Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: WhiteHawk on April 07, 2007, 11:44:53 AM
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Man, stumbled upon a website that happen to equate depleted uranuim shells with that of a dirty bomb?? Except it maims friend and foe alike. Anybody know anything about this stuff? Military peopel who work around or with this? I know quite a few Gulf war vets and all of them seem fine but is this what this gulf war syndrome is?
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DU rounds have been banned in many countries as they are indeed very dangerous if you get hit by them. :D
J/K. There should be plenty of reading out there if you are indeed interested, just dont count on alot of people beeing against them in here. Just like anti-personel mines and cluster bombs there are many nations who refuse to use them because of the problems they cause on the battlefield AFTER the fight is over.
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After the first gulf war iraqis living in the areas of combat suffered from increased cancer and birth defect rates. DU rounds are mainly suspected to be the cause.
Depleted or not, it's still uranium.
Mines and cluster munitions are a lesser risk because those doesn't contaminate the air and can be disarmed and contained easier than contamination. Mines can be also used rather safely when used considerately. Most problems by mines are caused in the areas where those are scattered all around randomly.
For example in the WWII germans didn't just lay mines whenever they felt like so. Germans marked minefields on the maps and they had a set of different patterns for their minefields which could be identified after finding couple of mines. None of this is practiced in the countries which suffers from mines, which leads to all the negativity towards mines.
So, yes... DU and mines are two different animals.
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Moral of the story: (also applies to cluster munitions) Dont tick off countries that use these weapons.
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I'd attribute the cancer and birth defects to the burning oil wells alot faster than DU ammo. Breathing all that sooty oil smoke didn't do anyone any good.
The problem with DU is that the hulks of vehicles destroyed with this ammo have uranium dust in them.
It's the same danger that you'd have if you breathed powdered lead, aluminum or any other metal you'd care to name.
The people working with the destroyed vehicles just need to protect themselves from the dust.
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Do the pilots of the A-10s breath any of the air from their 30mm?
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Many of the Gulf War vets that have had medical problems spent allot of time up in the oil fires in Kuwait. I know because I'm one of them. While I was lucky and only spent a few days up in that hell hole, I have had some medical problems ever since. The first couple of months after I returned to the states, I was coughing up black tar out of my lungs every morning and would have a hard time breathing after one of these coughing fits. Yes I was a smoker but I was 19 years old at the time and had only been smoking on and off for a few years. What I was experiancing was not normal.
I have also had unexplained skin rashes on and off over the years. My hair started going grey right after I returned. I've had blood presure and heart problems. I had a heart attack at the age of 30. I'm 35 now and I'm going through the process of being medicaly retired from the military with 100% disability. I can no longer pass a physical to remain on active duty. I contribute many of my symptoms to serving over there because I do work out and try to stay in decent physical condition but it gets harder all the time.
My kids have also had medical problems. Nothing real serious, thank God, but when I'm laying awake in the middle of the night I wonder if it's just one of those things or if I might have passed something on to my kids.
The scary thing is, I know I'll be lucky if I'm still alive 10 years from now. At 35, contemplating your own death is kinda messed up.
The point of all this is that while people like to point fingers at DU rounds being used, and the higher cancer rates and stuff, no one wants to look at the enviromental impact all those fires had. There were days when the wind wasn't blowing and the smoke hung so thick over the area you had to turn on the headlights on the vehicles in the middle of the day because it was so dark. You couldn't see more than 20 feet at noon because of the smoke. How many toxins where put into the air and ground during that time. Those fires burned for months spewing toxins all over the area. Toxins that have been proven to cause cancer and those toxins don't just go away when the fire is put out. Take a look at the health of the fire fighters that went over to put them out. A very large percentage have the same symptoms as the soilders do. Is that a coincedence? I doubt it.
The amount of DU ammo used in the Gulf War can't account for the numbers of people that have fallen ill since that time. The toxins released by those fires can.
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I have a friend who's husband was in Desert Storm and she said that along with everything else, he never sleeps anymore, she said when he does sleep he wakes up screaming. I think he did Bosnia and that stuff too.
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I think my Father worked for the NSA, he will wake up screaming, even today.
P.S. Him and I get along today, but he won't talk much about the past to me.
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Iraq sites can often be contaminated by depleted uranium from Desert Storm and the Iraq War.
DU used in AP ammunition, as well as penetrating bombs (used against buildings and bunkers for example). Saddam had a lot of NATO munitions from the Iraq-Iran war in those bunkers we blew up as well, some of which probably had DU.
American G.I.s told to stay out of burnt out Iraqi armor in Iraq, but either to get their glory pics taken, collect souvenirs, or (in my case) trying to salvage some armor or blister shields to use in up-armoring our own soft-sided vehicles for use in-country, soldiers get exposed to DU residue.
Also, many buildings were hit in Iraq with what were probably DU tiped bombs. The Ministry of Information is one I can think of. My Heavy Search and Rescue Team (one of many jobs) trained in bombed out buildings like these... as part of our mission was to enter bombed out structures to look for survivors, sensitive documents and equipment if necessary, if insurgents started to drop buildings around Baghdad. Shoring, blocking, & bracing of compromised structures, work in confined spaces, patient packaging and extraction, and rope work.
This put us in contact with DU residue as well. Some units have reoccupied many of these bombed out shells, braced them, and turned them into working and living areas. This also exposes soldiers to DU.
Never heard of any thorough surveys being done as the how wide spread DU residue exposure actually is in country. Or of any testing of soldiers, living and working areas, or equipment for contamination to DU (among other hazards).
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Xargos says "Do the pilots of the A-10s breath any of the air from their 30mm?"
The problem with DU happens after the projectile hits a target. The penetrator itself is not radioactive but it is a heavy metal. When this metal is disintegrated into dust after striking the target the powdered uranium dust is dangerous if inhaled.
The precautions are the same in any dusty environment. Masks, suits , gloves are used for protection.
The people I worry about are those that were at ground zero on 9-11. The dust they inhaled was powdered concrete which is basically like inhaling powdered glass.
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We have so much to learn as humans.
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Originally posted by Xargos
We have so much to learn as humans.
Ditto big time.
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Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but isn't uranium radioactive?
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It's a heavy metal and a poison.
P.S. I have slight lead poisoning and it effects my reaction time down.
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Originally posted by dmf
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but isn't uranium radioactive?
indeed
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Originally posted by Xargos
It's a heavy metal and a poison.
P.S. I have slight lead poisoning and it effects my reaction time down.
Do
we
need
to
speak
slooooow
?
;)
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:rofl Don't make me hurt you Nilsen.
P.S. I know my limitations, it does not bother me. :cool:
P.P.S. As long as I have my Johnnie Walker Black I'm happy.
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hehe you know i was just kidding right?
there was one dude in LW just now that could not take a joke even if the rest of channel 200 did :D
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No harm, No foul.
Your cool with me Nilsen.
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hornet33, did you take all of the three vaccines during gulf-war?
i know my brother was on edge for a few years after the twins were born.
he only took one shot tho, and then, he told them to go &*%$ themselves when they tried to give him two more.
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Originally posted by Torque
hornet33, did you take all of the three vaccines during gulf-war?
i know my brother was on edge for a few years after the twins were born.
he only took one shot tho, and then, he told them to go &*%$ themselves when they tried to give him two more.
What are the shots? I want to know more.
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Ok so if this stuff is a heavy metal and a poison why do we use it as ammo? Who is the college educated idiotic moron that decided on that move.
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They were an experimantal drug that was "supposed" to boost a persons ability to deal with the effects of certain chemical munitions. In addition to the shots, we were given pills that "worked" in cunjunction with the shots. I recieved 2 of the 3 shots, but I never took the pills like we were supposed to. The shots made me feel sick for a day or so afterwards so I wasn't going to take any chances with the pills.
What pisses me off is there is no record of my getting those shots in my medical record. I got out of the Army in 1992 and joined the Coast Guard. I brought all this up when they started to process me for retirement and the Coast Guard Docs had no idea what I was talking about. I know they requested all information concerning my medical records from the Army but the Army claims to have handed everything over to the Coast Guard concerning me. I have my lawyer looking into it but I don't expect anything to develop from that either.
I don't even know what the name of the stuff was they gave us and I haven't been able to find anything online about it either. All I know was when they gave us the shots it was the typical military assembly line deal. Line up with your sleeve rolled up, step forward and a medic wipes your arm clean, step forward and get the injection, step forward and sign on the sheet that you recieved your shot, get kicked out of the tent and get sent back to work.
At 19 years old you just don't know enough to ask questions about stuff like that. 16 years later no one has a clue what your talking about, and yeah it bothers me that I don't know. It bothers me that my health is failing and this might have something to do with it, but no one has any records to prove if I did or didn't get this stuff. Never mind the fact that I was at Ground Zero the day after the attack in New York helping with port security. We kept our boats and gear over at Ft. Wadsworth on Staten Island right next to one of the large pillings for the Verrazano Narrows Bridge. The trucks bringing debris out of the twin towers drove over that bridge and we were also having to clean dust off our gear all the time so I also have all that mess going for me too. Who knows what the hell I breathed in there. It wouldn't surprise me at all if I start to develop serious lung problems before too long. As it is I sometimes have a hard time breathing if I work out too hard. I study martial arts and it gets tough sometimes to keep going. I've had tests run but so far they haven't found anything. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
Don't get me wrong though. I don't want to sound like I'm complaining or blaming anyone. I'm proud of the service I performed in both cases and would do it all over again if I had to, but hind sight is always 20/20 after the fact. You can't always take the time to weigh the risks in those kind of situations. You just have to do the job and deal with the after effects later or the job wouldn't get done at all, but it does keep me awake at nights sometimes when I start thinking about all the things I've done and seen.
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Originally posted by dmf
Ok so if this stuff is a heavy metal and a poison why do we use it as ammo? Who is the college educated idiotic moron that decided on that move.
Because of how dense depleted uranium is, it makes an excellent penetrator for armor piercing rounds. It's also very heavy so it tends to retain it's velocity better than a projectile made out of a lighter metal.
For years the US Army maintained that its Sabot rounds were made out of Tungsten Steel. The fact that they were in fact made from depleted uranium has been called by some, the Army's best kept secret.
It was no secret that the A-10's 30mm GAU-8 gatling gun fired depleted uranium AP rounds. DU AP rounds is part of the reason the GAU-8 gun is so effective versus armored targets.
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I'm with the "oil crowd" on this one. While I was way too young to serve then I remember seeing pictures of all that burning oil and US troops covered in it from head to toe. Oil in of itself is a carcinogen (SP). and likely to cause more damage to somone that inhaling DU residue (not saying that the residue isn't harmfull)
I worked with a guy that was there and he would sometimes just drift off for an hour or two. I just let him go where ever his mind went and would gently nudge him when our shift was over. It was pretty sureal.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Because of how dense depleted uranium is, it makes an excellent penetrator for armor piercing rounds. It's also very heavy so it tends to retain it's velocity better than a projectile made out of a lighter metal.
For years the US Army maintained that its Sabot rounds were made out of Tungsten Steel.
DU is also much cheaper than tungsten, although tungsten is slightly more dense. DU is radioactive waste put into use instead of discarding it.
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Originally posted by dmf
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but isn't uranium radioactive?
Quite a lot of elements are radio active. Saying that depleted uranium is dangerous just because it is uranium is ignorant. Uranium 238, unlike Uranium 235, has quite a long half-life time. What will matter is the actual content of U238 in the mix with the other metals. I don't have the numbers, but I can't believe this is very high and that the typical round emit radiation in any significant rate, even if you have a few of them buried under your home.
People hear "Uranium" and panic. This is the reason why NMR (Nuclear Magnetic Resonance) in its medical application was renamed to MRI (Magnetic Resonance Imaging). Having the word "Nuclear" in the name scared people too much, even though it has nothing to do with nuclear decays and ionizing radiation.
The need for very mass-dense projectile arouse from the high energies involved with the impact. At these energies, the metals behave more as liquid than solid. The strength and rigidness of the solid lattice is of much less importance then the density.
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Hmmm I've read the responses to my last post and I kinda think that depleted uranium would still radioactive enough to kill wouldn't it?
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Originally posted by Hornet33
They were an experimantal drug that was "supposed" to boost a persons
ability to deal with the effects of certain chemical munitions..
the 2 Bio vaccines
Anthrax + pertussis((2 vaccines rolled into 1) The BIG 3)
Plague
As a Brit in GW1 i had the 2 above and the following Vaccines
Typhoid
Hepatitus A
Hepatitus B
Polio
Cholera
Tetanus
Yellow Fever
Meningitis
Don't forget the Naps tablets(increases resistance to nerve agents)
Pyridostigmine brodine
[What pisses me off is there is no record of my getting
those shots in my medical record. ]
your not the only one me too!!!
some americans also recieved
influenza
rabies
measels
Japaneses B encelphalatis
Rubella
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According to the guy doing the interview, there are 3 kinds of uranium that come with the Uranium ore. 3% (?) u-234, 15% u-235, and the rest is u-238. The u234 and u235 are fisionable and can be used as fuel and nukes, the u-238 is just as radioactive but is not fisionable. Its half life is 2.5 billion years whcih means once its released it is there forever. He claims that once the projectile hits its target or anything else, it vaporizes and is, in essence, a small dirty-bomb that pollutes its bit of earth for eternity. He claims we used 300 tons of this in the first Iraq war and smaller portions during the serbian conflict and the second war. I wont link to the site because they use horribly disfigured babies as a scare tactic without claiming that they are a direct result of DU munitions. I am more concerned that our armies are being poisoned by this stuff and if anybody had any direct first hand knowledge of the stuff or if our troops are warned of any hazards from DU shells. Or if anybody knows anybody who helps to manufacture the shells and do they wear the full nuke outfit or whatnot.
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Originally posted by bozon
Quite a lot of elements are radio active. Saying that depleted uranium is dangerous just because it is uranium is ignorant.
Assuming it is safe without any investigation is not all that smart either. Can you say that DU rounds are safe and back it up? Tungsten rounds are just as effective but it is not a hazardous waste by-product and therefore much more expensive. Companies who can sell thier waste instead of paying out the ying-yang to have somebody dispose of it safely have a large motive to downplay the dangers. It is usually up to the citizen to bring this out in the open before anything is done about it. Remember, a large number of US companies are controlled by foreign interests who really couldnt care less if our entire army is puking blood out their butts instead of winning wars.
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Depleted uranium isnt bad because of it's radiation. Obviously "nooklear" has a higher shock value for people campaigning against DU than anything else, so they use that.
The problem with DU, however, is that it is a heavy metal which could (when ingested) lead to cancer, birth defects and so on.
Due to the way DU rounds shatter and burn up on target, they leave an area contamined with poisonous heavy metal which can be easily ingested without protection - that's the real problem.
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FWIW so do lead projectiles. Breathing in or ingesting any heavy metal or metal that will react and be absorbed in the body is very bad.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Iraq sites can often be contaminated by depleted uranium from Desert Storm and the Iraq War.
DU used in AP ammunition, as well as penetrating bombs (used against buildings and bunkers for example). Saddam had a lot of NATO munitions from the Iraq-Iran war in those bunkers we blew up as well, some of which probably had DU.
American G.I.s told to stay out of burnt out Iraqi armor in Iraq, but either to get their glory pics taken, collect souvenirs, or (in my case) trying to salvage some armor or blister shields to use in up-armoring our own soft-sided vehicles for use in-country, soldiers get exposed to DU residue.
Also, many buildings were hit in Iraq with what were probably DU tiped bombs. The Ministry of Information is one I can think of. My Heavy Search and Rescue Team (one of many jobs) trained in bombed out buildings like these... as part of our mission was to enter bombed out structures to look for survivors, sensitive documents and equipment if necessary, if insurgents started to drop buildings around Baghdad. Shoring, blocking, & bracing of compromised structures, work in confined spaces, patient packaging and extraction, and rope work.
This put us in contact with DU residue as well. Some units have reoccupied many of these bombed out shells, braced them, and turned them into working and living areas. This also exposes soldiers to DU.
Never heard of any thorough surveys being done as the how wide spread DU residue exposure actually is in country. Or of any testing of soldiers, living and working areas, or equipment for contamination to DU (among other hazards).
A buddy of mine at work drove a wrecker for the army and was charged
with recovering Iraqi vehicles. He said he was only told about the risk from
DU rounds after he was out of the service.
Fortunately he hasn't suffered any ill effects from his experiences. He
did say that they were told not to bother with obviously destroyed vehicles,
but that sometimes it wasn't obvious from the outside.
Dave was also in Bosnia, but only for a short time as they were
swapping out new vehicles from his replacement depot in Italy for UN
troops already in country.
(http://svsm.org/albums/HEMTT/IMGP0586.jpg)
Using this vehicle he could recover even T-72s and BMPs...although
he was supposed to cut the "driveshaft", most times they just put them
in neutral and rolled out.
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DU is very dense, heavy and hard, its cheaper than tungsten (the other common material used in APFSDS rounds), is readily available and it has an interesting quality in that it somehow self sharpens by burning its surface away as it penetrates armor and does not deform like tungsten penetrator would.
Its really great ammo and very powerful. For example the US still use a 44 caliber length 120mm gun and the DU ammo while the germans are now using a 55 caliber version of the same 120mm gun and their tungsten ammo doesnt have the AP performance of the US weapon.
The amount of DU used in GW1 was microscopic compared to the imapct of Saddams oil fires. Only US hating communits would balme DU for thye health effects afte GW1 while ignoring the obvious environmental disater that the toxic fires were.
(http://space.about.com/library/graphics/iraq/desertwadiskuwaitsmoke.jpg)
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Originally posted by Maverick
FWIW so do lead projectiles. Breathing in or ingesting any heavy metal or metal that will react and be absorbed in the body is very bad.
that's why indoor gun ranges have had to improve their ventilation systems.
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Depleted Uranium is dangerous. We should switch to something non-toxic like lead.
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you forgot right? :)
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Originally posted by dmf
Hmmm I've read the responses to my last post and I kinda think that depleted uranium would still radioactive enough to kill wouldn't it?
Long term, maybe.
DU is / was used as balance weights in aircraft flight controls. In the industry there is usually someone who has a small rivet bucking bar made of a discarded DU weight. Its very hard and very heavy, making it perfect for tight space riveting. As hard as it is, I cant really see where there would be any "dust" from it when using it in this fashion, but there are the inherent hazards same as lead.
BTW, I dont have a DU bucking bar, but have used them.
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On the whole DU thing I only have this to say. If countries don't want the US litering their country with DU rounds, don't screw with us. We use it because it works better than anything else on the planet for it's intended role. Why change to something less effective that might put our troops at risk? In war you have your people and everyone else and you don't worry about everyone else. The PC police are all over it because somehow they think wars should be fought more gently or something.
HELLO????? It's war, people die, and the object is to kill more of the bad guys first before they can kill your guys. But we have to find a way to fight without killing people? Non lethal weapons?? Who comes up with this stuff? Oh that's right....the bleeding heart liberals who wet their pants if something ends up on TV showing someone getting killed in a war.
Take a look at Iraq. Democrats wanted to start an investigation because Iraqi insurgents were dieing in large numbers from head shots by US Soilders. The Democrats thought that our boys were executing them. Well as it turns out, our boys are just really good shots, and when the only thing you can see is the guys head who's shooting at you, well you shoot him in the head. Makes sense right? Not to the bleeding heart gang it doesn't.
These are the same folks that are cutting funding, want tighter rules of engagement, and think all the worlds problems can be solved with a hug or by giving the bad guys what they want and that'll make them happy and they'll leave us alone. What a bunch of morons.
I say use DU as much as possible. Bring back napalm. Use cluster munitions. Use WP. Kill them and cause as much damage as possible. Turn those countries into a smoking, radioactive mess and maybe those nutjobs over there will get the hint that we aren't screwing around anymore.
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I just don't want to live around any of that stuff, I have to think about my daughter, trust me if its dangerous, she'll find it.
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Hornet33,
Thank you for your service.
I hope that your health improves, regardless of what is causing your problems. I especially hope your kids escape your health problems.
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We were just told not to go near any Iraqi tanks etc that had been taken out, had some sort of idea that it was due to DU rounds but I'm glad I listened, Couple of boys went poking around, dunno if they are still ok or not though.
You should have seen the road going from Kuwait up to Basra, mile after mile of hulks, everything from mercedes limos to Tanks to APC's etc, incredible to think that so much damage could have been done in so short of a time, I would have posted some pics to show you boys, but the ex wife threw all my pic albums out in the trash.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I'm with the "oil crowd" on this one. While I was way too young to serve then I remember seeing pictures of all that burning oil and US troops covered in it from head to toe. Oil in of itself is a carcinogen (SP). and likely to cause more damage to somone that inhaling DU residue (not saying that the residue isn't harmfull)
I worked with a guy that was there and he would sometimes just drift off for an hour or two. I just let him go where ever his mind went and would gently nudge him when our shift was over. It was pretty sureal.
There was also some other Forces there too, namely the British forces;)
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Originally posted by Hawco
I would have posted some pics to show you boys, but the ex wife threw all my pic albums out in the trash.
I guess that's part of the reason why she's an ex. Or is your avatar really you?
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Originally posted by dmf
I just don't want to live around any of that stuff, I have to think about my daughter, trust me if its dangerous, she'll find it.
Unless she is going to go play on blown up tanks and other vehicles in Iraq I think you can rest easy. The practice ammo used on the ranges by tanks etc. is not DU it's just steel because it's cheaper.
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Well considering where I live I don't think she'll be around a tank anytime soon. Now if Hornet falls out of the sky on final into Oceana then we might have a problem at the playground.
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Originally posted by Hawco
We were just told not to go near any Iraqi tanks etc that had been taken out, had some sort of idea that it was due to DU rounds but I'm glad I listened, Couple of boys went poking around, dunno if they are still ok or not though.
You should have seen the road going from Kuwait up to Basra, mile after mile of hulks, everything from mercedes limos to Tanks to APC's etc, incredible to think that so much damage could have been done in so short of a time, I would have posted some pics to show you boys, but the ex wife threw all my pic albums out in the trash.
Were the bodies still there when you went down that road? We had to put our gas masks on when we went through because the smell of rotting, burned flesh was just overpowering. Puked my guts out halfway down that road from the smell. Was pretty awfull to look at. They were just starting the cleanup on the south end of that mess when we rolled through.
By the way Hawco, what unit where you with over there?
I was A btry 1/158th Field Artillery (MLRS) Ammo Platoon. I think we were attached to the 42nd Field Artillery Brigade at that point. Not real sure since we bounced around so much. We were the only National Guard MLRS unit in theater so we got handed off to a bunch of different units during the ground war. Fired a bunch of rockets though. 798 from my battery alone if my memory serves me correctly. We were some busy folks over there.
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I was attached to the Royal Scots who were in turn attached to the 7th armoured brigade.
But as usual it was a mix mash of everyone and everything just piled all together.
Think I remember those MLRS hornet, is that the big trucks with the rox onboard ?
We were there not long after the flyboys had done their thing, think there was some boys from the 1st Marine div too, to be honest, I can't really recall who was where and what, looked like the wacky races going on, everything from Warriors to Humvees and Bradleys, couple of Challengers all mixed in and heading the same way.
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Originally posted by dmf
Hmmm I've read the responses to my last post and I kinda think that depleted uranium would still radioactive enough to kill wouldn't it?
The good thing about radioactive decays is that the amount of radiation a chunk of matter emits is very predictable. It also scales with the total mass, so you can tell exactly how much radiation you'd absorb from 1kg of depleted Uranium 2m from you.
The problem is that I have no idea what is a "healthy" level of radiation. Our body is hit by ionizing radiation all the time due to rather common elements decays and cosmic rays. Our body has significant amount of carbon in it. A given fraction of it is Carbon 14 which is a radioactive element, useful for archaeological dating. The body can deal with a low level of radiation.
So it is all down to the amount of material around you and length of exposure. I wouldn't like to work in an ammo bunker filled with this stuff for years. If there are a few shells scattered in your back yard, I seriously doubt it is less healthy than eating MacDonalds every day and its definitely better than smoking. The army is not known for worrying about the troops health, but if this stuff was really bad to work with, there would have been precautions and warnings.
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DU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-8PlJVhogs&mode=related&search=) movie
(http://cartoonkate.gn.apc.org/war%20posters/depleted%20uranium%20is%20nuclear%20war.jpg)
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Originally posted by bozon
The problem is that I have no idea what is a "healthy" level of radiation. Our body is hit by ionizing radiation all the time due to rather common elements decays and cosmic rays. Our body has significant amount of carbon in it. A given fraction of it is Carbon 14 which is a radioactive element, useful for archaeological dating. The body can deal with a low level of radiation.
What matters most with the radiation is what kind of decay it is, that pretty much determines the lethality. Carbon 14 emits beta decay which is not so dangerous to living cells as uranium which can emit gamma - which is the most dangerous type of radiation.
Of course almost anything can be lethal given too much, but most of the natural radiation is of a less dangerous type of radiation and in low quantities.
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Uranium decays into Thorium through alpha decay and from there, pretty quickly cascades down to Lead in a series of both beta and alpha decays. The half-life of the products on the way is very short. You get gamma radiation in almost all radioactive decays. All 3 types are dangerous since they are all ionizing. You can argue that particle vs. particle, one is more dangerous than the other, but that just bring you again to the question of quantity.
I don't say that DU is safe. I say it is not automatically dangerous. Probably more poison than radiation source. We are always under the influence of some level of ionizing radiation.
edit:
ghi, that movie is silly.
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ghi, where did you find that masterpiece? :rofl :aok
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Originally posted by Hawco
I was attached to the Royal Scots who were in turn attached to the 7th armoured brigade.
But as usual it was a mix mash of everyone and everything just piled all together.
Think I remember those MLRS hornet, is that the big trucks with the rox onboard ?
We were there not long after the flyboys had done their thing, think there was some boys from the 1st Marine div too, to be honest, I can't really recall who was where and what, looked like the wacky races going on, everything from Warriors to Humvees and Bradleys, couple of Challengers all mixed in and heading the same way.
(http://www.primeportal.net/hemtt/images/m985.jpg)
This is the kind of truck I was driving, M985 HEMTT (Heavy Expanded Mobility Tactical Truck) The rocket pods in this pic are of course empty and the trucks we had were painted Desert Tan but it gives you a real good idea of what I cruised around in over there. Nothing like taking one of these into combat with 10 tons of explosives and solid rocket propelant in the back.
I had a run in with some Royal Scouts. Had one knock on the door to my truck one day telling me I needed to move because a British artillery unit was bringing up some M110A2 8" self propelled howitzers and they wanted to park one about 100 meters behind where my truck was sitting. Needless to say, I vacated the area. You don't want to be in front of an 8" when that sucker goes off.
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on ghis pic>I find that babyskin vest the evil Mastermind mutant in the middle is wearing to be quite disturbing. Even more so then evilislambaby hitler on the left.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
(http://www.primeportal.net/hemtt/images/m985.jpg)
This is the kind of truck I was driving, M985 HEMTT (Heavy Expanded Mobility Tactical Truck) The rocket pods in this pic are of course empty and the trucks we had were painted Desert Tan but it gives you a real good idea of what I cruised around in over there. Nothing like taking one of these into combat with 10 tons of explosives and solid rocket propelant in the back.
I had a run in with some Royal Scouts. Had one knock on the door to my truck one day telling me I needed to move because a British artillery unit was bringing up some M110A2 8" self propelled howitzers and they wanted to park one about 100 meters behind where my truck was sitting. Needless to say, I vacated the area. You don't want to be in front of an 8" when that sucker goes off.
That's the trucks Hornet, I remember seeing them swivel out and turn, I remember the guy telling us he had some sort of armoured blinds in the cab? I also remember the Marine guys now, they were part of Task force Ripper.
Our ingress routes were marked as gold, sliver and bronze, further west to you boys, but when the day came, we got pulled here and there and we ended up as some sort of crazy gang ploughing our way forward lol.
We had a mix of American Mp's and British MP's just behind us managing the prisoners as we moved forward, we would move in, secure the objective and then they would show up and start to police the area, we would grab a bite etc and then onwards and upwards as they say.
Feels like yesterday Hornet doesn't it?
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Sometimes it does. My unit was with the left hook gang, VII Corp for the most part but we did fire some missions in support of the XVIII Airborne Corp while up north. We ended up south of Basra somewhere, then headed back south along the highway after the cease fire. Hung out near the southern oil fields in Kuwait for about 5 days before we headed back into Saudi. If you guys were heading north right up through Kuwait, then I probably passed you going the other way.
The louverd blinds are on the launchers. Here's a good frontal shot of an MLRS Launcher.
(http://www.haaland.info/norway/army/bilder/mlrs-notpainted.jpg)
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google is your friend.
<In military applications, when alloyed, Depleted Uranium [DU] is ideal for use in armor penetrators. These solid metal projectiles have the speed, mass and physical properties to perform exceptionally well against armored targets. DU provides a substantial performance advantage, well above other competing materials. This allows DU penetrators to defeat an armored target at a significantly greater distance. Also, DU's density and physical properties make it ideal for use as armor plate. DU has been used in weapon systems for many years in both applications.
Depleted uranium results from the enriching of natural uranium for use in nuclear reactors. Natural uranium is a slightly radioactive metal that is present in most rocks and soils as well as in many rivers and sea water. Natural uranium consists primarily of a mixture of two isotopes (forms) of uranium, Uranium-235 (U235) and Uranium-238 (U238), in the proportion of about 0.7 and 99.3 percent, respectively. Nuclear reactors require U235 to produce energy, therefore, the natural uranium has to be enriched to obtain the isotope U235 by removing a large part of the U238. Uranium-238 becomes DU, which is 0.7 times as radioactive as natural uranium. Since DU has a half-life of 4.5 billion years, there is very little decay of those DU materials. >>
according to this , DU weapons are NOT made from old nuke fuel rods (U235), it is made from what is left of natural uranium (U238) after the fuel rods are produced, and is LESS radio active than natural uranium.
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Don't think I'd like to have hung around them oil wells, your right, we went right up North, straight up the pipe as we called it, hard to belive that here we are on an AH BBS and we probably passed each other some way along the line in another life.
We had some fire support from mainly British Artillery, but who knows who's rounds were going where? I was at the bottom of the food chain and so I had no idea much of the time, in the warrior and out the warrior, rinse and repeat, All I did was make sure I got as close to the gun group as possible, everytime we dismounted.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
This is the kind of truck I was driving, M985 HEMTT (Heavy Expanded Mobility Tactical Truck) ...
HEMTT's... Not the best vehicle to ride around Iraq in, but at least you were not running the refuelers.
Insurgents liked nothing better than hitting a HEMTT since those big diesel fuel tanks it had would burn for hours, but a HEMTT refueler rig was the thing insurgent wet dreams were made of. Columns of thick black smoke thousands of feet high burning through the day. Big display for everyone to see.
I remember the day the convoy from KBR Anaconda got hit from Anaconda coming to BIAP. I was living in LSA West at the time, just before moving to Taji, and they got hit just to our north on Sword. Looked like pics from the oil well fires in Desert Storm from a distance.
*******
And all of you worried about radiation ought to look at what coal fired plants release. DU is bad, or worse, for it's heavy metal properties than it's radioactivity. Coal plants routinely release uranium (1 part per million (ppm) in some samples to around 10 ppm in others) and thorium (2.5 times as much as uranium amounts typically) but also daughter products produced by the decay of these isotopes, such as radium, radon, polonium, bismuth, lead, and radioactive potassium-40.
The collected ash from the plants that ends up as waste is made up of coal ash: composed primarily of oxides of silicon, aluminum, iron, calcium, magnesium, titanium, sodium, potassium, arsenic, mercury, and sulfur plus small quantities of uranium and thorium, as well as Fly Ash: primarily composed of non-combustible silicon compounds (glass) melted during combustion. Tiny glass spheres form the bulk of the fly ash.
You get less radiation exposure living next to a nuclear plant than living downwind of a coal burning plant.
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Not bothered one bit about DU rounds, Just glad they done the job they were designed for, no doubt the tree huggers will be wringing their hands reading this, but so what.
Wish I'd seen one of those A10's in action but all I ever saw was a few harriers waaay in the distance, doing their thing, couple of A10's flew over us once, first thought in my head was "kill em all" make no apology for that, none at all.
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I very rarely saw any aircraft out where we were at. Some helo's from time to time. We did have about a dozen or so cruise missles fly over us though. That was kinda weird to see.
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Originally posted by dmf
Ok so if this stuff is a heavy metal and a poison why do we use it as ammo? Who is the college educated idiotic moron that decided on that move.
There so far has not been one scientific report that can establish with 100% certainty that the depleted uranium rounds used have caused cancer in those that have come into contact with these rounds.
One round from an A-10 can kill any tank in existance, that's why DU rounds are used.
ack-ack
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OT: any of you arty guys who were deployed ever see an "IMETS" Hummer?, or the "AN/TMQ-40 Integrated Meteorological System"?.. Army MOS 93Fox
I was told there were 3 early models in country.
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If mankind is unable to have children in our future.
you all know why.
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"Mankind" does not have children even in the present. Womankind does.
:p
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Originally posted by BaDkaRmA158Th
If mankind is unable to have children in our future.
you all know why.
Yep it'll be the U.S.'s fault for using DU ammo in Iraq, because no one else on this planet ever screws anything up.
If it gets to the point where the human race can't repopulate itself, it won't be because of DU rounds, not that I really care one way or the other. Too many damn people on this rock as it is.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
Yep it'll be the U.S.'s fault for using DU ammo in Iraq, because no one else on this planet ever screws anything up.
If it gets to the point where the human race can't repopulate itself, it won't be because of DU rounds, not that I really care one way or the other. Too many damn people on this rock as it is.
Good shout mate
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Yep it'll be the U.S.'s fault for using DU ammo in Iraq, because no one else on this planet ever screws anything up.
Could care less,because almost everyone uses Du rounds.
If it gets to the point where the human race can't repopulate itself, it won't be because of DU rounds, not that I really care one way or the other. Too many damn people on this rock as it is.
Agreed.