Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on April 14, 2007, 06:43:59 AM
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first let me appologize for my previously immediately locked outburst of artists frustration. I would like to convey my point of view as best I can however so...
heres me trying not to flip out and conveying my consternation at drastic terrain changes in the latest version that have left the majority of player made skins in the game looking way to light and washed out.
This is not a matter of monitor brightness or contrast. It is a matter if interaction between existing plane artwork and the new terrain which is visible regardless of individual monitor discrepancies. therefore can be controlled only at the source: the aircraft and terrain tile textures themselves.
looking on the bright side at least I made a few p40e's to the origional AH2 dark tile brightness and contrast and they look ok. however if this terrain persists as the new standard I will have to redo every skin I have submitted because the contrast and sifference between the skins and the terrain is to much for me to tolerate if this is indeed the prefered threshold for the arena's contrast color saturation and brightness.
waffle said it himself its all relative. the skins need to be calibrated to a standard background which thus far has been the old arena tile textures themselves.
this new terrain is well detailed and well made but it is of a different style that is nostalgic of warbirds 2.0. the chaos of realism is removed and there is now order and conformity in the textures. (I love the 3d modeling my only beef is with the textures and brightness and color saturation and contrast)
I just don't know what to strive for now. I have been going so hard striving for realism with a bit of saving private ryan band of brothers coloring flare to the skins I have made recently but now I am just lost
I don't even know what looks good any more. now everything looks too washed out or to saturated.
the green is so green that it overpoweres everything and the dark is so dark well i dunno
please help I need sleep.
the terrain could be altered to match the brightness color and contrast threshold of the previous versions textures. if this could be done I would be thrilled with the new terrain
new version... the once shadowy and dark cockpits look pretty bright thought they are unchanged.
(http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/misc/aces_high/003_terr.jpg)
old version... with the bright terrain of AH2 that had been revised several times form the origional darknes that plagued it.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/screenshots/page1/p47cockpit.jpg)
old version... the sun is shining bright on the wing of this p51 and on the ground below
(http://p38fester.sitesled.com/louiv%20wing%20cockpit%20view.jpg)
new version... the ground is dark the wing of this p51 still glows creating an unrealistic discrepancy
(http://p38fester.sitesled.com/dark2.jpg)
new version.... its just sitting there cut and pasted the plane is not part of the environment it dosnt fit
(http://p38fester.sitesled.com/dark1.jpg)
old version... its there flying in the air you can see its part of the scene the sun is shining on the plane and on the land and sky behind it. all together it pull sitself off as one complete picture
(http://p38fester.sitesled.com/louiv%20back%20right%20side.jpg)
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It's looks superb Fester...Keep up the good work!
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really gorgeous skin fester, great work
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argh your missing the point it dosnt fit in the new terrain.
it only looks decent in pics showing the old terrain textures.
it was meticulously calibrated to fit in with those old terrain textures with as much contrast and color and brightness and sense of the sun reflecting on it as possible.
in this new setting it looks way to bright and washed out and devoid of contrast and color.
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I agree with you fes, the greens in the new terrain are unbearably green! Also, I can't tell where the dmn ground is because it all just blends in to this Nickelodeon goo of green!
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I never saw the big deal about the arena changes, in terrain, i thought it was pretty cool - but seeing the effect on skins i can understand the frustration of skinners caused by the new dark age.
Originally posted by Helm
It's looks superb Fester...Keep up the good work!
Originally posted by Major Biggles
really gorgeous skin fester, great work
Poor Fester... Nice comments, but i'm sure that just added to the frustration
:rofl
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Some mock-ups for the colors I see fit for my monitor. It might be a tad bit too light for some people, but I definately think that's still better than the "Darkside"...
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e171/kweassa/Sample.gif)
Another slight touch, as one might notice, is that I tried putting in a bit of different tones of green on the terrains.
I've noticed that some people were complaining the terrains are still too dull, even after they adjusted the gamma and brightness of their monitors... I think I know what they mean.
Even with much lighter tone textures, the terrain looks very uniform, almost seems like artificial grass football field, or perhaps golfing fairway. That's why used a bit of brush touch to give very slight, but noticeable differences in the tones of grass areas. I think it looks overall much better this way.
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Yeah that what was bothering me Fester, you hit it on the head, I could not figure out what seemed off when I was in a plane.
The terrain is interesting and new. It's the atmosphere that is off. It was a clear day here yesterday. The sky was light blue from about 8am until dusk. It was a clear day yesterday in the TT map at "noon" the sky was darker than it was here at twilight last night.
It just doesnt seem realistic. Now if there is some grand plan that is all godo, however it is difficult to see well when flying. Using anything but the hi res texture pack is painful.
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all I want is the old texture threshold for color and brightness and contrast back.
it could remain the two toned green for a long time as long as its a two toned green that is of the same brightness and color saturation as the previous terrain tile textures which had been tweaked so well.
does anyone remember ah2 beta? do we really have to go through all this suffering again when the reference settings for acceptable color saturation and brightness and contrast have already been established by the textures from the previous version?
changing whats in the textures and changing the 3d models is welcomed always but the already established standards for COLOR SATURATION, BRIGHTNESS and CONTRAST have already been established and must be followed for the sanity players making skins and to establish consistency in the interaction between the skins and the terrain itself.
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Citabria I agree completely. My eyes now seem to have trouble adjusting to the aircraft and terrain when in a furball. They seem like two entities of different contrast. I don't know how to explain it but maybe at 57 years of age the difference between the smaller aircraft partially framed by the dark green terrain and bland water below is hard for the eyes to adjust to. When I first saw the terrain from about 10K the first thing that came to mind was "This looks like Air Warrior II?" I went to the BBS and did calibrate my SONY 22" CRT which is a top of the line monitor. I also raised the gamma but that seemed to not help. Between the fog on NDIsles and the increased gamma viewing ths skins in contrast with the water and green terrain is not comfortable and I find myself straining to see clearly.
What depth perception in this environment has disappeard. Maybe I'm not explaining exactly what appears to be wrong imho. The technical end of setting textures I know nothing about. But what I do know is that it is a more difficult environment for the aircraft to battle in.
You're skins are incredible. I do hope HTC is listening here. I really am having a hard time adjusting. The contrasts or lack thereof aren't helping.
Hajo
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well stated argument Fester
gotta say I like the new look of the latest update but when shown the difference with the skins as you do, the old combo skins/textures do look more realistic for sure
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Good points all. I concur. Seems a bit extreme on terrain color.
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Originally posted by Fencer51
Yeah that what was bothering me Fester, you hit it on the head, I could not figure out what seemed off when I was in a plane.
The terrain is interesting and new. It's the atmosphere that is off. It was a clear day here yesterday. The sky was light blue from about 8am until dusk. It was a clear day yesterday in the TT map at "noon" the sky was darker than it was here at twilight last night.
It just doesnt seem realistic. Now if there is some grand plan that is all godo, however it is difficult to see well when flying. Using anything but the hi res texture pack is painful.
I noticed some odd shadowing last night. The sun was low in the west, and while banking a Boston, I switched to the external view. The upper surfaces facing the sun were darker than the lower surfaces, which were much brighter, even though they should have been quite dark.
I spent a good 30 minutes playing with monitor settings (Viewsonic LCD) and gamma to get what I consider acceptable lighting. I don't care for the absolute lack of texture to the ground (not including trees, but the grass or meadow). This creates the appearance of a pool table top, rather than the earth.
As Fester says, the skins have an unusual, washed-out glow, regardless of whether I run at 512 or 1024.
There's much work to be done to get to where we were before the update, which, I suspect, is why the "comprehensive" patch is taking a while.
Also, seas and ponds are too grey, they need a touch more dark blue
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
I don't care for the absolute lack of texture to the ground (not including trees, but the grass or meadow). This creates the appearance of a pool table top, rather than the earth.
Exactly the way i feel. Overall i think the new terrain patch is great and the new trees, hedgerows, beaches, and new detials at airfields and v-bases are all excellent.
You can see a major difference on the last two pictures posted by fester, and by looking at them, you would think that the old and new terrains are opposite.
I'd like to see different shades of green on some of the tiles to add some depth near hills and mountains, and also the farm tiles again which looked fantastic.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Some mock-ups for the colors I see fit for my monitor. It might be a tad bit too light for some people, but I definately think that's still better than the "Darkside"...
Another slight touch, as one might notice, is that I tried putting in a bit of different tones of green on the terrains.
I've noticed that some people were complaining the terrains are still too dull, even after they adjusted the gamma and brightness of their monitors... I think I know what they mean.
Even with much lighter tone textures, the terrain looks very uniform, almost seems like artificial grass football field, or perhaps golfing fairway. That's why used a bit of brush touch to give very slight, but noticeable differences in the tones of grass areas. I think it looks overall much better this way.
unfortunately, to get that "brushed touch" your talking about I think it would require a crap load of new tiles as well as a super computer to be able to pop them up fast enough not to cause stuttering.
I agree that the existing tiles should be lighten and the contrast adjusted to get them more in line with the way it was. Hate to see all Fester work drive him nuts :D
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I don't see a big difference between the old and new. I like the look of the new terrain.
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Originally posted by SuperDud
I don't see a big difference between the old and new. I like the look of the new terrain.
how can you miss it, its like black is to white....
the pool table constant green should differ a bit too, browner patches of grass, the odd field boundaries etc.. even on the standard green tile. AH world needs population also... like little villages or something
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Originally posted by Anyone
how can you miss it, its like black is to white....
Hehe, that's the joy of the PC world. No two computers are the same. :)
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http://www.dday04.com/recherche.php
http://www.dday04.com/diapo.php?ville=111
http://www.jbiphoto.com/Paysages/Normandie_vue_du_ciel/index-La%20Normandie_vue_du_ciel.htm
http://www.giteducolombier.com/lequesnay/album_aero.php
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Hehe, that's the joy of the PC world. No two computers are the same. :)
Yup, mine looks great! I can understand seeing some of the pics on here. But on my PC everything is pretty bright, looks real nice.
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Man...looking at the old and new side by side, I'd prefer to have the old back. This new stuff just doesnt look good. I thought it may be my end, but seeing what folks have posted I see they have the same view.
Its got the same darkness now that to it WW2OL has had. I know it must be disappointing to them, but somebody should have said something about this during testing.
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Well the question is, where is HTC and what are they going to do? Leave it as it is, or go back to the old? On my end everything looks great. Like a few others said, I can see the difference between the pictures Fester posted, but honestly to me its not that big of a difference to really demand a change, but then again I'm not puting all the time in doing the skins either.
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Fester bear with the changes. This was a pretty drastic change to the terrain effects they made, and I'm sure they will tweak it so the colors match better. It's far too dark now, and I'd be shocked if the colors aren't adjusted even in the patch they're working on.
Right, Waffle?
;)
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I don't mind the new terrain coloring so much, it looks like a very well watered Ireland. Maybe a little lighter would be better just enough where you can have a little depth perception. The sheep stand out well.
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I think a lot of it is going to come down to real terrain artists laying out the terrains. I suspect the current terrains got run through a "converter" which replaced the old textures with the new. Thats never going to look as good as a terrain which is lovingly laid down tile by tile.
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Originally posted by PK1Mw
Well the question is, where is HTC and what are they going to do? Leave it as it is, or go back to the old?
The groundwork is layed (Literally) for the new terrain, so going back i don't think is an option.
I'm betting they'll release a few more patches with the tweaks that make this one much better than old one we're all used to.
IMO once it's a little brighter, and we're able to see that the ground isn't all solid green, it will look finished.
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Citabria
Plane skins aside and only speaking for the terrain itself.
Would you agree that part of the problem with the terrain "carpet" or "Pool table" effect is the lack of some subtle shadowing marking terrain elevation differences. (smaller rolling hills) and such.
The shadowing seems perfect when your in a GV Thus my claim that in the ground the terrains look fantastic.
They just dont seem to be present when your airborn thus giving that carpet effect.
Next the Water. Looks almost muddy, like churned water near the shoreline just beyond the waves
Seem the new water color would be better if used as a line right next to the breaking waves. then getting progressively more blue and darker the farther out to sea you go
BTW (and slightly off topic)I miss that tropical map you did a couple versions ago.
IMO it was the most visually stunning of all the maps we've ever had.
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THere are no grass clumps! I think it would be helpful if there were grass clumps to help give the terrain a slight texture!
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anyone been to the training arena since the new version?
the suns shining on some tiles :D
(http://p38fester.sitesled.com/trainingarena1.jpg)
(http://p38fester.sitesled.com/trainingarena2.jpg)
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Fester, check your PMs :)
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Always the nicest part of AH was it was nice and bright out day time . Alot of games are not .
Could we please have the " nice and bright out day time" back again .
I don't need more of DAoC , WW2OnLine dark gameness :cry