Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Nefarious on April 10, 2007, 07:08:16 PM
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Drano missed my announcement about the fact that bombers were not too leave English Airspace. (Go Feet Wet) Unfortunately for myself, I forgot to mention that in my orders as well.
But the order did stand from my announcement. And for that I have adjusted the scores to what I believe are fair and accurate.
FRAME 2 SCORES -
ALLIED
815 Points
97 Kills
87 - Single Engine Fighters Destroyed
10 - Bf 110s (G) Destroyed
Lille Flak Factory - Not Damaged
Truck Convoy Near Le Havre (A39) - Destroyed
Abbeville Airfield (A37) - Not Damaged
Cherbourg Town (A72) - Destroyed
AXIS
945 Points
109 Kills
65 - Single Engine Fighters Destroyed
18 - B24s Destroyed
19 - B26s Destroyed
7 - Mosquitoes Destroyed
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Totals going into Frame 3
Allies = 1800
Axis = 2455
Can the 347th turn this one around for the allies? We'll find out this Friday the 13th, :)
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So let me get this straight. I missed it, of course, because you failed to mention it and because of that our side gets penalized. That's just great.
Really makes me feel glad to have taken the time bro.
Nef, you've seen me put together orders for the FSOs as well as the scenarios. I hope I've shown better. Its obvious I put a little thought and a lot of time into them every time and last week was no different. You gotta know if you'd have put a rule in my orders like you put in this week's orders what happened wouldn't have happened. But becaue you forgot we get both 37's and the Flak Factory's points taken away and that even after my account of the total lack of defense at 37 for half the event. I told ya, we could have taken 37 down completely with the 2nd strike alone no problem and that's the truth. There was nobody home.
The early bomber strike there was irrelevant as it caused minimal damage. Ditto my raid on the Flak Factory as it was squashed prior to most of us dropping on it--although we did damage it somewhat. What ticks me off is, ragardless of your BBS blurb, it was a solid effort by everyone on the allied side. Great teamwork all around. But we're penalized for that while the axis side was asleep at the switch for an hour. Brilliant judgement.
If the idea of these events is to just draw a straight line from Base A to the target then why don't you just draw up orders for both sides every week in a nice neat little package and that way everybody that doesn't want to actually think about this at all can have their brand of fun. I could stay in the MA for that.
Sorry, but you had to know you'd have this coming. I'm not gonna put in that kind of effort and say nothing. If you fluffied up then you need to take ownership of that and not palm it off on the guys over here.
Drano
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It seems like Drano is the only one that didn't know about the 'no wet feet' clause.
Well, maybe the entire Allied team didn't notice either since they all read his plan ... the buffs flew the mission...and no one thought to mention it to their CIC.
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Drano all due respect, I read the the orginal setup says nothing bout feet dry, but nef does post
Update to 3 Ring Circus
Due to flight times and the T+60 Rule for Attack and Defense, i have decided that the Allied Bombers at A6 and A8 can roll anytime after T-25.
This means if your tasked to fly bombers your CIC may have you show up early.
Allied Bombers may not leave England (Feet Wet) until T+0.
Any Questions?
Granted they were not in the ords he sent ya, but you being a seasoned vet of FSO should of thought there would be something seriously wrong
with your buff's over target at alt at T+0 to T+10. How could the axis defend that.
We were assigned to the defense of a37 and a39, we launched 23, we almost instantly saw a37 flashing, we figured no way, rules had buff feet dry till T-0. Our squad and side text each other and concluded it was a glitch or a rougue single pilot, but never the less it changed our flight plan,
We flew lower faster to get to a37, just in case. And since a37 was flashing, I sent 6 guys to a39 to intercept anything, and 3 more to scout a37
We got to a37 asap, but saw no buffs,a couple of minutes later we looked up and there was nomde's group in 47's and they shredded us. to them.
Basically there has never been any scenario where buffs are over target way before any defense could be formed.
no disrespect intended, we live and learn
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No prob, Doobs. I knew it was odd and I knew the general idea was that I was supposed to be climbing in that time. I've stated that already. But I honestly didn't see that thread until after someone posted the link after the frame and otherwise didn't have anything in my possession that said I couldn't try to run what I did so I tested it out and it worked so I did it. Simple as that. I just took it as another aspect of the event I needed to factor into my routes and timing. As it was it wasn't the best bomb run ever done anyway so all the clever timing went pretty much for nought. It wasn't without risk either as the B-24's got caught on egress before they could get to friendlies as was the plan and they got badly mauled. Traded a lot of points in that gamble--that went your way. Flushing the AK's perfectly legitimate efforts at 37 later in the frame on top of that is absolutely silly.
I didn't end up hitting the factory until T+55 or so anyway. That would have been right on time and you'd agree typical of my planning if you've flown on my side where I've CO'd in the past. And Nomde's guys were supposed to be my ticket thru there! They weren't supposed to be gettin into trouble dangit! Consequently, there wasn't anyone to draw the CAP out West as was the plan, somebody got the factory flashing early and drew the CAP back in and we got snuffed. But we caused scarce damage and due to the timing of our drop whether we went feet dry early or not is a moot point I'd say. We hit the target by T+60 as was required.
Drano
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Hey it happens. We all have real lives to tend to, and being 100% on for a hobby all the time is unlikely.
Personally I'd prefer seeing the FSO have more combat for everyone. I've never been a fan of the sneaking around stuff, but hey..thats just me.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Hey it happens. We all have real lives to tend to, and being 100% on for a hobby all the time is unlikely.
Personally I'd prefer seeing the FSO have more combat for everyone. I've never been a fan of the sneaking around stuff, but hey..thats just me.
Its the immersion factor. The fog of war. I like the change of pace events bring that contain more of that. The MA is there for everything else.
Drano
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Personally, I think Drano is correct here...
The orders are distributed via email.. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to assume that a CiC regularly reads this forum - or more importantly that they have read it when you make a change. Email is a verifiable communication. The forum is an unrealiable distribution channel for material that can impact the outcome of an event.
Nef, I think you're in the wrong here. If the forum is the primary source of rules, then it needs to be tooled up to that role.
Email has ALWAYS been the final word in FSO in the past.
I think you are shirking your responsibility and blowing your mistake down to Drano. And I think it is pretty weak.
You can't just call the method of notification d'jour and expect everyone to be ready.
That having been said, I hope that in the future, you can notify the CiC's directly to ensure your intentions are understood... Because one day you're not going to have a 'Seasoned Vet' at the helm.
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Originally posted by doobs
Granted they were not in the ords he sent ya, but you being a seasoned vet of FSO should of thought there would be something seriously wrong
with your buff's over target at alt at T+0 to T+10. How could the axis defend that.
Basically there has never been any scenario where buffs are over target way before any defense could be formed.
I have to agree with this.
Sorry Drano, Maybe Nef took away a few to many points, but he was right to give a penalty.
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Why would an entire target get nullified completely? I would think that on this infraction, that any damage done by the buffs on that target would be the penalty. I can't see where the raid on 37 in the last half of the frame would be covered under that. Wouldn't that be like nullifying all aircraft kills by a particular aircraft type if it was determined that they were flying 1 less than the mandatory required?
The overall score doesn't mean a whole lot to me, so I'm not posting for that purpose. But the reasoning for nullifing all attacks on a37 does seem a bit over zealous in this case.
Wasn't there a case last FSO, where a couple of fighters jabo'd ground targets when it was specified no fighters were to attack ground targets? I may be wrong or it may have been the previous one before that, but was the entire target nullified because of the infraction?
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I'll chime in on this a bit. If you look at doobs' post you'll see that the early arrival of bombers over a37 caused the Axis to respond and come in at lower alt then they planned, caused them to split a medium size squad into 2 fighting groups and .... So the first infraction caused problems with the defense of those two targets. Lets say doobs' group had met the p47s co-alt or higher -- would a39 and a37 been as defenseless as they appeared to be at T+55 when the "second" strike package hit?
Along the same reasoning path Drano indicated his bombers got attacked on egress home. The question being is how far did those bombers drag the defenders? I'm assuming they were not attacked over the target, so they probably flew 1 to 2 sectors back towards the allied bases. Thus dragging CAP 1 to 2 sectors out of the way for the subsequent JABO attacks.
In a case like this how do you "fairly" handle the issue. Nef is attempting to handle it fairly and prescribed penalties that seem to be fair. I know it frustrates both sides when FSO rules, spirit of play, etc. are violated. But I thought FSO participation was to be an honor system. Where we as a group of disparate individuals get together to stage mock battles where the outcome is of secondary value and the primary thing is fun for the majority, if not all, participants. I'll get off my soapbox now and go hide in computer room keeping the website functioning.
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Originally posted by AKKaz
Why would an entire target get nullified completely? I would think that on this infraction, that any damage done by the buffs on that target would be the penalty. I can't see where the raid on 37 in the last half of the frame would be covered under that. Wouldn't that be like nullifying all aircraft kills by a particular aircraft type if it was determined that they were flying 1 less than the mandatory required?
I agree with AKKaz on this, and I think Sled who indicated that the penalty might be a little steep. Allies should get credit for dammage done to A37 by forces other than the bombers.
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I am a new comer to this game having only played a couple of months if that. I will throw a couple of comments anyway.
I believe that relying upon an orders change posted on forums when emailed orders were already sent is wrong. No way around that one.
Given that it happened I would do one of two things.
Option 1.
The easy way out.
Nullify damage done by the early flight. Removing damage done by later attacks is just as wrong as the original error.
Option 2
The "realistic" if less "fair" approach.
Put it down to fog of war. The axis observers didnt spot the raid coming and it snuck in unopposed prior to the drop and then got mauled on egress. This happened more often than not. Reality was that the Germans typically attacked bombers on egress after escorts were gone anyway.
To somewhat balance this approach award double kill points for bombers shot down.
Either way establish that in the future any changes to issued orders are to be valid only if done via the same method as the original AND ina timely fashion. (I would suggest a min of 1 day prior)
2 cents for what they are worth. (Theese days thats less than zero eh?)
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Originally posted by Virage
It seems like Drano is the only one that didn't know about the 'no wet feet' clause.
Well, maybe the entire Allied team didn't notice either since they all read his plan ... the buffs flew the mission...and no one thought to mention it to their CIC.
I know that the question was raised, but it was somewhere around the T-10 mark. I think the momentum of the plan was too far along to make a change at that point, but I am only guessing. I expected a discussion along these lines as a result of the decision to proceed. There should be a penalty of some kind, the question is what is fair.
Drano, the USMC met up with the Bombers returning from A37 as planned, and they had taken some damage, but they were a long way from being mauled. Kool cleared us to continue on and engage the persuing enemy fighters, which we did. I am confused as to when they got mauled. They should have had an easy return flight from what I saw. Just trying to satisfy my own curiosity here.
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I understand the appeal of the planning and stuff, I just like that stuff to be used in main events. It was kinda boring running around looking for single spits triggering radar.
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First off, I will assume the the order for "Feet Wet" conditions and T+25 take off for "Buffs only" were stated in the Frame 1 orders. If this is correct and the same T+25 rule is used in Frame 2 , why would any reasonable CiC not assume that feet wet would also come into play? If they (alllied ) had any question about where their buffs would be at T+0 they should have been inclined to ask for clarification from the admin CM.
Most if not all of the CiC's run Ops offline to plan out their missions. They seem to be able to time it very well to hit the T+60 rule.
From the axis POV:
Why would all of the axis side be wondering and calling out the "early" base flashing? Our immediate thoughts were "scouts". I believe the axis understood the feet wet parameters and would not have expected the buffs to be the cause.
Communication is always going to come into play and there is no such thing as a dumb question. If it's on your mind and raising a red flag , ask.
Just my .02
Great Job Nef
4XTCH
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The orders are distributed via email.. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to assume that a CiC regularly reads this forum - or more importantly that they have read it when you make a change. Email is a verifiable communication. The forum is an unrealiable distribution channel for material that can impact the outcome of an event.
It is in fact the CiC's job to find out all information pertaining to his or her duty in making a stratagy. That includes bbs and emails. If you failed in not reading the bbs then you are they only one who can be held accountable. That is why CiC is Commander In Chief which obviously means there is no one over your head. If you say that it is just a mistake that the buffs got feetwet early then no wonder why my defensive formations could not get to 37 early enough which should not be pardoned.
So well done Nef they broke the rule and you enforced it.
ElD66
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I went back and looked at the CM's orders to the Allied CiC's for both frame 1 and 2. In neither case was there any mention of the restriction of feet wet till T+0. The only restrictions that were listed was plane type, number, bases and bomber alt cap.
To be fair to Nef, he did submit a post to the forum on March 25th stating the feet wet restriction, the next day after posting the sides, but again it was not included in the orders for either week.
Having been a CiC many times, I can tell you that your focus narrows when writing the side orders. You make sure that you follow the general arena rules and the orders submitted by the CM's. You don't have time to research much else. You work with what is in front of you.
Should an alarm have sounded with Drano when he read the T-25 take off allowance for the buff and checked with the CM? Yes I believed he should have.
I feel there were two errors, here. Nef in not including the feet wet restriction in the orders to the CiC's, and Drano for not double checking.
Consequently, disallowing all damage done to A37 is a bit harsh. All other conditions for the frame was met. A fairer penalty would be to just disallow the bomber damage.
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Originally posted by forHIM
Along the same reasoning path Drano indicated his bombers got attacked on egress home. The question being is how far did those bombers drag the defenders? I'm assuming they were not attacked over the target, so they probably flew 1 to 2 sectors back towards the allied bases. Thus dragging CAP 1 to 2 sectors out of the way for the subsequent JABO attacks.
Can understand this if it did play a major role in the second half of the frame. But after the first strike, we waited on the ground for everyone to join up again for 15 mins to relaunch for 37. Your looking at about 70 mins passing after the infraction occurred. Also, we had "riders" along with us from that first strike, they were clear of the area way before we even launched. Now does this tell me that from that initial attack at T-00 that axis forces couldn't regroup from it for over 90 mins?
I admit, I don't see this action causing total breakdown of axis forces for 2 complete hours. But it does make me start scanning the infractions in the future and call for penalties along this line for any future frames. If penalties are going to be assessed along the lines of going broader then the those actually doing the infraction, what will be the limit?
If a defending force determines to not defend a target and take the penalty to send its forces elsewhere hoping to get more points for kills. Then under this guideline, not only should the defending points be null, but their kills/points for the entire frame be null since they shouldn't have been there to begin with. The what if's could go on for every if penalties are to be assessed by determining what if's and going beyond the actual infraction done.
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655 points? Pfffft..... Allies can cover that with our eyes closed on the final frame. Whatever the penalty is, the Axis will be wishing it was more by the time were done! :p Have fun, and Ill see you all this friday. Except for you Axis folks that is. I will see you in..... another life. :t