Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Halo on April 03, 2007, 09:36:56 PM
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Do any of you ever have a problem chambering your first shot from a magazine in a semiautomatic pistol?
In various self defense threads, it has often been mentioned that a revolver is generally more intrinsically reliable since all we have to do is pull the trigger or **** (male rooster) the hammer and pull the trigger.
I really like my Springfield XD .45, but I have to admit I occasionally botch the first shell chambering by not pulling the slide back far enough. Or sometimes in various drills I get too exuberant and pull the slide back too far, locking it open.
Not too cool if that was an emergency. I guess that's why military and law enforcement usually go ahead and chamber the first round so they won't have to do that in a crisis.
For extra safety in home defense, I never keep a gun loaded. I can quickly grab a loaded magazine and chamber the first shot. Except I know I occasionally mess up that first round chambering.
Is there something I'm missing about chambering the first shot in a semiautomatic pistol? Any of you ever have a similar problem? Any thoughts or recommendations?
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One thought:
Load the gun.
You have trouble chambering a round if there IS NOT an imminent threat. If you can't chamber a round 500 times straight, without looking or thinking, either load the gun and put the safety on, or get rid of the gun and get something else.
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You never have trouble chambering a round in a semiauto? Am I the village klutz? :confused:
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Have you tried a different clip? A bad clip can cause you all sorts of problems. That's why some folks never fully load their clips so as not to wear out the spring.
Also, The type of ammo you feed it makes a big difference. Anyone who says that .45 FMJ is not enough needs to have their head examined.
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Yes, I have three different magazines. I keep two loaded nearby and one empty magazine in the XD. I fire the gun periodically at an indoor range and rotate the magazines.
I don't use fancy ammo. The XD seems fine after about 300 rounds of American Eagle and Atlanta Arms .45 ACP FMJ.
I practice enough that I'm reasonably proficient in clearing a misfeed and reloading. The gun is great, but I wish it had a more definite intermediate spot or feeling where the optimum chambering point is.
I've fired a lot of semiautomatic pistols but don't recall any of them having a particularly distinct optimum point in the slide for chambering the first round.
I need to know if I'm missing something or there is a way to always successfully chamber that first round.
I know I shouldn't be using the XD for home defense unless I solve this problem. But I also know I can work around it fast enough that it still is a good home defense choice.
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Is the spring in the slide set right? Field strip it, clean it real good and put it back together then try again to load it.
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Originally posted by Xargos
Have you tried a different clip? A bad clip can cause you all sorts of problems. That's why some folks never fully load their clips so as not to wear out the spring.
Also, The type of ammo you feed it makes a big difference. Anyone who says that .45 FMJ is not enough needs to have their head examined.
Fully loading a clip doesn't wear the spring out. Keeping it fully loaded, does.
But as to the problem with the gun, I don't personally understand. Both my .45 and my Taurus don't engage open if there are any bullets in the magazine. So pulling all the way back isn't a problem, because the catch doesn't keep the slide back.
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Originally posted by Halo
You never have trouble chambering a round in a semiauto? Am I the village klutz? :confused:
The only time I have problems is when I'm trying tricks and fooling around. My self shuckers always swallow their ammo without complaint, when I'm serious about it. Any of mine chamber on the first try, pulling the slide all the way back. I wouldn't have one that won't.
It may be your weapon of choice. It may also be your handing of it. I lean towards the weapon, if you have to "hit a sweet spot" to get it to swallow. Get it fixed or find it a new owner.
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keeping a spring loaded does not wear it out, loading and unloading it does.
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Originally posted by Xargos
keeping a spring loaded does not wear it out, loading and unloading it does.
Wrong. Blatantly wrong.
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No gun that does not function flawlessly is useful for defense. If it won't function reliably, you cannot be sure you can make it function under stress. The lives of you and your family could hang in the balance, would you trust the lives of your family to a weapon you cannot trust? I would not.
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Good thoughts, and I've stripped the XD and cleaned it. Generally the XD seems to work fine. The only shells that didn't feed were the first time I used each of the first two magazines. But then one didn't feed right the other day.
And then, as the pistol gets broken in, it's easier to yank the slide back too far and lock it open. That requires jettisoning the magazine, pulling the slide back and letting it go so it closes, then reinserting the magazine and recocking the slide to load the first cartridge.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Wrong. Blatantly wrong.
You don't know what you are talking about.
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Originally posted by Halo
Good thought, and I've done that. Generally the XD seems to work fine. The only shells that didn't feed were the first time I used each of the first two magazines. But then one didn't feed right the other day.
And then, as the pistol gets broken in, it's easier to yank the slide back too far and lock it open. That requires jettisoning the magazine, pulling the slide back and letting it go so it closes, then reinserting the magazine and recocking the slide to load the first cartridge.
Are you saying that the XD does lock open even if it has a loaded mag in it?
You don't know what you are talking about. You really need to get your money back from that collage.
What is this? The third, or fourth time you've misspelled college when trying to insult me? Normally I don't care about typos, but the irony is just devastating.
Any spring can be operated within it's normal bounds many many many times with minimal fatigue. It's when you put it near the normal bounds and keep it there that is the trouble.
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(quote) Are you saying that the XD does lock open even if it has a loaded mag in it? (unquote)
Good point, lasersailor. I practice feeding loaded magazines at home, but I won't chamber a shell at home. So I've had the slide lock open only when there is an empty magazine in it.
The manual says the slide could be locked open with a loaded magazine; I'll have to doublecheck that at the range. I cleared those few misfeeds at the range without needing to lock the slide back.
I'm still curious about 100% shell feeding, though. The few times a shell didn't load, I thought I simply didn't pull the slide back enough. There's a feel that comes with practice, of course.
Yet I still marvel that apparently some of you have never had this problem, so I have to wonder if my problem is me or the gun? Probably me.
Note this gets back to the core debate whether a revolver or pistol is more reliable for home defense. As some have pointed out, revolvers can screw up too if the cylinder is not fully seated or a shell is not fully inserted.
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Laser, have you had any firearm training, because it is very clear that you have not.
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Originally posted by Halo
Good point, lasersailor. I'll have to wait to get back to the range to check that again. I practice feeding loaded magazines at home, but I won't chamber a shell at home.
If the gun show is ever in town, pick yourself up a couple (2-3) dry firing shells. They are these neat little plastic red shells that have a spring loaded fake primer that doesn't wear out your firing pin nearly as quickly as dry firing does.
Anyway, the catch to hold the slide back is just a little lever (at least on the 1911 and pt99) that protrudes into the magazine. When the follower of the magazine gets to the top, it pushes that lever up, which pushes up the mechanical action on the outside in to a little dent which physically holds open the slide.
Again, I'm assuming the XD action is the same (I've never even held one), but if there is even one bullet in the magazine, it shouldn't catch unless you use a finger to push the latch to keep it open.
Laser, have you had any firearm training, because it is very clear that you have not.
No. No firearm training at all. In fact, I've never even fired a gun. I just like to collect them to look at them occasionally. And also to clean them. Even though they aren't dirty, the smell of Hoppes #9 is just divine.
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That is probably the truth and your just trying to sound sarcastic.
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Originally posted by Xargos
keeping a spring loaded does not wear it out, loading and unloading it does.
That is correct.
And pistols DO NOT USE CLIPS! They use magazines.
A clip is a small piece of metal that holds rounds by the base of the cartridge that are fed into a rifle or into a magazine.
For Gods sakes people, get it right. It isn't hard.
And no, I don't have trouble loading the first round into a semi-auto. Pull the slide all the back until it stops, then let go. Do not slowly close the action, let it slam forward as designed. If you can't get the slide all the way back, have your wife chamber the first round for you, since you are too weak.
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Clip is easier to spell. :D
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Originally posted by Halo
I really like my Springfield XD .45, but I have to admit I occasionally botch the first shell chambering by not pulling the slide back far enough. Or sometimes in various drills I get too exuberant and pull the slide back too far, locking it open.
That sounds like a serious design flaw to me. As long as there are rounds left in the mag the slide should never lock open unless you manually do so using the thumb release. I would get a better designed gun.
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The XD has never locked open when I'm firing it. Only when I'm doing home drill with an UNLOADED magazine.
Yet the manual does say if there is a feeding problem, the slide can be pulled back and locked.
This is the same for all pistols, isn't it?
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It should only lock if you push that little lever up or when it's empty. I've owned some pistols that don't lock open at all regardless.
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It is 2AM, it is dark, you are sound asleep. You are awakened from this sound sleep by an intruder, in your home. You retrieve your weapon from the safe place of your choosing. It is not loaded. So, you attempt to load it and you...........
Originally posted by Halo
yank the slide back too far and lock it open. That requires jettisoning the magazine, pulling the slide back and letting it go so it closes, then reinserting the magazine and recocking the slide to load the first cartridge.
[/B]
You do this as you try to clear your head from a sound sleep, in the dark. Or at least you try. And MAYBE succeed.
Generally the XD seems to work fine. The only shells that didn't feed were the first time I used each of the first two magazines. But then one didn't feed right the other day.
You need the services of a professional gunsmith. And a competent firearms instructor. I'm not trying to be harsh, I just want you (and your family) to come out alive and unharmed in the event you should ever actually NEED a weapon.
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(quote) For Gods sakes people, get it right. It isn't hard.
If you can't get the slide all the way back, have your wife chamber the first round for you, since you are too weak. (unquote)
Dago, can you spell s u p e r i o r i t y c o m p l e x ?
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The Captain is right, take it to a gunsmith.
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Hmmm, okay, I'm hearing none of you has ever experienced this problem. I appreciate the insight and will take the XD over for consultation with local gun experts. Thanks for the perspective.
I'm sure the problem is me and not the XD. It's a great gun, and if any of you have not yet taken a good look at it, you'd be doing yourselves a favor if you would.
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I don't think he needs to get it to a gunsmith. He just needs to understand how it works.
A few times at the gun range should clear this all up. He tried to do something with an empty mag and panicked when it didn't respond the way he thought it would.
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Originally posted by Halo
The XD has never locked open when I'm firing it. Only when I'm doing home drill with an UNLOADED magazine.
Yet the manual does say if there is a feeding problem, the slide can be pulled back and locked.
This is the same for all pistols, isn't it?
The slide should ONLY lock open if you shoot the magazine dry. Or pull the slide back over an already empty magazine. Unless there's some sort of bizarre feature on that weapon. If the slide is SUPPOSED to lock if you pull it all the way back, with a full or semi full magazine in the weapon, then that's another reason I'm glad I DID NOT buy one of those things. If you are trying to drill with an empty magazine, and you pull the slide all the way back and it locks back, it is supposed to. You CANNOT drill for "making ready" with an empty magazine. It CANNOT be done. You are teaching yourself VERY bad habits at best, and practicing to get yourself (or someone you love) hurt or killed.
Part of owning a self shucker is learning the manual of arms, the right way. That means practicing loading, unloading, and ALL functions with loaded magazines in a safe place and in a safe manner. There is NO other way to learn to handle that weapon safely and properly. NONE.
The slide on my P-14 ONLY locks back when the magazine is dry (UNLESS I force the slide release lever up manually), because the magazine follower pushes the slide release lever up and locks the slide so you know the weapon is empty, and so you can shove another magazine in, press the slide release, and you again have a loaded, cocked weapon.
I keep my P-14 loaded, with the hammer down on a live round. If I need it, I pull it from it's holster, and pull the hammer back if I need to. My weapon is action ready as soon as I lay my hand on it. Because if I need a weapon, I need it NOW, and NOT after I load it and fumble with it for 15 seconds. I did look at the XD, and several others. I'll keep my 1911 based P-14, thanks, John Moses Browning was a true genius, and the 1911 is a marvel of simplicity, function, efficiency, and ergonomics.
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(quote) He tried to do something with an empty mag and panicked when it didn't respond the way he thought it would. (unquote)
aiiiiieeeeeeeeeee!!!!! shhrrrriiieeeeeeeeek!!!! :rolleyes:
That's panic.
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I'm sorry Halo, I just don't want you to get hurt from us giving you bad info. It would be nice if we could hold it in our hands in order to evaluate it properly.
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(quote) The slide should ONLY lock open if you shoot the magazine dry. Or pull the slide back over an already empty magazine. (unquote)
Yep, that's what it does. It never locks open at the range until the magazine is dry. It does lock open at home sometimes if I pull back too hard in my supersafe empty gun drills.
My poor XD. Under suspicion because I dared to ask a klutzy question. Oh well. Hey, I have no pride when it comes to needing to learn, especially about weapons.
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Originally posted by Halo
The XD has never locked open when I'm firing it. Only when I'm doing home drill with an UNLOADED magazine.
I see. I mistakenly thought you had trouble chambering the first round of a loaded magazine and inadvertently locked the slide open by pulling to hard on it. I would recommend that you buy dummy rounds to practice on (they are brightly colored to avoid a mixup with live rounds).
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(quote) I'm sorry Halo, I just don't want you to get hurt from us giving you bad info. It would be nice if we could hold it in our hands in order to evaluate it properly. (unquote)
That's okay, and I really do appreciate everyone's insight. Thought it might be a useful topic, but it seems I have needlessly alarmed some.
Don't worry, I always err on the side of caution. My home situation is relatively secure and affords me sufficient time to load a weapon in my own super cautious way, which I do practice often enough to stay reasonably competent.
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Originally posted by Halo
It does lock open at home sometimes if I pull back too hard in my supersafe empty gun drills.
You are NOT pulling back too hard then. You are drilling the wrong way. What you WILL end up with is a failure to chamber under stress. Why? Because you repeatedly practice NOT pulling the slide ALL THE WAY BACK. That is an EXCELLENT way to learn to produce a failure to chamber or feed on a regular basis, especially under stress. You are teaching your muscles, and your sub-conscious memory, NOT to pull the slide all the way back. You muscles and your sub-conscious memory will learn the lesson VERY well. Stop teaching the lesson.
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If you can shoot at least 50 round a month that would be good.
Also I've noticed that some people don't wash their hands after shooting, please do not be one of them because you can get lead poisoning if you don't. I hope you take a gun course in the near future just to be on the safe side because we all pick up bad habits if we don't.
I hope that didn't sound demeaning.
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Halo, if you're going to keep your weapon unloaded, then drill this way:
Have someone make you a box (20-50) of dummy rounds (empty brass with a bullet seated, no powder, no primer). Take your dummy rounds, and color them RED with a magic marker, or with machinists layout dye. DO NOT paint them, as the paint will come off in your weapon. Unload your weapon and all three magazines. Remove the live ammunition from the room. Load all three magazines equally with the dummy rounds. Place the empty weapon on the table, with a magazine nearby. Pick up the weapon, pick up the magazine, insert it in the weapon, cycle the slide fully, and raise the weapon to the ready position. STOP. Relax. Release the magazine. Pull the slide back, empty the chamber, release the slide. Place the weapon and a magazine on the table. Repeat. Repeat.
Also, place one dummy round in each magazine. Place the weapon on the table, empty, and a magazine (with one dummy round loaded in it) nearby. Pick up the weapon, pick up the magazine, and make ready. STOP. Now, cycle the slide again. This will eject the dummy round, and the slide will stop in the open position. Now, release the magazine, pick up another, insert it in the weapon, and release the slide. Repeat.
When you are finished, unload all of the dummy rounds from the weapon and magazines. Remove it from the room. Bring the live rounds into the room, and load to the condition you prefer.
This is the proper method fro drilling without live rounds. It will teach your sub -conscious memory and your muscles the correct lessons, and you will not be as prone to screw up under stress.
Not drilling at all is safer than drilling incorrectly. At least you learn no lesson at all rather than learn the wrong lesson.
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Hi Halo,
Originally posted by Halo
You never have trouble chambering a round in a semiauto? Am I the village klutz? :confused:
While it is possible you are, I definitely am. I have a BDA 380 and I frequently have trouble with the slide. All in all, I deeply regret not buying the Sig P232 instead. Some day I'm going to have to trade up.
So no, you aren't the only one with sore thumbs.
- SEAGOON
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Virgil you don’t need to have the dummy rounds custom made. Just buy some. Safer, and the dampening primers will reduce wear on the firing pin.
http://www.shootnhunt.com/catalog/JM/gun_accessories/dummy_rounds_snap_caps/index.html
(http://images.shootnhunt.com/images/1018667.jpg)
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I reload, so I'd make my own, if I were of a mind to drill that way. I much prefer actually dummy rounds as they tend to give a better feel, and perform like the real thing (I did drill that way some, years ago, for department training). Modern firing pins and springs are difficult to damage or wear out. The old adage against dry firing dates back to leaf springs in Colt SAA revolvers and such, and doesn't really apply to modern metallurgy. It doesn't HURT to use snap caps and such, but you won't harm a good quality weapon with normal dry firing.
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What is this? The third, or fourth time you've misspelled college when trying to insult me? Normally I don't care about typos, but the irony is just devastating.
What gives you the idea it was a typo or misspell? :rofl
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Originally posted by Halo
(quote) Are you saying that the XD does lock open even if it has a loaded mag in it? (unquote)
Yet I still marvel that apparently some of you have never had this problem, so I have to wonder if my problem is me or the gun? Probably me.
Halo, don't feel bad about this. Most guys that own semi's own guns w/ a 1911 type mechanism. The 1911's don't lock open w/ a mag in the weapon if you pull it all the way back, unless the mag is empty. Your XD 45 has a different mechanism than most typical semi's.
That said, Virgil is dead on w/ his advice. One twist I would add is: After you have become proficient w/ the loading drills Virgil mentioned, try it in the dark, get used to doing it completely by feel. This may seem silly but it's a nice skill to have if you are going to keep your home defense weapon unloaded.
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Originally posted by Halo
Good thoughts, and I've stripped the XD and cleaned it. Generally the XD seems to work fine. The only shells that didn't feed were the first time I used each of the first two magazines. But then one didn't feed right the other day.
And then, as the pistol gets broken in, it's easier to yank the slide back too far and lock it open. That requires jettisoning the magazine, pulling the slide back and letting it go so it closes, then reinserting the magazine and recocking the slide to load the first cartridge.
Well I've never fired or used a XD BUT................ IIRC..............
If you have a loaded magazine FULLY in place the slide should NOT lock when pulled all the way back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It should only lock when the mag is EMPTY!
Suggest something APPEARS to be NOT right with your firearm or your ammo??????????
Are you using standard 45 ammo in your firearm?
IIRC there is now a shorter 45 ammo available?
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Halo, research this problem on the net... check stovepipes and failure to feed probs for that gun. if you are going to keep it, better do tap and rack drills. i wouldn't be comfortable at all with that.
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I like revolvers but I also like my Kimber 45.. no matter what tho... you need to be comfortable with your firearm.. revolver or semi auto.. it should be second nature.
Some things... I heard in here... That a revolver will fail if you don't get the cyl latched all the way? that is pretty odd.. How the hell do you do that? I have never done that. Or... the round is not fully seated? How do you do that? and... why are these things relevant? you leave the gun fully loaded.
That the springs on semi autos "take a set"? this is odd to me too... both wilson and chip mcCormack claim that their springs will NOT take a set.. this is a fairly safe bet since I have seen GI mags that were loaded with 7 rounds for 10 years work flawlessly..
Have any of you ever had a failure of a mag that you could attribute to the springs "taking a set"? I didn't think so.. laser may of read about it tho.
Not being able to keep mags loaded for a semi auto makes it one hell of a lot less useful weapon in my opinion... I have 5 mags loaded for the Kimber and the CZ and have never had a problem with em. I will often just use one or two.. the others might sit loaded for years.
I don't understand the whole thing anyway... if you only have one handgun and it is important to you... why aren't you drilling with it in front of the tv in your spare time? Getting so that you can do everything by feel?
If you can't get a round in the chamber then you should never have gotten the gun. If you can't close the cyl on a revolver then you shouldn't own any gun.
I will admit that I find any levers short of a slide release and mag release on a semiauto to be stupid.
lazs
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amazing, the slide locks back on a empty magazine, absolutely amazing.
i don't know what to say.
take a firearms training course.
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Have any of you ever had a failure of a mag that you could attribute to the springs "taking a set"? I didn't think so.. laser may of read about it tho.
i've never heard of that. my gun is always loaded - mags loaded to capacity for years - never any problem. new mags have usually gone from being really stiff when brand new, to a little less stiff after being broke in. but then they stay that way and do not lose strength.
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I got into the habit of rotating my magazines. Out of three to five magazines, each month I unload one, and load the one that was unloaded in the previous month. Probably not necessary. I've seen people take a 1911 that was left loaded with the same magazine and ammunition, including the one round in the chamber, for 20 years or more, and shoot it dry, with no failure to feed or eject.
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See Rules #2, #4, #5, #16? (last warning for you, next time you are banned)
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Laz, I had a Colt officers model .45 and it had a double spring in the slide. If you did not put it in just right it would cause problems. It is the only auto that I ever had that problem and I did not keep it long.
As for the statement on not loading the mags all the way, I kept some aside that where fully loaded but did not use as often at the range and the ones that I did use the most at the range I would load them one short trying to make the spring last a little longer. I know many other people in law enforcement who do the same thing.
P.S. The reason I used the term "set" is because that was the term the gunsmith at the prison I worked at used when he looked at it.
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My XD 45 was a little stiff new as can be expected. After about 150 rounds through it you'll find if get better. As for locking back.... it should never lock back unless the clip is empty. Springfield has lifetime warrantee... I suggest you contact them.
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I'm getting out of all the responses you've made that this problem ONLY occurs when your SIMULATING loading the weapon at home. Is this correct? You've also stated that you DO NOT use live rounds when practicing this at home, and are doing so with an EMPTY magazine. Is this correct?
If the above statements are true, then what is happening is to be expected. With an empty mag in the pistol, if you pull the slide fully to the rear it WILL lock open on the empty mag. It's designed to do this. With a live round in the mag the slide should never lock open if pulled fully to the rear unless you are manualy engaging the locking lever.
Has this situation ever occured at the range when firing live ammo? If you are having feed issues at the range it could be several things. 1. you are not pulling the slide fully to the rear. 2. the magazine is not seated all the way in the pistol. 3. the ammo your using, the pistol doesn't like it. 4. the magazine is defective.
As some other people have suggested, go buy yourself some "Snap Caps" (practice rounds) and use them. They can be purchased at any gun store and most ranges I've been to will have them. You can also order them online from many places. Here's a link just in case you need it.
MidwayUSA (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=691109)
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Lazs, I had one decent mag (not a quality, but not a cheap one either) have problems with the last round feeding after keeping it fully loaded (7 rounds) for about 3 months.
I have since bought two quality ones from Numrich which have worked really well, but I keep them unloaded, mainly because I don't have them with me, nor a need for them right now.
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About the spring issue..
It depends on the steel of which the spring is made of. If its low quality stuff it will wear out whatever you do. Putting it away loaded will tire it out, loading and unloading will kill it even faster.
Quality spring steel and a spring made out of it for its purpose (ie well engineered), will ONLY wear out due to cycling, i.e. loading-unloading procedures. Static load will do absolutely nothing to it.
Matt
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Originally posted by Halo
The XD has never locked open when I'm firing it. Only when I'm doing home drill with an UNLOADED magazine.
Yet the manual does say if there is a feeding problem, the slide can be pulled back and locked.
This is the same for all pistols, isn't it?
Yes, an unloaded mag will cause the slide to lock open. Get youself some "snapcaps" 9mm example (http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=642438) (dummy rounds) and load your mag with them. Then you won't have the problem of the slide locking to the rear while practicing.
To lock the slide back with a loaded mag in the pistol, you have to manually hold the "slide lock" lever up while pulling back and releasing the slide.
The proper way to chamber the first round from a full mag in a semi auto pistol is to pull the slide FULLY to the rear and release it. Do not hold onto the the slide as it returns to battery as this will reduce it's inertia. Allow it to return to battery with it's full inertia.
Terror
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lazer... mags fail for any of a number of reasons... the spring taking a set because it was left in a loaded condition is not one of em tho so far as I have been able to tell.
If I thought that a mag would be useless after being left loaded for 3 months... or three years for that matter, I would not even own such a mag.
lazs
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Lazs, I had one decent mag (not a quality, but not a cheap one either) have problems with the last round feeding after keeping it fully loaded (7 rounds) for about 3 months.
I have since bought two quality ones from Numrich which have worked really well, but I keep them unloaded, mainly because I don't have them with me, nor a need for them right now.
It should have worked after only 3 months Laser. Maybe the "feed ramp" is at fault? Just saying is all, seems weird after that short of time.
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Originally posted by Halo
(quote) For Gods sakes people, get it right. It isn't hard.
If you can't get the slide all the way back, have your wife chamber the first round for you, since you are too weak. (unquote)
Dago, can you spell s u p e r i o r i t y c o m p l e x ?
Halo, can your grasp sarcastic humor? (apparently not)
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Well, guys, thanks again for your concern and advice. I thought I was doing everything fine, but obviously I wasn't.
Ironically, I've had Snap-Caps for other guns, but the .45 was always out of stock. Today I found some. And they have made a world of difference. Guns are sold with nearly all the basic stuff needed nowadays, but they should include Snap-Caps too.
I took my XD to the gun store and consulted with a couple of the experts. They quickly assured me and demonstrated that the XD does NOT lock open with a loaded magazine.
So as some of you mentioned, my practicing with an unloaded magazine was almost worse than not practicing at all because I was not only making wrong assumptions but doing wrong "corrections."
To my embarrassment I realized my left hand is not strong enough to reliably chamber shells in the pistol! Geez I hate that. But, gotta face the facts. I was dinking and fudging the slide when I should have been snapping it with authority.
Fortunately I have no trouble holding the XD in my left hand and cocking the slide with my right hand. That's what I should have been doing all along. My own quirky but effective way of fixing the problem.
Without the Snap-Caps to verify if a shell was in the chamber, I had no way of knowing many of my make-believe chamberings were not happening. As Virgil in particular was warning me, I was "learning" the wrong lessons.
This has been a revelation. I'm not even going to try cocking large pistols anymore with the traditional right hand hold and left hand ****, both hands facing forward.
Instead, I need to hold the pistol in the left hand, hand facing backward, and **** the slide with the right hand facing forward and pulling backward. Sets up much better opposing forces for me. Know thyself, huh?
Mighy take a few more seconds, but better slower and correct than faster and wrong.
The XD as always is perfect. What a great gun. Still my favorite home defense and plinker. But much as I studied it, I didn't continue far enough to graduate with the Snap-Caps. Now I think we're combat ready, although as many of you have said, only with good periodic practice to include, of course, shooting at the firing range.
Thanks again to all of you for insisting I realize something not only was amiss but needed to be fixed quickly, and then showing me the best way to do it.
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(quote) Halo, can your grasp sarcastic humor? (apparently not) (unquote)
To paraphrase W. Rogers, I never met a Humor I didn't like, but Sarcasm is smirking on the edge. Gets tedious quickly, e.g., most people tolerate Leno better than Rickles.
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Wait, you're not strong enough to rack the slide? That doesn't seem right.
Also, Mash, we had previously polished the feed ramp. I had an absolutely ****ty mag that would have trouble feeding wolf, and other cheaper ammos. But it could feed decent ammo, and the other mags we had didn't have a problem.
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(quote) Wait, you're not strong enough to rack the slide? That doesn't seem right. (unquote)
I'm in good shape but you know how things go physically -- some things come naturally and some don't. I can barely rack the slide with with both hands facing forward and my arms extemded
It feels much easier and more efficient to hold the pistol with my left hand facing backward on the grip, tuck it in toward my chest, and then rack the slide back with my right hand.
I've seen other shooters who also seem to gravitate to this method. It gives strong opposing forces since I'm pulling in opposite directions rather than one hand being passive while the other does all the work.
Different strokes for different folks.
This is a better description of what works for me than previous. It's much easier to do than describe.
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On a note...
You should be somewhat careful in the handling of your mags. If you drop one on the top magazine 'lips', You can damage the mag to where it won't load into the well properly, or allow the slide to strip rounds outta the mag as it cycles.
About a year and a half ago I went shopping for a semi-auto, something in the .40 S&W- to .45 ACP category. After looking at quite a few offerings all through the different price ranges(Kimber, Glock, a Taurus, S&W, Even a Springfield XD) I decided on...A Ruger P345.
The price was more affordable, although I had to settle for a gun with a Poly Frame( Not a problem after 250 rnds., but I still kinda wish I'd went Metal-Framed)I passed up a XD for it. Partly, the Springfield they had was a .45 GAP. I knew nothing of this round, aside from the guy behind the counter saying that even though the case was shorter, propellant advances gave it almost the same ballistics as a .45 ACP.
I've been more than happy with the ruger, but only time will tell with it. It's a simple gun, very easy to fieldstrip/ Put back together and clean. It has good enough accuracy for a gun in it's class. If I wanted a super tackdriver, and had 1,200$ to spend, I'd have gotten a Springfield V-16, But it's not what I was in the market for.
Halo, I do have one question for you. Do you have kids in the house? If you do, then I would include in your loading drill, the time it takes to get the lock off. I live here in Cali. Now, the law says you have to have a lock when you buy a firearm. I keep mine locked, which is a 4" padlock that goes through the weapon with the slide locked back and no magazine in the well. I always keep the key within 2' feet of me, even when I sleep. I've drilled with it, and you can get the lock off fairly quickly...But you always wonder when that lock may choose that moment to jam, or the key to snap off.
I'm not advocating that you DON'T use a lock...But, If it's a factor where you live, It is something else you should consider.
P.S. When the gun IS locked up, or you are locking it up, careful feeding the lock through, you could potentially damage internal parts, increasing the chance of failure.
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(quote) Halo, I do have one question for you. Do you have kids in the house? If you do, then I would include in your loading drill, the time it takes to get the lock off. (unquote)
No, the kids are long gone and grown with their own kids. Just the wife and myself.
On the lock question, I've never used gun locks. I think they're mostly political. I've talked to several guys who lament how difficult locks have made it for them to get their guns ready in a contingency.
People have their own home defense comfort zones. Mine is unloaded gun in one out of sight place, ammo in another out of sight place, periodic drills (now including Snap-Caps) to make sure I can quickly get the gun functional in pitch dark confusion.
I've also become a believer in laser/light attached to XD .45 ACP. Best home defense and plinking system I've ever had, by far.
Careful people did fine in the pre-lock era, and do fine now too. Like many here on Aces High, I introduced my kids to guns at an early age (around 8 to 10) to satisfy their curiosity and to impress on them how dangerous guns are unless always handled with the utmost caution and safety.
While the kids were home, I had .22 rifles on a gun rack in the den, and a .357 revolver that was the main home defense. I kept the bullets away from the guns and never allowed a loaded gun in the house.
The kids knew where the guns were and probably the bullets too. But we never had any problems. I always told them if they EVER handled any of the guns without me being there, they would never touch a gun again.
Conversely, anything they wanted to know about guns, or whenever they wanted to look at the guns or handle them, all they had to do was ask me, and I would demonstrate or supervise whatever they wanted to learn. They were never to handle a gun unless I was there and authorized it. Guns were and are part of the general tools and implements of our household.
I drilled safety into them every time we got near a gun, and took them to target practice and plinking a couple times a year. They grew up proud they knew about guns and respectful of what guns could do.
None of us hunt, so we don't kill anything. If we would eat the game, fine, we'd kill it. Just no wanton killing. If we lived rural and had varmints, fine, we'd kill them as necessary. But we've always been suburban.
I inbued them with the usual litany of how guns are a responsibility of free people and we have the right to self defense. We're fortunate to have a great military and law enforcement system, but if the worst happens, we most likely would have to take care of ourselves until help arrives. That's among the most important facts of life.
My oldest daughter has succumbed to her husband's family's traditions of no guns (and they're Jewish -- go figure!). My son and youngest daughter enjoy guns and are training their kids as they were trained.
It's a different world now with the system in some states ready to hang citizens who don't keep their guns locked up to the point they would be useless or seriously compromised if needed in an emergency. It's the usual reaction to some unfortunate accidents, and it's also a ploy of the faction that would make guns totally illegal if they could (then only the establishment and criminals would have guns, a very unhealthy situation). We would reduce the traffic slaughter too if we just locked up our vehicles.
Sorry for rambling, but the family and gun lock question needs this perspective.
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Originally posted by Halo
(quote) Wait, you're not strong enough to rack the slide? That doesn't seem right. (unquote)
I'm in good shape but you know how things go physically -- some things come naturally and some don't. I can barely rack the slide with with both hands facing forward and my arms extemded
It feels much easier and more efficient to hold the pistol with my left hand facing backward on the grip, tuck it in toward my chest, and then rack the slide back with my right hand.
I've seen other shooters who also seem to gravitate to this method. It gives strong opposing forces since I'm pulling in opposite directions rather than one hand being passive while the other does all the work.
Different strokes for different folks.
This is a better description of what works for me than previous. It's much easier to do than describe.
I don't have any trouble chambering the first round in any of my autos.
I have taught a fair amount of people to shoot over the years. The way I teach the people who have trouble yanking the slide back with an thumb and forefinger on the serations is to have them clamp their left and on the slide ahead of the ejection port, then push with their right hand on the grip using the whole arm in a pushing motion.
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That's a good technique. About the same as mine except hands are reversed. I prefer to keep both hands back on the gun rather than either near the barrel. I get a better grip on the back part of the slide away from the ejection port.
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Originally posted by Halo
(quote) Halo, I do have one question for you. Do you have kids in the house? If you do, then I would include in your loading drill, the time it takes to get the lock off. (unquote)
No, the kids are long gone and grown with their own kids. Just the wife and myself.
On the lock question, I've never used gun locks. I think they're mostly political. I've talked to several guys who lament how difficult locks have made it for them to get their guns ready in a contingency.
People have their own home defense comfort zones. Mine is unloaded gun in one out of sight place, ammo in another out of sight place, periodic drills (now including Snap-Caps) to make sure I can quickly get the gun functional in pitch dark confusion.
I've also become a believer in laser/light attached to XD .45 ACP. Best home defense and plinking system I've ever had, by far.
Careful people did fine in the pre-lock era, and do fine now too. Like many here on Aces High, I introduced my kids to guns at an early age (around 8 to 10) to satisfy their curiosity and to impress on them how dangerous guns are unless always handled with the utmost caution and safety.
While the kids were home, I had .22 rifles on a gun rack in the den, and a .357 revolver that was the main home defense. I kept the bullets away from the guns and never allowed a loaded gun in the house.
The kids knew where the guns were and probably the bullets too. But we never had any problems. I always told them if they EVER handled any of the guns without me being there, they would never touch a gun again.
Conversely, anything they wanted to know about guns, or whenever they wanted to look at the guns or handle them, all they had to do was ask me, and I would demonstrate or supervise whatever they wanted to learn. They were never to handle a gun unless I was there and authorized it. Guns were and are part of the general tools and implements of our household.
I drilled safety into them every time we got near a gun, and took them to target practice and plinking a couple times a year. They grew up proud they knew about guns and respectful of what guns could do.
None of us hunt, so we don't kill anything. If we would eat the game, fine, we'd kill it. Just no wanton killing. If we lived rural and had varmints, fine, we'd kill them as necessary. But we've always been suburban.
I inbued them with the usual litany of how guns are a responsibility of free people and we have the right to self defense. We're fortunate to have a great military and law enforcement system, but if the worst happens, we most likely would have to take care of ourselves until help arrives. That's among the most important facts of life.
My oldest daughter has succumbed to her husband's family's traditions of no guns (and they're Jewish -- go figure!). My son and youngest daughter enjoy guns and are training their kids as they were trained.
It's a different world now with the system in some states ready to hang citizens who don't keep their guns locked up to the point they would be useless or seriously compromised if needed in an emergency. It's the usual reaction to some unfortunate accidents, and it's also a ploy of the faction that would make guns totally illegal if they could (then only the establishment and criminals would have guns, a very unhealthy situation). We would reduce the traffic slaughter too if we just locked up our vehicles.
Sorry for rambling, but the family and gun lock question needs this perspective.
Thats how I was brought up. I still think it's the way to go.
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Originally posted by Halo
That's a good technique. About the same as mine except hands are reversed. I prefer to keep both hands back on the gun rather than either near the barrel.
I like being able to look down and see the rounds in the mag, so I can watch them go into the chamber, but I can see not wanting your hands near the barrel. ;)
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I have no problem at all chambering the first round. With most modern semi-auto handguns, this is not much different than having a loaded revolver with rounds in the current chamber AND the next one.
Standard military practice with the beretta 9mm is to have a round in the chamber with the safety off, and that's how I carry it when I'm armed while on duty. For personal carry, I usually have the safety engaged when carrying my beretta .40 but I still have a round in the chamber. Of course, I do not routinely carry that gun for personal defense and if I get a concealed carry permit, any gun I carry will be ready to go by simply squeezing the trigger.
In a situation where you need to use a handgun to protect yourself, any fiddling around with safetys and chambering a round is likely to get you killed. In situations where you're just carrying around a gun for whatever reason that is not for personal protection, there is still no reason to not chamber a round unless you're a total spaz or anticipate an untrained person getting their hands on the weapon. If you really think you need to carry a gun without a round in the chamber, you should probably not be carrying it at all because it's little more than an expensive hammer at that point.
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Heh, you're right, GtoRA2. I also want a good view of whether a cartridge is anywhere near entering the barrel. Now I'll be up all night doing contortions trying to devise the ultimate slide work. :eek:
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I should mention one thing - some weapons are no-kidding HOT anytime there is a round in the chamber, and those weapons should not be carried with a round chambered. The browning buckmark is one such model. The gun automatically ***** whenever a round is chambered, there is no way to de-**** the gun without pulling the trigger, the trigger is typically very light because that gun is popular for target shooting, and if you inadvertently forget to set the safety or flick the safety off, you might blow a hole in your foot or leg (or wall or friend or...) I do not recommend using a holster with a buckmark unless you are very careful to never chamber a round until you intend to shoot, and never ever holster or put away the gun without unloading it because that particular design is not very safe when a round is chambered.
It's rather like carrying around a revolver with the hammer cocked back... Not the smartest thing to do and definately not something you want to carry around in a holster.
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(quote) In a situation where you need to use a handgun to protect yourself, any fiddling around with safetys and chambering a round is likely to get you killed. In situations where you're just carrying around a gun for whatever reason that is not for personal protection, there is still no reason to not chamber a round unless you're a total spaz or anticipate an untrained person getting their hands on the weapon. If you really think you need to carry a gun without a round in the chamber, you should probably not be carrying it at all because it's little more than an expensive hammer at that point. (unquote)
You're right, eagl. Good people have been pounding that at me ever since I first mentioned a gun topic on Aces High. Somehow I've been in extreme denial, thinking I somehow would be safer if I just didn't chamber a round.
Duh. Chamber the round. Keep my finger OFF and AWAY from the trigger unless I ever need to pull it.
With my ultra conservative defense posture, I would have been dead any time I ever would have confronted a determined intruder.
Boy, some people take a long time to train, don't they?
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Originally posted by eagl
I should mention one thing - some weapons are no-kidding HOT anytime there is a round in the chamber, and those weapons should not be carried with a round chambered. The browning buckmark is one such model. The gun automatically ***** whenever a round is chambered, there is no way to de-**** the gun without pulling the trigger, the trigger is typically very light because that gun is popular for target shooting, and if you inadvertently forget to set the safety or flick the safety off, you might blow a hole in your foot or leg (or wall or friend or...) I do not recommend using a holster with a buckmark unless you are very careful to never chamber a round until you intend to shoot, and never ever holster or put away the gun without unloading it because that particular design is not very safe when a round is chambered.
It's rather like carrying around a revolver with the hammer cocked back... Not the smartest thing to do and definately not something you want to carry around in a holster.
I don't trust any pistol where I can't see the hammer.
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(quote) some weapons are no-kidding HOT anytime there is a round in the chamber, and those weapons should not be carried with a round chambered. The browning buckmark is one such model. (unquote)
eagl, you hereby are deputized as guardian angel. I have a Buckmark and it is as you say -- very sensitive on the trigger. Great gun, and fortunately I use it only for plinking and never have occasion to carry it holstered.
Thanks again.
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Halo,
I'm not being sarcastic at all when I say that people who don't feel comfortable with handling a loaded gun should probably sell the gun and buy a short but heavy baseball bat. There isn't anything wrong with using a bat instead of a gun, and for some people that's the best solution.
If you have a gun though, like you say it probably ought to be useful as a gun. With kids out of the house, I really don't think there is any safety benefit at all to keeping it unloaded and in fact it may be more hazardous because you will be training yourself to pick up and handle *unloaded* guns. That means if you end up picking up a loaded gun or get distracted and your mental process resets, you could find yourself firing off a round unintentionally because you've trained your mind to consider guns to be unloaded until you carry out a specific act to load them. That is an unsafe habit.
Instead, you should train yourself to consider ALL guns as being loaded until you carry out a specific act to unload them and make them safe. Ironically, this makes a loaded gun safer than an unloaded gun because with a loaded gun, you KNOW it could go off. With an unloaded gun, you don't know anything until you pull the trigger or take some other action to ensure it's status, because even though you *know* it's unloaded, maybe someone else loaded it or you forgot to unload it the last time you handled it.
That's how people get killed in gun accidents, training themselves to handle unloaded guns instead of loaded ones.
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I carry my buckmark in a nice blue plastic gun case with foam inside, and a little cut-out for the magazine to ensure it's obvious if I'm putting it away without the magazine removed.
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Halo, you can use the quote box above to quote someone, or place a [ before the word "quote", then a ] enter the statement you want to quote, then type a [ then a / then the word "quote" then a ]
if you do that, your quote will look like this
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Halo, if you suspect there is a problem with the gun, Springfield Armory guarantees their guns for life. You can send it to them and they will fix it without charge. The drawback is that you have to send it overnight if you ship it. Someone with an FFL can send it USPS priority mail for a lot less money. If you can find an FFL who will ship it for you. Maybe the one you bought it from? When it is sent back to you, you do not need to have a background check done on the gun because you already own it. If you send it to a gunsmith and he creates a new problem or does something to your gun, Springfield may not warranty it anymore. A phone call to Springfield may answer a lot of questions.
Also, carry the gun fully loaded as was said earlier. Under a stress full situation you may not even think of chambering a round, just point and shoot. Going click because the round was not chambered is not good. And I am not trying to sound condescending but the gun will not go off unless the finger is on the trigger. Lay your finger along side the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot.
Hopefully this isnt a repeat of something that was said.
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(quote) Halo, you can use the quote box above to quote someone, or place a [ before the word "quote", then a ] enter the statement you want to quote, then type a [ then a / then the word "quote" then a ]
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if you do that, your quote will look like this
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(unquote)
Heh, thanks, Dago, I'm a real Luddite with this message board's mechanics even after all these posts. I can just type quote and unquote faster than I have ever been able to get this format to work for me.
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(quote) Halo, if you suspect there is a problem with the gun, Springfield Armory guarantees their guns for life. You can send it to them and they will fix it without charge. (unquote)
Thanks, M36. The thread is getting pretty long and sometimes redundant now as long threads will do.
As I always though and now realize more than ever, the Springfield XD is just fine. The problem is me. I think I have a good handle (so to speak) on it now thanks to many helpful inputs.
Incidentally, I returned an ailing Single-Six .357 revolver to Ruger and as you indicate, the manufacturer did a beautiful refurbishing for no charge other than my shipping costs to them. What other industry backs up their products as well as the firearms industry?
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(quote) That's how people get killed in gun accidents, training themselves to handle unloaded guns instead of loaded ones. (unquote)
You know, eagl, that's true enough to be posted over doors leading to gun training centers. Seriously. I found my favorite motto like that. The door to the 87th Fighter Interceptor Squadron in Labrador said:
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." My favorite ever since.
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CC Halo. I have had a problem with children and my firearms, though. But, not in way that I ever thought would have been a problem.
At the time, my oldest son was in kindergarten(He's in 6th grade, now.) I had a #4 SMLE, Early issue with a Brass buttplate, a Romanian M-44 Carbine(A copy of the Mosin-Nagant M1891) and a Yugoslavian M24( A copy of the Kar 98.) My Rem 870 I'd left at my Dad's house, as when I went hunting, It was straight from there. My rifles, however, I kept at my house. Anyway, My children knew I kept my rifles there, And when I stored them, I'd jerk the bolts out and put a(n) gun-oil soaked rag in the receiver. The bolts, I'd kept up on a top shelf.
Well, My son thought that rifles with a mag sticking out the bottom(Like the Enfield) were really neat, and since he'd play army or some kind of gun battle game on the playground, He told his friends one day that his dad had a Machine gun. I don't know if another child said something, or if a teacher or yard aid overheard them talking, but The next day a CPS (Child Protective Services) worker shows up at my house, demanding to speak with us.
I was at work at the time. So, calling on my cell phone, I had to ask my Dad to Drive 25 miles over to my house, to get my rifles out and explain to this person what was going on. He came over, explained that they were Actually antiques, and That they were not Automatic weapons in the same genre as the AK-47. However...
The mags sticking out the bottom of the #4 and the M-44 made her think that we were Columbine part 2.
My Father, who was a trial attorney in CA for 35 yrs. and had retired some time before that, told her to hold off on the S&S writ, Got back on the phone with me, explained what was going on, and we agreed for him to take my rifles to his house.
This placated the CPS worker, who still came back later and talked to me and my wife again. Since the arangement my father had made was satisfactory to her(Yes, a "her")She just rehashed what had went on the previous day, the concerns that brought her out, yadda yadda yadda.
Now, this was California about 7 yrs. ago. I did'nt spank my son for it, I did'nt reprimand him even. I just told him,"I know you think that shooting's neat, and that alotta guns are cool, Brian, But please don't ever talk about Dad's guns, even to your friends, ever again." He agreed, And I've made the same agreement with my other 2 boys, in the intervening years. I waited until I got a locking gun Cabinet, and then brought my rifles back home. But, to this day, I'm conscious that If I take off on a job, and that something like that should happen again, I'm screwed now if I don't have a lock on 'em. Now, they'll impound the guns if thiers' children in the house, and I'd face prosecution.
One further thing: I don't know if it's standard on most pistols now, But my P345 has a loaded chamber indicator which pops up over the barrel when there's one up the spout. It's got red paint on it, hard to miss.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Wait, you're not strong enough to rack the slide? That doesn't seem right.
Also, Mash, we had previously polished the feed ramp. I had an absolutely ****ty mag that would have trouble feeding wolf, and other cheaper ammos. But it could feed decent ammo, and the other mags we had didn't have a problem.
ah, cc. I know Wolf doesn't mix well with a lot of pistols. I emailed Clay Novak and asked if I should have my feed ramp polished. He said no, I was just considering it for I have had around 8k rounds shot through my USP 45. I am thinking about getting him to install night sights on it though.
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I sympathize, FrodeMk3. The world is always changing, and it's sure different than when I grew up and when my kids grew up.
Life is always a balancing act between individual freedom and community rules. Sounds as if you and your Dad handled the social worker intrusion well.
If I still had kids at home, I might get ultra conservative and use gun locks. Especially if that was the law, I'd do it. If I thought the law needed to be changed, I'd campaign to change it.
Law or not, however, locks are just another thing kids can figure out if they want to. Hopefully not until they're old enough to know better. And if they're properly trained and motivated, that would never be an issue anyway.
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Too true. I was raised around firearms, have went on Dove and Quail, Duck hunts since I was 7...But where common sense once stood, now Uneducated fear now reigns.
Here's one I heard when I went to my local gun shop to pick up my Mini-14. There's a bill being proposed(CA, I assume) that would ban all magazine fed firearms. Not just Pistols, but Rifles and shotguns as well. Oh, sportsmen will still have single-shot rifles and shotguns...It doesn't completely ban firearms...
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One step at a time. First they banned real assault rifles made after 1986. Then they redefined the term assault rifle to include semi-automatic rifles. Now they're proceeding to the next step.
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I don't think the current trend of people who don't shoot much getting the latest and greatest gadget filled semi auto is a good one.
I also think that any attempt to make the gun unable to fire in any way that is more cumbersome than thumbing back the hammer/pressing the trigger is insane. locks? you are kidding.. why not store it at a gun club? Children need to be trained to not touch guns until they are old enough to handle them safely.
If you don't teach this to kids... no lock or bizzare loading drill will keep them from handling the gun in an unsafe manner..
I get the impression that most of you semi auto fans would be slaughtered if you came up against a man with a cap and ball revolver that was loaded. he would have time to thumb back 5 or six shots while you were still trying to find the key to the lock or figure out if you had a mag or... in lasers case.. loading an empty one... or using some kind of prosthetic to load the mag or push back the slide and then figure out which of them tiny little levers you had to move which way to make the damn thing.....
go bang.
lazs
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all my guns are loaded.. even if they are in the safe. My kimber sits by the coffemaker as I type. it has one in the chamber and the hammer at half. The mag is a wilson combat that has been loaded for months or years I really don't know.. It is full of hyroshoks so when I normally take the gun out to shoot I dump that mag and pick up one or two others with lead 230's in em. They are reloads regulated to shoot the same point of aim as the hyrasoks.
My revolvers all have full loads in em too. Some of my rifles aren't loaded but I am not sure which... It doesn't matter. I know the garand isn't loaded.. for obvious reasons.
lazs
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I've always kept at least one of my guns loaded at all times. Nothing more useless than an empty gun. Now that I'm divorced and living in an apartment, which really blows by the way, I always have my Remington 870 loaded with #4 Phesant loads with my 20" smooth bore slug barrel installed. It's short enough that I can manuver it through the apartment with no problems. I figure the #4 shells will do plenty of damage to an intruder at the close engagement ranges I'm looking at without over penetrating through the walls or ceiling into the other apartments if for some strange reason I missed. That is the only gun that I don't keep locked up in my gun cabinet. My shotgun sits propped up beside my bed, four in the mag, and five more ready to go in a shell holder on the stock. I don't keep one in the pipe because racking that slide to load the first one is noisey and can't be mistaken for anything else. That is the only warning anyone will get from me.
I also have my Kimber 1911A1 loaded with Hydroshocks since that is my main carry weapon, but if I'm home that wouldn't be my "go to" gun.
I'm a firm believer that the only thing better than a shotgun for home defense is a flame thrower, but those are illegal so..........
I also keep a couple of 30rd mags loaded for my M4A3, not that I'd ever pull that out in a home defense situation. I do however live right on the edge of the "hood" here, so just in case the natives ever get really out of control, I'll be ready.
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Originally posted by Xargos
Laser, have you had any firearm training, because it is very clear that you have not.
If you know the answer why ask the question?
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the XD45 has the loaded chamber indicator and it also has a pin that protudes slightly in the back if the weapon is cocked. This is handy if operating in low light conditions as you can tell by feel.
This pistol in 5 inch tactical also comes with a carrying case, trim holster with rail, a 2 clip holster with 2 rails, 2 13 rnd clips, and a speed loader.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
ah, cc. I know Wolf doesn't mix well with a lot of pistols. I emailed Clay Novak and asked if I should have my feed ramp polished. He said no, I was just considering it for I have had around 8k rounds shot through my USP 45. I am thinking about getting him to install night sights on it though.
I was thinking about that tritium to paint onto the sights of my pt99. They are very hard to see, even during the day time.
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http://chris.cc/tritium.htm
I have a tritium divers watch and I can't see it in the dark anymore. But it was wonderful for the first few years.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I don't think the current trend of people who don't shoot much getting the latest and greatest gadget filled semi auto is a good one.
I also think that any attempt to make the gun unable to fire in any way that is more cumbersome than thumbing back the hammer/pressing the trigger is insane. locks? you are kidding.. why not store it at a gun club? Children need to be trained to not touch guns until they are old enough to handle them safely.
If you don't teach this to kids... no lock or bizzare loading drill will keep them from handling the gun in an unsafe manner..
I get the impression that most of you semi auto fans would be slaughtered if you came up against a man with a cap and ball revolver that was loaded. he would have time to thumb back 5 or six shots while you were still trying to find the key to the lock or figure out if you had a mag or... in lasers case.. loading an empty one... or using some kind of prosthetic to load the mag or push back the slide and then figure out which of them tiny little levers you had to move which way to make the damn thing.....
go bang.
lazs
Good old lazs, still hanging on to his revolvers, leisure suits, and drawing water from a creek instead of using them danged newfangled "water faucets". :D
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the new fangled 1911 was designed in 1911.
operating steps to fire a double action revolver::
step one> pull trigger.
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My newfangled beretta, steps required to make it go bang -
Remove from holster
Pull trigger *BANG*
The only difference is that follow-on shots are single action and the gun should be de-cocked before putting it back away again. I figure that isn't much of a drawback since if I'm putting it back away, I'm either out of ammo or I'm not in a hurry anymore.
And reloading it is just as fast as a pro 6-gun shootist reloading with a speedloader... Simultaneously grab extra mag with left hand and push the button right under my right thumb. Empty mag falls out as I cram full mag back in. Depress lever just a hair above where my right thumb rests naturally to release the slide.
It's pretty fast and comes just as naturally as reloading a wheelgun.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I get the impression that most of you semi auto fans would be slaughtered if you came up against a man with a cap and ball revolver that was loaded. he would have time to thumb back 5 or six shots while you were still trying to find the key to the lock or figure out if you had a mag or... in lasers case.. loading an empty one... or using some kind of prosthetic to load the mag or push back the slide and then figure out which of them tiny little levers you had to move which way to make the damn thing.....
go bang.
lazs
I can unload 13 rounds from my USP 45 just as fast as 9 out of a 1911, center mass from 10 yards. I don't NEED a single shot first round, but with the HK that option is available to me. Most shots fired in a shooting scenario are from less than 7 feet Lazs.
Sometimes, it doesn't matter what you are carrying.
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My 1911 holds 14 rounds of 45ACP. I can **** the hammer about as fast as I can bring it to bear. I could carry it cocked and locked if I wanted. IF I had an ambidextrous safety, I might, but I doubt it. The slight risk of something pushing the safety off isn't worth it. If I want a double action first shot, there's always the Sig P-220. If 8 rounds of 45ACP won't get it done, there's a need for a rifle.
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I realize the USP is "inferior". I have a modified Browning action and can carry it c*cked and locked as well. I love it.
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Originally posted by john9001
the new fangled 1911 was designed in 1911.
operating steps to fire a double action revolver::
step one> pull trigger.
News flash - Operating steps to fire a double action semi-auto - one. Operating steps to fire a single action auto - one.
Another bulletin just in - all semi-autos are not 1911s. Not even close. :D
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(quote) News flash - Operating steps to fire a double action semi-auto - one. Operating steps to fire a single action auto - one. (unquote)
After a cartridge is chambered, right?
Don't have to pull or release a slide to chamber cartridges in revolver.
First, load the handgun (cartridges into magazine or cylinder).
Second, insert the magazine or close the cylinder.
Third, pull back or release the slide or pull the revolver trigger (**** if single action)
Fourth, pull the trigger for first pistol shot or second revolver shot.
Fifth, repeat as necessary for pistol and revolver.
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And revolvers dont need loading? They dont need the cylinder put in place?
Oh, I see, the bullets just magically appear there in line with the barrel. :rolleyes:
Lets see, load a semi-auto:
1) Insert Magazine with up to 14 rounds
2) Rack slide
3) Pull trigger against a light single action trigger pull, maybe 4 lbs.
or
Load a revolver:
1) Open the cylinder
2) load 6 rounds one at a time
3) Close cylinder
4) Pull trigger against 12 pound trigger pull.
yeah, that revolver is the way to go alright. :rolleyes:
Must be why all the military and virtually every law enforcement department in the world has moved to revolvers? Oh wait, it was semi-autos they all moved to. But heck, what do they know? :rofl
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Those pistol magazines are magically preloaded with 14 rounds, huh? Wow!
I much prefer semiautos. But all the bullets have to be loaded one by one in magazine or cylinder (even fast loaders).
And don't forget to take out the magazine to load it.
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Originally posted by Halo
Those pistol magazines are magically preloaded with 14 rounds, huh? Wow!
That is so weak it is laughable. Is that really the best you can do? :rofl :rofl :rofl
I think you would make more sense if you just accepted reality and admitted you are advancing a losing arguement.
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It's late and I'm going to bed. Go back and reconsider the steps. You really stacked the odds against revolvers.
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Originally posted by Halo
It's late and I'm going to bed. Go back and reconsider the steps. You really stacked the odds against revolvers.
No, advancing technology did, along with improved gun design. Despite the really poor arguements lazs trys to make, semi-autos are better in the large majority of situations. That is why sales of semi-autos now overwhelms revolvers, that is why many gun manufacturers (including Colt) have stopped even producing revolvers.
The arguement for revolvers is purely an emotional arguement based on subjective choice, not real world handgun realities and fact.
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Reasons I prefer a wheelgun:
- They don't jam.
- If I have a misfire all I have to do is squeeze the trigger again.
- I can fire it through the clothing in my pocket and not worry about the slide getting caught in the lining.
- It's easier to grab in a hurry because the handle is not up as tight against the skin as an auto.
- I always know what state of readiness it's in.
- It's not picky about what kind of ammo it's feed.
- The barrel doesn't move so it's a stabler shooting platform.
- Easier to clean then an auto.
- Easier to conceal because it's butt isn't as big as an autos.
- Doesn't throw brass everywhere.
- Not as many moving parts.
Most people buy semi-autos because they think they look cool. I bet over half the autos sold in the U.S. never have more then 200 rounds put through them.
Speed loaders are easy and fast to use.
SCDC still uses .357 and I doubt they will ever switch over.
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Originally posted by Xargos
Reasons I prefer a wheelgun:
- They don't jam.
- If I have a misfire all I have to do is squeeze the trigger again.
- I can fire it through the clothing in my pocket and not worry about the slide getting caught in the lining.
- It's easier to grab in a hurry because the handle is not up as tight against the skin as an auto.
- I always know what state of readiness it's in.
- It's not picky about what kind of ammo it's feed.
- The barrel doesn't move so it's a stabler shooting platform.
- Easier to clean then an auto.
- Easier to conceal because it's butt isn't as big as an autos.
- Doesn't throw brass everywhere.
- Not as many moving parts.
Most people buy semi-autos because they think they look cool. I bet over half the autos sold in the U.S. never have more then 200 rounds put through them.
Speed loaders are easy and fast to use.
SCDC still uses .357 and I doubt they will ever switch over. [/B]
Wrong on many issues.
It is widely accepted revolvers are worse for concealed carry because they are wider and bulkier.
They do jam, only someone who either isn't familiar with revolvers, or someone who won't admit the truth would ever say differant.
Who in the heck fires "through their pocket"? ONLY on TV
A holster makes a semi-auto plenty easy to grab in a hurry.
Revolvers have on average many more moving parts than a semi-auto, they really do. I posted that once before, showing the part count for both.
Slides move on semi-autos, the barrel is secured to the frame.
Anyone worth a dang with his handgun knows if it is ready to fire. Anyone lacking the ability to remember has no business handling a pistol.
Yeah, ya got me on the cleaning thing, it takes me thirty seconds to field strip a semi, but then I can clean the barrel from the chamber end, not the muzzle end, so I don't screw up the accuracy as cleaning from the muzzle will do.
And yeah, it throws it's brass out, and out of the way, I dont have to spend time clearing it out myself later. For a tactical use, this is an advantage, prevents wasted time on a reload, I am sure one of the many advantages the military and law enforcement agency appreciated when they switched to semi-autos.
And BTW, the overwhelming majority of competitive shooters in practical, combat, and target shooting use semi-autos. (as do the winners in the matches)
I suspect most people buy semi-autos because the overwhelming advantages make it a better weapon for all they want the handgun for.
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I've only had a wheelgun jam on me once when I was re-qualifying because I got stuck with a worn out .357. I've carried both autos and wheelguns concealed and my S&W does not poke out nearly as far. Many times I'll put my gun in my pocket and I will shoot through it if I have to. I've noticed that many people who carry autos do not keep one in the chamber and you may not have enough time to rack it in a bad situation. I feel safer with my revolver because that is the weapon I have had the most training with because that is what I had to use on my job.
Autos are for people who don't mind spending time training and if your really into guns they might be better for you. But if you don't spend much time with guns you maybe better off with a revolver because they are simpler to use.
P.S. You are right about the parts, I should not have put that in the list. I'm not a gunsmith nor do I pretend to be, so on this subject please correct me on future stupid commits I make.:D
P.P.S. I have always been more into making the bullets, in-fact I have lead poisoning from casting my own over the years.
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dago.. you are not reading the thread. Every one of the gee whiz semi auto guys here keeps their guns in a different state of readiness..
This isn't the police of the military or your gun club or semi auto bb.
Steps to fire someones semi auto who is here (real life)... well... who knows? about one to 5 and then.. only if you can figure out how to dump the mag or rack the slide or work the safeties or....
I keep the Kimber with one in the chamber and the hammer at half... I know that.. It is my gun. I can thumb it back while I grab it no problem. some guys here have to load their unloaded mags... then get a friend to rack back the slide...
I can tell if any of your revolvers are ready to go by looking at it.. you can see the brass at the recoil shield on modern revolvers (they quit countersinking the case rims in the 50's to save money) unless it is full of spent rounds it is good to go if you see brass. press back the trigger or thumb back the hammer and press the trigger.. those are your options.
no safeties or mags to worry about. speedloaders load all six or five or 7 at once. In the field I load 2 rounds at a time... I can unload and load 6 a lot faster than the semi auto guys can dump a mag and load it and then put it back in the gun and then rack the slide to get the damn thing to actually be ready to fire.
for all around.. unless you are into a very narrow interest in guns... wheelguns rule... you can shoot far more powerful rounds and you can shoot a variety of loads of the same caliber in the same gun...
If you reload... the revolver is king... unless you like to spend half your time looking around for brass that the self shucker threw all over the place.
I like handguns.. I realize and hope that if I need to use it socialy that 7 feet will be the distance. I have a 340 pd in 357 that weighs 12 oz and fits in my front pocket... no semi auto comes close to this and with 5 rounds of 125 federals... it is all that should be needed. No guessing at how to fire the thing. No guessing if it is not only loaded but ready to fire.
For a very narrow range of uses the semi auto is the best thing you can get. but... as masher says.. at 7 feet and in a fight... anything you can get a shot off quickly with will do. If you have to fumble around with an unfamiliar semi auto.. you are dead.
If you go out plinking at distance with a guy who has a magnum revolver.. you will be humiliated... If you reload your own ammo you will be limited and frustrated... and if you are not total slob.. half your shooting time will be spent looking for all the brass your self shucker through all over the countryside.
I like semi autos.. I trust my kimber.. it is a fine gun and accurate if a little puny in the power thing... it operates in a very narrow range tho for all the fun things I like to do with handguns.
Both semi autos and revolvers are more than a hundred years old in design... new semi autos and new revolvers are being designed and sold every year.
If I could only have one type for everything... it would be the wheel gun hands down.. there is no other real choice.
If all I ever shot was plates... and winning meant shooting em as many times and as fast as possible... I would have a semi auto.
If I carried a battle rifle at all times and used a pistol as a last ditch only defensive weapon in severe weather and terrain conditions... I might go with a semi auto.
for the real world tho.. I don't want to be limited as badly as semi autos limit a persons shooting.
lazs
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This is REALLY funny. A bunch of pompous goobers measuring their pee-pee length by the type of action of their favorite firearm. And looking incredibly stupid in the process. :rofl
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Lazs, you and I have had this discussion over and over. It really gets to be a subjective choice.
Maybe you can shoot a revolver faster, my Colt Commander (the first of the handgun I bought when I was 16 and still one of my favorites) fires at the rate of 5 rounds per second, fast enough for me. Maybe you can reload faster, but you will be reloading after 6 rounds, my Sig holds 12 rounds, so while you are reloading, I am still shooting. I perfer to be able to shoot, rather than standing around swinging open a cylinder, dumping brass, pushing new rounds in, and closing a cylinder.
You think a .45 isn't strong enough? It is plenty for everything I would need a handgun for.
I don't need to shoot a "magnum", I have shot them, normally excessive recoil and noise is the most noticable factor. The few people I have known that fixate on having a "magnum" have without exception been those who are trying to compensate for some inferiority issue. A variation on the small man syndrome.
Sorry you have trouble figuring out how to shoot autos as you mentioned, I find they work pretty similar, and the overwhelming majority drop a mag the same way, load the same way, and rack a slide the same way. Pretty sure I could do it with the overwhelming majority without any training. Even my Luger is pretty darn easy to work.
I don't care what someone prefers. I do get bugged when the revolver lovers feel they just have to come on this board and tell outright lies to try to make semi-autos look bad, or revolvers look good.
(like "inaccurate, revolvers never jam, too many moving parts, hard to conceal etc etc).
Why do you guys get so desperate to defend your revolvers you need to do that?
Try to see if I have told a lie about semi-autos or revolvers.
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My dad keeps one chamber of his revolver empty so he doesnt shoot his foot off incase he drops it.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
This is REALLY funny. A bunch of pompous goobers measuring their pee-pee length by the type of action of their favorite firearm. And looking incredibly stupid in the process. :rofl
Yea, I guess your right Capt. I'll never switch back to autos anyway.
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Not to derail you guys, but...
I'd like to know, If the Poly-Frame Semi-Auto's wear out the frame to slide areas quicker. If you wear them out, what is the fix??? A new frame? Is there some other way of fixing them than that? How many rounds can go through a Poly gun before wear is a problem?
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Not to derail you guys, but...
I'd like to know, If the Poly-Frame Semi-Auto's wear out the frame to slide areas quicker. If you wear them out, what is the fix??? A new frame? Is there some other way of fixing them than that? How many rounds can go through a Poly gun before wear is a problem?
in the new S&W M&P the slide rides on metal blocks on the frame and they are replaceable. I do not know about other poly framed guns.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Not to derail you guys, but...
I'd like to know, If the Poly-Frame Semi-Auto's wear out the frame to slide areas quicker. If you wear them out, what is the fix??? A new frame? Is there some other way of fixing them than that? How many rounds can go through a Poly gun before wear is a problem?
There is something just wrong with plastic guns to me. I think the glock is the ugliest gun ever made. It might be a nice gun, shoot well etc, but that kind of ugly would prevent me from owning one. If given one, I would sell it.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Not to derail you guys, but...
I'd like to know, If the Poly-Frame Semi-Auto's wear out the frame to slide areas quicker. If you wear them out, what is the fix??? A new frame? Is there some other way of fixing them than that? How many rounds can go through a Poly gun before wear is a problem?
I have fired a Glock17 with over 100,000 rounds through it with all original parts. Wasn't mine, but it was still running with no problems.
Most of the Glock's wear points are metal on metal. The Glock's rail is metal so the poly doesn't directly wear where it meets the slide. I have heard of the metal rail parts failing on some Glock22/23s, but Glock has said they will replace those frames at no cost. Turned out a metal bending machine was putting a square bend to the rail rather than a rounded bend.
Terror
PS Edit for spelling...
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I don't care for Glocks, but for me the Springfield XD .45 ACP got everything right.
The XD supposedly has many of the best features of designs such as Glock, SIG, and 1911. Chuck Taylor calls it "the first true 21st century pistol." The XD has been chosen Handgun of the Year by both the American Rifleman magazine and The Shooting Industry Academy of Excellence.
The XD is certainly worth a look-see by every shooter.
This thread made me realize I have a fairly unique way of cocking the XD and other pistols, which was vital to learn in spite of all the usual wuss wisecracks.
While I value experience as much as anyone, it's always helpful to remember the circus maxim "You're only as good as your last performance," and also the consolation and encouragement "The only shot that counts is the next one."
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Originally posted by Dago
There is something just wrong with plastic guns to me. I think the glock is the ugliest gun ever made. It might be a nice gun, shoot well etc, but that kind of ugly would prevent me from owning one. If given one, I would sell it.
Making a gun decision on pure looks is just foreign to me. Seems someone would make judgements on a firearms capabilities and then *maybe" looks rather than looks then capabilities. I would rather have a firearm that is ugly and extremely reliable than one that looks beautiful but jams every 500 rounds (or even every 1000 rounds).
Not saying that a pretty gun won't shoot well, but why say "No" to a good shooting gun just because it's ugly? Makes no sense....
Terror
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Halo, Regardless of what anyone said, you where better off asking, then not and getting hurt or killed. I grew up with firearms, was shooting in the woods with my .22 alone before I was 10, and it took proper training to get me out of allot of bad habits.
P.S. I have respect for you for asking, even though I was not able to help.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
My dad keeps one chamber of his revolver empty so he doesnt shoot his foot off incase he drops it.
This was not uncommon. Some revolvers had a "fixed" firing pin on the hammer. The actual firing pin is an integral part of the hammer. If this type of firearm is dropped on it's hammer, it had a good chance of discharging the round sitting under the uncocked hammer.
Most modern revolvers do not use this design anymore.
Terror
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dago... you are funny.. you talk about how modern you are until... they bring up polymer frame semi autos and then you go right back to horse and buggy days and curse the "newfangled" polymer owners... for no reason.
the reasons you gave for me liking wheelguns were not the ones I gave.
For all around usefulness in a handgun.. revolvers are still the way to go... for guys new to handguns or those who want one for the home and don't want to constantly practice with it.. the revolver is best for them.
for hitting plates at short range and for getting a lot of lead in the air without reloading.. the semi auto is best. As a last ditch defensive weapon for untrained military personel who will be carrying a battle rifle too... the semi auto is probly best.
the recoil of magnums is not severe.. it can also be tamed with reloads. The magnum is a very versitile handgun round in a revolver..
I own both revolvers and semi autos.. I enjoy both and I reload... I shoot both and am fully aware of the limitations of both. the limitations of semi autos are just a lot worse once you step out of the narrow confines of what they are good for.
If I only could have one action type I would not choose the self shucker because of those limitations.
oh... and I am no doubt taller than you so it is most likely you who are compensating by using the gun most popular in movies and such.
lazs
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Lazs, what brand of powders do you prefer?
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oh.. an off duty woman sheriff in sac here yesterday came home and was attacked by a man in her bedroom... she had a backup revolver... probly a j frame smith or such and shot the guy twice in the head...
he died. she didn't.
almost any handgun would have worked in this situation but she was struggling with the guy.. the simplicity of a small revolver at close range one handed is pretty nice. I don't think she though much about sights or safeties or proper grip or stance or even trigger finger placement... she probly wasn't thinking about recovery for a second shot... she just yanked back on the trigger when the gun was pointed at his head..... twice.
lazs
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A friend back in the '80s had this guy come up to him and put a gun in his face demanding his money. So he reached into his coat pocket acting like he was getting his wallet, but in fact emptied his .38 into the robbers chest instead. The robber never saw the gun.
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Originally posted by lazs2
dago... you are funny.. you talk about how modern you are until... they bring up polymer frame semi autos and then you go right back to horse and buggy days and curse the "newfangled" polymer owners... for no reason.
the reasons you gave for me liking wheelguns were not the ones I gave.
For all around usefulness in a handgun.. revolvers are still the way to go... for guys new to handguns or those who want one for the home and don't want to constantly practice with it.. the revolver is best for them.
for hitting plates at short range and for getting a lot of lead in the air without reloading.. the semi auto is best. As a last ditch defensive weapon for untrained military personel who will be carrying a battle rifle too... the semi auto is probly best.
the recoil of magnums is not severe.. it can also be tamed with reloads. The magnum is a very versitile handgun round in a revolver..
I own both revolvers and semi autos.. I enjoy both and I reload... I shoot both and am fully aware of the limitations of both. the limitations of semi autos are just a lot worse once you step out of the narrow confines of what they are good for.
If I only could have one action type I would not choose the self shucker because of those limitations.
oh... and I am no doubt taller than you so it is most likely you who are compensating by using the gun most popular in movies and such.
lazs
lazs, you are a funny guy yourself. Statements you have made in relation to firearms would keep real experts in stitches for hours.
You refuse to accept the opinions of documented lifetime experts who have 100x the experience you have, because you "reload".
Now, after you tell me the magnum makes you tall, you have to reload down to handle the recoil?
I have never claimied to be "modern", I have claimed the semi-auto is a later design more advanced gun. That is true enough Not sure how or where you misconstrued that idea.
Yeah, the semi is only good for untrained military, as you just stated, sure. But, oh wait, all the special ops devils, all service special operators are using the semi-auto. Are they all "untrained"?? Are you more trained and experienced than they are? Have you been in more firefights, attended more structured training programs?
You speak of the limitations of semi-autos. Yeah, they are limited, I have only heard of them being used for self defense, hunting, military use in combat, high level competitive combat and target shooting like Camp Perry, law enforcement primary weapon, and fun plinking. I guess the revolver would be the choice for everything else. :rolleyes:
And while I am at it, you often talk about how you only need two shots in a live gunfight and don't need a high cap magazine. This begs the question, just so we are understanding your bona fides in making that statement, how many live gun fights have you been in? You know, ones where someone was nearby actually shooting a firearm at you with the intent to kill you? Must be several for you to speak with such conviction about your cool and composed response to such a dangerous high stress situation. I would be interested to hear about your experiences so I can learn.
(none for me I am happy to say, but I have been in sight of a couple back where I grew up, otherwise, my experience being shot at is limited to dart guns, bb guns and paintball guns)
BTW, do you have a CCW? I have one, but never bother to carry a pistol, I got in in case the need ever seemed to arise, but never has, I live in a much better community than I did where I grew up.
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dago dago dago... I never said that I had to load magnums down or even up for that matter... I said that I had the choice... I have at least two loads I like for almost every gun I own.
You claim that semi autos are best for hunting and long range shooting? Plinking? Reloading? those are important things for most hobby handgunners.
I don't see your point? you like to pick up brass? you like to be humiliated or frustrated with your 45 at long range?
now.. the old gunfight thing... civilians are not military. They don't face military situations. Marshal puts together a pretty comprehensive database on gunfights on the street. It is a fact that one round well placed it the ticket. The fights last a very short time in almost every case and only a very few rounds are fired.
I have been shot at once. I would say that it was not a very typical situation. I have seen two fights that ended in shooting. one in a serious wound... that one involved a lever action rifle that did not come into play and a 38 revolver that did.. the one where no one was hurt involved a browning high power and a 1911. I would say that in all 8 shots were fired in the latter. one in 38 incident and one by me in the one I was in. I didn't hit anything and didn't expect to. It was about 30 yards and all I wanted to do was show that I could shoot back.
I am not a particularly brave man but I am pragmatic and sensible... I was very frightened afterwards in two of the cases.
This is very limited experiance and I can't imagine the exact same things ever happening again.
I claim no expertese in this.. I can only say that it sure seemed to me that the type of gun was not very important so long as everyone had handguns. the 38 incident did have some things in common in what I think would be typical tho... there was a struggle. It was arms length when the shot was fired. I think that a revolver is best in that. I have always thought about that and a j frame shrouded smith or similar always sticks in my mind as being a great gun for that.
The one I was shot at made me realize that a man 30 yards or so away running and shooting was not much of a danger to me no matter how many rounds he had.
Now, they come in 12 oz packages and in .357... I own one now.
Read marshals "street stoppers" it is simply a good compilation of gunfights and types of guns used in real gunfights on the street. not the military or police where choice is dictated by agency and policy but real life.
I seen someone double action a smith model 59 at someone else about 4 times on an empty chamber once too.
I have seen too many semi autos jam.. I can't spend a day at the range without seeing it. My Kimber is very reliable tho. so is my makarov... cz... not so much.
I would say that some of the "experts" are not as expert as you say... even clint from thunder ranch has been using (and put his name on) a 44 special revolver.
One heck of a lot more gunfights have been finished on the street with revolvers than semi autos. what they did then and are doing now.. they will continue to do.
Reloading is just another level of the handgun experiance.
You are someone who reads about guns from people who write about guns... you don't reload and you would sell a polymer gun without even trying it. because.. well.. who knows?
So why should I listen to you? I can read the same people. I don't need your interpretation of what they say.. I can see you have trouble in that department in any case.
I have all types of handguns. I reload for em and use em for a variety of things.
I freely admit that if I were in the military that I would narrow down my choices. More likely tho.. they would be narrowed down for me. Same for police.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
You claim that semi autos are best for hunting and long range shooting? Plinking? Reloading? those are important things for most hobby handgunners.
[/unquote]
Did I? Or are you having as much trouble understanding what I say as you are the capabilities of the semi-auto? Maybe you should try reading again.
I don't see your point? you like to pick up brass? you like to be humiliated or frustrated with your 45 at long range? [/unquote]
We have been through this before, you really need to work on your memorization skills. Long range shooting is done with a rifle. Right tool for the job and all. Anyone who desires to shoot handguns long range buys a Thompson Center Contender. Right tool for the job and all.
now.. the old gunfight thing... civilians are not military. They don't face military situations. Marshal puts together a pretty comprehensive database on gunfights on the street. It is a fact that one round well placed it the ticket. The fights last a very short time in almost every case and only a very few rounds are fired. [/unquote]
You didn't really say anything there, is would be obvious that one well placed round is the way to go, but you ignore the reality that in the excitement and stress of an actual gunfight, nobody just calming stands there and takes time to carefully place one round. Nobody. Only on TV and in the movies, where I am afraid you are getting too much of your experience and basing your judgements on.
You are someone who reads about guns from people who write about guns... you don't reload and you would sell a polymer gun without even trying it. because.. well.. who knows?
So why should I listen to you? I can read the same people. I don't need your interpretation of what they say.. I can see you have trouble in that department in any case.
lazs
Read? I offered to put you in touch with Elmer Balance when we were debating the M1 Garand -vs- the M1A, and you refused. You decided you knew more than Elmer. You insulted his knowledge. Elmer is the most experienced expert in the world on both those weapons. He doesn't write about them, but if you email or better call him, he can tell you in great detail everything about them. He was the go to guy in the US Army for years. He was a competitive shooter on the Army Marksman Team, he was their armorer. He has fired tens of thousands of rounds through both. He was the guy who accurized them, set them both up for national match level competition. This man single handed developed the M1A from the M14 and secured BATF writting authorization to build a semi-auto version. The FIRST GUY TO DO THAT. Do a little research on Springfield Armory when it was in Devine Texas.
From Wikipedia
The M1A rifle is manufactured by Springfield Armory [1] of Geneseo Illinois. This is not the same U.S. Government owned Springfield Armory, Inc. of Massachusetts, which was closed down in 1968 by the U.S. Department of Defense. The term "M1A" is a proprietary title given by Elmer C. Balance who started the privately owned Springfield Armory, Inc. of Devine, Texas, to his M-14 pattern rifle. The receiver is made from investment cast 8620 alloy steel. Early M1A's were built with surplus G.I. parts until Springfield Armory began manufacturing their own. Elmer sold the "Springfield Armory' to the now current owners.
This man is the expert. He knows more about both the M1 Garand and M1A than you will ever know about your own hand. Yet , you basically slammed him and indicated you knew better.
I am past feeling sorry for you and your delusions. I now feel sorry for anyone foolish enough to listen to you pretend you are an expert on firearms. Sadly, I have seen too many self-appointed experts in my life. Aviation, my career field is full of them, and so is the gun world.
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I may be repeating some things here but in answer to the orginal post:
1. No I never have any problems chambering the first rounds into my semi-auto... Fired many thousands of rounds from my Glock 22 (40 cal) without problems..
My guess would be if you are consistantly having this problem with multiple magazines it is simply "user error".
Ensure you pull the slide back all the way and let it move forward on its own. Alot of feed problems of this nature are caused by the operator either failing to pull back all the way or "guiding" the slide back with your hand on the slide, not allowing it to fully chamber your round.
And as a side note it IS recommended if you keep your spare magazines loaded you rotate your loaded mags.. ie if you like having 3 mags fully loaded at all times you should have 6 spare mags and rotate which ones you keep loaded.
If you continue to have feed problems I suggest taking your gun and magazines to a gunsmith to ensure they are functioning properly... but my educated duess would be the above suggestion should solve your problems..
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where to begin... long range shooting and picking up brass...
You say that long range shooting is best done with a rifle.. of course.. all shooting is best done with a rifle.. what is your point? if you are out plinking and don't have a rifle... do you go sit in the car and hug your 45 while the rest of us are out having fun with the challenge of hitting a rock or bucket at 400 yards with a handgun? Oh wait... don't go off and sulk just yet... be sure to clean up all the brass you threw all over the countryside with your semi auto before you go.
you will lose options and you will have to pick up your brass and if you reload the brass won't last as long and you will have to load within narrow confines.
ought six versus .308... you claimed the 308 was more powerful... anything you said after that about the rifles that shoot em was not worth listening to. You claim I made fun of your expert... I did not. I admitted that gunsmiths are concentrating on the fake m14's and doing a really good job on accuracy.. I also claimed that the gas system in the garand was inherently more accurate. I don't think your expert would disagree.. In fact.. if you could make one of the fake m14's so that it took it's gas for the piston from farther up the barrel then it would get more accurate..
I did not say anything about your expert like what you claim.
I have told you to read about real gunfights. winners do indeed take their time and shoot when others are shooting at them. Often.. the winner is not even aware of the bullets around him.
A rifle is best.. If you have to have a handgun only tho... it might as well be a powerful revolver because they are just a lot more versitile and fun. There is less to think about and they are safer for the average person.
With a semi auto your choices for safe carry are.... a state of readiness that is far from ready... unloaded pretty much.. or... a horrible trigger pull for the first round and a semi horrible one for the next ones or... ready to fire and depending on some form of safety device and levers and wheels... or...
a very light trigger pull for every round with about a quarter inch or more of travel.. people accidentally discharge these glock like systems all the time.
A revolver is good for the person who just needs a handgun for home defense or carry.. it is reliable and simple. It has plenty of ammo load for any situation a civilian is likely to encounter. It is safe to carry in a ready to go condition. If you step things up a notch and enjoy firearms... the revolver allows you to enjoy all kinds of variety. It is more powerful and it is easy to learn reloading ammo for.
If you are a cop or a military man and are issued a weapon as a last ditch defensive weapon... the semi auto may be best with some handling training... If you play some kind of gun game where shooting paper people or plates as fast as you can with as many rounds as you can... you will be hard pressed to do better than a semi auto.
lazs
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Do you ever stop lieing to support your prejudices?
Elmer Balance stated without reservation the M14 gas system was superior to the M1 Garand. Two reasons, one, the shorter Op Rod on the M14 was not subject to the harmonics and bending the M1 Garand Op Rod was. Two, having the gas cylinder near the end of the barrel caused a disturbance to the bullet just as it was to exit the barrel. Haven't you wondered even for a minute why it was moved forward on the upgraded version of the rifle the M14? So, no, despite your single opinion that the M1 Garand gas system placement is better, you are wrong, and all expert I have heard weigh in on this agree to that.
I didn't say the .308 was more powerful, but don't let that stop you from again bringing more lies to the debate, it seems to be your only tool. I said it was considered more accurate. You only countered with bullet drop charts.
Tell me lazs, why do the overwhelming majority of sniper rifles today shoot the .308, (the only other cartridge used is the .50) if the 06 is such a great and accurate round? Surely it isn't because the militaries of the world can't afford it. They spend millions on sniper equipment and rounds, yet they ignore the 30-06 for a lesser round? Yeah right.
Why isn't your beloved M1 Garand and 30-06 making a big impact at rifle competitions? Virtually unseen anymore at national level competitions? What do those uneducated not know? Surely, they would know the superiority if only they reloaded. :rofl
It's funny you stand so alone one all your stances, so few agree with you in the real world of shooting.
And, btw, I don't believe you were ever in a gunfight, your repeated claims about taking your time and shooting accurate engaged to the contrary.,
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now i don't know if the 308 is better than the 30-06 but i do know why the M14 used the 308 which is the 7.62 NATO round. This was done to standardize the NATO ammo to one caliber 308/7.62 for resupply purposes.
As i have said before i have used both the M-1 and the M-14 in the service and for practical battle field purposes both rifles have the same accuracy, example i have fired 10 bullseyes out of 10 shots at 500 yds with iron sights with both rifles, those were standard issue rifles and mil issue ammo, if you need more accuracy than that your just being fussy.
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Why the hell are you two even bothering with this discussion. Wheel guns vs autos??? Who cares? Shoot what works for you and stop trying to convert the rest of the world to your preferance in handguns.
I own several of each. I enjoy shooting them all. Around town I carry an auto if I carry at all. Either my .45 or my 9mm. Why??? Because if I ever need it I just FEEL more secure with the added firepower an auto gives me. 30 rds with my 9mm in two mags or 12rds with a wheel gun. I'd rather have the 30 rds and not need them then punch out 12 and then realize I need more. I don't want to go out with a half dozen speed loaders for a wheel gun hanging off my belt.
Now if I'm out camping or hiking I tend to carry my .357 Magnum with a spare speed loader. That's a better round for dealing with wild animals if I run across one, but I always keep the first round in the chamber loaded with snake shot with a couple extra shot shells in my pocket.
Again though, it's all personal preferance. I can hit whatever I aim at with either type of gun, but what I choose to use depends on what I'm doing. I don't believe there is one gun that will work for every situation, that's why I own many guns. I can choose the right gun for the right situation and I'm good to go.
Lazs, Dago, you guys are killing me with your posts though.:rofl :rofl
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I agree to each his own, and I mentioned it in an earlier post.
I just find it irritating that lazs feels the need to come in here, pretend to be an expert, then lie about semi's to try and make the revolver look superior.
If he instead told the truth, it might be a lot differant.
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I see the pee-pee measuring contest is till running at full tilt. How amusing.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I see the pee-pee measuring contest is till running at full tilt. How amusing.
I see old cliche stupid posts are still going too.
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Go back to playing with your tape measure.
And yes, the M1 Garand IS an important rifle in MAJOR matches, by the way. Drop by Oak Ridge Tennessee, and try a 1000 yard Garand match.
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You guys really will argue about anything.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Go back to playing with your tape measure.
And yes, the M1 Garand IS an important rifle in MAJOR matches, by the way. Drop by Oak Ridge Tennessee, and try a 1000 yard Garand match.
Sure, it's important in a Garand Match, duh, but open matchs you won't find many Garands, and M1As are getting rare too now.
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Took the XD out to a Virginia farm today for first outdoor plinking and carrying on a short hike in mountain woods that have black bear, coyotes, and stray dogs.
My son-in-law, traditionally a revolver guy, a skilled outdoorsman who has hunted, hiked, and camped in the Rockies and Appalachians, loved the XD .45 ACP and said now he knows what he wants for Christmas. Said he was surprised how fast and accurate it was. We shot stationary skeet at seven to 20 yards using the usual 230-grain FMJ.
The XD was pleasant on the hike too, less than three pounds with two loaded magazines of 10 rounds each (could have carried 13 rounds each).
Nope, never saw any critters. But sure felt safer having the XD along in the woods.
After dark, tried the Glock laser/light. Impressive. Laser carried a good 30 yards as did the light, although the light was not very bright at that distance. Adds a welcome new dimension to night shooting/defense.
However, it definitely is a lot harder finding spent shell casings than with a revolver. :D
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heheh, i only collect spend shell casings at a range as a courtesy to those who will be shooting next. In the woods, I just grind them into the dirt to decay. Some day they will return to the earth. :D
I have heard a lot of very positive comments on the XD.
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There is no reason to be arguing over these things. The problem set out by the thread was solved within 7 posts. Why are you arguing when you need to realize that nothing will change between the group of you?
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Hell.. I have said over and over shoot what you want.. dago is the one who keeps going on about wheel guns being antiques and worthless..
I own both. I shoot both and know the limitations of both. dago won't even own a modern gun because it has polymer in it. He won't reload and he won't use a handgun outside of a very narrow range.
Use what you are comfortable with. Use what you are good with... If you think you are going to get into a situation where 30 rounds of handgun ammo will save the day and 5 or 10 or 12 won't... and.. you can't have a rifle... for sure don't risk your life on a wheelgun!
If you plink... shoot for fun and reload... you might find that a handgun that revolves is a lot more useful than one that doesn't.
If I was shooting at clays from 7 to 20 yards it wouldn't make a bit of difference what gun I was shooting... the kimber would work well... so would any of my 44 mags. I would probly have both in my bag for people to shoot.
dago.. I seen the brass slobs like you leave to "go back to nature" you and your ilk have probly closed more public land shooting spots than any other cause. drive up and see nothing but a carpet of the stuff.
And.. you most certainly did say that the .308 was more powerful or.. at least equal... I had to post the manufactures own ballistic charts to prove the .308 was a weaker round.
Shoot what you want. use what you are most comfortable with or.. get comfortable with several styles. But most important... get real familiar with any gun you use to defend yourself or others... know how to operate it and keep it in some form of readiness that makes sense and that won't have you fumbling around with the damn thing.
I admit my interests were honed by the likes of Kieth and Skeeter Skelton and Jordon and powerful revolvers and reloads and shooting at game and plinking at long range. The big, fast, heavy bullets would kick up dust you could see at 200 yards or more. The semi autos at the time didn't even have enough front sight to shoot that far. Have any of you ever shot a .45 acp at something 400 yards away?
Out in the field we became disenchanted with the self shuckers... they threw away expensive (yet fragile) brass and they had crappy sights and were weak calibers.
The guns have gotten a whole lot better along with the sights but the semi autos still have weak calibers (mostly, and in the context of this thread) and they still waste brass and are limited in bullet shape and power.
When I go plinking these days.. I take a semi auto and a revolver. most likely several of both. Some semi autos are not worth plinking with tho.. triggers and sights so bad that they are no fun. Others are a joy to shoot. Still have to pick up brass tho.
lazs
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Note to people in this thread.
Pistols are very simple technology. You don't need years of experience and thousands of hours of use to understand them completely. If you are a technically inclined person you will know exactly how they work and they best ways to use and maintain them with relatively little instruction.
If a guy says " I have thousands of hours of experience" I say so what? It is not like flying a plane where you need hours to experience different situations that come up maybe once or twice every 1000 hours.
If you need to fire a bunch of rounds and will have time to get your gun ready a semi auto is the best weapon for the job. A lot can go wrong with a gun with a slide that is not well maintained.
If you need to fire one or two rounds and need to get your gun in the dark or in your pocket and have little time to get it ready a revolver is the best gun. Not much can go wrong when you need to fire one round from a revolver even if it was not well maintained. As long as the hammer strikes the casing it will probably fire.
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That is a pretty fair statement habu.
If you think of a handgun as nothing more than a short range defensive weapon. They can be more than that tho and be a lot of fun.
If a person has a lot of hours with a particular gun he will probly know how to use it.. he won't have to think about it much.. that is an advantage. semi autos are more complex in their operation... Not in parts butr...there are more options between a completely empty gun and one that goes bang when the trigger is pressed. lots of things that can keep it from going bang that are just states of readiness.
That is great if you are aware of em and know em well and always keep the gun in one particular state of readiness.
If you use the thing for all kinds of reasons besides short range defense.. you probly want the versitility of a revolver or... better yet... several types of handguns.
lazs