Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: 8903 on April 12, 2007, 01:53:20 PM
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I wish that when you pork these places it would drop ammo ,fuel, radar at that countries bases rather than doing nothing. Stop the supply line, like it did in the war.
What is the use of having these places on the map if they have no use when you blow them up?
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Uhhh it does. This is right out of the help files. If you want to read about the game click the SUPPORT button up top and then click HELP.
Strategic system
The basic categories of strategy targets in Aces High include field targets, zone targets, city targets, and supply targets.
The field targets affect availability of field items such as planes, fuel, ammo, etc. Every tower has a chalkboard displaying the field number and the current status of the field targets.
The zone targets are the factories that affect the resupply of field targets.
The city targets are the buildings within a city and they affect the resupply of the zone targets.
The supply targets are the trains, convoys, and barges that resupply damaged fields and factories.
Strategic targets
Target type Target Destroy with Downtime Effect Supplier Can be
resupplied
Field Map room 10 troops N/A Captures field N/A No
Guns 1 100 lb 2 hours Kills field ack AAA factory Yes
Radar 1 250 lb 2 hours Kills field radar in a 12.5 mile radius Radar factory Yes
Ammo 1 250 lb 2 hours Reduces bomb/rocket
loadout to zero Ammo factory Yes
Fuel 1 250 lb 2 hours Reduces maximum
allowed fuel load Fuel refinery Yes
Barracks 1 250 lb 2 hours Reduces troop loadout
to zero Training facility Yes
Fighter hangar 3 1000 lb 15 mins Disables fighters at
the field N/A No
Bomber hangar 3 1000 lb 15 mins Disables bombers at
the field N/A No
Vehicle hangar 3 1000 lb 15 mins Disables vehicles at
the field N/A No
Shore battery 4 1000 lb 15 mins Disables shore battery at the field N/A No
Town building 1 250 lb 45 mins Kills town building to
allow for field capture N/A No
Zone HQ 37 1000 lb 2 hours Kills all radar for a
country City building Yes
AAA factory 1 250 lb 3 hours Loads supplies for
field guns City building Yes
Radar factory 1 250 lb 3 hours Loads supplies for
field radar City building Yes
Ammo factory 1 250 lb 3 hours Loads supplies for
ammo at fields City building Yes
Fuel refinery 1 250 lb 3 hours Loads supplies for
fuel tanks at fields City building Yes
Training facility 1 250 lb 3 hours Loads supplies for
barracks at fields City building Yes
City City building 1 250 lb 3 hours Loads supplies for
factories and HQ City building Yes *
Supply Train 1 100 lb N/A Stops train from
resupplying destination N/A N/A
Convoy ½ 100 lb N/A Stops convoy from resupplying destination N/A N/A
Barge ½ 100 lb N/A Stops barge from
resupplying destination N/A N/A
Ships Primary ship 8 1000 lb 5 min Sinks task group,
respawns at port N/A No
Other ships 2 1000 lb 1 hour Sinks ship N/A No
Special Types Barrier N/A N/A Barrier N/A N/A
Structure 1 250 lb 45 minutes An object any country can destroy N/A No
* Each drop of convoy or train supplies on damaged city targets reduces the 3 hour downtime by 30 minutes. Each drop of player supplies reduces the downtime by 15 minutes.
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so your saying if we destroy a convoy, it screws with the supply lines? awesom
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Originally posted by FireBeta
so your saying if we destroy a convoy, it screws with the supply lines? awesom
If you destroy a convoy, you only take out that convoy. It will come back in about 15 minutes. However if you destroy a zone city it increases that time it takes for a convoy to come back.
So if you went out and bombed say a AAA factory and knocked it down to 0%. The airfields supplied by that factory take longer for the field guns to come back up, but the city associated with that factory will start to resupply the AAA factory bringing it back online unless you also take out the zone city as well. They will all respawn eventually but you can make life real difficult for the other side by hitting those targets hard.
That's what STRATEGIC bombing is all about.
Hitting the convoys, trains, barges, and local supplies at the fields such as ammo, fuel, troops, and de acking is TACTICAL interdiction. It's helpfull in the short term and in a local area but really does nothing for the overall effort of winning the war because the other bases nearby are fully up.
Take out the strat, then pork the local fields and then the enemy is in a world of hurt.
Kinda like real life huh??
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Thats what i was expecting but, i was getting conflicting reports on this. Thanks for bringing me up to speed
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The strat effect is just too short-term to really justify an organized effort, IMO.
1. Most of the vital targets are deep inside enemy territory, which makes it necessary for people to gather considerable amount of bomber pilots and escorts to successfully make it through defenses and actually bomb something.
2. However, by the time the buffs return home (provided that some of them actually do make it home) and step into a plane to enjoy the fruits of their labor, the city has already resupplied the factory and it ups shortly after.
3. So this time, the people first organize a strike to the city, and then origanize a second strike to the factory. By the time the buffs have (mairaculously) totally obliterated the city, and makes it back home, and then ups another mission headed to the factory, the city will start coming up.
4. So, miffed at this, people now organize a simulatenous strike on both the target factory and the resupp city. Whee! Let's pull out 30 pilots from a front and go up a mission that may take more than an hour to complete. By the time the buffs arrive at targets, the whole frontline is pushed back and bases are lost - pulling people out of fronts does that.
5. Despite the loss of territory, because of the damned long mission with many people in it, people rejoice at the news of enemy fuel refinery being busted to bits. Now, all you have to do is kill all the fuel bunkers in individual enemy fields, to see some real effect. By the time the mission is over, and people kill some stuff after they've returned, the strats are ready to come back up again.
6. So in the end, what did the mission accomplish? Provided a fun experience for those who don't mind hours of flight. Other than that, it contributed to the loss of your own country's fields.
There's a reason why people don't hit the strats - It's not worth it. With the manpower and coordination required to go hit strat targets, people can just up large jabo missions against undefended milkrun fields and capture them.
Unless the strat objects take record of damage received and applied over a much longer term, things won't change.
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I'm fairly new and was wondering what the hell was going on with these
Factories. Why almost everyone was ignoring them. Even when they were
just a few miles away from your own Airfield.
Does anyone know for sure if the Factory has to be down to 0% before
the penalty kicks in? Or is it a X minutes PER building thing?
For example:
Radar is down for 2 hours if destroyed. If you were to attack the Radar
Factory and destroy 10 structures (radar factories), and EACH structure
was worth 5 mintues, you would ADD 50 minutes to the 2 hour downtime
of a Radar on the Airfield.
You destroy an Airfield Radar AFTER those 10 Factories are destroyed. That
Radar then is set to rebuild at 2 hours & 50 minutes, if NOT resupplyed by
other means.
I would LOVE to see a X minute PER Factory penalty. ANY attack on
Factories/Cities/HQ would be worth it then.
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Originally posted by Eurisko
I'm fairly new and was wondering what the hell was going on with these
Factories. Why almost everyone was ignoring them. Even when they were
just a few miles away from your own Airfield.
Does anyone know for sure if the Factory has to be down to 0% before
the penalty kicks in? Or is it a X minutes PER building thing?
For example:
Radar is down for 2 hours if destroyed. If you were to attack the Radar
Factory and destroy 10 structures (radar factories), and EACH structure
was worth 5 mintues, you would ADD 50 minutes to the 2 hour downtime
of a Radar on the Airfield.
You destroy an Airfield Radar AFTER those 10 Factories are destroyed. That
Radar then is set to rebuild at 2 hours & 50 minutes, if NOT resupplyed by
other means.
I would LOVE to see a X minute PER Factory penalty. ANY attack on
Factories/Cities/HQ would be worth it then.
The strat doesn't need to be at 0% to have an effect. I'm not sure if it's a1 to 1 ratio or anything but supply of that resource to fields slows down with each bit of loss until at 0% that resource is no longer re-supplied to the fields.
It's been a while since I read the actual times but directionally the strat system works like this:
Field targets are generally down for 15 minutes.
Strat targets are down for X time (1-3 hours seems right... shorter if the city is up, longer if the city is down) and if at 0%, then those resources aren't available at the fields so if those targets are down at the fields then they are down for X time (until the strat begins to regenerate). Anything less than 0% shortens the down-time for the field targets so, for example, at 50% strat damage the field targets might be down for 1 hour if the strat is down for 2 hours.
Cities are down for 3 hours if I remember correctly. If the city is down, the strat is down, and the targets are down at the field they will be down for 3 hours or until the strat begins to regenerate.
The cities supply the strats which supply the fields.
The anomoly in all of this is that it's based on extending the downtime from a base-line down time. That means, if you hit the strat an hour before the city or vice versa you do less to extend the strats downtime than if you take both down together.
Disruption of the supply lines (i.e. convoys and trains) also delay rebuild times.
Hope that helps.
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Damaged field and city objects can be rebuilt with the successful delivery of supplies. Conceptually, the objects are being resupplied but visually they are being rebuilt. This is done by reducing the downtime by 30 minutes depending on how much of the supplies reach the destination. If only half of the supplies reach the destination, the downtime is decreased by 15 minutes.
Trains, convoys, and barges are built into the terrain. Each train, convoy, or barge has a source point and a destination point, and each can be damaged or destroyed while traveling from point to point. When a train, convoy, or barge is destroyed, they will automatically respawn every ten minutes.
Each time a train, convoy or barge spawns, it first checks to see if there has been damage to the supplier (cities supply factories and factories supply fields). The amount of supplies carried to the destination depends on the amount of damage to the supplier. If the supplier has been damaged by 50%, only one out of every six train cars or convoy trucks will carry supplies.
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Ok so maybe they need to up the times for the damage done on these fields, to be more realistic. I'm sure alot of these "whiners" will be crying about the fields not being up as fast but....so what.
The extended times would make a more structured effort to do missions to drop factories. It would help squads structure a long range buff run. Could be fun for those who like to do stuff like this, rather than jumping in a buzzard and furballin all the time. Just my thoughts.
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If a factory is destroyed, it takes TWO HOURS for the objects to return and it's a sliding scale. A field that's been captured that belongs to an enemy zone has everything down for TWO HOURS no matter what (unless you fly/drive in supplies) until you capture that zone base, which is impossible on most maps where the zone base is the HQ. I think that's good enough.
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Unless it has been changed:
When a City or Strat Factory is dropped below 50%, then it's resupply convoys are dropped to 1/6th their capacity to resupply those downrange.
Cities resupply HQ, strat factories (and other cities on old big maps).
Strat Factories resupply field, port, and base strats of ord, flak, troops, fuel.
Convoys spawn every 15 minutes. If source is above 50%, it takes off 15 minutes on rebuild time for next strat in queue at destination. If source is below 50%, it takes off 2 or 3 minutes of time at destination.
In the old maps with multiple zones, these strat targets were more accessible many times. Now, only come into play when you fight deep into enemy territory.
Also, and addition of so many troops/supply barracks makes player resupply of bases harder to stop.
Where you see a strat downtime as 2 hours.... as long as it's resupply is in intact, the actual time will be closer to 45 minutes with drone resups.
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45 minutes is the 100% everything time. 2 hours is when everything is in shambles. It's a scaled of damage to downtime after 50%, I believe.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
The strat effect is just too short-term to really justify an organized effort, IMO.
1. Most of the vital targets are deep inside enemy territory, which makes it necessary for people to gather considerable amount of bomber pilots and escorts to successfully make it through defenses and actually bomb something.
2. However, by the time the buffs return home (provided that some of them actually do make it home) and step into a plane to enjoy the fruits of their labor, the city has already resupplied the factory and it ups shortly after.
3. So this time, the people first organize a strike to the city, and then origanize a second strike to the factory. By the time the buffs have (mairaculously) totally obliterated the city, and makes it back home, and then ups another mission headed to the factory, the city will start coming up.
4. So, miffed at this, people now organize a simulatenous strike on both the target factory and the resupp city. Whee! Let's pull out 30 pilots from a front and go up a mission that may take more than an hour to complete. By the time the buffs arrive at targets, the whole frontline is pushed back and bases are lost - pulling people out of fronts does that.
5. Despite the loss of territory, because of the damned long mission with many people in it, people rejoice at the news of enemy fuel refinery being busted to bits. Now, all you have to do is kill all the fuel bunkers in individual enemy fields, to see some real effect. By the time the mission is over, and people kill some stuff after they've returned, the strats are ready to come back up again.
6. So in the end, what did the mission accomplish? Provided a fun experience for those who don't mind hours of flight. Other than that, it contributed to the loss of your own country's fields.
There's a reason why people don't hit the strats - It's not worth it. With the manpower and coordination required to go hit strat targets, people can just up large jabo missions against undefended milkrun fields and capture them.
Unless the strat objects take record of damage received and applied over a much longer term, things won't change.
great point mabee we should try doubbling the time from 2hrs to 4hrs... jmo it may get pople to want to hit the deep targets and create more fun.
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The thing is, the reality of the planes of non-fighter role in the MA, is that every 'strike' or 'bombing' initiated requires direct and immediate results in order to ever achieve intended effect.
In the MA environment, any mission which more than 10~20 people participate in, that takes more than 30 minutes from mission start to end, immediately turns out to be a double-edged sword.
Every step/phase of the territorial advance/capture is exclusively influenced by man-power alone, and thus, "more people" directly translates into "military potency" under these circumstances.
Pulling people away from the actual fighting front, and organizing a lengthy mission, leaves the military might of your forces at the particular front considerably weakened. Almost immediately, the loss of numbers begin to show, as friendly planes are pushed back and friendly airfields are turned into smoldering parking lots.
Therefore, if a large-scale strat raid really happens, the bizarre irony becomes evident in the fact that the mission actually helps the enemy win - even if the mission is successful (!)
This is why the actual practice of forming large-scale missions in the MA, remains totally confined to jabo raids exclusively. These large-scale jabo raids rarely take more than 20 minutes from mission up to mission end, and a successful raid produces immediate results that directly weakens enemy influence over the battling front - either by putting the air field out of action, or by capturing it.
This means only one thing.
There is no such thing as a true "strategic target" in the MA.
The 'stat' in the MA, is actually nothing more than a few additional conditions applied to how the tactical warfare is played out. This is understandable, as AH originally began as a simple air-to-air combat simulator, instead of the bustling real-time virtual-war we participate in nowadays.
In theory, strategic elements are responsible for tactical potency. The whole logic behind 'strategic assault' lies in the fact that by destroying enemy economy, production, logistics, and even civilian lives, one can weaken the enemy military without having to rely on simple attrition. Therefore, one may avoid the "Pyrrhic victory".
So, does a 'strategical' raid really help in the MA?
Let's assume the Rooks killed off all knit factories, killed all cities, killed all the barracks, fuel, ordnance, acks, and radar at knit fields in a miraculously successful wave of missions, within an hour's time. Does this amazing strategical raid actually help the Rooks win the war?
No. It doesn't help one bit, and this is why.
The fuels are at 75% minimum. Knits can still up plenty of planes. The ords and barracks are down, so the Knits can't advance into Rook territories or bomb down hangars. However, they can still up planes with 75% fuel, and do multiple suicidal strafing attacks at Rook fields and kill the barracks and ords. A few sorties from 4~5 suicidal and patritoic Knit players, and Rook advance is also halted.
With only 4~5 people, without having to kill any of the strats or cities, the Knits essentially achieved the same results as the Rooks have.
Whereas the Rooks had to organize some 30~40 people for hours of mission flight and destroy every factory, strat, and city on the map, all it did was halt Knit advance and make the pilots a bit frustrated due to lack of dar. Compared to that, the Knits used only 4~5 zealots, killed off barracks at Rook frontline fields, and voila.. the end result is the same. Rooks can't get Knit fields any more.
All the Knits have to do, is play some furball fun, until Rook barracks come up again. If the barracks come up, a small suicidal bravery can quickly kill them off again, and the Knits can go back to furballing fun.
In other words, strat is uselss. The worst it can do is hinder someone. The only important resource in the MA is manpower, and unless there is a way to directly effect the number of enemy planes in the air, or their potency as fightercraft, there can be no real 'strat'.
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I largely agree with Kweassa. Losing the manpower along the front actually costs the war effort however a single person working strats can be helpful at times.
I'll sometimes run an Osti out to a strat. I can take out ~60% of any strat target with an Osti. To do so it obviously has to be close to a friendly base and, being so is usually already down to, or under 60% already. This means I can go in alone and bring it to 0%.
The loss of me along the front usually has little impact to the overall war effort, but, doing this is only effective if other friendlies are working those targets at the fields and those targets are making a difference in the war effort. Without those two conditions being met my time is wasted so these instances have to be choosen carefully.
While some are very good at strat bombing most aren't. I rarely see a bomber take more that 15-25% of the target which makes this a marginal use of resources and those who fly attack planes to strats are simply a total waste.
In addition, with the older bigger maps there were several supply zones. Now we have one zone that supplys all fields in the arena. When attacking the strats now you also have to take into consideration the war effort between the other two countries and the ramifications of this. Are you simply helping one of the other countries win faster or might this help a losing side hold on a little longer as you make progress against the bigger country?
There's potentially a lot of balance involved in the decision to go after strat targets unless your side is already winning handily but then it's not really needed anyway.
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OK i can see what you all are saying, so maybe things should change and times and effects should change too. 3 pilots running a buff run can clear alot of the strat targets out and drop it alot. 3 pilots not at the front, will not hurt the war effort one bit. I say for the pilots who like to up heavys and fly, this would add a bit more fun to the game for them......JMO...