Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: coinbird on April 16, 2007, 03:24:12 PM
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I know it would sit as a hangar queen in MA, but was such an important plane for the german war effort, and it will be greatly needed if there is going to be a CT based on the battle of britian.
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coin bahd.....angry for coins
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I always found the He-111 to be needed, and I doubt she'll be a hangar queen.
Compared to the Ju-88 (the only German level-bomber in the game!!!) she would do well. Better armament, a decent speed and loadout.
And the historical value would compensate for all drawbacks
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Ju88 has better payload, better speeds, better range, and probably better defensive guns.
EDIT: That was just to clarify, y'all know I want the He111, no need to repeat myself :)
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Originally posted by Krusty
Ju88 has better payload, better speeds, better range, and probably better defensive guns.
I guess it is time for facts again:
He-111 was able to carry approximately the same amount of ordanance by it's final versions, 5511 lbs. which is the same amount as the Ju-88.
The He111 has a 2800 km range. The Ju-88 has a 2108 km range.
The Ju-88 is faster than the He-111 by almost 110 kph. (Hey, you got something right!)
As for defensive armnament, the He-111 started out with three defensive 7.9MM guns, as did the Ju-88. The final He-111 had 5 7.9MM and 1 20mm and one 13mm defensive guns. The Ju-88 bomber version maxed at 6 7.9MM guns. (The night fighter version had 1 20mm and 3 7.9mm guns in a hard nose.)
That said, I think the He-111 would have a place in game and I would be all for it's inclusion.
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Originally posted by frank3
I always found the He-111 to be needed, and I doubt she'll be a hangar queen.
Compared to the Ju-88 (the only German level-bomber in the game!!!) she would do well. Better armament, a decent speed and loadout.
And the historical value would compensate for all drawbacks
At start of WW2, Ju 88 was a brand new bomber, the He 111 already several years old and nearing the end of it's useful service life. The 88 eventually went on to evolve into a myriad of fast bomber, ground attack, heavy destroyer, recon and (perhaps most most important) nightfigter versions. The He was considered outclassed at a relatively early point in the war, being relegated whenever possible to more secondary roles.
Sadly, the inability to introduce more capable replacements in sufficient numbers forced the Luftwaffe to continue the use of this outdated plane.
And now for my usual mantra: Give us the Do-217! :D
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The very final latest versions had 13mm guns on them, yes. Most had 1x7mm in nose, 1x7mm in dorsal, 1x7mm ventral bin firing aft, and the 20mm (if equipped) was in ventral firing fore/down. There were side guns equipped in a window on each side, but often these were of little use and many were removed in the field.
As for the payload: The He111 could carry larger over-load bombs, but only 2 of them on an external rack. Unlike the Ju88, which could carry external AND internal, the He111 could only carry one or the other, as the external rack mount blocked the bomb bay doors completely.
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Originally posted by Krusty
As for the payload: The He111 could carry larger over-load bombs, but only 2 of them on an external rack. Unlike the Ju88, which could carry external AND internal, the He111 could only carry one or the other, as the external rack mount blocked the bomb bay doors completely.
1 x 4,409 lb bomb (carried externally) and
1 x 1,102 lb bomb (carried internally) or
8 x 551lb bombs (all carried internally)
Try again.
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You are incorrect, Bodhi. The He111 had vertical bomb racks. They could not accomodate the larger bomb sizes. The external racks completely blocked the bomb bay doors regardless, as they had a contoured shape to reduce drag.
Your source is not accurate.
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The torpedo rack definitely covers the bomb bay. Not the external bomb racks though.
I think I will trust the Battle of Britain Historical Society. Their accredidation far exceeds your propensity for distorting facts. ;)
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Originally posted by Krusty
You are incorrect, Bodhi. The He111 had vertical bomb racks. They could not accomodate the larger bomb sizes. The external racks completely blocked the bomb bay doors regardless, as they had a contoured shape to reduce drag.
Your source is not accurate.
Just out of my crappy memory... didn't have the later He 111 versions (H16?) external racks (ETC Träger) mounted under their engine nacelles?
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Okay. I'm confused.
The question I have to ask is: are you looking for an EW version of the He-111 to be used in the EW arena and BoB senerios? Or do you want an improved LW version of the He-111 ...similar load to JU-88 but much, much, much slower.....to sit in the back of the hangar next to the Arado in LW?
Additionally, since we are apparently going to get a EW/MW medium level bomber by popular vote, do we expect another EW/MW bomber to be added to the game in the forseeable future? We expect the Mitchell to prove that popular?
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YES! to the He-111! I was so disappointed when it didnt make it through the votes... I think its much more significant than the B-25, but hey, thats just me.
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Bodhi: The external bomb rack was the same for torpedos and for the larger sized bombs. The torpedos simply staggered their position so the fins didn't hit each other. This is also the same rack used when the He111 was a transport, carrying cargo canisters instead of bombs. It was pretty much the same rack for all external ord.
These racks are placed directly OVER the bomb bay doors, completely blocking them. There is no way to jettison these racks in flight, and they completely cover the bomb bay doors.
There's no way you can carry the external racks with internal ord.
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Originally posted by Lusche
Just out of my crappy memory... didn't have the later He 111 versions (H16?) external racks (ETC Träger) mounted under their engine nacelles?
I think you're thinking of a different plane. The He111 couldn't support a bomb rack there. That's where the oil cooler and radiator were, and right behind that was the gear doors (there's no gap between the engine and the gear doors, they're back to back).
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Originally posted by Bodhi
1 x 4,409 lb bomb (carried externally) and
1 x 1,102 lb bomb (carried internally) or
8 x 551lb bombs (all carried internally)
Try again.
Bodhi, stop picking fights.
From MY source, probarbly differant and inaccurate, but hey its mine.
'ARMAMENT (P2) 7.92 Rheinmtall MG 15 machine gun on manual mountings in Nosecap, open dorsal positionand ventral gondola; (H3) same, plus fixed forward firing MG 15 or 17, two MG 15's in waist windows and (Usually) 20 mm MG FF cannon in front of Ventral gondola and (Sometimes) fixed rear firing MG 17 in extreme tail; internal bomb load up to 4,410lb (2000kg) in vertical cells, stored nose up; external bomb load (at expense of internal) one 4,410lb (2000kg) on H-3, one or two 1,102 (500kg) on others; later marks carried one or two 1686lb (765kg) torpedoes, Bv 246 glide missiles, Hs 293 rocket missiles, Fritz X radio- controlled glide bombs or one FZG-76 ("V-1") cruise missile.
Thats from my source, so you all can criticize me.
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Originally posted by Krusty
There's no way you can carry the external racks with internal ord.
This is my biggest problem with you. You become such a "know-it-all" with regards to a subject that you are not accurate on.
The He-111 can carry internal ordinance as well as external ordinance at the same times. The external bomb racks do not cover the bomb bay, they are mounted outboard of the bomb bays.
All sources state this that I have read, or viewed.
I will post a photo for you tomorrow as I do not have a scanner at the house.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
This is my biggest problem with you. You become such a "know-it-all" with regards to a subject that you are not accurate on.
ok Ive heard enough.
And you Bodhi of course are the worlds leading authority on He-111's and know every little thing about them! Allow others to post their views and their information without discrediting it immediatly. My source backs up what Krusty says, and although I do not say its the best, its still a source. So maybe the pot should not call the kettle black
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Originally posted by macleod01
ok Ive heard enough.
And you Bodhi of course are the worlds leading authority on He-111's and know every little thing about them! Allow others to post their views and their information without discrediting it immediatly. My source backs up what Krusty says, and although I do not say its the best, its still a source. So maybe the pot should not call the kettle black
Are you his nursemaid now?
I am not an authority, but I am able to cite my sources including photos.
Maybe you should just stay out of this.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Are you his nursemaid now?
I am not an authority, but I am able to cite my sources including photos.
Maybe you should just stay out of this.
and are others not allowed to do the same? I just backed up a fellow flyer who's sources agree with mine. Can i not post this?
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It just makes you incorrect as well. But have it your way. :rolleyes:
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Unfortunately everyone picked the B-25.
You'll have to wait another 10 years for another plane, and another 20 for ANOTHER bomber...but who knows....maybe the dudes will blow the next plane choice 10 years from now and choose another medium bomber.
Go figure.
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After a quick glance into my archive, It seems that there were external racks under the fuselage (= instead of internal load) as well as under the inner wings (that was the thing I had in mind). So I can imagine that it would have been possible to use only the outer racks and thus being able to still use the bombays. Though one caption says "later versions of the He 11 dispensed with their bomb bays and carried their loads externally".
So you may both be right...
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Woo
i started a aviation nerd fight :)
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Bodhi: The bomb bay on the He111 was a rather outdated design. The bomb bay was not centered, as was the B-17s. Instead it had 2 upright racks. The bombs hung nose-up in these vertical racks. There was a passageway built in between the bomb bays -- not just a ramp, a complete passageway. The bombs were offset to both sides of the fuselage, the racks close to the outside walls. The bomb bay doors were spring-loaded, and the bombs would fall out arse-first and flip around (nose down) in the wind stream. Other early war bombers also dropped their bombs this way, including the Ju86 and I believe the Ju88. The doors were not centered. There was one on either side, and the external bomb racks (the ones you carry the big bombs, the torpedos, or the cargo canisters on) are spaced such that they completely obliterate the bomb bays ability to open.
There is a gap of space between the two racks, but that is not where the bomb bay doors are.
Most did do away with internal loads later in the war, because they carried a very small internal load (1000kg, I think?), and they were very vulnerable to enemy fighters. Most carried external ord only, later in the war.
You can read up on it all you want. Calling me a "know-it-all" doesn't change what you'll find.
P.S... you cite 1 possibly erronous source, and have given no photos. So what's this "I'm able to cite sources and give photos"?
You may feel free to read more on the matter, or you may ignore my comments.
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Ju188A-2 would be a nice addition. Better than the Do217 in my opinion.
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This image shows a cutaway of a He111F. Note that the internal structure aft of the cockpit changed very little (only the removal of the dustbin gun). It removes the closest bomb rack and shows the opposite one.
(http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/111/he111.B-E-F_interior.jpg)
Here you see the inside. The racks have been removed, and you can see the position they would have on the aircraft fuselage below.
(http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/111/111.bombbay.jpg)
Note that the external bomb racks, the same rack used for either external bombs, torpedos, or external cargo canisters, cover these spots. There is no bomb bay in the middle. There is no door.
Installing the external bomb racks covers the bomb bay areas almost entirely.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Installing the external bomb racks covers the bomb bay areas almost entirely.
Installing the fuselage racks. Yes.
But HEs did have underwing hardpoints too, where rack could be installed. These would not block the bomb bay doors, though I don't know yet if this variant was used much...
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Here we see external bombs mounted under the fuselage:
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/8480/he111fuselagerackkh8.png)
And here you can see the inner wing hardpoint:
(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/3770/he111winggy2.png)
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I think you've looked at the photo wrong, Lusche.
See the engine on one side, and the tip of the other engine on the other? That's mounted under the fuselage, between both engines.
Also note it says "asymmetrical"? Normally there'd be two of those mounted right over the bomb bay doors, but there's only 1 in that photo.
EDIT: P.S. That's the same bomb rack I was referencing above. I've even seen it on 3D models and scale model kits. It's definitely under the fuselage.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I think you've looked at the photo wrong, Lusche.
See the engine on one side, and the tip of the other engine on the other? That's mounted under the fuselage, between both engines.
Also note it says "asymmetrical"? Normally there'd be two of those mounted right over the bomb bay doors, but there's only 1 in that photo.
EDIT: P.S. That's the same bomb rack I was referencing above. I've even seen it on 3D models and scale model kits. It's definitely under the fuselage.
Hell, you may be right... I will keep looking for more detailed informations...
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Originally posted by Krusty
Bodhi: The bomb bay on the He111 was a rather outdated design. The bomb bay was not centered, as was the B-17s.
WRONG AGAIN...
the B-17's bombay is 100% centered on the longitudinal axis of the fuselage. As a matter of fact, the bomb bay center line forms a major portion of the structure of the aircraft's wing. Without it, the wing would flex along the horizontal axis and the results would be catastrophic to the aircraft. On top of this, I personally rebuilt the center line structure along with ALL the bomb racks on "Liberty Bell", a flying B-17G. These structures were built 100% from the original drawings. While not difficult, it was a challenge considering the previous duty of the aircraft. I was not involved in the change of the "cat walk" into a more friendly walking environment through the bomb bay as it changed the original 11 inch catwalk into a more "user" friendly environment.
Originally posted by Krusty
You can read up on it all you want. Calling me a "know-it-all" doesn't change what you'll find.
You just talked out your butt again... is that not being a "know-it-all" or what.
Originally posted by Krusty
P.S... you cite 1 possibly erronous source, and have given no photos. So what's this "I'm able to cite sources and give photos"?
You may feel free to read more on the matter, or you may ignore my comments.
Krusty, I told you I have no scanner at my home. I said I would post a photo tomorrow when I am at work... would you prefer to add more spin to this?
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Originally posted by Krusty
The bomb bay on the He111 was a rather outdated design. The bomb bay was not centered, as was the B-17s.
Umm, I think Krusty was saying that the 17's bomb bay IS centered. Just worded a little odd. I think he meant it as "unlike the B-17s.".
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
Originally posted by Krusty
The bomb bay on the He111 was a rather outdated design. The bomb bay was not centered, as was the B-17s.
Umm, I think Krusty was saying that the 17's bomb bay IS centered. Just worded a little odd. I think he meant it as "unlike the B-17s.".
That's what I got out of it.
Krusty said the B17 DID have a centered bomb bay.
Even so...Bodhi seems so quick to jump on the "look look look you're wrong I'm right" wagon. I have no respect for people with this kind of attitude and therefor don't really care what they have to say.
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HE-111 will be needed, and will see some use.
Heck, I'd fly it just for the looks. A true beauty!
Then she was also a rugged bird AFAIK.
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I neglected to bring the book with me today. Will have to wait to post a photo tomorrow.
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He 111,would have made a good alternative troop carrier in the MA,It was designed as an airliner,and was often used in place of ju 52/3 in the east an med theatres.:(
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He111 R20/R1 could carry 16 troops and drop hatch.
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Hullo Coinbird, welcome!
Skies still overcast on the other side? ;)
-C+
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Yes, though it would be more of a welcome back, I have been on/off aces high since it was open beta :). though about wwiiol, it is and remains to be a complete mess with server populations always beating record lows.