Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: 8903 on April 14, 2007, 06:55:24 PM
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The F6F-3 was essentially "right", so the succeeding F6F-5 was a litttle more than a product-improved f6f-3 with a redesigned and closer-fitting engine cowling strenthened airframe, flat windscreen,spring -tab ailerons, and improved fighter-bomber capability with 2 1000lb (454kg) bombs or 11.75in (298mm) "tiny tim" rockets and 6 5in (127mm) rockets.
The first F6F-5 flew in april 1944, and production totaled 7868 aircraft including 1432 f6f-5N night-fighters with radar and in later aircraft, 2 of the machine guns were replaced with 20mm cannon. Under the terms of lend-lease act,the UK recieved 930 F6F-5 and F6F-5N fighters, for service as F.MK II. The F6F-5N was built with a 3cm radar, showing to good effect the overall midnight blue paint scheme.
OK so why don't we have the varient with the 2 20mm cannon and 4 50's? and or the ord option for the tiny tims? I wish this would get into play. We have how many different F4U's????
With this you really would not have to change much, just add a few thingsto the current F6F-5
Be gent's and fix this bad boy up for us CV fighting Squads!
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The F6F in the game is one of the older models, so when they update the airframe, perhaps we will see the F6F-3 as well as an updated version of the F6F-5 we have now. As for the F6F-5N, may not see it at all since there seems to have been a tendency by HTC to not model the night fighter variants of the various aircraft.
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Wouldn't it be neat to have some real 'night' time where night fighters or perhaps areas with flares/spotlights would be packed with combatants?
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I'd just like to see the F6F with some nice cannon. We have alot of F4U's why not have 1 more F6F-5? something with a little more punch.
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Give the best variants to the USN,
Give the worst variants to the IJN.
How lovely..
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Originally posted by 8903
I'd just like to see the F6F with some nice cannon. We have alot of F4U's why not have 1 more F6F-5? something with a little more punch.
Well, they were pretty rare relatively speaking, and they'd have to model the radome on the wing. Personally, I don't think the F6F needs any more punch than it has, but I'm a .50 cal kind of guy.
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Given the game expicitly gives every pilot Radar, I don't think anyone will be willing to fly a plane with the performance penalty that Radar installation imposes on the plane.
What's more, to be realistic for night flying, the game would have to be tweaked to force us to rely more on isntruments at night than we do.
-Blogs
Originally posted by 8903
The F6F-3 was essentially "right", so the succeeding F6F-5 was a litttle more than a product-improved f6f-3 with a redesigned and closer-fitting engine cowling strenthened airframe, flat windscreen,spring -tab ailerons, and improved fighter-bomber capability with 2 1000lb (454kg) bombs or 11.75in (298mm) "tiny tim" rockets and 6 5in (127mm) rockets.
The first F6F-5 flew in april 1944, and production totaled 7868 aircraft including 1432 f6f-5N night-fighters with radar and in later aircraft, 2 of the machine guns were replaced with 20mm cannon. Under the terms of lend-lease act,the UK recieved 930 F6F-5 and F6F-5N fighters, for service as F.MK II. The F6F-5N was built with a 3cm radar, showing to good effect the overall midnight blue paint scheme.
OK so why don't we have the varient with the 2 20mm cannon and 4 50's? and or the ord option for the tiny tims? I wish this would get into play. We have how many different F4U's????
With this you really would not have to change much, just add a few thingsto the current F6F-5
Be gent's and fix this bad boy up for us CV fighting Squads!
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Originally posted by joeblogs
Given the game expicitly gives every pilot Radar, I don't think anyone will be willing to fly a plane with the performance penalty that Radar installation imposes on the plane.
What's more, to be realistic for night flying, the game would have to be tweaked to force us to rely more on isntruments at night than we do.
-Blogs
According to Barret Tillman's Book, "Corsair", pilot's did not report any major penalties owing to the radome on the wing. I believe it was the same from his book "Hellcat", but it's been some time since I have read it.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Give the best variants to the USN,
Give the worst variants to the IJN.
How lovely..
Thats the plan?:huh
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The equipment weighs several huindred pounds. The Radome creates additional drag and it is asymmetric at that. If you look at the Navy performance charts for these models, you find a small speed penalty and a more significant penalty in climb rates. Given the F6 is already a reletively slow plane in the game, I doubt a nightfighter version offering the pilot nearly the same information he or she can find on the Map view will be used much.
Much as I like Tillman's books, his performance charts do not always agree with the Navy tests reports. Tillman often uses the manufacturer's results and these sometimes do not reflect the production models (some equipment and armor missing, different fuel loads, etc).
-blogs
Originally posted by Bodhi
According to Barret Tillman's Book, "Corsair", pilot's did not report any major penalties owing to the radome on the wing. I believe it was the same from his book "Hellcat", but it's been some time since I have read it.
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The 2 x 20mm loadout for the F6F-5 was a universal option...meaning that just like the wing for the F4U-D the F6F-5 wing was engineered to accept the 2 x 20mm, 4 x .50 option right from the factory. Every single F6F-5 built was so configured. The 20mm option was actually the original design but the Navy elected to retain the 6 x .50 loadout as standard. All 879 F6F-5's deleivered to the royal navy were configured with the 2 x 20mm option. It also was employed by the Navy in the Pac but to the best of my knowledge no unit ever "switched"...it was used on a mission by mission basis just like loading up bombs or rockets. The navy had an unusual view on recce/spotting planes in that the F6F-5P was upgunned to the 2 x 20mm loadout....it was more common for photo/recon/spotting planes like the mustang/spittie to be lightly or totally un-armed. The P was fairly widely used in the Pac (FM-2 was used in the same role as well{no 20mm obviously}). The F6F5-P did see combat action in Europe in 8/44 with planes from the USS Tulagi (VOF-1) claiming 6 german planes in support of the invasion of southern france. VMF-74 also saw action over France claiming 2 planes, since they were a standard unit they were more likely in normal F6F-5's...however they did have their night fighting detachment and the 7 F6F-5N's operated from Corsica....
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Joeblogs,
We have a radome here for a F6F-5k. It weighs approximately a 150 Pounds. The scope probably about 40 pounds.
The interesting thing is I looked up in the pilot's handbook for the for the -5 / -5N and it shows no differences from the -5 to -5N on the charts...
Maybe an oversight, who knows.
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Originally posted by 8903
OK so why don't we have the varient with the 2 20mm cannon and 4 50's? and or the ord option for the tiny tims? I wish this would get into play. We have how many different F4U's????
This has been done to death in the past. As Humble said, all F6F-5s were built to be able to use the 20mm option, but even in the -5N there is no photo proof that it was ever used. I would not hold my breath for a 20mm option for the F6F.
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Originally posted by Grits
This has been done to death in the past. As Humble said, all F6F-5s were built to be able to use the 20mm option, but even in the -5N there is no photo proof that it was ever used. I would not hold my breath for a 20mm option for the F6F.
The -5N varient did carry the 2x 20mm gun package with 4x. 50 cals in the night fighter units. Just finished reading Aces of the Pacific and it has a story of a US Navy night fighter pilot that was flying the -5N with the 20mm gun package. When I get home, I'll post his story. IIRC, he was only the 2nd pilot in the PTO to score all of his kills at night, the 1st one being a Marine pilot flying the night fighter version of the Corsair.
ack-ack
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IIRC I think that was Porter who flew with the mixed weapon package. I also think he was the exception rather than the rule. To my knowledge only a few pilots flew with that armament, the majority of even the nightfighter units used the 6 x .50 cal MG's
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I did not have a chance to check the exact data until tonight, but here are numbers from Rene francillon's definitive book on Grumman aircraft:
speed
f6f-5 380
f6f-fn 366
rate of climb (at 1,000 ft)
f6f-5 2980
f6f-5n 2840
normal range
f6f-5 945
f6f-fn 880
maximum range
f6f-5 1355
f6f-fn 1280
weight (empty)
f6f-5 9238
f6f-fn 9421
The effect on speed was greater than I remembered. The effect on the rate of climb was less than I remembered.
I haven't looked at the numbers for the F4u night fighter so I can't say anything there.
From a british source I obtained a number for the APS-6 radar unit of 250lbs.
Of course what really matters is what additional information a plane with on board radar would give a player in Aces High. Seems to me the game would have to be significantly redesigned for this to really matter. The game assumes a degree of communication, command, and control (C3) that rarely, if ever, ocurred in that era. Just read a bit on how the USN managed its radio links for aircraft and CVs and you'll see what I mean.
-Blogs
Originally posted by Bodhi
Joeblogs,
We have a radome here for a F6F-5k. It weighs approximately a 150 Pounds. The scope probably about 40 pounds.
The interesting thing is I looked up in the pilot's handbook for the for the -5 / -5N and it shows no differences from the -5 to -5N on the charts...
Maybe an oversight, who knows.
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Originally posted by Soulyss
IIRC I think that was Porter who flew with the mixed weapon package. I also think he was the exception rather than the rule. To my knowledge only a few pilots flew with that armament, the majority of even the nightfighter units used the 6 x .50 cal MG's
Right, even the -5Ns that were shipped with the 20mm, nearly all were changed to all .50s in squadron use. I'm not saying it was never flown with the 2x20mm option, but it was exceedingly rare.
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Originally posted by Soulyss
IIRC I think that was Porter who flew with the mixed weapon package. I also think he was the exception rather than the rule. To my knowledge only a few pilots flew with that armament, the majority of even the nightfighter units used the 6 x .50 cal MG's
All of the N's and P's were delivered with 20mm option installed. From what I can gather the logistics problems forece many to be "converted" back. One porblem was finding the linkage for the 20mm rounds...the other was that the 20mm gun stuck out 8 inches further which apparently was enough to create positioning problems {thats how closely packed the planes were}.
Here is a link to the last combat action reports for the Enterprise in 1945 that highlights the problems involved (stuff specific to the N is on last page or close to it)...
Enterprise AAR (http://www.cv6.org/ship/logs/action194505-0273-3.htm)
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VOF-1 is the only squad I know of that flew the P. Normally the P's and N's were part of the operational squad and I think logistics were tougher. I've linked a order of battle that shows typical compositions....Order of Battle {Cape Engano 10/44} (http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob/OOB_WWII_Pacific/OOB_WWII_Cape_Engano.htm)
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If anyone knows how to actually ferret out what load out Charlie Mallory's F6F-5P had I'd be curious. VF-18 was very active and Charlie was one of there photo/recon pilots. My understanding is that the P's were alot more likely to actually have the 20mm since they not only observed but interdicted ( Jabo'd) what they found.
Ace in a day (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3901/is_200311/ai_n9325657)
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Originally posted by humble
VOF-1 is the only squad I know of that flew the P. Normally the P's and N's were part of the operational squad and I think logistics were tougher. I've linked a order of battle that shows typical compositions....Order of Battle {Cape Engano 10/44} (http://www.navweaps.com/index_oob/OOB_WWII_Pacific/OOB_WWII_Cape_Engano.htm)
I have a poor copy of a photo of two VOF-1 F6F-5P Hellcats taken during the invasion of southern France, flying from the USS Tulagi. The image is very small and lacking in detail, but the nearest F6F sure looks to be armed with a 20mm in each wing. However, the quality of the image makes this inconclusive.
(http://home.att.net/~c.c.jordan/VOF-1-F6F-5P.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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WW I'm 99% sure that VOF-1 flew the P with the 20mm. I've read it in multiple places but haven't found it in anything "official". It is my understanding that the P's were flown with the 20mm in the pac as well.
But in reading the report from the enterprise its clear that the ammo wasnt always available. It does however support that the N's were delivered with the 20mm installed and that every effort was made to secure ammo prior to sailing. Since these were last minute additions and not part of the normal cadre for that carrier they didnt have them.
Thats why VF-18 is interesting, Mallory was specifically a recce pilot flying a F6F-5P. He was in the same role as the VOF-1 pilots....from what I've read it is more then likely he was flying a 20mm armed F6F-5P....but again I cant find the actual documentation. If you blow up the pic you posted it's pretty clear that those are in fact 20mm on the VOF-1 F6F's.
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Francillon says the same thing.
-Blogs
Originally posted by humble
All of the N's and P's were delivered with 20mm option installed....
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Originally posted by humble
All of the N's and P's were delivered with 20mm option installed. From what I can gather the logistics problems forece many to be "converted" back. One porblem was finding the linkage for the 20mm rounds...the other was that the 20mm gun stuck out 8 inches further which apparently was enough to create positioning problems {thats how closely packed the planes were}.
Did not the wings fold back parallel to the fuselage?
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Did not the wings fold back parallel to the fuselage?
They sure did. That was a brilliant solution by Grumman that allowed the planes to be packed tighter.
In the folded position, the guns are pointing down. Maybe a long barrel was too close to the floor?
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Don't think so bozon
(http://broadcast.illuminatedtech.com/pages/archives_ww2_era/16%20-%20Grumman%20F6F-3%20Hellcat.jpg)
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This has been covered a few times re: the F6Fs 20mm.
The vast majority of the F6F night fighters were armed without the 20mm option. It was an option only for night fighters, and as such, imho, should not be an option in AHII unless they model night fighters with radars down the road.
Operationally, most VFN and VMF(N) units found the extra 20mm was of little extra use, as the Japanese a/c they fired on would "light up" just fine from 6 x 50s (mixed incindiery, tracer, and ball loads). There was no problem of lack of firepower.
They were only used in action in the Pacific vs the Japanese.
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It wasnt an option only for night fighters. It was also the standard factory build out for all F6F-5P's. Every F6F-5 N or P came from the factoyry configured as a 2 x 20mm, 4 x .50 bird. If you read the link above all 10 F6F-5N's delivered to the enterprise came that way. You can also note that the planes did not come with kits to convert them back to 6 x .50 configuration and that significant effort was made to aquire the belt link connectors for the 20mm rounds prior to departure. Had these not been very late arrivals the 5N's would have been left as 20mm birds.
The F6F-5P pilots were specially trained and the missions (and losses) were much more dangerous then normal. As an example many of the F5F-5P missions over Iwo Jima were flown as low as 200 ft over the beaches to map coral formations, beaches etc. The 5P's routinely engaged enemy ground targets and AA/artillery sites. Most units only had 3-6 of the 5P's mixed in but these were 20mm birds (from everything I've read). As WW's pic above clearly shows the 5P's did in fact have 20mm (VOF-1). Total production of the was not insignificant (more for example then the F4U C model or Nikki for example. In addition the british operated almost 900 with the 2 x 20mm configuration.
VOF-1 (and VF-74) saw action in France so the F6F-5 (and 20mm 5P) did see combat in the ETO and did in fact engage and kill enemy planes. There is no question that the 20m option was not standard and that no F6F equipped squad flew with the 20mm as a standard conversion. however many squads did have a section of F6F-5P's integrated and these planes did see action and were 20mm equipped (they did come from the factory so configured). That is one reason I'm curious about Mallory, he was a trained "recce" pilot and was flying his 5P when he shot down his 5 kills. I can not however find anything specific to loadout. I have found that a signifcant amount of training was involved and that the 20mm option was in fact used on the 5P's. That the first "observation" squad was formed with 5P's with the 20mm option (VOF-1) and it deployed that way. The comments on the enterprise report clearly show a reccomendation that the F6F-5(N,P) spotting charts needed to be distributed to all carriers deploying said birds....
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"VOF-1 (and VF-74) saw action in France so the F6F-5 (and 20mm 5P) did see combat in the ETO"
I never said the F6F was never used in the ETO, the Fleet Air Arm used it as well I said the night fighter F6Fs (with 20mm) were only used vs the Japanese.
I would have to ask what source you have that indicates either of the above units ever had F6Fs that were 20mm armed. Just because some VFs were given F6F-5Ns or F6F-5Ps in the Pacific does not "prove" anything.
It has also been well established that even having a F6F-5N did mean they were ever armed with the 20mm gun.
So you are seriously stretching here unless you have a source.
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look at WW's picture, no question in my mind that those are 20mm. Did you read the enterprise report linked? All 10 of the F6F-5N's were delivered with the 20mm. Great efforts were made to secure the linkage bands for the 20mm rounds before saling.
It is well documented that the 5P's were built and delivered with 20mm onboard. The enterprise report also discusses "spotting" issues for plane storage and the importance of having the proper spotting templates delievered to carriers deploying the 20mm armed F6F's.
I've come across multiple sources for VOF-1 and the pic speaks for itself. If you read thru the national archives you'll find a few mentions specific to the 5p's that indicate 20mm loadouts among other things. The 5P's routinely engaged ground targets (as an example 2 F6F-5P's were lost over Yap). If you read the history of VOF-1 it was specifically trained to identify and attack enemy artillery and suppy in addition to recce. It was specifically deployed for the invasion (southern france) for that role and primarily took out supply convoys, trains and artillery. If the Navy didnt want the P's and N's to have 20mm they wouldnt have built them that way. The swap outs were due to logistics....if the ordinance wasnt there then the 20mm were removed...but the enterprise docs make it clear that the 5N's were a last minute delivery and that every effort was made to secure the right linkage for the 20mm belts.
The 20mm option was a much bigger issue for the P drivers since they were flying directly in support of ground operations. Losses among the P drivers were very high. It was the WW2 equivelnt to the british tornado pilots in the gulf war. The P's were flying recce at 200 ft over Iwo Jima in support of the landings....the P was an air to ground plane....which is why the Navy requested the upgrade to the 20mm loadout in the 1st place.
I'm constantly amazed at the garbage here on this type of issue...
It has also been well established that even having a F6F-5N did mean they were ever armed with the 20mm gun
10 20mm planes were delievered to the enterprise, the 20mm were only removed after every effort was made to find belt linkage for the 20mm rounds. The planes didnt even come with the 6 x 50 cal conversion kit...the Navy had every intent to fly them as delivered....
Every F6F-5N and F6F-5P was built with the 20mm loadout...every single one. As indicated they were often delivered to ships not logistically equipped for them. So yes they were removed when unusable. As the logistics process caught up the 20mm F6F's were used and some "standard" F6F-5's were built with the 20mm load out in 1945 as well....
Two days prior to sailing for the forward area this ship received ten F6F-5N's with 20 MM guns installed. An immediate attempt was made to procure the ammunition for the guns but no activity could supply the M-7 links necessary for them and it was subsequently learned that no one in the forward area had any of the subject links available. Further, the conversion kits which are supposed to accompany these planes for the purpose of installing .50 cal. guns if desired were nowhere in evidence
. The conversion to the .50 cal. installations was made but not without a great deal of difficulty and the necessity for a large amount of machine shop work being done. The apparent lack of foresight on the part of the planners for this installation could be very embarrassing to a ship receiving these planes in the forward area and would cut down the combat efficiency of the units attempting to operate these planes considerably.
A further question on the 20 MM installation arose after the planes were aboard. The 20 MM guns protrude 8½ inches further out on each side than do the .50 cal. guns and this brings up a spotting problem. On this ship one plane for each row on both the flight and hangar decks is lost because of the increased width if the planes are to be spotted so that they can be operated. It is reasonable to assume that the same thing will apply to the CV-9 type carrier. Models for the ouija board should be made up and sent to all ships immediately for purposes of planning for these planes.
So this indicates that the N's were in fact delivered to the fleet with the 20mm option and that every effort was made to keep them so configured.
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Originally posted by Squire
Operationally, most VFN and VMF(N) units found the extra 20mm was of little extra use, as the Japanese a/c they fired on would "light up" just fine from 6 x 50s (mixed incindiery, tracer, and ball loads). There was no problem of lack of firepower.
On the contrary...they were happy with the 20mm as it made the first pass more likely to result in the bogies death at night as there was a good possibility of losing the target as the Hellcat came around for a 2nd pass.
ack-ack
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I only go with what sources I have, since I wasnt there.
Barret Tillmans book on the Hellcat doesnt seem to support that they were that happy with it. Most units had jamming problems, which is why it was not widely used.
I also read the book of Major Porter, USMC ("Ace") the only night ace from the US Marines, and he wasnt a fan of the 20mm either, despite his mount "Black Death" being so armed.
Night attacks involved closing to fairly short range on an unsuspecting bomber or fighter, and blasting them, vs Japanese a/c, they trouble of "making a 2nd pass" would have been a doubtfull problem.
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Humble: You wouldn't need a "conversion kit".
Every f6f was capable of this mount. Every f6f. Not just the Ps. That means any additional mounts, brackets, bolts, what-not, were already on the ships, as part of the normally stocked spare parts for the existing f6fs. If one got shot up they'd need to remount it. Or if gun vibrations from the 50cals damaged the mounts they'd need to replace them.
They'd already have them.
Just because they were shipped doesn't mean they were used that way. Look at SpitVc with 4x20mm. Most were simply shipped that way, then had the outboard pair of 20mms removed, used as spare parts.
So far, seems that only a handful actually used the 20mm. The exception rather than the rule.
Just my take on the matter.
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Krusty,
Look at the text above, thats from the enterprise's own combat patrol report. The F6F-5N's (10) they recieved did not have the conversion kit and they needed to use the machine shop to fabricate whart they needed. I assumed you just swapped em in and out as well....but obviously the mountings were significantly different.
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If anyone cares:
The erection and maintenance manual says:
This conversion to mixed battery, or to .50 calibre installation, can be accomplished by a four-man team in approximately four hours.
Thats 16 man hours... an awfully long time.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u191/bodhi83/GunConversionsized.jpg)
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Here is a picture of the mixed battery from the exterior and the gun bay:
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u191/bodhi83/MixedBatterysized.jpg)