until the end of the war. The 1st Air Commando Group assigned to Burma was also provided with the B-25H. Some of the AF units in the CBI received the new APG-13A radar ranging equipment for use with the 75-mm cannon. This enabled the precise range to a target to be determined at all times during an attacking run, making precise aiming much simpler.
If we do have the B-25H, it should also come without the co-pilot seat as it was eliminated from that version.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
If we do have the B-25H, it should also come without the co-pilot seat as it was eliminated from that version.
ack-ack
Actually, the H model still had a co-pilot. He was responsible for making inputs to the fire control radar for the 75mm gun. Further, VMB-613 (the only Marine squadron flying the H model) was using it operationally from January '45 till the end of the war. Interestingly enough, they removed the blister .50 cals from their's and used the 75mm quite effectively.
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One of the more controversial changes introduced by the B-25H was the deletion of the co-pilot position. The elimination of the co-pilot's seat, armor plate, and controls resulted in a saving of over 300 pounds of weight. At the position of the copilot, a jump seat for the navigator was provided since his position had now been preempted by the forward-moved dorsal turret. General James Doolittle had always questioned the need for a copilot in the B-25 and B-26. However, General George Kenney, commander of the Fifth Air Force in the Pacific, vehemently objected and claimed that he needed the second pilot for long, over-water missions under hazardous conditions. However, General Arnold overruled these objections, and the B-25H was delivered without a co-pilot's position.
The five-man crew consisted of the pilot, navigator-cannoneer-radioman, flight engineer-top turret gunner, waist gunner-camera operator and tail gunner. Three of five crew members had multiple jobs; there was no co-pilot or bombardier and only one waist gunner.
Are you sure the Marines had a B25H with a co-pilot seat or was it a B-25G that had the copilot seat? From what I've been able to find, there wasn't a B-25H with a co-pilot seat and those 75mm cannon equipped B-25s that did have a co-pilot were the B-25Gs.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Are you sure the Marines had a B25H with a co-pilot seat or was it a B-25G that had the copilot seat? From what I've been able to find, there wasn't a B-25H with a co-pilot seat and those 75mm cannon equipped B-25s that did have a co-pilot were the B-25Gs.
ack-ack
VMB-613's aircraft were B-25H-5's. We may have misunderstood each other, as they didn't have a second set of controls, but there was a seat and crew position called "co-pilot". The co-pilot did control the radar for the gun. Check out the website http://www.vmb-613.com for some definitive descriptions of the equipment. Also, look through some of the after-action reports describing the use of the gun