Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Kweassa on April 12, 2007, 05:26:25 AM
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Those of us who were here when AH2 Beta was finally on-line, would feel an impending sensation of deja-vu. The old AH2 Beta terrain, was suffering the same responses from the gamers as the new 2.10 terrain;
"It's too dark!"
I've always wondered if the PC monitors HTC were using in their offices were perhaps much too dark. For one thing, every new screenshot in the News section, in my case, must be viewed with quite a high gamma setting with my monitor. Seeing how most everyone seems to exclaim that the new 2.10 terrain is much too dark, it seems the problem isn't on my FE alone.
Now, don't get me wrong, HT and Pyro. Despite some obvious problems, I for one, think the new terrain depiction is an overall a large step in the right direction. The sky colors are definately much better, and the sky-horizon-ground transtions also seem to be much more natural. As a matter of fact the tone and feel of the sky blue color is very close to the color settings I've suggested in the past.
Also, the depiction of individual trees are very good.
However, like many people have mentioned, the tone of the green used for the ground is way too dark, and so is the water texture.
This dark tone sort of neutralizes the various small shades and bump depictions (on a textural level) in both the water and the ground, and gives out an impression to most people that none of the light from the sun is reflected on the ground - overall, making it look like the ground is covered with dark, matte, carpet of non-reflective green paint, rather than looking like a covered with living grass.
I believe this is the reason why people are pointing out that ground-level light/shading isn't in place. If none of the mechanisms concerning how light/shading is applied to the ground has been changed with 2.10, then the only plausible explanation would be that the terrain textures are too dark to begin with.
Therefore, I suggest the following, HTC. It's a pretty straight-forward, easy fix which has been suggested before when AH2 Beta came online. I'll bet Superfly can just do it in 5 minutes or something:
1. Change the tone of the ground textures
Just up the brightness of the "green" in the ground texture about 20~30%, and change the contrast level according to it. The same thing should be done to the water textures, too.
2. The trees and shadows
The tree shadows seem to be not using real lightings, to depict highlights and shadows. I'm not too sure about this, since my test-flight was very brief... but to me, seen from the air, it seems the shadows cast by trees are just solid texture depiction, instead of real light-object-shadow depiction.
Anyhow, the shadows are much too dark, and too detailed with leaves and all, and sometimes it looks strange because the angle of the sun doesn't effect how the shadow is cast on the ground. Individual trees look good, but a group of trees with forests, are a problem because the ground looks very messy when looking from above. Would there be any way to fix this?
3. The brown roads
The road depiction looks very good from the ground, but again, the tone looks a bit too reddish-brown from my FE when in air, making it look like a reddish-brown patch of mud rather than dry dirt trail. Perhaps the "red" tone can be turned down a notch with the textures.
I'm at work right now, not to mention that I've lost access to the AHPic site, so I'll probably have to find another server provider.. but I'll try make some mock-up pics when I get back.
ps) An interesting side effect... the ground being so dark, the ack and gun fire tracer rounds look much brighter and dynamic. Perhaps something can be done with the tracer textures too.
(I'm sure you remember me throwing a tantrum about how the 'accidental by-product' of bugged tracer rounds looking much better than the normal rounds, when AH2 Beta first came out, Pyro. :) )
ps2) another small problem seems to be that the color of the dust trail a ground vehicle throws up on dirt road, is white, instead of being brown. Should be looked into, IMO.
ps3) We really need better hit sprites, guys!
ps4) I'm wondering.. is there any chance the ground textures could also be connected with a 'materials.txt' file to depict how lighting is handled on ground level?
ps5) One thing I've forgot to suggest..
How many types of ground textures can be used? Currently, the 'green' parts of the terrain is used by a single type of texture, which is all-green of same tone. If there is something that can help with realistic looks, it would be using three~four different types of textures to depict various shades of green according to terrain..
For example;
(http://www.815sqd.com/ko/bbs/table/gallery/upload/peal_havor_j.JPG)
Take a look at the following pic of IL2 terrain. Notice how the ground has some open 'dirt spots' where grass doesn't grow. This small kind of variety could help a lot to make the terrain feel less dull.
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I agree, way to dark. :D
Other than that, I think things look really nice.
Tried the Firefly offline and wow.....it's a Tiger killer for sure!
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I've tried the T-34 with the new shells.
Was able to disable a Tiger with one shot from the rear at about 1000 yards, and blew it up with the second shot. The ground war would become much more interesting for sure, especially for T-34 fans!
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The sherman is a good tank killer for sure. If the T34 now is one too then the Tiger will become a hangar queen unless its made cheaper... that would ofcoruse make the panzer useless so i dont see that happening.
Anywho... love the strong armor and firepower of the firefly. No need to spend perkies in Tiger anymore even if i have a few 1000 to spare :D
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Totally agree with Kweassa on every single thing he says...
Tex
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Agree, agree, agree and agree.
Time to put him on staff HTC!
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agreed
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I'd like to see less repetitive-ness in the beach transitions. Right now if you look down a beach you have the same "saw-toothed" pattern stretching for miles along the coast.
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The trees look farmed.
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Originally posted by Saxman
I'd like to see less repetitive-ness in the beach transitions. Right now if you look down a beach you have the same "saw-toothed" pattern stretching for miles along the coast.
Me too. AHI had this.
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Other than it being too dark I like the changes, I actually played for a while last night. Beachs look good with the tank obstacles. Now that Sherman is here I won't be in a German tank.
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yup... lots of detail steps in the right direction but the overall feel gives it a "10 years ago" look.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I've always wondered if the PC monitors HTC were using in their offices were perhaps much too dark.
Actually, you've got that backward. Our monitors are most likely more vibrant and brighter than yours. If you have an old monitor, then you are most likely seeing the effects of its old age. I recently got a new monitor here, and it was a 'day and night' difference.
I would also recommend that you play with as little ambient light as possible, as you'll get quite a bit of glare on your screen otherwise (especially if your monitor is facing a window).
Try this link below, and it should help with your monitor calibration:
Monitor Calibration (http://www.photofriday.com/calibrate.php)
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John,
You guys are doing a fan-freaking-tastic job. Keep up the great work. The game gets better all the time.
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Actually, you've got that backward. Our monitors are most likely more vibrant and brighter than yours. If you have an old monitor, then you are most likely seeing the effects of its old age. I recently got a new monitor here, and it was a 'day and night' difference.
I would also recommend that you play with as little ambient light as possible, as you'll get quite a bit of glare on your screen otherwise (especially if your monitor is facing a window).
Really?
I'm using a 19" CRT Samsung Syncmaster 909NF and its less than a year old currently.. I don't think its because of an aged monitor that I'm seeing things too dark. Also, like mentioned it's not only me who has problems with 'dark' issues.
The ambient light does make sense though.. I've got a florouscent lamp on my room ceiling which is just about behind my desk chair, perhaps I'll have to try playing AH with my room light off, but I'm kinda worried if it might play havoc with my eyesight :D
Anyhow, I appreciate you guys read this thread. I'm sure HTC will come up with a solution in no time .
ps) Oh, thx for the monitor calib. link, better try it out.
ps2) my monitor's at 7300k currently in RGB settings.. what are you guys using?
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Originally posted by Kweassa
For example;
image deleted, look up:
Take a look at the following pic of IL2 terrain. Notice how the ground has some open 'dirt spots' where grass doesn't grow. This small kind of variety could help a lot to make the terrain feel less dull.
To get this kind of 'organic-ness' you're seeing in this screenshot, the size of the tiling would have to be changed to be MUCH larger, with many more unique tiles (but all still meshing together). The tiles in AH2 are smaller and exhibit the noticeable 'repeated-ness' that others have mentioned (saw-tooth effect on shorelines, etc.). I am not sure but I would imagine that to change the actual size of the tiling in the game and on the maps would require extensive rewriting of core code, as well as render all current maps essentially unusable.
As for the terrain colors, I think that the main difference that we are seeing is that the colors are more 'washed-out' in IL-2 and some other ones (BoB springs to mind). It's VERY difficult to wash out colors without getting strange artifacting, i.e. to make it look natural. That being said, it might be good to look at desaturating parts of the terrain to wash it out a bit, especially as we sometimes have part-sun conditions where the terrain color, paired with a sunset condition would create very dark ground terrain.
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Originally posted by Saxman
I'd like to see less repetitive-ness in the beach transitions. Right now if you look down a beach you have the same "saw-toothed" pattern stretching for miles along the coast.
YES... absolutely agree.
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Kweassa shades look like that because those are just textures.i myself made trees and shadows for them.They are hard coded and do not move with the sun either.
Yes they could have blurred them out a bit.
(http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/1527/ahss17ap9.jpg)
(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8877/streeshbp7.jpg)
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Originally posted by SUPERFLY
I would also recommend that you play with as little ambient light as possible, as you'll get quite a bit of glare on your screen otherwise (especially if your monitor is facing a window).
Try this link below, and it should help with your monitor calibration:
Monitor Calibration (http://www.photofriday.com/calibrate.php)
That explains a lot. I noticed it being a little dark but not enough to bug me. However I never have an overhead light on when I'm on a computer. I've found since I have lasic it looks better that way and doesn't give me headaches..
thanks for the link
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I reset my Nvid control panel colors/brightness/contrast to defaults, did the same thing in game, and then calibrated my monitor (which is prone to flaking out and changing color temps and screen size), and things looked pretty good. I had screwed all my settings up trying to make the old terrain look better.
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I agree with Kweassa as well.
Everything seems darker and tinted to a slightly Teal color.
Everything overall looks fantastic though.
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Hey Guys!
I calibrated my monitor and found that it was way to dark.
Thanks Souperfly lol
:aok
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We'll monitor the situation, and if we see that it is causing significant problems, the terrain textures will most likely be modified.
That monitor calibration is a great tool. Some monitors come with the software or have them built in.
I am spoiled here with my monitor. It is a Samsung Syncmaster 244T widescreen monitor. It's the best looking monitor I've ever seen. :)
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Originally posted by Kweassa
ps) Oh, thx for the monitor calib. link, better try it out.
ps2) my monitor's at 7300k currently in RGB settings.. what are you guys using?
6500K gamma 2.2 and custom color profile.
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Supa I thing there is nothing to do except perhaps removing a bit of yellow of green textures (but it's a personal aesthetic opinion)
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It's to dark to play the game . All I do is hit the ground and the water !
drab green ocean draber green dirt . Way-way to dark !!
Regards CHECKERS
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(edit-> In response to Hajo)
I've been waiting for someone to say that - I've always found it to be true over the years, too.
Accurate COLOR gradiation - which is what calibration is all about - doesn't necessarily make for good game play. Sometime's it's necessary to deliberately miscalibrate to achieve an adequately playable result, where the clarity of detail YOU NEED TO SEE is definative (even exaggerated) at the expense of detail you do NOT need to see.