Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: toadkill on April 13, 2007, 11:10:43 PM
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Should i be expecting To be HO'd in FSO now? Or can the squad leaders encourage their men not to HO. I'd like to think that FSO is supposed to be separate from the General mundane of the MA, where people used tactics in their ACM that are frowned upon.
All i ask is that squad leaders who wish to preserve the FSO event's fun please tell you men to refrain from Ho's and Rams.
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HOing was a legitimate tactic, used commonly by the LW against bombers, and the US Navy (lookup the thatch weave).
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I HO'd some buffs. It was very nice!
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Buffs are totally different than fighters. You ALWAYS shoot back at people in buffs. But in fighters if you don't expect a HO. you generally don't shoot back. And its times like this that it is the most aggravating.
(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6671/hotardti2.jpg)
i could have killed him before he even started hitting me with his 3 second long spray. but i couldn't see his muzzle flash, or see tracers, to i held off.
NOTE: there are gondies on those wings
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But in fighters if you don't expect a HO.
Hmm, I Always expect it, so I don't go nose to nose like that. Best way to avoid the HO.
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Originally posted by ROC
Hmm, I Always expect it, so I don't go nose to nose like that. Best way to avoid the HO.
I agree but in a 109 with gondies there is not much to do, if i turn off early, hes on my 6 if he wants to be. In these situations The only feasible tactic that i can see is MAD. I guess people in this aren't the Soviets.
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I'll say this in seriousness....
I HO'd a lot of buff formations tonight, when their Jugg escort finally arrived, I flew straight through that pack too and took a few shots on my way, what I would call "high deflection shots" but what others might percieve as HO's.
In a situation like FSO I do not expect any degree of mercy. It's a kill or be killed, one life situation. It isn't the MA/DA whatever. It's a win or lose/fight or die scenario and I give and expect no quarter.
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If this is how the general public feels then, Be warned I'm gonna start Ho'ing. And if you are planning on doing it to me you better have killed me by D800 when you die.
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Don't misunderstand me Toad, I don't go looking for the HO, however, if a plane wants to fly nose to nose with me in FSO I'm not shy on the trigger either. It's not the MA where you have the chance to up another plane and issue a few insults on 200. If you see a plane nose to nose with you in the SEA, open up.
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I am a strong opponent of the HO tactic.......
In the Main Arenas.
In FSO, there are no second chances. The guy that you let go by because you are too ethical to fire in a HO merge, will be the guy who lands six kills on the Buff group you were escorting. It will happen here, believe me.
Of course, each situation has it's differences. If it's T+75 and you find a straggler who wants to fight, then, by all means, have an honorable fight. If it's the first wave of bomber escorts coming over the shores of Germany, these 20 and 30mm spud guns will be blazin'. I'm sure that the consensus will be similar.
Thank you for flying the Aces High Special Events. Thanks for your input and discussion.
:aok
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FIRST AND FOREMOST...
It takes TWO to HO.... So Toad, you were one.
Secondly, as mentioned above... HO was commonly used, and trained in some attacks.
Sorry you died that way, but the beauty of the HO is that either pilot can stop it from happening... No one has a gun to your head... well.. They do.. But you can change that and if you choose not to, you get shot.
I don't feel your pain. I would have jinked.
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Wether I am in the MA or the SEA, I always expect the HO. If you don't expect it, your playing with fire and are looking to get burned. I have very rarely been hit on a HO situation unless I am also trying to shoot. No honor gained or lost either way, but that is why I almost always avoid them. Most pilots can see a HO comming a long way off, and will take steps to avoid it. Never assume the other guy is not going to shoot.
My observation from the picture toadkill is that you attempted to fly directly under his nose. Just a hint, in case you haven't been instructed yet, it is better to fly to the right or left rather than going directly under him, and always be changing your flight direction. It is not too hard to make him miss. In fact, it is so easy, that I assume that anyone that gets shot down by a HO was flying dangerously and deserves to be shot down. In our squad, your letting your wingman down if you get shot down in a HO situation. It is looked at the same as not checking his 6, or failing to clear his 6, because now you have left your wingman alone. Ho's are too risky to play with, and we avoid them like the plague.
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Originally posted by Kurt
FIRST AND FOREMOST...
It takes TWO to HO.... So Toad, you were one.
Secondly, as mentioned above... HO was commonly used, and trained in some attacks.
Sorry you died that way, but the beauty of the HO is that either pilot can stop it from happening... No one has a gun to your head... well.. They do.. But you can change that and if you choose not to, you get shot.
I don't feel your pain. I would have jinked.
I see this statement made by noobs all to often.
It only takes 1 to fire.
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Well this is interesting, we're here having a discussion about being honorable in a war. To HO or not to HO in the FSO, that is the question. I'll answer it. If there's an enemy plane in front of my nose, I'm pulling the trigger. If that happens to be a HO, then so be it. I'm not going to look for the HO, because I don't want to deliberately give someone the chance to shoot at me. I'm not going to try to avoid the HO in a furball. If he's too darned dumb to come strait at me and not pull the trigger and he dies, then he's dead, and I won't have to fight him any more, and he won't be able to shoot down any more of my buddies, just like in real life. May I suggest to Mr. Toad or anyone else, that if you're looking for the HO, you probably won't last long anyways, so it's really not much of a threat.
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Nose to nose is going to cause an HO, there are no 2 ways about it. It's a simple fact of nature, when I see someone screaming at me straight on, I have no idea if it's toadkill or whoever on the other end of that screen, and more often than not they are going to take the shot. If I'm in a fight, and notice at the last minute that someone is going for my nose, am I to Hope he doesn't shoot or take him out first?
I'll evade first, as HOs just aren't the best tactic and if Really a Head On then a collision will occur, but I'm sure not going to base my 1 life in an event on the Assumption that a class act is flying towards me.
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Originally posted by Dream Child
Well this is interesting, we're here having a discussion about being honorable in a war. To HO or not to HO in the FSO, that is the question. I'll answer it. If there's an enemy plane in front of my nose, I'm pulling the trigger. If that happens to be a HO, then so be it. I'm not going to look for the HO, because I don't want to deliberately give someone the chance to shoot at me. I'm not going to try to avoid the HO in a furball. If he's too darned dumb to come strait at me and not pull the trigger and he dies, then he's dead, and I won't have to fight him any more, and he won't be able to shoot down any more of my buddies, just like in real life. May I suggest to Mr. Toad or anyone else, that if you're looking for the HO, you probably won't last long anyways, so it's really not much of a threat.
First off. this ISN'T war. And comparing it to war is stupid. We play this for fun, and We play in FSO to fight against the people that have been around this game longer than two weeks. The people who don't do it for the Kill. They do it for the fun of the fight, and To work together with their squadies.
And to the people instructing me how to fly. You guys said it your self that in certain situations you can be forced to go nose to nose as the safest strategy. In my situation there, it was the safest. And i was Comming up under him and trying to pull an immel (sorry never really knew how to spell that), he just happened to nose down and Ho me.
To Kurt, as Kermit says, it is only a HO if one (or more) person fires.
If any of you were to fly with me for any amount of time, you would know that I fly with very quick decisions based on the logical evaluation of my situation. And if I end up nose to nose with someone, its got the largest chance from ,my experience, that i would come out alive. And in FSO i was assuming that other squads use the understood rules that my squad still abides by.
It seems though that These rules have been thrown out the window, considering both the CO and XO of my squad's FSO division were shot down by Ho's and another pilot also was. 3 in one night.
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
I see this statement made by noobs all to often.
It only takes 1 to fire.
Right, because after 5 years, I'm a noob... Go do your homework.
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To Mr. Toad and others who feel like him, I offer this advice:
If you don't want to be involved with a HO, then you need to assume the other guy is going to shoot at you, and take evasive maneuvers in such a way that the other plane can't get a shot on you. If you're not willing to do this, then don't complain when you get shot down.
A HO is not a good tactic, unless you have better fire power and armor, and can't out maneuver the other guy. If you can't out maneuver the other guy, then it may be your only shot. On the other hand, if he was out maneuvering you, he wouldn't be face to face with you anyways. To not expect the HO shot when face to face is actually quite naive.
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Watch your mouths children. Talking about Hos like this. Don't you know people lose thier jobs by doing that?
lol
sometimes comdey helps
Vlkyrie1
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Originally posted by Dream Child
To Mr. Toad and others who feel like him, I offer this advice:
If you don't want to be involved with a HO, then you need to assume the other guy is going to shoot at you, and take evasive maneuvers in such a way that the other plane can't get a shot on you. If you're not willing to do this, then don't complain when you get shot down.
A HO is not a good tactic, unless you have better fire power and armor, and can't out maneuver the other guy. If you can't out maneuver the other guy, then it may be your only shot. On the other hand, if he was out maneuvering you, he wouldn't be face to face with you anyways. To not expect the HO shot when face to face is actually quite naive.
You are repeating what others have already said. And i have, in fact, Already stated that i was maneuvering to get behind the enemy, and that he insisted to put his guns on me NOW. and not even try to out maneuver my 109G6 with gondies in his big, slow, and unmaneuverable spit 5.
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Originally posted by Kurt
Right, because after 5 years, I'm a noob... Go do your homework.
I didn't say you were a noob.
Just because you've been playing for 5 years doesn't mean you aren't a noob, or does it? Is that my homework assignment?
I'll say it again, but this time I'll type slower.
It only takes 1 to fire.
You got that noobie? ;)
Now let's all go and play nicely with each other.
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So, lets say you're flying your Spit for over an hour on a mission, and since your butt is sore from sitting in the seat, you loosen up your harness just a little to allow yourself to adjust your position a bit. In the heat of the moment, in the expectation of immediate combat, you forget to tighten it up again. There would be no sensation quite as unnatural and un-nerving as the feeling of your feet flying off the rudder pedals, seat coming out from underneath you, and your knees hitting the panel as you pushed the stick forward, pulling -3 or -4 G's to take that HO shot.
Unfortunately, there are just some aspects of reality that can't be modeled in the game. So, I figure we get as close as we can and enjoy the game as best we can.
My two cents.
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
I didn't say you were a noob.
It only takes 1 to fire.
You got that noobie? ;)
Honestly Kermit, whatever your point is, you're not making it.
It only takes 1 to fire regardless of if one is on your six or at your twelve. Its an irrelavent remark and I don't understand what you think you are saying that negates my original post.
I made my post, you quote it and say "Yeah, noobs say that all the time". Then you make this 'only takes one to fire' remark... SO? WHAT? It also only takes one to miss.
My point is... Make them miss. Its easy.
I can't remember the last time I was killed in an H.O. unless I was also commited to the H.O. shot. As soon as I chose not to commit, I failed to get shot.
Therefore, when two were no longer commited, the whole thing failed to happen.
IT TAKES TWO.
Noobs, or vets... TWO shall be the number of the H.O. Not 1, not 3.... 4 is right out....
2
If you want to play chivalry russian roulette, then you've got no business crying when it turns out the other guy doesn't buy into your brand of chivalry...
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Originally posted by toadkill
First off. this ISN'T war. And comparing it to war is stupid. We play this for fun, and We play in FSO to fight against the people that have been around this game longer than two weeks. The people who don't do it for the Kill. They do it for the fun of the fight, and To work together with their squadies.
If it saves my squaddie, I'll HO you every time. (don't doubt my resolve)
It seems though that These rules have been thrown out the window,
and where did you read "these" rules?
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Wind, unwritten rules are hard to read. :)
Kurt, your remark to me earlier was you thinking I was calling you a noob. The point of my 2nd post was to dispute that. But let's forget that and stick to the main point of discussion.
It only takes 1 to fire on a head on to ruin the fun factor.
To save your squaddie by ho'n your opponent is cheap. I've come to the conclusion that people, even as adults will not understand that. I'm not trying to force you to fly a certain way, I'm only standing up for what I believe in when the time comes.
Not all head ons can be avoided.
If you still believe that you can avoid ALL ho's, after 5 years of AH, that says something about your thinking process.
There is a whole lot more to AH than getting a kill. I'm sure you are aware of this.
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Yes Kermit, there is no doubt that we fundamentally disagree.
I avoid H.O. at almost all times. However, if someone finds a way to sucker me into it, then shame on me. Because I know better than to do it. Once in a while I get over zealous and I commit... And as we are all well aware, thats usually no better than a 50-50% run.
The price of H.O. is extracted in game... Anything you can honestly call an H.O. (meaning that both planes set up the condition at 1500 or so out) is avoidable...
If you're going to say that H.O. is any time someone lands a shot on you while traveling the opposite direction regardless of how he ended up there, then thats where I have to call schenanigans. A nose to nose snap shot that develops during the course of a normal engagement is not an H.O. I would take that shot if I felt it would pay off.
Anyhow, the short version, in my opinion is that the only place where you should expect your opponenet to be anything other than a H.O. shooting bastage is in D.A. where you design the rules in advance.
In the M.A. and SEA, I always assume that the bad guy is going to use any opportunity. Any other assumption is a receipe for a bad day. And we all know this.
And thats my point... You can deny them the shot as long as you start with the assumption that they will take that shot. However, if you naively go in expecting any courtesy from your opponent, then the only person who goofed is the guy who died. That is the nature of game. And getting mad about it in the forum really says nothing more than "I goofed and died for it and now I'm here to complain about it."
The unhappiness of the original poster is not the fault of the guy who shot him... His unhappiness is his own. It was caused by an error in his own assumption that he could trust his opponent.
As long as people keep trying to blame their own frustrations on others, the argument will never end. Take responsibility for your successes AND your failures. Blaming your failure on the opponent is weaker than a cheap H.O.
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Very well said Kurt. :aok
Sounds like the differnece in our flying philosophies are when it comes to ho's that are setup up quickly during a furball. You will take the shot during a furball if everyone is turning and the ho was established at a very close distance like 600 or closer while I will never fire on someone unless behind their 3-9 line. Your ethics sound very good and established and that's cool. I'd much rather fight someone in the skies like you than someone that will go for the HO anytime. I agree with many things you've said in your last post.
Kurt
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I have no idea how i let this thing spiral into a big debate, and a small event of "everyone with different views of how FSO should go, stomp-on-toad-fest". But i do know its my fault, and that this whole thing wouldn't have happened had i turned away from the spit, mid-immel and let him get on my 6, where i could set him up for my squadies to get an easy kill. But i have been sick for the last few days, and I've been quite grumpy because of it and the last few weeks of crap I've been dealing with.
Gents
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Originally posted by toadkill
I have no idea how i let this thing spiral into a big debate.
:rofl
When has anyone ever brought up the great HO debate without it turning into a big debate?
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:lol
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Our squad (Chawks) and the JG11 were the first to encounter the Tiffies near A37. Wow!! what a fight. We had the slight alt advantage and took them on as best as the G2's could. After Stampf and I chased a lone tiff back over the water, it was clear that we could not catch him so I preceded to RTB to see if I could pick up what remained of my squad.
There, I encountered 2 tiffs 3 o'clock co alt. I turned , they turned towards me as well. "OH CR@P!" I'm saying to my self.
With the tiffs side by side I turned closer to the right one at my 12. Saw him open up and tried to lower the nose a bit right. Too late, he gets my oil and we collide, him taking my left wing in the process. DAMN!! was I pizzed.
But only for a minute.. see, I put myself into that situation. I was by myself and shoulda just ran for help. Thinking that a 2 v 1 in their advantage they might be conservative was wrong. He knows I've got cannons and I know he does as well. It's Kill or be Killed in FSO. HO's are a legitmate tactic and you should expect them if you go nose to nose with another player, this isnt the DA where those rules of first merge engagements can be clearly established.
just my .02
4XTCH
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4XTCH.
Ya, it was a good fight. Certainly no shortage of Tiffs. After we broke off that solo, I too tried to regroup with what was left of II/JG11. Locating Zud, we grouped up, but before making it back to A37, we ran into 4 more tiffs, and engaged again. The lead typhoon came straight at me, like a bullet train. I pushed the nose down, but too late. Yes, a collision. The Tiff went down, I sustained no damage. The wierd part was I felt bad that it happened. I could have evaded more aggressively, or not tried the deflection shot, or he could have not charged my prop like that, or also evaded more aggressively. It happens, it's always going to happen. Unless you know who is at the stick of the enemy plane, assume he's going to shoot, or at least try to. Shoot back or get out of the way.
I think the FSO is the best AHII has to offer, and the guys there are top notch, but I would never assume that the enemy won't try to kill me, any way they can.
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Dont listen to Kermit! hes much less dangerous in RED !:p
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Originally posted by Stampf
...and the guys there are top notch...
:rofl He said we're top notch!!
I knew someone cared!:D
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I dont want to reignite this "debate" I just want to subject you all to my opinion on the subject just because I can. Yes I am evil like that.
I personally think that deliberate HOs are the second lowest form of poor sportsmanship out there. Second only to vultching. It seems to be that every Niki pilot out there leaves his airfield with only one plan in mind. HO! HO!HO!HO! A little exagerated I know, but you have to admit it sure seems that way.
I do agree with Kurt that it takes two to complete a deliberate HO from range. You always have the option to turn, jink, roll or otherwise avoid that evil slime on the other side of those 20mm cannons.
I have to admit however that I have been taken down so many times by this despicable tactic that I have developed a habbit. In a looming Ho situation I will attempt a slight turn, if the enemy then turns into me then I will go for the HO and pray to the gods o war that he gets what he deserves. With luck the other fellow doesnt want to HO either and will take the opportunity to avoid it that I offered. Someday I even hope to see a Niki take that offer. (Even Moses probably wouldnt live that long, but everyone has to have a dream right?)
Snap shots that occur during a furball are completely legititamate.
All vultures should die in flames.
All of that was a long winded way of saying that however distasteful HOing may be, it IS a legitimate tactic of war.(so is vulching) Albeit a foolishly reckless one in my book.
All vultures should die in flames.
Oh...one more thought to leave you with.
All vultures should die in flames.
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Glad to see you boys decided to play nice. :)
As a member of the FSO CM Team. I can tell all of you this.
No one on the FSO Team or any CO or XO, can really do anything to stop pilots from HO's. With that in mind, you would all be well served to take action to make sure you are not the victim of one.
FYI, you can usually avoid an HO and gain angles on your opponent at the same time giving yourself an advantage.
And remember my favorite saying regarding HO's.
"One mans HO, is the other's 175deg deflection shot."
:aok
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If one of the 2 pilots is trying to avoid the head on pass then, by definition it isn't head on.
It takes both pilots to create a head on pass.
Both pilots have a shot...its head on.
If only one has it shot it isn't head on.
So if just one is manuevering to avoid then it isn't a head on.
Since it takes both pilots to create the head on complaints about it are rather silly.
Its like two guys having consensual sex and then one complaining that he has to catch.
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I was just reading this thread with general disinterest, until I saw Stampf's post and then it seemed to me that noone had raised the point that what you see on your end is not always the same as is seen on the other end.
Here is a reasonable case in point. I was in the tiff that Stampf was writing about here:
but before making it back to A37, we ran into 4 more tiffs, and engaged again. The lead typhoon came straight at me, like a bullet train. I pushed the nose down, but too late. Yes, a collision. The Tiff went down, I sustained no damage.
Let me first throw in a little background here so as to frame the kind of day I was having. I had just downloaded the new update patch. It left me with a display that looked like a cheap comic book. I couldn't even see other planes for the most part. I could see icons, guns blazing, but not the planes. At distance I could get a dot, but then it would sort of flicker in and out of vision until close and I mean close, real close.
I was in an enagement with a whole bunch of G2's and I nearly rammed 3 of them (or the same guy 3 times, who knows). It was screamingly frustrating. (Squaddies will attest to my screaming frustration). We were exiting to regroup. My wingman called that he was being closed down by a 109. He was trailing me more than 1k back. I looped over the top to clear his six.
I was again seeing an icon with occasional glimpses of an associated plane. I continued the loop looking to make a pass and continue through, down and away back in the direction of original heading. I was fast, real fast as I came down - upside down! I expected the pursuer to break, which would be my purpose achieved. Suddenly I get a call, "He's going up!" Damn, I couldn't see him, just his icon, I see fire and I am firing. I see hit sprites and I am past him. A few laggy seconds later I hear a bang and my wing is gone.
Read Stampf's view again and compare it to mine. Quite similar and yet quite different. Point of view is of huge importance as to what is seen. You just have to realise you can only control what is happening on your end and just hope some magic code transmitted over the internet helps to correlate it with the view on his end. Here is a couple of pics of the last second before passing in this incident, note the pics from his end may look entirely different:
(http://www.users.on.net/~david_moore/Images/here.JPG)
(http://www.users.on.net/~david_moore/Images/here2.JPG)
Oh, don't even bother getting me started on "rubber bullets". We know they don't exist officially, ipso-facto therefore they do not exist at all.
BTW Stampf.
Please note that all this post is about is here is an illustration that "what you see" is not necessarily always "what you get" and is not to be construed as commentary on anything else.
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Salute sir. :aok
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Looks like one of those "175deg" deflection shots to me.
IMHO, that is a clean kill in FSO.
:aok
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Mmmm it's not the point. The point is that we can actually have two completely different pictures on our monitors.
IMHO, that is a clean kill in FSO.
And that is the ironic/funny/HTC part that emphasises what I am saying. From the logs:
Stampf
22:04:10 Departed from Field #37 in a Bf 109G-2
22:34:28 Shot down a Typhoon flown by Dantoo.
23:15:51 Takes on fuel/ammo/ord at field #37.
23:36:04 Joined by ZUD as gunner/observer.
23:37:42 Bravely Bailed from damaged plane.
From the pictures you might jump to the conclusion that the 109 got shot?
The logs show the truth of it. He was undamaged and flew on to die bravely elsewhere. The tiff died.
He flew aggressively and skilfully and deserved the kill. I flew like a frustrated fool and died. The outcome was spot on.
My point is all about how what you're seeing is not necessarily "ALL" that is happening. The other guy's picture may be completely different even if he is using two eyes and not just the big one in the middle of his forehead.
You cannot know what the other guy is seeing. The closer you are together and the faster you are manouvering the less likely you are both seeing the same thing. You have to be ahead of the game if you are going to keep your head in the game.
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Dantoo, that is a great point, and one to remember.
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Originally posted by ROC
Dantoo, that is a great point, and one to remember.
Definitely. In the real world this would never happen of course but in the imperfect virtual world we inhabit in AH its unfortunately a product of everyone's constantly varying connection via the internet to the host. I'm sure that some day we'll all have super fast connections that would largely eliminate this but we're just not living in that world yet. Give it a few years and we'll all prolly be ridin the light and be a lot closer to real time than we are now.
Drano
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Originally posted by Dantoo
You cannot know what the other guy is seeing. The closer you are together and the faster you are manouvering the less likely you are both seeing the same thing. You have to be ahead of the game if you are going to keep your head in the game.
Awesome quote there Dantoo<>:aok
Ok .. I was duped... I really thought your tiff had the kill.. Only by looking at the 3 aspects of the fight can you determine who wins. Your, his and the logs.
4XTCH
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Originally posted by Dantoo
Mmmm it's not the point. The point is that we can actually have two completely different pictures on our monitors.
I understand, I was just commenting on what the pictures showed, as being a clean kill.
You are right, two pilots are going to see two different things.
:aok
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So, who wants to play chicken during the next FSO?
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Originally posted by SLED
You are right, two pilots are going to see two different things.
:aok
Right, there is that. And there is also a certain segment of the population that will TRY for the joust/HO attack just about every time they can usually because they're not well versed in how to gain an advantage otherwise. To tell ya the truth I really don't have a problem with those folks one way or another. As I see it, if you're TRYING for that shot you're giving away angles to your opponent by the bucketload. And as one of those opponent guys that's always willing to take any advantage handed my way--that's just fine by me. Just sayin.
Drano
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He flew aggressively and skilfully and deserved the kill. I flew like a frustrated fool and died. The outcome was spot on.
Thanks Dantoo but I would not say you were a fool. Certainly frustrations ran high that night and I am glad to find out after the fact that we weren't the only one's seeing (or not seeing) shimmering, disappearing planes. We thought it might have to do with the skin on the tiffs,...but I am sure it what associated with the upgrades.
I say you wern't foolish because I was indeed closing down on your wingman, and you made the proper manuever based on the three planes positions. From my point of view, when I saw you go ballistic I knew I was about to go from hunting your wingie, into a defensive two verse one situation. I could have broke low but then I would have been vulnerable to both of you. To fixate on your wingman would have meant death at the hands of your guns. Sooooo, I did what I thougt was best, and that was take the 109 verticle in an aggressive manuever of my own, knowing I could simply roll over on top and be heading right back for A37. So much for well laid plans and intentions, the speed of our closure left little room for error. After seeing the pass from "your" perspective I feel even worse now than when it happened. You could have ranted a whining storm, but instead you offered a valid and often overlooked aspect of this game. I salute you for that, and it shows well of your class act character.
Also...as an afterthought, when I stated I sustained no damage in my original post, I wasn't expecting a detailed conversation, and was generally referring to the collision. I sustained no damage as far as the damage checklist goes. I was however showing surface damage on my left wing from your hits.
Frustration, aggression, combat,...and the internet. Often makes for a messy recipe. Everyone should look at these things the way you did sir.
See ya up.
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Ho's are extreamly frustraiting. The trouble is that if there were a "code" not to shoot HO then people start to cheat into the turn or into the verticle to gain an advantage. I'll complain just a loud as anyone else when I get hit on a Ho, but it happens to you but generally there is always something you can do to get around it. But to declare that you wont ever shoot HO is a blatant lie.
Vlkyrie1
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Can someone please post a film of me ho'n them at anytime this year. Thanks.
:aok
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This was briefly mentioned early and I am certainly not a "stick" at this point, even though I have flown with the squadron for a couple of years, originally in WB.
I try to fly right or left of the HO and skid my plane at the last minute to get a version of a deflection shot and stay out of the opponents fire. This was the suggestion of veterans in our squad.
My main point though is that I have read several non-fiction books on WWII air combat (as I am sure many here have) and the HO was noted as an accepted attack tactic, vs. bomber or fighter - allied or axis, very often in those works. I have never read a negative comment about an attempted HO, successful or not, in the books I have in my collection.
So, I don't think a scarlet "HO" is necessary to put on the uniform of a pilot that uses it.
I think we will all face an HO often but we don't have to initiate it. Just my opinion.
fepper