Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Larry on April 14, 2007, 08:50:11 AM
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Tigers need to be lessed perked if a serman can kill you from 2k out with one hit. I know the serman has crappy armor and you can kill them easy but its gun is to par with the tigers 88mm.
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Bring the PANTHER to AH!
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i want them to perk the sherman 5-10perks...you would still see shermans but not as many
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Panther is a PzKpfw V and Tiger is PzKpfw VI. Tiger has a better gun and better armor on most spots.
Edit: I would have said perk the serman but because its armor is so thin even 5 perks would be to much. Tiger mabey around 20 would be good.
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I've always heard that the Panther's 75mm has better performance
than the Tiger's 88mm. Not that it would matter all that much to the poor
guy in the Sherman. :aok
Also the numbers don't mean all that much. The Tiger was deployed
months before the Panther.
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i have had them take more than one shot from a tigr at 1500 in the front armor
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Panther was the V, but it actually came out after the Tiger VI.
The Panthers 75mm had a higher velocity, greater penetration, more range, and accuracy than the Tiger's 88mm. That's a fact.
The Panther also had sloped armor which deflected shells and stood up to just as much if not more punishment than the Tiger did.
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last night me and a couple of squdies up tigers to defend a v base.Each time they died to 1 shots from panzers and tigers.The new terrain didnt help with depth perception,but neither did the shells being stoped buy invisable trees and hills which still are there.
Also the n m e tanks were fireing through trees and buildings with ease
but we couldn't.
Something needs to be done.
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Bring the British Comet to the game.
Fitted with a 75lb field gun :) .
Never even knew about them until a program about some guys who were restoring one.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Bring the British Comet to the game.
Fitted with a 75lb field gun :) .
Never even knew about them until a program about some guys who were restoring one.
Comet had a modified 17lber....a little lower muzzle velocity then the one on the firefly. It was basically a redesigned Challenger {which was upgunned Cromwell}......
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The Firefly 17lbr gun is more powerful than the Tiger I 88mm - and so its the most powerful tank gun in AH. Funny how that rare variant is the Sherman that made it into AH first...
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What about "Der Elefant" with the new and much improved 88's? sure it didnt move well but it had the "super 88" and 200mm armor. It was known for being able to smack T34's over 3 miles away. It would be the weapon of choice for the spawn campers.
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Of the Tiger I and the Panther, I believe the Panther was the better tank.
Sloped armor.
Better HV main gun
Cheaper to build
ETA: What do you guys mean by "perk?"
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Play the game and see for yourself... Vehicles that perform well enough to unbalance gameplay have a cost.
The cost is determined by ENY values, which you can see in the hangar.. these ENY values equate how many perk points you get for a shooting down a given vehicle in a specific vehicle. OBJ values are used to number how many points you get for destroying objects (Hangars, Ships, AAA, etc.)
Perk points are the currency for that "cost".. hence 'perked' vehicles.
You then get the total points earned in a sortie multiplied by either 1 for dying, ditching, or bailing, 1.25 for landing, and 1.5 for landing on a CV.
And lastly, there is a perk multiplier for each country, that varies inversely with the population of the country relative to the others'.
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Ahhh. I just play the game and haven't really looked into all that extra stuff.
Thanks for the info.
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Originally posted by Larry
Tigers need to be lessed perked if a serman can kill you from 2k out with one hit. I know the serman has crappy armor and you can kill them easy but its gun is to par with the tigers 88mm.
Only if they perk the La-7 & spit 16 with it.
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
Only if they perk the La-7 & spit 16 with it.
SpitXVI and La7s dont need to be perked. Tigers perks need to be less if they can be killed so easly. If this was just a fluke then it happens but if its not then something should be done.
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Its simple who wants to pay for something that can be killed in one shot from an un-perked GV ?
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Originally posted by Husky01
Its simple who wants to pay for something that can be killed in one shot from an un-perked GV ?
Kinda I can see if it was less then 800 out but from 2k away I dont want to risk what little perks I have on it. It would be like flying a Me262 and being shot down from 2k out from buffs.
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Lol..you aren't getting killed by a Firefly if you're in a Tiger from 2k out from the front. Trust me; if you doubt it, holler and I'll let you shoot at me a bit while I go make a pizza.
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Originally posted by Warspawn
Lol..you aren't getting killed by a Firefly if you're in a Tiger from 2k out from the front. Trust me; if you doubt it, holler and I'll let you shoot at me a bit while I go make a pizza.
Well it happened. I watched the shell exit the serman, fly over to me and ping back in the tower.
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Does the Shermie really have crappy armor?
I spot a M4 from way out, landed about 4 rounds which all ricocheted off from the frontal armor. Okay, it's frontal armor, didn't really expect to penetrate. So I try to outflank it, land 2 rounds from the side.. smoked his engine. But that was about it. Again and again, hitting from the side, at 800yds distance, additional HVAP just doesn't seem to register despite the 'hit' sprite, and bam, the Sherm turns the turret to me, and I'm dead.
I've killed Tigers with the HVAP ammo from some 1000yds out, but against the Sherm, nothing much can do...
Gotta say, of all the Sherms in the world, why did we have to end up with something like this?
I hope HTC would add in an additional T-34/85, so we can at least even out the odds 50-50 to the Sherm. Either that, or perk the whoopeeed thing.
As it is the Tigers are now useless crap, and no one has any reason to up something else than the M4. Who'd up a Panzer or a T-34 anyway, when there's a one-shot Tiger busting free tank that moves fast, fast turret travel, and even has pintle gun?
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Does the Shermie really have crappy armor?
I spot a M4 from way out, landed about 4 rounds which all ricocheted off from the frontal armor. Okay, it's frontal armor, didn't really expect to penetrate. So I try to outflank it, land 2 rounds from the side.. smoked his engine. But that was about it. Again and again, hitting from the side, at 800yds distance, additional HVAP just doesn't seem to register despite the 'hit' sprite, and bam, the Sherm turns the turret to me, and I'm dead.
I've killed Tigers with the HVAP ammo from some 1000yds out, but against the Sherm, nothing much can do...
Gotta say, of all the Sherms in the world, why did we have to end up with something like this?
I hope HTC would add in an additional T-34/85, so we can at least even out the odds 50-50 to the Sherm. Either that, or perk the whoopeeed thing.
As it is the Tigers are now useless crap, and no one has any reason to up something else than the M4. Who'd up a Panzer or a T-34 anyway, when there's a one-shot Tiger busting free tank that moves fast, fast turret travel, and even has pintle gun?
Kweassa go here (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=203114) it shows all info about our four main tanks.
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The Firefly Sherman's gun in WWII was a fantastic main gun but it just seems as though HTC's Firefly is all that and more.
The Tiger has lost much of its luster now.
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Originally posted by Wobblin-Goblin
The Firefly Sherman's gun in WWII was a fantastic main gun but it just seems as though HTC's Firefly is all that and more.
The Tiger has lost much of its luster now.
Awwwwwww:(
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
Only if they perk the La-7 & spit 16 with it.
Those are easy to kill, it is the pilot that matters.
With GV's it is different and it sucks losing Tigers to one shot from 1800 yards to a Panzer or losing them to 2 or 3 shots from a field gun....
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i now shall snicker at all the people who said the m4 was useless and would be an easy target in this game. :p
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Originally posted by Flame 2 the boy
i now shall snicker at all the people who said the m4 was useless and would be an easy target in this game. :p
Umm it its but the firefly isnt a regular M4. Its the gun that kills, the armor sucks. Its pretty much who can get a hit first is the one that wins.
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Originally posted by Larry
Umm it its but the firefly isnt a regular M4. Its the gun that kills, the armor sucks. Its pretty much who can get a hit first is the one that wins.
Seems like some don't like the playing field being level.........
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
Seems like some don't like the playing field being level.........
If its level then why not unperk the tiger?
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Umm it its but the firefly isnt a regular M4. Its the gun that kills, the armor sucks. Its pretty much who can get a hit first is the one that wins.
The important thing here is, with the castration of the Tiger by 17lbs guns, and the addition of HVAP rounds for T-34s, effectively every GV in the game now 'sucks' in the armor category.
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I bet the tiger crews wished for perked fireflys:noid
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Originally posted by SAS_KID
I bet the tiger crews wished for perked fireflys:noid
:rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by SAS_KID
I bet the tiger crews wished for perked fireflys:noid
In a recent interview a former Tiger crewmember was telling of how he felt so sorry for men in the sherman tanks because if they were seen the Tiger would destroy them effectively at 1500 meters and more with one shot.The Tiger crew's were dead on accurate.
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I'm confused why everyone keeps calling the Firefly armor bad. I can only kill one with T34 HVAP at point blank range, and then only with hits to the rear or to the rounded part of the frontal armor. Hits to the sloped front armor, turret, or tracks do nothing even at point blank range. At medium to long range they are entirely immune to T34s AP or HVAP. The HVAP works better against the Tiger than it does against the Firefly.
(I'm talking about AH Firefly.. not RL)
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Originally posted by 715
I'm confused why everyone keeps calling the Firefly armor bad. I can only kill one with T34 HVAP at point blank range, and then only with hits to the rear or to the rounded part of the frontal armor. Hits to the sloped front armor, turret, or tracks do nothing even at point blank range. At medium to long range they are entirely immune to T34s AP or HVAP. The HVAP works better against the Tiger than it does against the Firefly.
(I'm talking about AH Firefly.. not RL)
That happens by a thing, is not that the Sherman has better armor than the tiger, is because all the tanks except sherman are below their real power, perhaps sherman has main gun like to the tiger, but the armor is not it.
Today, got a tiger and only with 2 hits from at less 2k and go to tower, 1 on the front and 1 on the back thats a joke, in the same run I hit twice a Sherman on turret with the tiger after that 1 rook hited once with Sherman... I got assist
It is question to lower the points to the tiger or to put Sherman to him, this situation cannot continue.
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Originally posted by 68slayr
i want them to perk the sherman 5-10perks...you would still see shermans but not as many
ya thats what every 1 wanted when the spit16 came out.
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They wont perk the M4, but they will lower the perk price on the Tiger just like they adjusted prices for planes like the -4 Hog and Ta152.
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Something i have noticed is that it takes 3 rounds to take down a town building.
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Originally posted by 715
I'm confused why everyone keeps calling the Firefly armor bad. I can only kill one with T34 HVAP at point blank range, and then only with hits to the rear or to the rounded part of the frontal armor. Hits to the sloped front armor, turret, or tracks do nothing even at point blank range. At medium to long range they are entirely immune to T34s AP or HVAP. The HVAP works better against the Tiger than it does against the Firefly.
(I'm talking about AH Firefly.. not RL)
I havnt problems with penetration firefly's armor, but it just dont die from 1 or even 2 hits from panzer or t-34. I hit one three times with HVAP from ~500m in frontal hull, all rounds penetrated armor, but he survived :rolleyes:
Looks like only firefly itself and tiger can kill fireflies easy.
Needless to say, ~95% tanks in TT are M4s.
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Sherman armor.
Hull Front:
M4A4 front armor shouldnt bee too weak if you hit it on the clean sloped parts - in that case it would be like T34 armor about 50mm sloped nicely.
However it does have the very vertical areas around the drivers hatches which were both vertical and shot traps. Does HTC make this area weaker?
The three piece bolted transmission cover was a weak point on Shermans so equipped.
Hull sides:
These should be ridiculously weak - about 40mm at 90 degrees vertical. A bit thicker around the applique armor areas. If AH shermans are tough on the sides then something clearly is wrong.
Turret:
Front and side armor is unremarkable. Similar to T34/76.
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End result of all our observations.
Un-perk the Tiger & lower the eny value on the Panzer and the problem is solved. The Firefly is new so I bet you guy's will adjust just fine.
I think the Firefly offset the heavy tank ratio nicely. I would start asking for some Japanese or other field pieces. Now that would be cool!
MGD
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Unperking tiger would be the last nail in t-34's and panzer's coffins. Either perk firefly or weaken it.
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I still don't understand..
During combined ops with Air and Ground assault, the Shermans are meat. I mean...even the Yak 9T's and IL's are shredding shermies. While Tigers can withstand tons of ord.
I hit 'close' to a sherman today in my IL2 with my ord and killed it. I dropped a 500lb bomb from an A20 later on top of a tiger and didn't dent it.
Tigers are way tougher than Shermans...
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Originally posted by Oleg
Unperking tiger would be the last nail in t-34's and panzer's coffins. Either perk firefly or weaken it.
Agreed.
Why bother with a Panzer or T34 if you can take a Tiger for free?
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Originally posted by Imoutfishing
End result of all our observations.
Un-perk the Tiger & lower the eny value on the Panzer and the problem is solved.
MGD
If there are no Tigers to spend your perks on, the lower (I think you really mean "higher") ENY of the panzer would be irrelevant.
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
In a recent interview a former Tiger crewmember was telling of how he felt so sorry for men in the sherman tanks because if they were seen the Tiger would destroy them effectively at 1500 meters and more with one shot.The Tiger crew's were dead on accurate.
1500 is a minimum.
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Originally posted by Xasthur
Agreed.
Why bother with a Panzer or T34 if you can take a FIREFLY for free?
What about that?
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
1500 is a minimum.
Oh yea.
If it was a Konig's Tiger 2,000 is the minimum.
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Rock, paper, or ap rounds
Ok here it is,
Panzers with a higher eny value would result in more perks per kill.
Un-perked Tigers would off set the T-34's armour.
M-4 would off set the Tigers armour.
T-34 would off set everything everything.... just a bit slower.
I see a fair fight. It seems simple to me.
MGD
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Originally posted by Imoutfishing
Rock, paper, or ap rounds
Ok here it is,
Panzers with a higher eny value would result in more perks per kill.
Un-perked Tigers would off set the T-34's armour.
And what would you do with that perks you gain in Panzer when the Tiger is un-perked? ;)
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I see 5 perk tigers sooooooon.
Bronk
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5 perk Firefly would be better :noid
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5 perk sermans and 20-25 perk tiger
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I think all that needs doing is for HT to look at the armour on the Sherman.
It seems a little tough compared to what you read about them.
I've actually found it harder to pop a Shermans turret with an IL2 than a Panzers.
Funnily enough most of the time it isn't the turret that goes but one of the tracks.
Of course a bug might have also crept in during the changes in this version, from the README -
Reviewed and revised modeling of various tank guns including penetration, damage, rate of fire, velocity, projectile weight, etc.
Modified the effects of obliquity on armor penetration so that it has slightly less effect on penetration
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Serman VC Firefly
Turret Front 3"
Turret Sides 2"
Turret Rear 50.8mm
Turret Top 25.4mm
Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf H
Turret Front 2"
Turret Sides 1.2"
Turret Rear 30mm
Turret Top 16mm
I think the roundness and thickness of the serman makes it harder to shoot with a IL2. In tanks I dont even aim at the turret anymore any hit on the hull is a sure kill.
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The Tiger's perk value did go down by 40% as soon as the new version was out.
I expect that the Firefly will become a low level perk. I would have introduced it that way if it came out with the 75mm and 76mm Shermans but this is all we had.
I've been looking into reports about how tough Shermans and I don't see it. I've done a lot of different armor tests and have not found anything to make me think this is a tough tank to kill.
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Stuka with 1800kg bomb works on everything.,:p
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Originally posted by Pyro
I've been looking into reports about how tough Shermans and I don't see it. I've done a lot of different armor tests and have not found anything to make me think this is a tough tank to kill.
I've played a fair amount of 8 man GV lately and can honestly say the Firefly Sherman is harder to crack than I would have figured. No empirical evidence, just a seat of the pants observation. It is obviously easier to take out by flanking and popping the sides, but the frontal armor seems more tough than it should be.
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Originally posted by Pyro
I would have introduced it that way if it came out with the 75mm and 76mm Shermans but this is all we had.
Not many choices? Not enough info?Not enough Data?
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Originally posted by Wobblin-Goblin
I've played a fair amount of 8 man GV lately and can honestly say the Firefly Sherman is harder to crack than I would have figured. No empirical evidence, just a seat of the pants observation. It is obviously easier to take out by flanking and popping the sides, but the frontal armor seems more tough than it should be.
Not to pick on you particularly, but a lot of people here keep saying they "feel" or "believe" the Sherman is too tough.
Pyro and HTC are using real life data.
Reputation vs. reality.
Reputation of the Sherman was that it was poorly armored. The reality is that the armor was better than advertised. It wasn't "great", but it wasn't as paper-thin as many would have you believe.
Before saying the armor of this or that tank is too tough, I would say the Tiger's gun seems a bit weaker than before. On a couple occasions I have had hit sprites on panzers at close range from my Tiger (4-800), and they continued merrily on their way. Pre-2.10, they would have been instant toast. But, that could have just as much with the refinement of the damage model as any tweaking of the 88 -- just need to learn where to aim rather than the old situation where a hit was almost always a kill regardless of placement.
I have not noticed similar "weakening" (if there is any) of the Panzer or T-34, but I tend to aim more carefully with those, so my latter comment is the more likely true one.
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Originally posted by Sweet2th
Not many choices? Not enough info?Not enough Data?
I would imagine not enough time . . . skinning, balistics modeling, etc. all different despite the similar chassis. I, for one, am happy to have a new tank. If more come later . . . well, lets just say :D :D :D .
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Originally posted by E25280
Not to pick on you particularly, but a lot of people here keep saying they "feel" or "believe" the Sherman is too tough.
Pyro and HTC are using real life data.
Reputation vs. reality.
Reputation of the Sherman was that it was poorly armored. The reality is that the armor was better than advertised. It wasn't "great", but it wasn't as paper-thin as many would have you believe.
All I can say is that before the 2.10, a hit by a Tiger, a single hit, would cause the recipient (T-34, Panzer IV, etc) to make an unscheduled trip back to the hangar. Now, with the addition of the Firefly Sherman, a single hit by a Tiger generally won't stop the Sherman if the hit is in the frontal armor. This seems to be in direct conflict with the material I've read about Shermans. Even with the updated gun, the British Firefly Sherman wasn't any better at stopping incoming rounds than the American Sherman with the wimpy 75mm gun. The Firefly just had a competent gun whereas the American Sherman didn't.
This is not reflected in the gameplay I've experienced since 2.10. BTW, I think 2.10 is much better all-around than 2.09 patch (whatever).
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Originally posted by Pyro
I've done a lot of different armor tests and have not found anything to make me think this is a tough tank to kill.
Take a look to my film, please. I hit Firefly 4 times in front hull with HVAP ammo (all penetrated) before he was dead finally. May be i shoot in wrong place?
t34_vs_M4 (http://www.okondr.mail333.com/t34_vs_M4.ahf)
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Do you see that dark spot to the upper left where you were hiting thats where I aim and get one shot kills but I also drive pnzrs not T34s. Dont know if the HVAPs work like pnzr APs.
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I can kill Shermans with the T34 HVAP, at point blank range, by hitting the vertical part of the curved lower hull frontal armor. Hitting the sloped part is useless. One hit to the curved part, if centered and reasonably perpendicular, will kill the Sherman.
Other soft spots for single hit kills at short range: the rear and the top side of the hull. (To do that you obviously have to be behind or to the side, not somewhere easy to get to and live.) The turret is immune to T34s, I no longer waste time aiming at them.
At long range, >1000 say, give up. It might as well be a Tiger. You might get lucky and penetrate the armor but it's going to take many hits to kill and one shell from the Sherman will vaporize you.
How I long for a T34-85.
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Originally posted by Pyro
The Tiger's perk value did go down by 40% as soon as the new version was out.
I expect that the Firefly will become a low level perk. I would have introduced it that way if it came out with the 75mm and 76mm Shermans but this is all we had.
I've been looking into reports about how tough Shermans and I don't see it. I've done a lot of different armor tests and have not found anything to make me think this is a tough tank to kill.
I upped a PZIV to check out the smoke vs the M4 (absolutely the same effect). I killed every M4 I hit with 1 shot at ranges from 800-1600 on all aspects.
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I had hoped from the beginning that we would have a light perk (5-10) on the FF. I think the performance warrants the perk. I would hope that this will limit the use of the FF, and give us the variety of GV's back on the battlefield. Currently you see 95% FF's.
Along with this, hopefully this will open the door for the 75mm M4. I would like to see the M4 (75mm) vs. the PanzerIV. This might also bring in the T34/85 as an equal combatant to the FF.
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Originally posted by Oleg
Take a look to my film, please. I hit Firefly 4 times in front hull with HVAP ammo (all penetrated) before he was dead finally. May be i shoot in wrong place?
t34_vs_M4 (http://www.okondr.mail333.com/t34_vs_M4.ahf)
The first shot went through the track only. Still, I don't think what you are showing is so much a Sherman issue but rather an issue with the new T-34 ammo. I significantly reduced the lethality of the new round compared to the standard round and that I think was a mistake. I do plan on changing that in the next patch.
In testing, the only interesting things that I've found is that the frontal armor is really helped out a lot by that slope and that the turret is pretty rounded so its easy for your turret shots to hit at highly oblique angles. But the hull is such a better target anyway.
To the question of why no other Sherman variants in this version. The reason is simply a lack of time. We had to shoehorn the Firefly just to get it in. I'm trying to work it out to go back and make a single pass to add a number of missing vehicle variants to the game. We could add a lot of vehicles really quick that way.
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Originally posted by Pyro
The first shot went through the track only. Still, I don't think what you are showing is so much a Sherman issue but rather an issue with the new T-34 ammo. I significantly reduced the lethality of the new round compared to the standard round and that I think was a mistake. I do plan on changing that in the next patch.
Thank you for explanation. I should try panzer against M4, probably.
You are right about first hit, of course, dunno why i didnt notice it before.
Anyway, i still thinking firefly is too good for free vehicle. If you want to give him low perk cost, like you said before, its ok. But if you decides to leave it free, weaken armor would be good compromise, imho (even if it will against history).
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Originally posted by Pyro
The first shot went through the track only. Still, I don't think what you are showing is so much a Sherman issue but rather an issue with the new T-34 ammo. I significantly reduced the lethality of the new round compared to the standard round and that I think was a mistake. I do plan on changing that in the next patch.
In testing, the only interesting things that I've found is that the frontal armor is really helped out a lot by that slope and that the turret is pretty rounded so its easy for your turret shots to hit at highly oblique angles. But the hull is such a better target anyway.
To the question of why no other Sherman variants in this version. The reason is simply a lack of time. We had to shoehorn the Firefly just to get it in. I'm trying to work it out to go back and make a single pass to add a number of missing vehicle variants to the game. We could add a lot of vehicles really quick that way.
How much would the bribe be for a Jagdpanzer IV and Jagdpanzer V or a Panther and King Tiger.:aok
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tigers have been cheaper, they run about 30-40 perks or less,it's dose not matter anyway's the M4 can kill a tiger in 1 shot, the only times I take out tigers now is when their is a cv off shore and a take a tiger for LTV's,the Sherman is the next tiger. lol, I have not taken a tiger out in TT for 5 days and I'm up to 1000 perks. i started out with less then 100, the M4 is uber, easy getting kills in it and perks with it are not bad.
all
~VansCrew~