Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lazs1 on July 07, 2001, 08:56:00 AM
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given that I don't like bombers in the game the way that they are used and with the available uses for them...
Why do you not take out the vehicle hanger first thing? What good is taking out the fighter and bomber hangers first and then wandering off??
I mean even you should be able to see that with the simplistic short list of "tactics" we have in AH that the GV's are the biggest threat... Believe me, all those friendly fighters can take care of any nme ac trying to take of or strafe ack.
With machine guns I can't do diddly against AH GV's. Hard to imagine that 30-100 .50's rattlin around in an open topped ostie wouldn't make hamburger out of anyone at the gun tho.
Addmitedly I have never understood anything about anyone who buffs in a game where buffs are so badly done but... Why don't you take out the VH first?
lazs
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Hum. when I am flying my b17.. I ONLY target the VH and acks if we are trying to take the base. If I am trying to inconvienience a team, I'll hit the fuel and ammo, and nothing else. B17 doesn't carry enough bombs to make a big enough dent in the hangers to matter.
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Lazs.. your frustration pales in comparison to those trying to capture a base.
There is nothing better than hearing "fighter hangars down at 47"... meaning two of the 3. Just as 5 ostwinds start to spawn. The next buff over takes out two of the bomber hangars. I saw this about 10 times in the last 2 days.
It all boils down to a bunch of newbies playing the game. The names I saw flying the buffs were all rookies. They just hit the big black buildings first. The camo vh is just too hard to see.
The furball guys aren't the only ones that wish this would change.
Now... on another note... if you are going to capture a base, it is much safer to take out the FH nearest to the base you are taking (in conjunction with the base you are taking) than it is even to take out the FH at the base you are taking. Its much easier to vul... er... cap the field you are capturing than to deal with incoming fighters at 12k.
AKDejaVu
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Don't like the way ppl are flying their bombers?
Take off with your own bomber then :)
btw VHs have been my main targets since first time we tried to capture a field full of halftracks....
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If it's up, I target the VH as my main target if I'm carrying heavy bombs. Normally when I fly the b26 I only take 250lbers. These I use to kill the ammo bunkers and acks. If some are already down, the rest fall on the VH. The front guns usually then allow you to finish the job.
It's definately true that 1 ostie is worth 5 fighters in the air defending. Those ostwinds act really funny now. I have a film of one sitting in a burning BH and I dropped a 500lber and 2 250lbers from a spit. All hit within the hangar (none hit the ostie directly though) but the ostwind only lost a track and continued to fire. Only after I had used up 150 rds of HS ammo did it finally lose it's gun.
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What I miss is a dedicated group of buff drivers... guys that form up; announce their target, and go do the damn job.
That excludes the new folks begging incessantly for 'escort' or 'gunners' (escort per se is a joke... what works is SWEEPS and HIGH CAP) and then proceed to hit the stuff on the field that makes not a whit of diffeence to a capture... and screws the frame rates by making smoke.
Note to newbies: DO NOT up from the field next to the one you are attacking and fly directly to the target. Try comming into the target area from a diffrent direction. You'll live longer.
Field capture prioity list:
VEHICLE HANGER; RADAR; ACKS; FH'S BH'S. In that order. Leave the fuel; ammo; barracks and such ALONE. We NEED that stuff to continue to attack the NEXT field.
If enuff buffs are available; hit the fuels and/or FH's on the adjacent next nearest enemy base in a COORDINATED effort... strikes should be happening on BOTH bases. Tag that radar too.
Target Priority List for a Single B17 w/500's or 1k's.. THE VEHICLE HANGER. Drop 3k. Be DAMN sure this goes down first. THEN EXIT THE AREA TOWARDS FRIENDLIES AND HOLD THE LAST 3K of EGGS FOR WHEN IT REGENS! It will. And it'll happen just as the goon gets there.
Target Priority list for the Med buffs w/ 250's or for a b17 w/250's.. RADAR FIRST! Then hit the acks. Time from the first ack dropped to the last ack dropped should be less than 5 minutes. Ignore other buildings.. keep the smoke to a minimum.
Target priority list for a Lanc.. Take 14 1k eggs and do the FH's. Just the FH's. If u are unsupported by other heavy buffs (no B17 on VH watch) Nail the VH first then the FH's. Remember to use 3 1k's on that VH.. not 2. It sometimes won't drop with just two from a heavy buff.. dunno why. It's a huge waste of heavy bomber power to tag acks with 1k eggs. Any fighter can strafe down an ack.. use that destructive power on the NEXT ADJACENT BASE if the base you flew too is already battered down.
Best possible buff raid in AH right now... 6 b26's. 2 with 250's on radar and acks, 4 with 4ea 1k's on VH and FH's. In less than 3 minutes 6 b26's can turn any med or small field into a wasteland. No long extensions; they can get on and stay on target better than the big guys can. And they can descend for peggin cockroaches with 250's after acks are down...
Gimme 6 b26's and 6 jabo fighters for 2 hours and I'll get 10 fields. Easy. :)
Gawd I wish we had the A26a Invader. :D
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I am amused by your frustration. From now on just fighter and bomber hangars for me.
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long live the VH!
and the BH!
you can have the fh
IL2 shall smite you
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When I am in a bomber over an enemy filed my first priority is to kill that @&*#ing Ostwind spawner, e.g. the VH.
I don't know why others don't do the same.
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I agree with Hangtime in his assessement of what currently works the best. Real co-ordinated efforts are difficult task for any country to accomplish but there have been a few I have seen be highly effective. There is a key at the heart of the sim that works but it requires an enormous commitment and is probably behind the two cities change on the strat map.
- First there must be a simultious strike on BOTH cities and reduce the % as low as possible
- Then depending on the strategy hit specifically the (Ammo, Refinery, Radar, Training, Flack factory) and reduce the % as low as possible
- Then with a co-ordinated sweep hit the specific targets at the forward fields (ie Fuel or Barracks) and bring them down!
- This effectively reduces or stops the enemy from taking off with fuel capacity or troops and severly limits there offensive ability and to climb to altitude to defend the next wave of bombers.
- If done right there is about two hours of strong offensive sweep time
- Now the first targets are VH's and AAA then FH's and Blitz through the map
Now that I have said this... this is just a fantasy of mine! :)
It seems to be very difficult to get the right mix of players that like bombing, heavy fighter AG attack,naval bombardment,naval fighter AG attack,High Altitude Bombardment and fighter cover for fields and escorts to do this all at one time. And even if there, the numbers required to do this are rarely there.
I beleive that these matters have been carefully thought out and the gameplay designed by HTC to keep one country from being overrun.
Hmmm maybe the real game is between HTC and the players! :D
HTC wins if few resets take place.
And we the players win if we can get a reset.
But really we all wins when HTC wins because EVERYONE enjoys the game when they aren't getting overrun and there is a hope of turning the tide! ;)
- I have been playing Online Sims for 11 years now and I am still fighting for territory.
- Not once has the enemy sat down at the table and signed a peace treaty and we had a few years of peace!
- I have never been paid a penny for my service to my country but I have fought to the death countless times!
- I have been wounded, killed and miraculously healed brought back to life by my country only to have to fight again.
- The only consolation I have is I have made TONS OF GOOD FREINDS!!!!
The real reason I keep coming back is it is fun and I really like the enterplay and freindships you make here!
THANKS TO YOU ALL! <S>
Thunder
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
[QB]. Leave the fuel; ammo; barracks and such ALONE. We NEED that stuff to continue to attack the NEXT field.
<sniped lots of good stuff>
I strongly disagree with this statement. It's the leading cause of whining about carbombers.....
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Nice posts.
But you see:
1. I seldom have excorts
2. I seldom have JABOs
3. I always target the Vehicle Hangar first
4. Fighter Hangars are always my 2nd priority.
5. I love how many generals tell me what to hit while they won't give me a Check Six or get the parade of cons off my tail. <shrug> It happens.
Bufsquealing is fun. (And more so with beer.) hehe I also like softening up a field for my teamates, and I've been known to get bored and squish the HQs :)
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You know whats even more fun and sneaky?
Find an airfield near the front and thats on the shore. Bomb all the ack.
Go back with a PT boat sit there with engine off and wait for fighters or bombers to take off. I have gotten away with this until somebdoy comes at me with rockets and bombs but by then i turn engine on and get moving
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I look at the field and its size to determine what I target. I always kill VH with my 4k bomb on first pass(I usually fly the Lanc for field missions). The what I do with my 18 500's all depends on how many FH'sthe base has. If there are 3 FH's then I kill all 3 and then kill 3 ammo bunkers, to try and stop the carbombers. If there a 4 or more FH's then I kill all the acks and the AMMO and radar. That usually makes for all my bombs.
Only new bomber pilots will not hit the VH on first pass, and thats because they just don't know any better yet.
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Ok.. so everyone hits the VH first. I guess I am not seeing what i am seeing.
fatty... if you want to fly buffs just to frustrate me then i am flattered and amused. Your boredom will keep me amused. I will send you two pictures of myself. One, a large one suitable for framing and placing on your monitor so that you can think of me while you are playing and one smaller wallet size so that you can think about me while you are not playing AH.
lazs
[ 07-08-2001: Message edited by: lazs1 ]
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Ok.. so everyone hits the VH first. I guess I am not seeing what i am seeing.
Ummm.. common mistake: 5 people posting here represents "everyone" flying buffs in the arena.
AKDejaVu
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No way we can have dedicated buff squads with the lousy buff bomb model. There can be no interest in anybody roughly interested in buff flying for what we have here. I am talking both about the lack of bomb blast, the 35k+ pinpoint accuracy, the Norden implementation, the lack of damage to crew on long stratospheric flights, the ack firing through fuselage and wings.... A dedicated buff squad would like realistic approach to buff formations, and realistic modelling of bomb damage. I think AH lacks severely in both sides.
Buff driving is boring as it can be. No skill required whatsoever. You can take off even running cross-country :D
Anyway, Buff modelling is a looooooong standing issue, and no steps has been taken into solving what I perceive to be a problem, and no notice has been given so far. So I assume that, from Htc.'s point of view, this is a "feature", not a problem.
I've learnt to live with it. I have no hopes this will be fixed in the near future, or at all. Pity that, as much as I liked buffing on WB, I can't find any fun here doing that. I'm out of buff flying in AH.
Lucky thing is we have a lot of other interesting things to do. :)
Cheers,
Pepe
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I tend to think of buffs as being very anoying and badly done AI.
lazs
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*shrugs* when we (mongrels) attack a base with the intent of capturing it, we always assign someone to the VH.
Personally, I prefer strikes that limit the capabilities of the enemy. Last night, we took out the barracks at 43 and 2, to make the goons have a farther run to take over our bases. If anything, a furballer would enjoy that as it prolongs the massive struggle over the base. ;)
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On Behalf of all the frustrated, dedicated buff pilots, I come forth and say this:
Listen to LePaul a bit, he's got a point.
Ok. Lot of Buff pilots are in fact newbies. The vague romantic air flirting around the 'legend of Memphisbelle' is as almost as big as the typical ignorant fetish towards the 'legend of the Luftwaffe and the 109s' for a newbie(don't you deny this one! We've all been there! :) ) AH flight model is so hard for most every newbie that when they take their first step towards flight, they usually experiment out with the buffs, sit and look around in the turrets. I know that because I started off just the same.
Quite natural. Newbies just don't know their priorities(hey, is there a "Buff trainer" out there? I THINK NOT). Neither did I. But they'll learn. Whether you drive them up the wall like a drill sarge booting private arse, or you EXPLAIN THINGS NICELY, hey, they learn.
But there are other times. Where's that inkling of a thing called 'escorts'? Look around from the birds eye view and everyone else is busy hunting for their own kills. Many times one would suggest few people to stay up high CAP and stop reinforcements from entering from nearby fields and you get this terrific silence. Boy do I miss a "CC" when it's like that. :mad:
Somehow, the operation that began smoothly goes nuts. People are busy vulching, the goon gets left alone and killed by a N1K from another field that dives from 20K, the VHs knocked out prior to first attack is respawn by the time 2~3 goons come by and miserably get shot out of the sky.. Enemy dots begin popping from all over including large numbers of reinforcements from nearby fields, and by then people ask for buffs to down FHs so they can gain air superiority. What are buff pilots supposed to do? :(
The reasonable solution is to realize the tactical failure of the attack and plan an attack elsewhere. But then again, people stay around the field by this time which there's absolutely no possibility of capturing and do meaningless vulches for another half an hour, while reinforced enemy airpower at 18k begins dropping any more buffs approaching to kill VHs and other stuff. :mad:
We buff pilots get sick of dying unprotected, so we announce that we should target other fields. Nobody listens. So we announce an attack at a field that has low enemy profile(and good tactical value). Kill the VHs first as prescribed, even take out good FHs. And broadcast out like Larry King that we have a new good target. Of course by the time anybody actually listens to this and begins upping de-ack jabos, the VHs are back up. By the time we get home and land all the advantage is at a loss.
Cut us some slack. Try and establish some nice air sweeps up high and believe me, we will down any hangar in any order, any time.
The only way we could achieve these nice coordinated attacks so far was through mission settings. Most other case of field capture was usually brute force. Come join that BORING mission which fighters have not much to do but keep a look out for many many many minutes. And once more, we'll drop any hangar in any sequence at given time.
But I forget. You guys don't join 'Not so fun missions which fighters do nothing but fly around for 20 minutes'.
Every second of those boring 20 minutes is a struggle for buff pilots. So next time, let's all be nice and somtimes LISTEN to what the buff pilots want. It's not because we're all morons we can't drop correct hangars things nicely.
ps) I always drop VHs first.
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What slays me is the guys that waste their ord on GVs while the VH is still up. Yea ya get a kill, but ya ain't accomplishing anthing but paddin your score. :confused:
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Lazs.. your frustration pales in comparison to those trying to capture a base.
There is nothing better than hearing "fighter hangars down at 47"... meaning two of the 3. Just as 5 ostwinds start to spawn. The next buff over takes out two of the bomber hangars. I saw this about 10 times in the last 2 days.
It all boils down to a bunch of newbies playing the game. The names I saw flying the buffs were all rookies. They just hit the big black buildings first. The camo vh is just too hard to see.
The furball guys aren't the only ones that wish this would change.
Now... on another note... if you are going to capture a base, it is much safer to take out the FH nearest to the base you are taking (in conjunction with the base you are taking) than it is even to take out the FH at the base you are taking. Its much easier to vul... er... cap the field you are capturing than to deal with incoming fighters at 12k.
AKDejaVu
I know who your flying with.
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ROFL Pongo!! Good one!
Kweassa... Right on target. Nice post. <S!>
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"I am amused by your frustration. From now on just fighter and bomber hangars for me. "
- fatty
"fatty... if you want to fly buffs just to frustrate me then i am flattered and amused. Your boredom will keep me amused. I will send you two pictures of myself. One, a large one suitable for framing and placing on your monitor so that you can think of me while you are playing and one smaller wallet size so that you can think about me while you are not playing AH."
- lasz
OMG that's the funniest exchange i've heard in ages. i haven't bombed anything in weeks but i am going to go take out a fh at a furball base tonight in fatty's honor. lasz - i'd like a picture of you too so i can picture you looking cranky and colicy when i hear those 1k lber's go......loolololol
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Sorry if I offended anyone. Sort of lost it there, but I do think my point was valid.
I just wanted to point out the lack of 'voluntary support' for the Bombers up in the sky. Since we don't have a CO giving out orders, we need to think by ourselves a bit what is needed where. And most of the times, "PROTECT THE BUFFS" is NOT a priority to people flying fighters. They tend to just think "just come here and bomb this, if you die, oh well, up another lanc".
I have to say it's not that easy... buffs have low chance of surviving and returning home, and you have to invest a lot of time in it, too. I'm pretty sure nobody wants to commit suicide everytime they up a plane. In order to kill something fast and effectively, we need help.
Close range escorts are rarely effective(but we do appreciate it). A fighter sweep prior to the bombing run is the best help we can get. But escorts become worthless once they start chasing enemy planes down to the deck. If a buff is to survive and continue out its task, it needs fighters to chase away the high alt fighters low, and return up ti high alt again and keep others from pestering the buffs. If you are trying to help a buff pilot out, just 'chasing a plane away' is always more welcome than 'chasing a plane to the deck to kill it'.
Once more, sorry if I offended anyone.
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And once again.. Nice post. Yah just nailed another one dead on. :)
I will mourn the next time I shoot yah down.
<S!>
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It also boils down to at least 3/4 of the entire arena want to do nothing but furball. I have done many a surgical ;) strike on a port or field, right on the front, near friendly bases, disable the VH and ack, a FH or two, and call for the goon. No one ever comes. Not one person f***ing comes, ever. I have called goons for 1 1/2 hours one night even with the VH up to see if anyone comes. No one does. I like flying bombers, and I like them in groups, but it is very frustrating to either:
A.) Have your escorts chase a single nme fighter (out of 2) to the deck, leaving the last one to ionize me.
B.) Flatten a field (so to speak) and call for goons several times and have no one show.
C.) Destroying the FH at a base people are vulching at, only to be yelled at for removing the vulchees, to which everyone just disappears.
D.) Destroying fuel and ammo to stop the carbombers, only to be yelled at for destroying "things vital to our push onward"
Those who squeak about bombers being worthless or "bad" are usually those who yell at bomber pilots for killing furball fields or removing easy targets for vulchers. I truely will be sad/angry if HTC removes the bombers just so some newbie Quakers can have their little f***ing furball fests.
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Nice post, Kweassa.
Still I think Buffs in AH are some kind of Easy Mode, and I see where this helps newbies. I can also see the frustration of solo Buff flights (I try to provide cover on a regular basis, when I'm not in squad mission). But Buff flying is still a no-fun for me :(
I would return to Buff flying if Norden sight is more accurately modelled and bomb blast is modelled in a different way than what we have today. I think (I'm no expert) that bomb blast is rather large in reality, much larger that it is here. Even if it was not, and given .50's in buffs beefed up for the sake of gameplay, I see no reason to beef up bombs in buffs added to norden sight and maybe drift on drops, to try to modelled some credible buff patterns. Navigation skills would make the travel to target interesting, and pinpoint accuracy will be replaced by some kind of carpet bombing.
IMHO, buffs should not be concerned about pinpointing targets from 35k's, but about reaching the target with the right lining to inflict maximum damage with a nicely timed salvo in one pass. That's what buffs are for, AFAIK. No jinking, no magic laser designators, no fire and forget. Just a nice drop of big, fat, juicy eggs that would blast anything in (say) 50 ft, damage severely in 100 ft., etc., blow soft targets....
Had some flavour of that last tour, on a mission over Knit City. Just dropped 1k eggs without particular aiming, just in the general area, and the 3xBuilding+1 Gun killed message were pretty rewarding. I tried to stick to some kind of realistic behaviour, setting long legs in and out target. But I really, really do miss those two things when it comes to buffs. Norden sight and Bomb blast. Now these would be a blast :)
Cheers,
Pepe
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If you haven't flown a buf for a while,you ought to try it.I think the guns lethality has been turned down and the rate of climb decreased making it much harder to get to target.After what they did with the Panzer and the Ostwind,this is becoming an arcade game for fighters and a long way from a WW2 sim.Escort ? what is an escort ?
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mrfish... I thought that you had been (cough) "restricted" from soliciting photos on the internet? Granted, I am quite a bit older than the ones you normally solicit but still.....
Here it is bomber folks... the bombers in the game are hashed up messes that really shouldn't be in the game. The distances are too short and the targets wrong for four or even two engined bombers to be realistic. the time most people have to play is too short to do anything but curse the bombers. Bombers and fighters are at best adversarial in the game.
What no one wants to escort your glorified AI for 20 minutes instead of having fun? You call for escort and people ignore you??? Sheesh... I have never heard anyone say.. "Need help at __ the furball is winding down" ... I can't recall a single time that I have been happy to see a bomber in the game. I make it a point to shoot their chutes and I wish killshooter were not active for buffs. other than that... they are ok i guess.
lazs
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Ok lazs, heres a good option for you. If you think the bombers are messed up, there isn't any need for you to come here squeaking about it, just don't fly them. If all you want to do is furball to your hearts content, then fine. I see no need for you to squeak about the bombers and "shooting them if killshooter was off" just because YOU think that they are worthless. I am a bomber pilot, and I don't think anything is wrong. I would like to see a more difficult bomb aiming and blast radius though.
[ 07-10-2001: Message edited by: texace ]
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texace... I understand but... What about what I've said about bombers in AH is untrue? And, as you say, the blast radius and accuracy are wrong to boot. I am saying that the way the game is layed out there is no place for bombers and that they simply annoy people and make the game more gimicky. They are not able to do anything in the game that is close to simulation of bombers or tactics... How am I wrong?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs1:
texace... I understand but... What about what I've said about bombers in AH is untrue? And, as you say, the blast radius and accuracy are wrong to boot. I am saying that the way the game is layed out there is no place for bombers and that they simply annoy people and make the game more gimicky. They are not able to do anything in the game that is close to simulation of bombers or tactics... How am I wrong?
lazs
As if P51's, 109's, 190's, all vulching each other upping from the "same" exact field and always fight below 10K is any better than being called "gimicky"? We're all playing a "game" now not a sim, I believe we had a sim at one time but now it's just a "game".
Lazs, Didn't you cry enough to get your own furball arena? Why don't you play in the dueling/laz arena? Wait let me guess the dueling arena bases are too far apart? :) j/k
Mox
[ 07-11-2001: Message edited by: Mox ]
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You people have some twisted definitions of what "simulation" means and how it gets applied.
This is an air combat simulation with advanced flight modelling. Says so on the first page.
Anything else is just your imagination, this is not a war simulation or supposed to fully simulate WWII.
-SW
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mox... the planes are simulated. I care not for reenacting history. The bombers are not simulated they are hashed up comprimise messes.
The reason bombers didn't hit fields from high alt was because it was useless. In this game it is a valid tactic no matter how bogus. Having all guns slaved to one player is absurd. Haveing the buff guns have more range than the fighter guns is a perfect example of what I am talking about.
Targets for fighters are other fighters. I don't care what type of fighter that is (the more variety the better) but I want it to be a well simulated fighter. My FM and gunnery are simulated and my targets are correct. This is not the case with bombers. In fact all bombs in AH are bogus and create a suicide mentality. I watched the same P47 bomb the cv at least 6 times. He died every time but he was rewarded with a kill of the cv on the sixth.
mox... I have never asked for a furball arena. you are either misinformed, stupid, a liar or some combination of these. since you have made the same statement in the past about me and I have corrected u.... I believe the latter is the case.
lazs
[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: lazs1 ]
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Lazs..you don't get it do you? Yes there are some things the bombers have that aren't real, like gun ranges and slaving, but that's for gameplay. Now tell me, what is so bad about the gun slaving? You'd rather have them fireing only the gun occupied, or worse yet, OTTO? I don't think that when a B-17 was attacked, the tail gunner said, "No one else fire, he's mine!"
My statement still stands. I care not that bombers have more things over fighters, and that YOU (as in lazs the Great Almighty Only My Opinion Counts Person) think they are wrong. If you don't like them, DON'T FLY THEM!!!!! If youthink they make AH more gamey, DON'T FLY THEM!!!!! If all you want to do is fly fighters, DON'T FLY BOMBERS!!!!
I said it before, there is no need to come here telling all of us that YOU think the bombers shouldn't be here. Just don't fly one, don't help ne, don't kill one. And I'm sure we'd all be happier....
[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: texace ]
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Originally posted by lazs1:
mox... the planes are simulated. I care not for reenacting history. The bombers are not simulated they are hashed up comprimise messes.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe Pyro and the rest of the HiTech crew actually do the research and try to accurately model the flight model of the bombers exactly like they do for the fighters. I see no difference in the way that the flight model is designed for a fighter versus a bomber. How are the bomber flight models “compromised”?
I agree the bombers guns are a little “gimmicky” but HiTech has to make them playable.
Originally posted by lazs1:
I watched the same P47 bomb the cv at least 6 times. He died every time but he was rewarded with a kill of the cv on the sixth.
IMHO the addition of the perk points system made the “suicide attack” more prevalent in the MA. I see a lot more suiciders in the MA these days. Lets face it that P47 stood to lose nothing (perk points) but he had everything to gain from killing that carrier regardless if it took him 50 tries.
Originally posted by lazs1:
mox... I have never asked for a furball arena. you are either misinformed, stupid, a liar or some combination of these. since you have made the same statement in the past about me and I have corrected u.... I believe the latter is the case.
lazs
I thought about bringing that old thread up but I realized it really doesn’t matter. You seem to think the MA would be better off without bombers or at least the kind of bombers we have now. I disagree.
I say add more bombers AND more fighters! Variety is the key!
Mox
[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: Mox ]
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The MA would be better if the bomber's unrealistic features (i.e. incredible bomb accuracy) were fixed. Of course then the bombers wouldn't be much use against airfields and CVs so the MA would need to have "strategic" targets added that were physically large and well defended against low level attacks (i.e. we don't want jabos to be the best strategic bombers). The only way to effectively destroy these would be by launching many buff sorties against them. Perhaps if each country had 10 "cities" that had to be significantly damaged before a country could lose this would give the buffs suitable targets. The cities should never rebuild (you get new cities after a reset/map change) and the more damage they've taken the easier it is to cause a reset. Perhaps you would have to take all of a country's airfields to cause a reset if the cities are undamaged but capture progressively less airfields as the cities suffer more damage. This would give the buffs "strategic" targets that would take concentrated effort over a long time (at least a couple of days in the game) to reduce. If you totally ignore your city defense, then after a couple of days your country becomes terribly easy to reset.
Of course, hitting the cities shouldn't cause any silly side effects like lowering fuel availability.
Hooligan
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i personally have always targeted the vh first then fh,andack due to the fact that they are all you really need to be able to capture a base in either order but when im lancin i take both w/ one load out
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mox... please do bring up the thread where I asked for a seperate arena. I think you will find that I have allways said just the oppossite... That I don't think seperate arenas work and that people tend to go where the numbers are.
tex and mox.... gunnery is the most important thing... bombers don't really have much of a Flight model. If all the ordinance of a plane is bogus and one part of that ordinance is bombs that can ruin the game for a dozen people.... then yes, ordinance/gunnery is VERY important.
Watch a dozen or 20 guys merrily haveing a fight between two close but unimportant fields. the fights stay low because it does no good and indeed, cuts down on your defense to go high.... Look up while RTB and see a big fat unskilled A hole at 20k in a four engined suicide bomber all by himself with no opposition.... hitting a bunch of hangers and feeling all proud of himself because he has found a way to "affect" the game even tho he is so unskilled.
It boils down to... I fly fighters. I have no need or desire to "affect" the game. I don't need to say "look at me look at me i just made the game a drag for a dozen guys". I don't believe that bombers need to be quite so bogus and/or have quite so much impact on quite so many people.
Tex... I don't fly em and I don't attack em unless I'm really, really bored but.... That doesn't stop em from ruining a good time. whether you fly fighters or not makes no difference to me or anyone else, and that..... is the difference.
lazs
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Lasz, just for sake of curiosity, take a b17 full of bombs and fuel, and climb to 20k.
Looooong climb.
Someone think it's suitable to defend a country hopping in a vulched field, other prefer a GV, other want to use the mid alt fighters to cut the attack flow, finally someone want to spend lot of time to gain a safe alt and try to disable the attack by hitting the attack's origin field.
The same, with due differences, apply when you are in offensive.
It's just the way different people like to play in different ways, all of us are paying customers, and want to have fun.
as to the playability, well, the bombers guns are strong, indeed, but you can still attack and down a bomber untouched, if you use the right tactic, more easyly, if you have a countrymate for a coordinated attack.
The laserguided bombs fact is true, but the blast range is ridiculous compared to most of the targets in fields or factories.
When an old, unexploded US bomb is found here in Italy (yes, there are still some stuck underground), they use to evacuate a 4-5 square Km area (500 lbs bombs in majority), for people safety, in case the baby decide to wake up before deactivation.
with 100 Kg (little more than 200 lbs) of TNT, mafia cut in half an highway to kill a judge some year ago, can you imagine 500 (or, better 400, the rest must be iron) of HE exploding in a runway, or near a can made hangar? or even a small building?
less precision, more blast
(and maybe one shot salvo)
nice slogan :)
p.s.
And I sometime fly buffs, so I must be a damn dweeb, like 90% of ppl, but this is well know. :)
Real men dont fly buffs! :p
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Oh, I forgot to mention the "collective blackout" phenomenon.
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Heh I like those long boring flights too: Sometimes I took a P-51 or P-38 to HQ patrol; Just cruising over HQ @ 30k waiting if some StratoFortress would like to come visit us:
First boring 20-30mins and then hectic fight trying to avoid those .50cals which can kill you with one ping :D
Kinda like the real thing isn't it :)
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Originally posted by lazs1:
.....Watch a dozen or 20 guys merrily haveing a fight between two close but unimportant fields. the fights stay low because it does no good and indeed, cuts down on your defense to go high.... Look up while RTB and see a big fat unskilled A hole at 20k in a four engined suicide bomber all by himself with no opposition.... hitting a bunch of hangers and feeling all proud of himself because he has found a way to "affect" the game even tho he is so unskilled......
lazs
Unfortunately, the MA is a combination of those who like to furball and those who prefer more to their game than furballing.
A "shoot-em-up" arena would be great...turn off all strat and ground damage, put a tiny map with a few bases near each other, and let the furballers fight it out! Until that happens, you'll never get rid of your example.
That's not my cup of tea, I had enough furballing at Fighter Ace.
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no fury... a "shoot em up arena" would not be great. The point is that the arena is fine it's just that a very few people now have the power to affect a very large group and that they do it in a very unrealistic way.
Why would i climb to kill a hashed up unrealistic buff when there are more realistic fights easier to get to? what do I care how long it took that idiot to climb to 20k so that he could do his solitary gaming the game thing? All I care about is how each element of the game affects me. right now, the bombers have an extremely lopsided affect on the game.
They are no fun to kill and even less fun to fly but they have a huge lopsided effect on the game. The only defense is to have a cap at all times at all fields. That would take allmost all fighter resources and be as fun to do as watch a baseball game or watch paint dry. Killing em after they drop bombs is also boring and useless to boot. nothing but vengence. i would rather kill their chutes after someone else does the work.
You are pretty much stuck with playing as boring and unrealistic a game as the buff guys (escort/climb attack or cap) do or ignoring them and hoping they don't screw up the fites too much. Far as I can see that is the way it is right now. We are forced to play their game but have no simular affect on their game.
lazs
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Each to thier own.
IMHO, nothin' beats gettin' 6 or 7 squaddies together in a nice tight bomber formation and boldly going off to ruin some dweebish furballer's day, along with that of all his peers.
It is truely great fun, just knowing that by dropping a hangar or two, all those low alt single engine fools have to fly further to get thier 'furball fix'....enabling the guys who play for a purpose to get on with having fun.
Apart from the 'each to thier own' bit...the above argument is as rediculous as calling bomber pilots 'no skill boring A-holes' etc.
Everyone plays for their own fun, wether they get that from flying fighters, bombers, jabos....whatever, that's their call.
None of us can realistically say that 'our' particular style of gameplay, or 'simulation' if you prefer, is any better or worse than any other guys', we all just take what is available to us (the AH software) and make the best of it in our own way...if you dont like what some other guy is doing...stiff watermelon mate, chances are he's not real impressed with your style either, agree to disagree...or virtually kill each other, the choice is yours, and it's just as valid a choice as that made by the guy at 29k in his bomber otw to take out an FH or two.
Just my 2C, which, considering the fact I'm an Australian, and our current exchange rate...probably isnt worth a great deal ;)
<S> Blue
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blue... try to read what I have written... i don't give a watermelon how people enjoy the game so long as it doesn't have an unrealistic and lopsided, huge affect on my way of playing. What you have said in your first paragraph is more likely than the reverse, me affecting the bomber sis.. guys game. A few guys with very little skill can ruin it for many... and do.
lazs
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i don't give a watermelon how people enjoy the game so long as it doesn't have an unrealistic and lopsided, huge affect on my way of playing.
You did it again. You are making this thread out to say "Bombers are unrealistic and therefore my gameplay is affected so much that I must go to the BBS and complain."
I said it before and I'll say it again...IF YOU THINK THE BOMBERS AND UNREALISTIC AND NOT FUN TO FLY, DO NOT FLY THEM!!!!
I could care less that there are problems with them. You are saying anyone who flies the bombers are no-skilled A-Holes with nothing better to do that pork some fields, and that you are so unskilled that you were shot down multiple times by buffs in the past that you just figured that it was the game, not your lack of skill that got you killed.
A few guys with very little skill can ruin it for many... and do.
I find this very hard to believe. You honestly think that a bomber destroying a field so as his country can capture it is ruining the fun of some people? Bulls***.
If you let that bomber get to the field without opposition, it's yer own damn fault.
Don't come here whining about bombers just because they ruin yer furballing fun when they kill a field......
"Would you like some cheese with that whine?"
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Lazs, my boy, can you explain me something:
Why do you pay 30$ a month to furball when you can do it for free on MSN Gaming Zone playing CFS or CFSII (no bombers / no vehicles / no strat to spoil your fun)? Maybe you don't like the FM?? Baahh, furball is (almost) all Turn & Burn anyway...
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I don't care if people want exclusively to furball, they paid as much as me so they are entitled to have the fun they want. But when one of those guys is spitting nasty words to people who just want to play otherwise, I can't keep my big mouth shut anymore.
Lazs, that bomber pilot who came high above your furball and killed all the FH may possibly be a 'dweeb', maybe you would chew him in the H2H...BUT I still think he showed much more tactical sense than you (I'm talking about MA tactical sense, not WWII).
Although I fly mostly fighters, I believe that bombers are essential to any WWII flight sim.
de Selys
Airman
332nd Flying Mongrels
[ 07-15-2001: Message edited by: deSelys ]
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Originally posted by texace:
Those who squeak about bombers being worthless or "bad" are usually those who yell at bomber pilots for killing furball fields or removing easy targets for vulchers. I truely will be sad/angry if HTC removes the bombers just so some newbie Quakers can have their little f***ing furball fests.
<pcsqueakmode> Look, I have one simple request, and that is if you're going to call people quakers, do it with a lowercase "q" please. The reason is that the uppercase implies the Religious Society of Friends, which is bit annoying. Yeah, yeah, I know, but when it come to this I am a sensitive pc squeak, ok? Thanks :)</pcsqueakmode>
Bombers, bombers, ra ra ra!
:D
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damn... I'm bout outta popcorn.
Chit.. beers low too.
ROAD TRIP!
<pulls up in front of stop 'n rob>
*BOOM* <buff at 25k blows beer hanger into oblivion>
DAMMIT! ..fediddlein useless buff dweebs...
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Noted ispar..<G>
;)
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ROTFL Hangtime
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lmao a little coms & all would be over for the buff. fighter dweebs come in all sizes some who like hi & some who like low killin buffs is piece of cake. at less than 26k :) & then if u kill buff above 26k then u can realy laugh cus it only took u 15min compared to his 30 to 45 min trip. to were u kilt him not to drop. have seen better organization in that other game than i have here. & they have realy stupid radio :(
realy drunk right now so PLEASE EXCUSE THE ENGLISH
cant figure out how to reword it so i have been playing with fighters the last 2weeks or so...& i figure the bomber is under modeled? imho but... i reasonably inteligent cus i don attack from 6? i try for slashing (hmmmmm seems to me that i read about that once? nah )
so far the lessons i have learned in ftrs
don worry the list is verry short :)
if u doing lastditch attempt at defending vulched field?
up a spit from hangar (unless u know the dir vulcher headed in :)
niki got better bombs & it wiggles good :)
the 109g10? still beyond me :(
ultimate jabo f4u-d got 2k launches everywhere & i can kill cv if i drop on it 3 times :)
NOW MY REAL QUESTION IS WHY EVEN BOTHER HAVING FRIKIN BUFFS u dont want em fine HTC jus bout elimenated the use for em nyway. lets get rid of the gvs & ak & ships too?
that way u could have the game u want? aka VULCHING damn i love it <S> to all that repeatedly did nothing but up at 15 mindu i wus starting to feel guilty :(
done
[ 07-16-2001: Message edited by: Geeb ]
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you guys refuse to get it... I don't want to cap fields or waste time climbing up to some lone suicide buff just to game a kill on a joke modeled buff. I have better things to do and more realistic fights to fight but... if no one bothers to climb up or cap then... The bombers game ridden ordinanance will smart bomb it's way into ruining the game for people. damned if you do and damned if you don't.
I don't carry bombs/jabo. It is too silly. I can't even kill a bomber hanger with mag's if I wanted too. The effect that bombers have on the fighter game is huge. The effect that fighters have on the bomber game is minimal. In WWII the exact oppossite was true. Bombers didn't take out an airfields ability to fly fighters but fighters could strafe away the fields ability to launch bombers. The fighters were in revetments or back in the woods/jungle but bombers were out in the open. Just big fat turds of a target.
One lone bomber just shouldn't be able to do much damage to an airfield. I don't care how that is achieved. Anything from making planes of all types limited to however many can be in revetments to making the bomb accuracy realistic to just throwing em out of the game but... There isn't anyone who isn't uncomfortable with the way they and their effect on the game is modeled. I would like nothing better than to be able to ignore em or to stafe em on the runway.
Oh... "quakers" would seem to apply more to the "strat" wimps than to the furballers since what they are doing is so silly and unrealistic "better check the health level on your city" "power up on that radar" "health level down on airfield". LOL! What a joke. What the strat and/or bomber guys are doing is pure game/quake with nothing to do with simulation.
BTW... how does a Quaker justify killing people.. even virtually?
lazs
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Lazs, because it has a bigger effect on your game you don't want it to be available?
If the bombers were made as accurate as possible, first of all it would take 3 or 4 fighters to down a B17 or Lancaster (those things are amazingly tough in real life) and the bombers would have to use otto to survive during their bomb runs since it takes roughly 10 minutes to compute wind drift, deviation, and the rate at which the norden lines up the target so that it can accurately drop the bombs.
We all know otto is simply flying ack, and we certainly don't want that.
-SW
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It does not have to be flying ack. It could be set so it is only active when pilot is on the bomber position, looking down, and over 10k.
If it works like the field ack now, It's quite ok for me ;)
Now firing through plane's surfaces, and the perfect conv. of each and every gun is the real freak in this particular field of buff modelling, IMO.
Cheers,
Pepe
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Originally posted by lazs1:
Blah Blah Blah...The effect that bombers have on the fighter game is huge. The effect that fighters have on the bomber game is minimal. In WWII the exact oppossite was true. Bombers didn't take out an airfields ability to fly fighters but fighters could strafe away the fields ability to launch bombers...Blah Blah Blah
lazs
LOL Lazs I suggest you never say that to a real bomber crew or you'll be in trouble!
Bombers had less influence on the outcome of war than fighters??? I remind you that fighters are essentially a DEFENSIVE weapon (defending territory against bombers or defending bombers against other fighters). Bombers are the offensive part of air power. Jabos cross the two, without being as good as the pure fighter or the pure bomber.
Bombers haven't bombed airfield. Does Battle of britain ring a bell here? Without Hitler's decision to bomb the cities after the Berlin symbolic bombing, the RAF would have been exhausted due to damege to airfields.
When allies took the initiative, they went for airplanes factories instead of grass airfield with dispersed planes. Those raids greatly limited the production of axis powers.
If I follow you, the 500-1,000 bombers raid where organized to keep the bomber boys busy and entertain everybody with the fireworks?
Ususally, strafing damage (with the exception of planes destroyed on the ground) was repaired in a couple of hours thanks to the 'help' of local population...Time to go back to school...
Bombers aren't modelled 100% correct. Agree. Neither are the fighters:
-no radiator flaps
-no engine temperature management
-no O2 management
-instantaneous bail-out
-you can squeeze your head in impossible places
-icons....
-unlimited lives
-pilot doesn't get tired when pulling Gs during long minutes
-no icing
Do you want me to go on?
A simulation will never be perfect.
If you feel something is deeply wrong in the bombers modelling, try to suggest constructive improvements instead of calling names to the people who don't play the GAME like you want them to.
de Selys
Airman
332nd Flying Mongrels
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In actual fact the Allied philosophy of strategic bombing was a failure, as all strategic bombing was doomed to be until the advent of a truely strategic weapon (Hiroshima).
The LW's tactical bombing, however, worked well when closely tied to Whermacht objectives.
The objection I have to the way buffs are used in AH is that we have strategic bombers pursuing tactical targets. Just about the only buff to see strategic use in AH is the Arado.
These may be of interest:
http://www.anesi.com/ussbs02.htm (http://www.anesi.com/ussbs02.htm)
http://www.anesi.com/ussbs01.htm (http://www.anesi.com/ussbs01.htm)
However, Buffs are nowhere near as "gamey" as the C.V.'s.
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Alright, after re-reading all of lazs' posts in this thread, I kinda get the jist of what he's saying, and here it is: (p.s. lazs, don't tell me you never said these, read yer posts)
1.)Bombers should be removed from the game. They are too gamey to be even considered for a flight sim such as this. Those who fly them are skill-less A-Holes with nothing better to do than ruin my flight experience. I don't pay $30 a month to have a bomber ruin my "historic dogfights" (aka furballs)
2.)While we're at it, let's remove the C-47. That way, I won't have to worry about stupid enemies capturing my fields, so the "historic dogfights" (aka furballs) won't end.
3.)Let's also remove the ability for fighters to jabo. If they can jabo, they can close fields and deprive me of my "historic dogfights" (aka furballs)
4.)Also, I want HTC to make a map that has only 3 indestructble fields on it, so that we can all engage in "historic dogfights" (aka furballs)
Face it, lazs. You are getting pissed off at bombers and bomber pilots because they aren't playing the way you want. None of your posts make any valid points as to why they should be removed, all I've seen is that they are depriving you of your "historic dogfights" (aka furballs) and that you're mad because of this.
Until you can make a valid point as to why the bombers should be removed, rather than complaining just because YOU have a problem with them, then maybe someone will listen. But until you stop being so self centered and thinking "I am Lazs, the center of the universe. All shall do as I command" no one will back you...
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Nooo... the point still remains that bombers have too big an effedt on the fighter war while the oppossite is not true. this is nothing like WWII save for the BOB where very few planes and airfields were involved. I did not say that bombers had less effect on the war than fighters as has been stated. Nor, did i say anything about c47's or a multitude of other things I am credited with.
Look at it this way.... say the bombers in the game were limited by a number that corresponded to the number that would be parked at the airfield. Now, say that every time in the game that they were all strafed into burning hulks that they were no longer available at that field... Now the effect of fighters would be great (and realistic) on the bomber game. fighters would have more reason to attack a field and risk the ack. My guess is that the bomber guys would scream bloody murder when suddenly they were affected by other players in any way other than the joke of an attack on them. And why shouldn't the guns on buffs have to be manned by real people? If you can't even get up a crew...
And yes... I am saying that if one element has too big and lopsided of an effect on other elements then yes.... something should be done. especially if the element having such a large effect consists of so few players comparitively. Conversely.... you are saying that we "need" bombers in the game even tho they are so badly done and even tho we need to bribe people into flyin em with outrageous, concession ridden and unrealistic features. The case for having buffs seems weak and unfair. It is like a bribe given to small children just to get em to shut up.
so far the only argument for bombers in the game seems to be "so that we can say we have em".
lazs
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and sw... they werent that tough. lone nightfighters brought down lanks by the score... B17's were easily killed by 20 or so rounds... Jap bombers died in clumps to single U.S. fighters sure, fighters had a lot of time to set up attacks but still.....
Think of it this way. Every fight you have with another fighter is a simulation of what would have happened. the fields are close together and the alts are low but it is still a simulation of events, "realistic".
With bombers..... They are flying much higher than the average player... The "time to target" once they are at alt is short. Any attack on them doesn't have the hours it normally would in WWII. the plane is piloted by one guy who has his guns slaved to one input and the range stretched out. There is no pentration that would allow 50 or so .50's to kill every gunner in the plane. their only targets are ones that affect fighters (something that is completely wrong) and they have laser guided bombs that can shut down a field in seconds. They are a very few of the player base and are affectin a very many. suicide bombers are 10 times more effective than suicide fighters.
Until buffs can be affected by fighters and/or they have some realistic targets... they are a joke for the lame to game the game in. fix em and we will talk again.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs1:
and sw... they werent that tough. lone nightfighters brought down lanks by the score... B17's were easily killed by 20 or so rounds... Jap bombers died in clumps to single U.S. fighters sure, fighters had a lot of time to set up attacks but still.....
I've seen that figure thrown around a lot.. the 20 or so 20mm rounds. Problem is, were these B17s already damaged? What did they hit? Bomber's wings and tails just don't fall off like they do in AH. The preferred points to aim at were the engines and cockpit.
As for the US shooting down Jap bombers in droves, you are absolutely correct. Of course they were using the G4M Betty that was a flying cigar. One shot, one light.
In all honesty Lazs, I don't like the bombers either. Especially when the people flying them game the hell out of them up to 35K where even a freaking Ta152 is like a rock without wings! (You know who you are.. I tried to intercept you while you attacked Knight HQ)
If they put a hard code alt limit on the bombers, then it would be a whole hell of a lot better.
A) Wind drift meant bombers were ineffective unless there were hoards of them above 20K.
B) B17s effective alt fully loaded was 26-27K.. not 35-38K!!!
C) It took B17s TEN minutes to line up their targets, atleast make the in game bombsight SOMEWHAT harder to use than this "point and release" crap.
D) I agree with you lazs, ironically, but I don't believe they should be removed. Just made a whole hell of a lot less of a weenie mess.
-SW
[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
...In all honesty Lazs, I don't like the bombers either. Especially when the people flying them game the hell out of them up to 35K where even a freaking Ta152 is like a rock without wings! (You know who you are.. I tried to intercept you while you attacked Knight HQ)...
[ 07-17-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
Hehehehe, been there, done that. (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=009936)
SW, I subscribe each of your points, and quite more beyond :)
Cheers,
Pepe
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Ya'all is talkin 'bout bummers, raaaight?
I saw a bummer once..
Dude stepped off the curb; got hit by a truck..
Bummer.
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A Question.
Does any one know how many fighters B17s shot down and vice versa in WW2.I know B17s did shoot down a lot of fighters and ack killed a lot of buffs.Maybe more than fighters did.Maybe not.Itwould be interesting to know.