Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: DREDIOCK on April 09, 2007, 01:10:18 AM

Title: Looking for info
Post by: DREDIOCK on April 09, 2007, 01:10:18 AM

Ok we have some pretty good historians here. Im hoping some of you can help me out

On Feb 22 1944 B17s from the 381st bomber group including Bombers from
 the 532nd, 533rd ,535th, did a bombing run on Bunde Germany
where they were reportedly met by over 200 high caliber german fighters. Mostly 190s

During that action among others. the following crew was lost

2nd Lt. Downey, Charles H.      P   
2nd Lt. Herdlicka, Donald E.   CP   
2nd Lt. Hicks, John D.         N   
2nd Lt. Evans, James C.         B
S/Sgt. Chauvin, Miler P.      TTG
S/Sgt. Matheson, Earl E.      ROG   
Sgt. Phillips, Norman E.      RWG
S/Sgt. Carini, Adolph V.      LWG
S/Sgt. Sorbino, Joseph G.      TG
S/Sgt. Schiek, Earl B.         BTG

I am looking for two kinda of information.

What german units (squads) participated in this action (german records perhaps?)
and type and models used in these specific units.

Second has to do with the crew that was lost.
I know it was a B-17.
Would like to know which model, serial number (call number) And if the plane had a name or any other info on the plane itslef is available

Actually you wont just be helping me out. This is for my mother in law.
Her brother. was one Sorbino, Joseph G.  
Tailgunner on that plane.

I've found some stuff on my own which she didnt know about.
Much of which I have included here. what I am looking for is this missing information so I can give her a more complete picture

Title: Looking for info
Post by: BlauK on April 09, 2007, 06:49:26 AM

I am sure you have already seen this pic at vikipedia:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9e/381bg-ridgewell-inflight.jpg)

"B-17s of the 381st Bomb Group, Ridgewell Airfield England, enroute to targets over Nazi-occupied territory. The aircraft in the foreground is Boeing B-17G-70-BO Fortress, Serial 42-31443 "Friday the 13th" of the 532d Bomb Squadron. This aircraft was lost on 22 February 1944 on a mission to Bunde, Germany"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/381st_Bomb_Group

Just an interesting coincidence that it shows (or is claimed to show) a plane that was lost in Bunde on tha exact date.

Title: Looking for info
Post by: BlauK on April 09, 2007, 06:58:06 AM

Casualty list of 381st in year 1944:

Last Name First Name MI Crew pos Rank Fate Date A/C Serial MACR
Sorbino   Joseph   G. TG S/Sgt KIA 2/22/1944 42-31533 2931

So... it was not the plane in that picture above.

Title: Looking for info
Post by: DREDIOCK on April 09, 2007, 07:13:24 AM

Yanno I've been over the 381st site as welll as the rest of the web probably 100 times and havent stumbled across either of those.
I had found him. Even found his gravesite (the family was unaware he even had one)But not the AC serial #.
I had a feeling I needed a set of fresh eyes to look around.

while the plane in the pic isnt the same as his. it does provide a snippet of the event

Title: Looking for info
Post by: BlauK on April 09, 2007, 07:14:33 AM

The plane was received on Jan 4th 1944:
http://www.381st.org/histories/535th_01-1944.html

His squadron was 535, code MS
He was promoted to S/Sgt on Feb 8th 1944
His crew was assigned on Dec 28th 1943

Plane type was G and its letter was "U" .. no nick-name (? according to that list??)
http://www.381st.org/aircraft-roster.html

So the plane code was "MS-U"  (?)

Title: Looking for info
Post by: BlauK on April 09, 2007, 07:22:12 AM

According to its serial number...

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/1942_2.html

31533 (381st BG, 533rd BS) shot down by fighter Wiedenbruck, Germany Feb 22, 1944.  MACR 2931


Wiedenbruck is some 80 miles SSE from Bunde...  Unless there are some other places with same names.

Title: Looking for info
Post by: DREDIOCK on April 09, 2007, 07:56:44 AM

which led me to yet another snippet

31533 (381st BG, 533rd BS) shot down by fighter Wiedenbruck,
               Germany Feb 22, 1944.  MACR 2931

Knew it was shot down. Figured probably by an AC but couldnt say definitively if it was by AC or AAA

Now. whats  "Wiedenbruck" LOL

--edit---

Nevermind. just saw your last post
Musta foudn the same page around the same time

Title: Looking for info
Post by: TimRas on April 09, 2007, 09:18:20 AM

For Luftwaffe claims:

O.K.L. Fighter Claims : Chef für Ausz. und Dizsiplin Luftwaffen-Personalamt L.P. (A) V Films & Supplementary Claims from Lists

Look for file:

Reich, West and Südfront, Jan to Apr 1944. Vol. I


http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/tonywood.htm

Title: Looking for info
Post by: Hazzer on April 09, 2007, 10:24:44 AM

jg/26 were in the air on the 22:2:44 in their fw 190's, as were I/jg5 in brand new bf109's over regensburg, sorry I can't find more detailed information.

Title: Looking for info
Post by: BlauK on April 09, 2007, 12:58:22 PM

I found some possibilities from the great link TimRas gave. There was no mention of Wiedenbruck, but Gütersloh is right by it (about 5 miles) and Bielefeld a bit further away (some 15 miles)

22.2.1944  13:35-50 Ltn. Rudi Dassow 4./ZG 26 B-17 Bielefeld: 6.000 m.
22.2.1944  13:36 Obst. Walter Oesau:111 Stab/JG 1 B-17 10 km. N. Thier: 1.000 m. [Gütersloh]
22.2.1944  13:40 Ltn. Werner Gerth Sturmstaffel 1 B-17 Bielefeld: 6.500 m.
22.2.1944  15:05 Uffz. Kirchner:2 11./JG 11 B-17 05 Ost S/JR-1: 6.000 m. [W. Gütersloh]
22.2.1944  15:07 Oblt. Hermann Müller 10./NJG 3 B-17 IR-66: 5.500 m. [W. Gütersloh]
22.2.1944  15:09 Oblt. Hermann Müller 10./NJG 3 B-17 JR-66: no height  [W. Gütersloh]

If you only knew the altitude and the time....

Actually, a plane shot "west of Gütersloh" would likely crash pretty much right to Wiedenbruck.

From various sources... I cannot claim how reliable these are:
JG1 flew Fw190:s
4./ZG26 had Me410:s
Sst1 had Fw190:s
11./JG11 had Bf109T (?)
10./NJG3 had mostly Ju-88:s but also a couple of Fw190:s

Title: Looking for info
Post by: Airscrew on April 09, 2007, 01:01:13 PM

found a little stuff

http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~families/halsey/0144.html

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rioolpw/boeing_seattle_01.html

6647     B-17G-20-BO    xxx     42-31533


http://www.accident-report.com/macr.html

Sorbino, Joseph is listed here and they may have a copy of the report.
A complete report is listed at $25.00

Title: Looking for info
Post by: BlauK on April 09, 2007, 01:34:50 PM

Another source gives slightly different details to Walter Oesau's actions that day:

120.,  22.2.1944,  13:36,  B-17,  Stab JG 1,  N Thierl (Bielefeld-Münster), 6000 m

Title: Looking for info
Post by: DREDIOCK on April 09, 2007, 04:01:57 PM

Certainly a nice change of pace from just looking up aircraft performances in any event, huh

We have the opportunity to possibly place specific people in specific planes in places in time.
And help complete a story for a lost servicemans sister in the proccess

thanks a ton for the help


From the 81st website
Feb 44

22. Today the group learned what the true meaning of tight formation, large numbers of bombers and a full fighter escort.

Thirty one Forts took off this morning but some of the filthiest weather conditions over not a high altitude prevented the majority of them from bombing. Nineteen of them aborted, three of them out of the six sent by this squadron.
Twelve, including Lts Smith, Hustedt and Downey followed Major John Fitzgerald of the 532nd, to a rendezvous with 15 Forts from the 91st BG. These 27 ships, late for their escort, proceeded over the German coast alone, headed for Oschersleben.

About an hour inside Germany they were hit by more than 200 German fighters of high calibre. Major Fitzgerald had two sets of wingmen shot down. The group lost six, three from the 535th . The target bombed was Bunde, after more that 40 minutes of constant attack from enemy fighters, mostly FW190's.

MIA crews: 1st Lt Lee W. Smith, 2nd Lts Rowland H. Evans, Leonard P. Meier, Harold Kaufman; T/Sgts Harold C. Kemper, John C. Zappala, S/Sgt Lester P. Larson, Sgt Reginald C. Solway, S/Sgts Andrew F. Manning and Lawrence V. Eden.

2nd Lts Henry Hustedt, Keith S. Mauzey, Oral H. Hert, Stanley B. Inglis; Sgt Arthur R. Tell, S/Sgt Abelardo Rodruiguez, Sgts Rocco F. Russo, Vito R. Kuracina, Leslie J. Hanna and Robert C. Pingel.

2nd Lts Charles H. Downey, Donald Herdlicka, John D. Hicks, James C. Evans; S/Sgts Miller P. Chauvin, Earl E. Matheson, Earl B. Scheik, Sgt Norman E. Phillips, S/sgts Adolph V. Carini and Joseph G. Sorbino.

Sgts R. W. Smith and R. J. Powell, flying with other squadrons were each credited with an e/a damaged.

Title: Looking for info
Post by: BlauK on April 10, 2007, 02:12:55 AM

I wonder if the MACR would have time and altitude info, or some other details.
You could buy a copy of it from the archives since you now know the number.

Title: Looking for info
Post by: DREDIOCK on April 10, 2007, 07:45:50 AM

Thats a thought too.

Just as a point in subject and in case anyone just thinks Im just being morbid.
I asked all involved. mother in law, Wife, Sisters in law if they wanted to know any of this info. Asking them if they wanted to know the german pilots name when it became evident I/we might be able to narrow it down a a few german pilots if not THE german pilot that shot him down.

They were unanimous in their affirmative answer Just to have the story completed.

May seem odd enough but there is no ill felt against the German pilot whoever he is.
"He was just fighting for his country. Just like Joe was doing for ours."

Title: Looking for info
Post by: Airscrew on April 10, 2007, 08:40:48 AM

Quote

Originally posted by BlauK
I wonder if the MACR would have time and altitude info, or some other details.
You could buy a copy of it from the archives since you now know the number.

It's possible they have that information,
http://www.accident-report.com/macr.html
who knows, it could be the best $25 you've ever spent.

Quote

MACRs were created when an aircraft failed to return from a combat mission. They document all of the “known” information at the time of the loss. They most often include the aircraft number, some aircraft names, machinegun serial numbers, crew lists, mission, last know location, and eyewitness accounts. Many of the MACRs also include documents collected after the war related to the fate of the crew. They often contain captured enemy documents and statements from crewmembers after their release from POW camps. Keep in mind, there are no two alike and there may be as few as three pages to a report, or as many as fifty.

Title: Looking for info
Post by: Guppy35 on April 10, 2007, 01:31:52 PM

MACR would have all the info they gathered at the time.  MACR might have reports of other crews who saw the shoot down.

What you'd want is for the family to request the Individual Deceased Personnel File from the Army.

That would have any interviews done with the 3 guys who survived the shoot down as well as translations of any German documents attributed to that crash such as where it came down, who and how etc.  This would have all the MACR stuff in it as well.

Takes about 6 months or so for the stuff to come back once the family requests it.

I've done that for the families of a few different crews and the info in there is amazing if not a bit sobering.

381st BG history lists no name for the plane  MS-U as the codes.  Says crashed at Wiednbruck, Germany.  7 KIA 3 POW

If you want to take this as far as you can, PM me and I'll help as best I can.  having travelled the road a few times now, I can probably speed it up a bit.

Title: Looking for info
Post by: Guile on April 11, 2007, 03:29:52 PM

You can get copies of the MACR mailed to you for free from the archive at Maxwell AFB.  You obviously already have his name to submit.  The person you should email is Lynn Gamma.  Her email is

lynn.gamma@MAXWELL.AFB.MIL


I did the same thing for my grandafther in trying to look up the B-24 he was in when they ditched in the Adriatic Sea.  However, even though I got the serial number of the B-24 they ditched in, the records of the plane names from that time aren't 100% reliable, they are more like 90%.  The Army Air Force didn't record the names with the serial numbers, officially.   I am pretty sure he went down in "Lamplighter II", but I cannot cross reference the serial to the exact plane name.  It may take some detective work on your part.  Good luck.

Title: Looking for info
Post by: BlauK on April 12, 2007, 10:21:27 AM

Drediock,
please let us know how it turns out.

Title: Looking for info
Post by: DREDIOCK on April 13, 2007, 08:08:16 AM

Sorry guys. Didnt  meant o blow ya's off and I appreciate the help.
Had some side issues to concentrate on and ddint want to bury myself and get lost doing this while really needing to concentrate on that.
Which is exactly what would happen if I kept on digging LOL

I'll now be back to working on this thing this weekend
Thanks for the info and Email links
Ill pop off a note to Maxwell tonight after work. Might as well try the free route first eh?

Yes there were survivors. Thjey actually came to visit my mother in laws mother (grandmotherinlaw?)
My mother in law as only like 11 at the time and wasnt made privy to the conversation that took place.
And the only thing she (my mother in law)was told was that the plane blew up.

Beyond that she knew almost nothing and if they told her mother more then that. She never said.
Course what you tell someones mother. And what really happend may be two almost entirely different things.

Title: Looking for info
Post by: Guile on April 16, 2007, 12:14:39 AM

I got my grandfather's MACR in about 4 days.  It was about 9 pages worth.  It had the initial report, crew member reports, some investigation notes, a rough map of the ditch, and 3 crew member's accounts of what happened to the plane and crew.  One of those account's was my grandfather's.  Although it was more of a standard statement of how it all happened as he probably told an investigator who then typed it, more importantly, (to me) grandfather had signed it.  Good luck, and I hope any info you finds helps you out.  I know it sure filled in alot of the holes for me.

I find myself wanting to make a b-24 skin of his aircraft and submitting it to HTC so that I can "fly" with him in the game...