Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunslinger on April 05, 2007, 10:35:18 PM
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I've owned my home for a year now (it's 6 years old) and I've never been happy with the water pressure. The neighbors say theirs is fine but with mine it seems you can't run two sinks at once or it just drizzles out. Even the showers with nothing else running it seems like the water just falls out the spout.
I've looked through out the house and there is no internal regulator or anything and the inspector said when I bought the house that the pressure was "within limits" Either way I cannot water my lawn and take a shower or do laundry at the same time.
Out towards the curb there is the meter, the shut off valve, and what looks to be a regulator of some sorts (just a flat head type valve) that is maxed in one direction and doesn't seem to do anything in the other.
I was wondering if this seems an issue for a plumber or should I call the water company?
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Gunslinger, it sounds like your water pipes may be too small. Either that or a restriction some where. You would have initial water pressure, but then not sufficient volume to maintain it. Also could be a tree root groing into the supply line from the meter. Or your neighbor could have tunneled under ground and tapped into your water line and is stealing it from you.
:noid
NOT
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Not, I think the smaller the pipe the high the water pressure? I'm not a plumber just thinking out loud.
Gun, my rule is I always pick the thing thats cheapest or least expensive to do first. I'd call the water company and see what they say. Is the meter running even when all the water is shut off? You might have a hole or break in the water line somewhere... a few months after I moved in our house I noticed water pressure would drop but only when I turned on the shower after a few days I noticed that the floor was wet by the shower, we just assumed water was splashing out on the floor (carpet) a few more days and there was alot more water. Called the maintenance guys cause the house was still under warrenty, turned out there was a hole in the water pipes up to the shower head and it was leaking inside the wall.
anything weird on your water bill? any unexplained increase in gallons?
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Guns 2 things come to mind.
1) The main cutoff valve is not open fully. It would be out by the water meter unless there is a 2nd cutoff somewhere between the house and meter.
2) Your house is Energy Star compliant. There may be a restrictor in your line to cut down on useage. That also would be next to the cutoff. This would be the hardest to detect unless you have something in your paperwork stating it has one or it is an Energy Star compliant home. Energy Star is huge in new construction and some areas require it.
You might call the city and have them come check your pressure just to be sure it's not a problem on their end. Be advised, if you have a leak between your meter and house, you have to pay them to get it fixed, if they will work on it at all. It would be pretty obvious if you had a leak big enough to drop the pressure.
If you were on a well I could tell you how to jack up the psi.
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We always had very high water pressure, which I naively attributed to being on high ground, until a plumber said one day, "Your water pressure is too high. I better lower it."
Something like that. I forget the details. It came up during a front outside faucet replacement. The lowered water pressure is more pleasant.
Your problem could be something as simple as the water company or plumber turning up the pressure. Hope so. Good luck.
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Water pressure is easy to lower (add a restrictor), but hard to raise.
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Usually after the meter its the responsibilty of the home-owner.
Look around the piping. Chances are if your supply lines are copper, someone put a galvanized nipple in the line somewhere, which after time can close off to the size of a pin. Replace it with a section of copper. There may be more than just one.
If your lines are galvanized thru-out (older houses) they may have become restricted. But before going further I'd call a plumber and have him check out the pressure reducing valve.
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in plumbing, smaller pipes=less pressure. for more pressure you want larger pipes for supply, with pressure being created at the distribution point by the reduction in size of shower heads, faucets, spray nozzles, etc..
NOT
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Check all of your shutoff valves that come into the house and make sure they are facing the right direction. There is a little arrow on them that points in the direction of flow. If your nieghbors water pressure is good but yours is pitiful, you have a problem somehwere and bit of logical troubleshooting will turn it up. For example. is it both hot and cold or just cold? Soon after your water comes into the house, it splits into hot and cold. If its both, then you just eliminated your entire house and you have to look at the main valve coming into the house, or the one on the meter. (valves do go bad!).
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The pressure in the system will be the same everywhere in a system when all water is shut off. From the meter to the furthest valve, it will be exactly the same. When a valve is opened water starts flowing; friction through valves, pipe walls and odd obstructions reduces pressure and flow. The instant the valve is opened, however, the water will surge at full pressure for a split second because the water at the valve was at full pressure.
Try this: Turn off all running water. Turn on one faucet suddenly and look for that surge; make sure that the faucet you chose has a handle that you can crank open in an instant. A twisty bathroom faucet probably won’t work well to see this. Also, make sure that the faucet you chose does not have a gay energy star pressure reducer built in. An outside faucet with a hose and hand squirter nozzle will work well. If you do not see much of a surge, your pressure is low. If you see a healthy surge at the beginning for an instant and then the flow goes back to its normal low flow, something in the system is significantly creating friction and dropping pressure. The possibilities mentioned in the above posts all sound viable.
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You don’t live at a significantly higher elevation than your neighbors, do you?
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"what looks to be a regulator of some sorts (just a flat head type valve) that is maxed in one direction and doesn't seem to do anything in the other"
I am wondering just what this is ? I would check that out first , and do what eskimo said .
With a 6 year old house , I very much doubt that the pipes are full of rust already and slowing down your water . That happens with old houses that have a open to air water tank . With a bladder tank this won't be a problem . That's with a well , I doubt that you have a private well correct ?
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A flat head valve turned in one direction is likely to be nothing more than the water shut off.
First thing first. Go to the hardware store a bog box like home depot and buy a $10.00 water pressure guage that you can screw onto a hose spigot. It will be able to read from 0 to about 120 lbs or so. Turn off ALL water in the house. Every spigot to let the pressure build to the max. Make sure you do not have a leaking toilet. Open the spigot with the guage, now you will have a figure to deal with and not simple speculation.
If the pressure is less than 40 PSI you definitely have low pressure. The residential norm in the area I lived in was 60 to 65 PSI.
Now you need to turn on another faucet, just one, and fill a measured gallon container. You should get a flow of at least 4 to 6 gallons per minute. That means you should fill that gallon container in a maximum of 15 seconds. Getting about 10 seconds per gallon would be 6 GPM and that was the norm in my area in Tucson.
Once you have this information you know what the problem is, either pressure, flow or both. A problem in each could be because of a flow restriction or low pressure either to your property or after. do the same tests in different spots in relation to the feed line to your property.
Until you have actual figures anything else is not likely to be taken seriously by the utility company.
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Originally posted by Maverick
A flat head valve turned in one direction is likely to be nothing more than the water shut off.
First thing first. Go to the hardware store a bog box like home depot and buy a $10.00 water pressure guage that you can screw onto a hose spigot. It will be able to read from 0 to about 120 lbs or so. Turn off ALL water in the house. Every spigot to let the pressure build to the max. Make sure you do not have a leaking toilet. Open the spigot with the guage, now you will have a figure to deal with and not simple speculation.
If the pressure is less than 40 PSI you definitely have low pressure. The residential norm in the area I lived in was 60 to 65 PSI.
Now you need to turn on another faucet, just one, and fill a measured gallon container. You should get a flow of at least 4 to 6 gallons per minute. That means you should fill that gallon container in a maximum of 15 seconds. Getting about 10 seconds per gallon would be 6 GPM and that was the norm in my area in Tucson.
Once you have this information you know what the problem is, either pressure, flow or both. A problem in each could be because of a flow restriction or low pressure either to your property or after. do the same tests in different spots in relation to the feed line to your property.
Until you have actual figures anything else is not likely to be taken seriously by the utility company.
Even better than my idea and only $10.
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Smaller pipes do not = lower pressure. The pressure remains the same with small or larger pipes. The volume of water changes with sizes of pipes. Get a pressure guage that attaches to a hose valve and check it near the house, preferably after the pressure regulator. You stated watering you lawn is a problem also. Does your water line split after the meter and go to the house and to your sprinkler valves? If so, is the pressure the same to both? Does your meter at the street sit at a lower altitude than the house by say 20+ feet where your home is higher? This can reduce pressure also as water is pushed uphill. If your water pressure at the street meter is around 35 psi then you will have some of these problems.
I'm not a plumber. I'm a dentist by trade. I do work alot on my own home and live on top of a hill. I had this same problem when I moved in 20 years ago and did several things. I had old pipes so i replaced the corroded galvanized pipes from 1948 with copper. This helped with volume of water but I still had only 30 psi at the meter. The water company then installed a pump in their system to make the pressure closer to 70 psi at my meter which helped immensly.
I recently placed a booster pump at my mother-in-laws home along with a pressurized holding tank. She also had about 35 psi at the street and the water company was going to do nothing to increase that. Her home was about 30 feet above the meter. Pressure at the house was about 28psi.
I placed a water pump after the meter that pumps the water into a pressurized holding tank. There is an internal bladder that fills with water with air surrounding it in the tank. The pump's regulator valve detects a low water pressure, turns on and pumps the pressure of the water up to be held in the tank. You will need a valve to prevent back flow to the meter. The tank is used to keep the booster pump from cycling and burning out the contacts. I was able to increase her pressure to 75psi and in turn, helped with her sprinkler system also.
Check for the easy things first. I added all this as a possible fix. The best thing to do is to get 70 psi or so to the water meter then you just have to make sure your pipes and valves are clear. You could also have too many sprinkler heads on one sprinkler valve.
I hope this has been of some help.
Jim one-eye :)
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Originally posted by 1ijac
Smaller pipes do not = lower pressure.
Smaller pipes do lower pressure when water is flowing. String together 10 garden hoses and see what happens. When water is not flowing, pressure is the same as long as the elevation is the same. Every added foot of elevation takes away 0.434 PSI. I’m not a plumber either but hydraulics was a required course when I studied fire science in college. The principles are also regularly applied when setting up hoses at a fire.
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Well, actually it depends on what type of pressure you are talking about. "Static" pressure remains the same because water is not moving in the system. "Dynamic" pressure can change because water is moving through the system. A larger pipe will reduce water friction on the inside of the pipe which will result in less pressure loss from static pressure. A rougher internal surface of the pipe will increase friction which will reduce the dynamic pressure more than if the internal surface was very smooth. Elevation changes the dynamic pressure by reducing it as water flows uphill and increasing it as it flows down hill. In regards to the fire hose scenario, you try to increase the size of the hose to increase dynamic pressure. It reduces friction by allowing more volume to pass through the hose thereby causing less of the water flow to be affected by friction.
I find this discussion fun because I haven't really thought about all the physics I took in college for a long time. This is good for my 50 year old mind to be challenged. It's been filled too much lately with all the blah blah blah chest thumping on channel 200 in AH. :)
The effects on fluid flow and pressure can be reviewed at:
Water flow and pressure (http://sunny.crk.umn.edu/courses/gfts/3077/PrinciplesofWaterPressure-Mod2.ppt)
Jim 1i
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Originally posted by 1ijac
I find this discussion fun because I haven't really thought about all the physics I took in college for a long time. This is good for my 50 year old mind to be challenged. It's been filled too much lately with all the blah blah blah chest thumping on channel 200 in AH. :)
The effects on fluid flow and pressure can be reviewed at:
Water flow and pressure (http://sunny.crk.umn.edu/courses/gfts/3077/PrinciplesofWaterPressure-Mod2.ppt)
Jim 1i
You want physics fun? Have you seen this thread: plane on a conveyor belt? (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=197189&referrerid=3726)
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water pressure may read ok with a guage, but if its a volume issue, such as an incorrectly intalled valve, the pressure will reduce greatly while using it due to reduced volume. Really, if your neighbors is fine and yours is as anemic as you say, it has to be an incorrectly installed or faulty valve assuming you and your neighbor are on the same feed line, especially if this was how it was from the beginning.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
water pressure may read ok with a guage, but if its a volume issue, such as an incorrectly intalled valve, the pressure will reduce greatly while using it due to reduced volume. Really, if your neighbors is fine and yours is as anemic as you say, it has to be an incorrectly installed or faulty valve assuming you and your neighbor are on the same feed line, especially if this was how it was from the beginning.
Yes, a valve is likely but it could be a supply line that is way too small, a kinked copper pipe, some odd obstruction or ?
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I agree, some type of restriction is the problem.
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
I agree, some type of restriction is the problem.
Good; now that we’ve solved this let’s talk about Gunslinger’s drinking problem.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Good; now that we’ve solved this let’s talk about Gunslinger’s drinking problem.
Yes, if he has low water pressure that could impede the ability of his ice maker to make ice which directly limits his drink possibilities like Margaritas, white russians, bloody marys, etc. That could cause a serious drinking problem...
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Good; now that we’ve solved this let’s talk about Gunslinger’s drinking problem.
Is it a pressure issue or just strictly volume?
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Originally posted by WhiteHawk
Is it a pressure issue or just strictly volume?
Both I think. He drinks so much that it creates enough pressure that he pees out of his ears.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Good; now that we’ve solved this let’s talk about Gunslinger’s drinking problem.
Yes, and my only problem is 18 hours shifts for 6 weeks in a row does not allow adiquet time to consume.
About the outside valve, it's got a shut off valve and then what I assumed was some type of adjustable regulator.
I have a home insurance program that only costs me a $50 deductable. I might give them a call first after I see what the pressure is reading.
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Turn on the outside faucet where the water line meets the house.... if there is consistent good pressure there then you can start looking inside. I installed lawn sprinkler systems for years on the side... I have seen all kinds of issues... the funniest was the service line was 1/2 inch copper tubing, the guy worked for an airconditioning firm and used that. Your service line to your home should be 1 inch minimum.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Yes, and my only problem is 18 hours shifts for 6 weeks in a row does not allow adiquet time to consume.
About the outside valve, it's got a shut off valve and then what I assumed was some type of adjustable regulator.
I have a home insurance program that only costs me a $50 deductable. I might give them a call first after I see what the pressure is reading.
Keep in mind, even if your supply is restricted, your pressure will read normal unless you are using water.
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That's why I suggested the flow rate test.
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Originally posted by Shuffler
Your service line to your home should be 1 inch minimum.
3/4" is standard.