Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Halo on April 12, 2007, 09:31:58 PM
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What do you think about the Army extending Iraq and Afghanistan combat tours to 15 months, the longest since WWII?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/11/AR2007041100615.html?hpid=moreheadlines
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Wow, strange news. The first tour a family friend spent in Afghanistan was 18 months and that was almost two years ago.
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It's a result of the draw down in the military. There are only so many troops authorized and there aren't enough to go around.
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Most of the tours we see out here will still remain in the 8 to 12 month realm. My experience has been that up until now the people who get the excessively long tours tend to be support guys with hard to come by skill-sets rather than the shooters and door kickers. For instance the longest tours we've seen in the congregation to date have been done by JAG officers, electrical maintenance guys, mechanics, etc. That's not to say that 82nd Airborne 11 bravos, SF guys and even Chaplains don't occasionally get 13 month tours, but it tends to be less common.
There are a few things that some people still misunderstand about all this however. First off, most of the Regulars without family are generally eager to get over to Iraq and Afghanistan and spend as much time as they can in-country. For officers in particular, having combat experience is critical to their career, and with all the deployments if they don't get it they are going to always be the low men and women on the totem pole for several decades. Additionally, for most of the regulars, enlisted and officers, this is what they signed up for, and the majority of them are still "behind the mission" and the only thing that really discourages them is micro-management and the creeping suspicion that the war will be abandoned here at home and their efforts and the death of their buddies end up being all for naught. For them, supporting them means giving them an objective and letting them finish the job. Long or multiple deployments only really become a problem for these men and women if the stress becomes too much for them or their families (more about that in a mo')
Also please remember that all servicemen and women make much more money while they are in the field, and for the enlisted in particular this is a major incentive. For most of them, 12 months means a new Mustang or a Bass Boat when they get home. The difficulty is often trying to persuade them to invest the big chunk of cash they receive instead of blowing it on toys.
Reservists and National Guard tend to be different, they aren't or are no longer career military, and unless being reactivated meant leaving a job you hated or finally getting out of a terrible financial hole (and I know guys who fit into both categories) going to Iraq or Afghanistan is an unwelcome interruption in their lives and their real careers. Most of them see it as their duty to their country, but many are paying back the military for their education with service and a long deployment to a war zone is not appreciated. This becomes a serious problem when it involves several deployments and the dreaded "Stop Loss" (sorry, you can't get out). Inevitably when the media wants quotes from disgruntled service people, it is usually this group that provides it.
Finally, the group bar none that suffers most from long deployments are not the service men and women themselves but their families back home. Many career guys are getting out of the military simply because they realize that their marriages and children are suffering from the constant cycle of deployments and the social pressures that act to rip their homes apart. Deployments are just never easy on wives and children, and unless their marriages are strong, they are on firm ground, and they have good support, a deployment is often the catalyst for a divorce. Say "15 months" to a single guy in the military and he shrugs because he knows he can do it as easy as a year. Say "15 months" to a wife with four children and the response is unlikely to be quite as stoic - especially when her husband has only been back for a few months from the last tour.
- SEAGOO
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Most of the tours we see out here will still remain in the 8 to 12 month realm. My experience has been that …
What exactly is the nature of your experience? … if you don’t mind me asking.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Also please remember that all servicemen and women make much more money while they are in the field, and for the enlisted in particular this is a major incentive. For most of them, 12 months means a new Mustang or a Bass Boat when they get home. The difficulty is often trying to persuade them to invest the big chunk of cash they receive instead of blowing it on toys.
- SEAGOO
They may make some little bit more money ~ but it's not really enough to shrug off ~ sometimes that only means that they pay all the bills on time each payday during the deployment. Or they don't have to decide which kid gets the new pants this month (instead all three get new pants).
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My son is currently serving in Afghanistan with the 82nd. I hope this doesn't include him, but I imagine it will. When he left home to go back over, he left behind his first son who was only 3 weeks old. That boy could be 16 months old before my son gets home.
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Originally posted by Dago
My son is currently serving in Afghanistan with the 82nd. I hope this doesn't include him, but I imagine it will. When he left home to go back over, he left behind his first son who was only 3 weeks old. That boy could be 16 months old before my son gets home.
Im not super religious but
I'd like to wish Gods speed and safety to your son.
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Hi Viking,
Originally posted by Viking
What exactly is the nature of your experience? … if you don’t mind me asking.
I've been a Pastor in Fayetteville, NC since 2001. Fayetteville is where Ft. Bragg and Pope Airforce Base are located. Ft. Bragg in turn is the home to the 82nd Airborne, the Green Berets, Delta Force and bunch of other various and sundry parts of the U.S. Military. 90% of our congregation is active duty military and their dependents, and most of the rest are ex-military or retired military. At any given time half a dozen or more of our men will be in Afghanistan or Iraq (including one of my Ruling Elders at present unfortunately) while others will be TDY.
Pastoring in this town, one gets a rapid introduction to the stress being in the military puts on families, especially in times of war.
A while back the wife of a Green Beret Colonel who has served in the Army herself and been deployed during Desert Storm gave a talk to the wives in our congregation on surviving the deployment cycle: here is the link to the MP3 audio (http://www.providencepca.com/titus2/lisaburton.mp3)
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Dago,
Originally posted by Dago
My son is currently serving in Afghanistan with the 82nd. I hope this doesn't include him, but I imagine it will. When he left home to go back over, he left behind his first son who was only 3 weeks old. That boy could be 16 months old before my son gets home.
I didn't know you had a son based out here. If I can ever be of service to him or his family, please encourage him to get in touch with me. You can find my contact info at our website - http://www.providencepca.com
- SEAGOON
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Over half the KIAs are in the first three months of a tour of duty. Less than 6% occur in the last month of a tour. So while this extension will mean that some guys will get killed that should have been home, less troops will die overall.
How does replacement system work in this current war? Does the army still drop new guys in a squad to replace guys that have been killed or wounded? That was a bad system in Vietnam, as the old hands tended to ignore new guys for the first few months. Hopefully its changed by now.
I don't think warriors will mind tour extensions. However, our army is made up of citizen soldiers who are just trying to do the patriotic thing, or earn a few bucks for college.
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Glad to see ya back Seagoon... missed seeing yer post for awhile.
Did 2 tours at Bragg... been back for other things since then as well.. Bragg is a second home to me.
One day I hope to sit and hear your Sermon. I'd wait til the door to let you know it was me.
You've been very supportive through alotta things in my life and it'll never be forgotton.
Thank GOD for you being you.
Keep preachin Bud and Thank You.
Mac
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Over half the KIAs are in the first three months of a tour of duty. Less than 6% occur in the last month of a tour. So while this extension will mean that some guys will get killed that should have been home, less troops will die overall.
I'm not posting this as an affirmation of your statement, but I would like to point out that my son was wounded on both tours at the three month mark. Maybe there is something to this.
However second tour deaths and injuries of soldiers would seem to be less than they are if the casualties are supposedly based on the experiance of the service member. Many of the wounded guys I've met at BAMC while visiting Thomas were on their second or third tours. Then again as Thomas has told me many times, it's not the same war it was a couple years ago.
My oldest son Travis' first tour with the 4th ID was 12 months. Thomas' first tour with the 1st Cav was 15 months........ I'm sure the 1st Cav is looking at another 15 month tour with this announcement. They have just reached roughly the 6 month mark for this tour. I hate that for them and their families. A couple of Thomas' platoon mates wife's have been driving to BAMC from Ft Hood to watch over Thomas. They have pretty much adopted him. I hate to see their seperations from their own husbands made longer. :(
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Viking,
I've been a Pastor in Fayetteville, NC since 2001. Fayetteville is where Ft. Bragg and Pope Airforce Base are located. Ft. Bragg in turn is the home to the 82nd Airborne, the Green Berets, Delta Force and bunch of other various and sundry parts of the U.S. Military. 90% of our congregation is active duty military and their dependents, and most of the rest are ex-military or retired military. At any given time half a dozen or more of our men will be in Afghanistan or Iraq (including one of my Ruling Elders at present unfortunately) while others will be TDY.
Pastoring in this town, one gets a rapid introduction to the stress being in the military puts on families, especially in times of war.
A while back the wife of a Green Beret Colonel who has served in the Army herself and been deployed during Desert Storm gave a talk to the wives in our congregation on surviving the deployment cycle: here is the link to the MP3 audio (http://www.providencepca.com/titus2/lisaburton.mp3)
Thanks for the answer.
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One of our families with seven kids (husband is an Apache pilot in Afghanistan) was amongst several interviewed about this issue yesterday by the local news media. There was an article in the local paper (http://www.fayobserver.com/article?id=259701) this morning that doesn't mention them specifically , I'm waiting to see if the local cable news channel carries their interview. If I can find a link to it I'll post it. Most of the regulars are taking the announcement in stride, some tears, but to tell the truth nothing unexpected.
The replacement system has changed dramatically since Vietnam. Generally speaking units train, deploy, and return together rather than being sent out piecemeal. There are replacements, but its not usually the case that you'll have an absolute newbie dropped in with a bunch of guys who have been there for months. Also, please keep in mind that casualties in any unit seldom rise above between 1 and 4 in any given period. Many units will go for months with out a casualty until an IED, EFP, Sniper attack, or Accident changes everything and with them, experience only goes so far in keeping you safe. The casualties often have more to do with a bad call in the command structure. ("This road is safe to drive on" "That's enough men to sweep that village" "We have to do something" "Using Tanks makes us look bad" "We know more about the situation than the boots on the ground" "Musn't arrest the local Mullah and stir up the populace")
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Seagoon,
If MAC stops by your church, you'll recognise him. He looks like his avatar. No really he does! :D
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Originally posted by Maverick
Seagoon,
If MAC stops by your church, you'll recognise him. He looks like his avatar. No really he does! :D
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by Maverick
Seagoon,
If MAC stops by your church, you'll recognise him. He looks like his avatar. No really he does! :D
:rofl
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Seagoon,
Long deployments not just for small, special, or support units any more. 8 to 12 month tours not going be the norm for large units.
Just from Carson, 2nd BCT looks to be staying 15 or 16 months total this time, and the 3rd Hvy BCT is looking at a 15 month tour - for their THIRD Iraq Tour, with only 9 months stateside dwell time. 3rd ACR moved to Texas from here in '06, but they will be due for a tour again soon at this rate, and I'm betting a long one.
That's from one post. Over the next couple months you will be hearing about a lot of Guard and Reserve units called up for their second deployment. If they do long tours on the ground, plus up to 6 months train up time, their tours could be 2 years total.
There's talk about longer dwell time and more leave and more pays, but it's all been said before. As you've said, most career military have seen this coming since the announcement of "the surge".
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Thanks for the offer Seagoon, I will pass it on to my son and his wife. They live off Raeford Rd.
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Hi Mac,
Originally posted by Maverick
Seagoon,
If MAC stops by your church, you'll recognise him. He looks like his avatar. No really he does! :D
Thanks for the headsup Mav, I was always wondering who Bill the Cat was based on. I have however spoken to Mac on a number of occasions and usually he says more than merely >ACK< and >Phbbttt<
Hey you know as of now I believe you're the only AHer who has actually met me and vice versa (If you ever need me to for tax purposes, I can vouch that you really do live out of your personal vehicle. ;) )
Dago, please do let your son and his family know - our congregation really does try to bend over backwards to support families with deployed husbands. The F.R.G.s are nice, but they just aren't enough by themselves.
- SEAGOON
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Hey Seagoon,
I got to meet Mac twice while visiting Tulsa. That's how I know he resembles his avatar. He does have a more sophisticated vocabulary than ack or phbbbt :D
I've also met several other folks from the board, mostly from my old squad, 13th TAS both current and past mempers. I'm always interested in meeting others from the O'Club but haven't had much success in the last few months I have no idea if any are in the Lafayette LA. area where we are visiting grand kids. We just found out grandkid #7 here is a boy and is due in 4 or 5 months. We won't stick around here that long to see him arrive.