Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: frosty on April 11, 2007, 02:51:08 PM
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So the other day I was in a Spit XIV with 4 guys on my six. I was hauling butt, doing half mach or so at around 12K. Anyways, I discover one of the pursuers is just 400 feet off my tail, and I quickly pull up, then roll hard right with full right rudder.
My Spit XIV immediately goes into some weird sort of pseudo-stall...I'm maintaining alt, but my speed is bleeding, my stall alarm is going off, and my plane is rolling at a ridiculous rate...something between 2-3 rolls per second. So much in fact that for a few seconds I thought I had lost a wing. It ended up being very easy to recover from (and it lost the bogey).
I've tried to replicate this fast-roll manuever since and failed. Is it a glitch or something funky with that overpowered super-Spit?
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Sounds something like a high speed stall. Did you lose any altitude during this manouver?
Info regarding stalls and spis:
http://adamone.rchomepage.com/index6.htm
"Stalling at high-speed gives a more dramatic effect than at low speed.
This because the strong propeller wash causes one of the wings to stall first
that combined with the high speed produces a snaproll followed by a spiral dive.
This happens very fast causing the aircraft to dive at full throttle and unless
there's enough height for recovery, the crash will be inevitable."
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It's called a snap-roll. By the way, distances in AH are measured in yards, not feet.
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that spit14 is hard to fly...the center of gravity seems to be totally off with that heavier griffon engine, I wonder if the stalls/turns are that bad on the real one.
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Originally posted by StuB
Sounds something like a high speed stall. Did you lose any altitude during this manouver?
Minimal alt loss...maybe 1 or 2K. But that "snap roll" description sounds like what happened. I just recovered from it very quickly.
Next step is for me to learn how induce this at will.
Thanks for the info.
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Out of curiosity......
Did you have the stall limiter on or off at the time of the manouver?
Also, was combat trim enabled?
Originally posted by frosty
Minimal alt loss...maybe 1 or 2K. But that "snap roll" description sounds like what happened. I just recovered from it very quickly.
Next step is for me to learn how induce this at will.
Thanks for the info.
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Originally posted by StuB
Out of curiosity......
Did you have the stall limiter on or off at the time of the manouver?
Also, was combat trim enabled?
Funny...I was just coming back to say I just realized I've had the freaking stall limiter enabled for I don't know how long. :mad:
Weird thing is the incident in the Spit14 occurred with both the stall limiter and combat trim enabled. It at least explains why reproducing it has been so hard.
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it is a maneuver i use quite frequently in a spit. works best in mk.8, and 16.
NOT
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Originally posted by Noir
that spit14 is hard to fly...the center of gravity seems to be totally off with that heavier griffon engine, I wonder if the stalls/turns are that bad on the real one.
Something seems off with the Spitfire XIV, the torque seems far too much compared to other late war aircraft, and the flight test reports state that it could turn with a Spitfire IX IRL.
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14afdu.html (This is an early Spitfire XIV running at 18lbs boost)
TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH SPITFIRE IX
13. The tactical differences are caused chiefly by the fact that the Spitfire XIV has an engine of greater capacity and is the heavier aircraft (weighing 8,400 lbs. against 7,480 lbs. of Spitfire IX).
Range & Endurance
14. The Spitfire XIV, without a long-range tank, carries 110 gallons of fuel and 9 gallons of oil. When handled similarily, the Spitfire XIV uses fuel at about 1 1/4 times the rate of the Spitfire IX. Its endurance is therefore slightly less. Owing to its higher speed for corresponding engine settings, its range is about equal. For the same reasons, extra fuel carried in a long-range tank keeps its range about equal to that of the Spitfire IX, its endurance being slightly less.
Speeds
15. At all heights the Spitfire XIV is 30-35 mph faster in level flight. The best performance heights are similar, being just below 15,000 and between 25,000 and 32,000 ft.
Climb
16. The Spitfire XIV has a slightly better maximum climb than the Spitfire IX, having the best maximum rate of climb yet seen at this Unit. In the zoom climb the Spitfire XIV gains slightly all the way, especially if full throttle is used in the climb.
Dive
17. The Spitfire XIV will pull away from the Spitfire IX in a dive.
Turning Circle
18. The turning circles of both aircraft are identical. The Spitfire XIV appears to turn slightly better to port than it does to starbord. The warning of an approaching high speed stall is less pronounced in the case of the Spitfire Mk XIV.
Rate of Roll
19. Rate of roll is very much the same.
Search View and Rear View
20. The search view from the pilot's cockpit is good; the longer nose of the aircraft interferes with the all-round visibility, which remains the same as that of the Spitfire IX. Rear View is similar.
Sighting View and Fire Power
21. The sighting view is slightly better being 4 deg (140 m.p.h.) as against 3 1/3 deg. The two bulges at the side cause little restriction. The firepower is identical with the Spitfire IX.
Armour
22. As for the Spitfire IX
Conclusions
23. The all-round performance of the Spitfire XIV is better than the Spitfire IX at all heights. In level flight it is 25-35 m.p.h. faster and has a correspondingly greater rate of climb. Its manoeuvrability is as good as a Spitfire IX. It is easy to fly but should be handled with care when taxying and taking off.
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Fw 190 is the king of snap-rolls. One of 190's (somewhat) best asset.
The Focke Wulf was not an aircraft for the inexperienced. Hard maneuvering could, without warning, result in an incipient spin if the pilot did not have his wits about him. The spin and snap was so violent and abrupt, some pilots actually learned to use this vice to their advantage. If an enemy was on their tail, they would pull back hard on the stick, flipping the aircraft on its back and into a downward spin. Provided there was over 3,000 ft to recover, this became an almost guaranteed way to evade an enemy.
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The high torque in the Spit XIV, Typhoon and Tempest make them particularily prone to this near stall speed.
Complicating the issue is that the engines turn in the opposite direction of most, so most pilots instinctual handling of this once it occurs is exactly the opposite of what it should be.
Again due to this torque issue, these planes are also prone to flat spins near stall speed in left turn/left rudder manouvers. At slow enough speeds the torque won't allow you to drop the left wing. In fact, I've gotten a Typhoon to literally spin 180 degrees on it's axis in a slow full left rudder turn before (which completely surprised my pursuers as I spun with virtually no lateral movement and came straight back toward them). I haven't been able to duplicate that but have come close.
So, what that all means is at stall speed you get to pick your poison. Snap roll to the right or flat spin to the left.
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Originally posted by Stang
It's called a snap-roll. By the way, distances in AH are measured in yards, not feet.
You sure about this?
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LOL HE PRESSED THE SPINNING SPRAY AND PRAY BUTTON LOCATED ON THE ROOF OF THE TEMPEST >.> LOL thats awesome the thing turns slower than an elephant but can spin ooooo
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
You sure about this?
Altitudes are measured in feet. Icon distance numbers 0 through 1000 are yards. 1.0 through 6.0 are in kilometers.
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Originally posted by devild0g
LOL HE PRESSED THE SPINNING SPRAY AND PRAY BUTTON LOCATED ON THE ROOF OF THE TEMPEST >.> LOL thats awesome the thing turns slower than an elephant but can spin ooooo
True story. I was as surprised as anyone.
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Originally posted by OOZ662
Icon distance numbers 0 through 1000 are yards. 1.0 through 6.0 are in kilometers.
Are you sure about this? It makes no sense... it must be kiloyards, not kilometers.
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Originally posted by Furball
Something seems off with the Spitfire XIV, the torque seems far too much compared to other late war aircraft, and the flight test reports state that it could turn with a Spitfire IX IRL.
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14afdu.html (This is an early Spitfire XIV running at 18lbs boost)
Ours (AH2) is 18lbs boost also.
They won't give it 21lbs boost.
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Originally posted by Gianlupo
Are you sure about this? It makes no sense... it must be kiloyards, not kilometers.
Trust me, people have been scratching their heads at it for a very long time. :D You'll notice how fast it flips from 1000 to 1.0, but not instantly. You can get it to hang there. That's because 1093.61 yards is 1 kilometer.
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Originally posted by OOZ662
Trust me, people have been scratching their heads at it for a very long time. :D You'll notice how fast it flips from 1000 to 1.0, but not instantly. You can get it to hang there. That's because 1093.61 yards is 1 kilometer.
I'm confident the distance for the icon system is all yards.
The reason you see it hanging between 1000 vs 1.0 is because for enemy cons they changed the icon system to give you only approximate distances (it used to be not this way). It's not meant to be exact.
If you want to get more accurate icon distance readings then just notice what the distance counter reads when you're flying with a countryman when you go from hundreds of yards to thousands of yards separation.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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yards are over rated
spit14 is under rated
I stopped comparing its stats on gonzoville cause each time it makes me cry
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While our Spit 14 is not the ultimate one, neither is the IX or 16 (+25boost)
Anyway, sa Furbie pointed out, the 14 would turn with a 9 and the C.o.G. should have been cured.
Climbing speed also used to be slacky in AH, the RL Mk XIV would hit 20K in 5 mins, before it got boosted up.
BTW, the only WW2 warbird I have ever seen doing quite insane things on an airshow was a Grifon Spit (Duxford year 2000, 60th anniversary of the BoB). What the guy was doing I have not been able to replicate in AH.
:noid
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Originally posted by frosty
So the other day I was in a Spit XIV with 4 guys on my six. I was hauling butt, doing half mach or so at around 12K. Anyways, I discover one of the pursuers is just 400 feet off my tail, and I quickly pull up, then roll hard right with full right rudder.
My Spit XIV immediately goes into some weird sort of pseudo-stall...I'm maintaining alt, but my speed is bleeding, my stall alarm is going off, and my plane is rolling at a ridiculous rate...something between 2-3 rolls per second. So much in fact that for a few seconds I thought I had lost a wing. It ended up being very easy to recover from (and it lost the bogey).
I've tried to replicate this fast-roll manuever since and failed. Is it a glitch or something funky with that overpowered super-Spit?
I've had this happen also, but only once. Went into a spin, I couldn't recover, any input I made changed nothing. I hit "X" for the autopilot, still nothing. Turned off the autopilot and the spin slowed down and I could then recover. I did loose about 8k of alt trying to pull out of it.
Also haven't been able to duplicate the move.....
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Originally posted by MotorOil1
I've had this happen also, but only once. Went into a spin, I couldn't recover, any input I made changed nothing. I hit "X" for the autopilot, still nothing. Turned off the autopilot and the spin slowed down and I could then recover. I did loose about 8k of alt trying to pull out of it.
Also haven't been able to duplicate the move.....
The best way to recover from a spin in most aircraft is to cut throttle, drop the left wing and try to roll into it to get the nose down. Once that's accomplished you keep the nose down until you gain enough speed to recover controls.
As I mentioned above, with the Spit XIV, Typh and Temp you need to try to drop the right wing instead because the engines rotate the opposite direction of most.
With anything (except P-38's for instance), the reason to cut throttle is to overcome torque effects but they are greatly exagerated in these three planes so cutting throttle is even more critical to recovery.
BTW, I'm not suggesting you didn't know that, just using your post to put this into context.
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Spin recovery: chop throttle and as speed builds up, use RUDDER ONLY into the opposite direction of the turn.
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Originally posted by frosty
So the other day I was in a Spit XIV with 4 guys on my six. I was hauling butt, doing half mach or so at around 12K. Anyways, I discover one of the pursuers is just 400 feet off my tail, and I quickly pull up, then roll hard right with full right rudder.
My Spit XIV immediately goes into some weird sort of pseudo-stall...I'm maintaining alt, but my speed is bleeding, my stall alarm is going off, and my plane is rolling at a ridiculous rate...something between 2-3 rolls per second. So much in fact that for a few seconds I thought I had lost a wing. It ended up being very easy to recover from (and it lost the bogey).
I've tried to replicate this fast-roll manuever since and failed. Is it a glitch or something funky with that overpowered super-Spit?
what probably happened was a departure stall. what that is, is when your wing exceeds the critical angle of attack to the oncomming wind. now..understand, if you're pitched 30 degrees nose up, then the oncomming wind to the wing is going downard. on GA aircraft, i think it's about 17 degrees. assume the same for your spit. as you're flying, you're actually somewhere in the area of 8-11 degrees to the oncomming wind. now your sudden pull on the elevator, and kicking full rudder, caused the nose to jerk upward suddenly, momentarily exceeding the wing's critical angle....at this point, it can no longer create lift untill it's allowed to come back into its window. combined with the rudder, you did what sounds a lot like a snap roll. you lost the bogy because you suddenly bled speed, much faster than he could correct to follow ya. that's never worked for me in here, but i'm still learning
now bear in mind, i'm not too good in the arenas yet, but from what i read, and, using what i know from flying cessnas(and an hour in a super decathalon too), thats what it sounded like to me.
now,