Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Halo on April 16, 2007, 03:58:25 PM
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Practically speaking, what defense is best against killers who attack large numbers of people e.g., school and restaurant shootings? Being passive seems to not work.
Especially if some could get to the side or rear of an attacker, perhaps numbers could prevail and the shooter(s) could be swarmed and overpowered?
Anything seems better than docilely doing whatever the attacker has in mind.
Especially from you law enforcement and military veterans -- What can unarmed victims do to save themselves before help arrives?
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Get a concealed carry permit.
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Originally posted by Halo
Practically speaking, what defense is best against killers who attack large numbers of people e.g., school and restaurant shootings? Being passive seems to not work.
Especially if some could get to the side or rear of an attacker, perhaps numbers could prevail and the shooter(s) could be swarmed and overpowered?
Anything seems better than docilely doing whatever the attacker has in mind.
Especially from you law enforcement and military veterans -- What can unarmed victims do to save themselves before help arrives?
I always think about what I have in my pockets or can grab easily that will make a good slashing or stabbing weapon. I pretty much always have my keys and credit cards with me. If by myself, I would try and hold the shooter's gun arm down, and slash at eyes/face with a pen/pencil/credit card or keys. My old roommate was into judo and commented that the most effective tactic in fight was to kick in someone's knees...so I'd try to do that too. If someone else could help me, hopefully they could wrestle the gun away.
I'd be interested to see what anyone with formal martial arts/hand-to-hand training had to say, though...
Originally posted by SuperDud
Get a concealed carry permit.
The problem is that even a concealed permit does not allow you to take guns into public places. Schools especially. I personally only know of one person who was able to get a special permit to carry his gun all the time. He worked at a major state university in the Southeast which is "generally" more pro-2nd than other states. I couldn't imagine something like that where I work now (university in California...).
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i don't think you mean "public places", you mean "government places", schools are govt places.
interesting, if you carry a gun into a govt place without a CCP it is a felony, with a CCP it is a misdemeanor.
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It's strange but the other day a friend and I were watching some wildlife program and I made the comment that the difference between prey and predators is that the prey is stupid. You look at a pack of lions bursting into a herd of 100 wildebeest or such and have to figure that if the wildebeest ever decided in unison to charge the lions instead, things wouldn't go the lions' way.
Of course, barring incidents such as 9/11 or the more recent North African plane takeover, where everyone is speaking a different language than the attackers, I don't see how you could talk anyone into doing that, and if you're the only one that rushes them, you've pretty much guaranteed that things will go from bad to worse in a hurry. Not just for you, but for everyone.
Realistically though, you aren't going to find a group of people to take such a bold step simultaneously. At least not now.
I have read about students in certain school systems being trained to fight back from an early age, and being trained to all rush forward. It would be, um... "interesting?" (a horrible word, I know), to see if that did work, and I would have to guess that overall casualties would be lighter than today in similar situations, but I sure hope we never have to find out, and even if only one kid is killed, it still could be mine or yours.
Then again, you also run the risk of having a situation where the gunman wasn't actually going to open fire, but you just got him too. Of course, there's no real way to know if that would happen, so I guess it's just a gamble.
The bottom line, at least in my eyes, is that such a situation is one that the civilian probably can't make the best judgement of. They just aren't trained to take into account the variables of any given situation (is the gun automatic, is the safety on, how many gunmen, etc., etc.)
It's just a bad situation anyway you look at it. Sad news today indeed :(
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I haven't carried in years. Ive been in need of a new holster for some years. The best thing I can do is go get one and start carrying again.
I dont really want to but the alternative is not preferred.
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If you are not armed, run like heck. If running isn't an option, pray. People will generally not attack or swarm an armed shooter unless they are within arms reach at the beginning.
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I just hope Im never in that predicament. If everyone carried, Im sure the body count would be alot lower, and hopefully would deter people from doing this.
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NOTHING will deter a DETERMINED individual who is intent on killing a large number of people, except his or her own death. PERIOD. This evidently was not an individual with any other intent than to kill as many as possible before killing himself. You never know until whoever it is starts killing people.
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I'm surprised a spokesman from the NRA hasn't used this opportunity to suggest defense tactics for students. Usually they're very vocal on the subject of guns and gun safety.
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You are saying this in means of the virginia tech incident??? there is nothing you can do but pray and hope you can stop him.... you are pretty much taking a lump of meat to a gunfight not even a knife, you wouldn't be allowed to carry concealed weapon on campus because you yourself would than become a threat but mace and a little kick to the crotch will do the job if everyone where 2 be a hero and swarm him... till the day that people will put others before them arrives i really dont see these situations resulting with a less serious consequence
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Violence happens extremely fast. Even professional soldiers who get caught by surprise can be killed easily.
Run in a serpentine fashion to make yourself a harder shot. Try to escape. If you have a weapon and want to be a hero, run to an advantageous position then open fire. If you try to draw on a gunman who already has his weapon out and firing, he will shoot you.
Lets say for example you are in a classroom, and an average looking student comes in the door. You have your head in a book, or are looking out the window. All of a sudden you hear shots as the people in front of you are hit. Theres really not much you can do but try to escape. I'm not sure if its possible to jump through a window in real life. Glass is thick and strong, especially in government buildings. In that case, it may be best to charge the attacker. Once people get into a victim psychology, the will to fight back dissolves. And thats the type of psychological state you would be in. The military has to train soldiers over and over on something called 'immediate action drills' in order to override that natural panic/victim mentality.
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panic sets in and "fight or flight" takes over.... you see a gun everything around you fades away you start imagining things, you cant think straight you shake its pure fear, its like someone pulling you off the street throwing you on the presidential chair and telling you to talk to the whole united states???? what would you do???? crap urself right than and there. The whole matter is who is faster, and who has the greater will power and intellectual skill to know what to do while still keeping your cool.
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In one classroom.... no one got out alive. A tragedy no matter how you look at it.
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Everything coming out right now about the incident at WV Tech is by varied television news sources. It is much to soon to get a clear picture and details of what happened exactly or develop a time frame. Last I heard, there still was not an identity on the shooter. Television news is much more t.v., much less "news" (almost none sometimes). I'll wait for written reports to come out.
We'll see lot's of "gun control" and "self defense" talking heads coming out soon enough.
CCW would not have meant anything here.... only place a person *may* have been able to keep a CCW gun would be in their privately owned locked car in the parking lot --- having a CCW does not allow the holder to carry into schools, courthouses, government buildings and so forth. So, it's a non-issue in this case (but won't stop it from being brought up by talking heads).
I'm guessing there will be a lot that comes out about how the warning got released to the students and teaches, how quickly, and what campus security could have done before the police got there on scene. How are they equipped? How are they trained?
Over 30 dead though? 29 wounded? Using a handgun (from some reports)? That means a break down somewhere, IMHO. Were all the deaths and wounded from the attacker, or were any caused by any responders (it happens). It will be interesting to see the break down and time line to see what really happened.
As to Halo's original post: what can be done?
Massed groups, untrained in anything like this situation, are not good at dealing with an armed attacker or violence. You get group panic. You get hysteria. Only the "Flight" part of fight-or-flight kicks in most of the time. Look to what happened aboard United Airlines Flight 93. They had time to consider their move and information from ground sources via phone calls that their hi-jacked plane was to be used as a weapon.... their decision to rush the cockpit did not come about early.
Even most police forces are not trained to rush ahead in such a situation (a lot of complaints made about police response to Columbine for example) immediately. They tend to encircle, contain, control, and try to make contact with the person or people making an attack --- that does not work against someone bent on self destruction.
Some with military background and training may be able to rush forward on the offensive, but even here, those in combat units tend to train together with their team, squad, and platoon, and operate as a group. There is a bit of "muscle memory" involved in reacting to an incident. That group dynamic and it's strength is lost when an individual solider finds himself in a situation like this shooting.
Then there is the risk involved when the responders get there. A keyed up police officer entering a highly dangerous and mostly unknown environment can be nearly as hazardous to you as an attacker.
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The best defence is that situation was the one described by the student interviewed by Irish TV. He sounded more than a little traumatised. They were in a classroom and heard bangs, eventually figured they were shots and barricaded the door. They heard the creep try to get in but he couldn't and he moved on. Imagine how you would feel in that situation?
I think several people here have hit the nail on the head. Unless you are trained and primed and ready most people barely recognise a bad situation until it's too late. I know from the experience of walking straight into an armed robbery. By the time my feeble brain figured out what was going on they were in the car and gone. This in spite of one of the robbers seeing me as a threat and shouting 'Don't do it' as he ran past.
Even if you were carrying a weapon, you are already way behind the killer in terms of readiness and actual willingness to kill.
It's a horrible situation.
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I just don't understand how this topic can be discussed because there is no "patent, standard answer". Every case is "going to be different than the other" and frankly, when 31 students get shot like this, it won't bring them back.
I have the opportunity to get a CCW here in Michigan for $20 class fee, instead of $200. F**k it, I'm getting it.
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I was actually thinking about this the other day. I own guns. But I currently have none of them up here at school with me. My reasoning was that I had no need for them. There's no target shooting nearby, the riflery team was filled with giant sweetheart-turds, and I felt relatively safe, considering I'm a somewhat built tall guy.
I'm pretty sure my school doesn't allow CCW, but I'd say i'm only 50% sure.
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Firearms are not allowed at any university. Theres plenty of stickers on the doors at the university of louisville that say "Firearms are prohibited".
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The tragic part concerning CCW's on college campus's (Virginia Tech is a prime excample) is that Virginia State law doesn't address the issue. Virginia Tech is a privately funded college, and the state law prohibiting carrying a weapon on state property doesn't apply.
The ban on weapons on campus there is a campus rule, not a law. You CANNOT be arrested for carrying a weapon on campus there with a valid permit, but the school can administer punishment or expel a student for "breaking" the rules even though he was abiding by state law.
One student of Virginia Tech is already fighting that rule from last year when he was punished for legally carrying a conceled weapon on campus. He wasn't arrested because he broke no laws. His case has to deal with campus authorities over riding state law with no legal grounds.
I'm not sure what they would be able to do to a visitor that wasn't enrolled there if they were legally carrying a weapon. I imagine the only thing they could do is ask that person to leave, but they would have no legal ground to prosecute.
Now I'm not saying that if students were allowed to carry on campus if this tradgedy would or would not have happened anyway, but you have to wonder.
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Originally posted by Dago
People will generally not attack or swarm an armed shooter unless they are within arms reach at the beginning.
Or if they know they are going to die regardless what action they take, like those on United Flight 93 that decided to fight back.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Shuffler
In one classroom.... no one got out alive. A tragedy no matter how you look at it.
4 of the students survived from that classroom from the latest reports.
ack-ack
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Universities are either private property or government property, so they have a right to deny you carry privileges when you are on that property. While I believe guns should have no place in schools, schools are obviously not sequestered from society.
What would I do if this horrible crap went down while I was sitting in class?
???
Damn, I honestly don't know. I'd have to hope to be lucky. I carry a mechanical pencil with a metal tip (especially on airplanes), but the limitations of that are obvious. I have my keys on a short chain with a clip, attached to my belt and easily at hand, but that's not gonna reach much farther. I could throw a chair, a book, maybe even a laptop to try to distract, but that's only possible with lots of luck anyway. Getting the drop on the gunman somehow is the only possible way, without better armament.
Did anyone see the idiot who proposed bullet proof textbooks as a solution to school violence?
My heart goes out to every one that was affected by this horrible tragedy. I hope for their sake that clarity can be made of this situation. A shooting happened at my other school, but nothing like this. I guess I just don't know what else to say.
Peace be to them.
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Halo, In response to your original post:It's still to soon after this tragedy to be able to say what should or should not have been done. Skuzzy mentioned in another thread that this tragedy was still too fresh to start a political argument,(of which I'm sure there will be many).
All we can really do at this time is watch, listen, wait, and pray for those affected.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Or if they know they are going to die regardless what action they take, like those on United Flight 93 that decided to fight back.
But, that was not an immediate response reaction.
Those people on Flight 93 had time to consider what was happening. They had some phone contact with people on the ground and some idea of what was happening elsewhere. They had time to discuss this amongst themselves and make the decision to rush the cockpit.
Not the same as a gunman entering the room and opening fire.
From one report, at least one classroom had the presence of mind to block their classroom's doors when they heard gunfire, and another group locked themselves in a teacher's office.
I'm betting many talking heads will bring up Flight 93 in the days coming, but it really does not compare to this situation.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
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I'm pretty sure my school doesn't allow CCW, but I'd say i'm only 50% sure. [/B]
If not prevented by state law, I'm betting school policy prohibits it and you could be expelled for having one. Just seems to be a standard policy.
My college has pretty standard rules on this, the only place for my weapon is IN my locked vehicle while on the campus. That is the only situation that does not run afoul of school policies or state laws concerning my CCW --- not specified in writing by the rules (they would never put anything like that in print), but when you read the dos and don't (and between the lines), I'm covered.
Some schools go so far to prohibit guns anywhere on school property, including private vehicles. Could still get you expelled, even though such a policy may be in conflict with state laws. But, who's likely to have the better lawyer?
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Originally posted by cpxxx
Even if you were carrying a weapon, you are already way behind the killer in terms of readiness and actual willingness to kill.
About 9 years ago I was going on vacation. The wife was already sitting in the car and she forgot something so I went to retrieve it. Meanwhile there was a domestic dispute going on all morning. SO as I walk into the apartment courtyard I notices this spluttering guy walking towards me. Pointing back and yelling at a middleaged couple and their 20something daughter. He is breathing hard and spraying spittle all over the front of his shirt as I ntice his pointing finger is huge and black. About to do a little pointing and laughing myself at this circus freaks sideshow finger, my mind clicks into place that this fool has a fricken desert eagle. I calmly walk by go up to my apartment and am seriously back to my front door with my .12gauge loaded with 3in 00 buck and slugs faster then I thought possible. Meanwhile crazyfreak has walked into the parking lot, where my car is, with my wife in and he is standing facing the car and wheezing like a madman. Seriously this donkey braying he was doing was starting to piss me off and his thumb was fondling the hammer of his pistol. The only thing that kept me from taking a shot was my wife was just a carlength away from him and 20yards who knows about a possible stray buckshot. Seriously if I had my 98k that day I would have shot him as he in my mind was a threat. all he had to was raise his gun maybe belt high and he would have been able to shoot my wife. PLus he was my size 6ft+ 200lbs and he was pointing a gun at a middle aged couple and a girl not 3 minutes earlier. Sometimes I wonder to this day what kind of trouble that madman is up to and probably should have stopped it then and there.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
But, that was not an immediate response reaction.
Those people on Flight 93 had time to consider what was happening. They had some phone contact with people on the ground and some idea of what was happening elsewhere. They had time to discuss this amongst themselves and make the decision to rush the cockpit.
Not the same as a gunman entering the room and opening fire.
From one report, at least one classroom had the presence of mind to block their classroom's doors when they heard gunfire, and another group locked themselves in a teacher's office.
I'm betting many talking heads will bring up Flight 93 in the days coming, but it really does not compare to this situation.
I wasn't saying they should have done what the passengers of United Flight 93 had done. I was just using them as an example when there is little choice...you're dead if you don't do anything, and you'll most likely die even if you do but it's better than doing nothing.
ack-ack
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the very first defense is our minds. our mental preparation for this kind of incident can make the diff in your own personal survival in a situation like this.
If you are unarmed and are far enough away from the action to run, get away from the threat. if you can't run and the shooter is near at hand and you think have a realistic chance of killing or incapacitating the shooter, go for it. Failing that, seek cover first, or concealment second if you have no other option.
pre-think this kind of thing. you don't have to be some kind of crazy survivalist extrahunk about it, just give it a little thought. this should be taught in schools.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
pre-think this kind of thing. you don't have to be some kind of crazy survivalist extrahunk about it, just give it a little thought. this should be taught in schools.
Apparently you are unfamiliar with the current state of American education system. Survival? Violence, even in self defense? Potentially violating the rights of the mad gunman in your midsts? Would never get funded.
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Ain't nothing like "Zero Tolerance"
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Originally posted by Halo
Especially from you law enforcement and military veterans -- What can unarmed victims do to save themselves before help arrives?
Find cover and stay put. If you are behind a door, lock it. Most of all do not try to be a hero.
As for tactics..Un-armed vs. armed. I would find cover and try to get a good veiw of the attacker. If I can move with out the bad guy seeing me and place myself closer to him/her, I would. Then I would wait, watch and listen. I am looking for the bad guy to reload. Catching them on the reload levels the playing feild somewhat.
Now that stated above has a ton of "IF's" that have to happen to make that work. Truth is, if it is your time to go..it is your time to go. I have a friend of mine who is a police officer. He has been in two shoot outs. The first one, after re-turning fire his weapon jammed and could no be cleared. While he is behind cover trying to clear his weapon and return to action the bad guy is walking up on him shooting. He would have been dead. Except the bad guy ran out of ammo right as he came around on my buddy. My friend was able to tackle the guy and subdue him.
Second time around was at a birthday party in the park. A group of kids started fighting and one of them pulled a gun. He saw this and drew his off-duty weapon. He commanded the guy to drop his weapon. Insted the guy aimed it at him. My friend opened up. In the end my buddy shot eight times hitting the bad guy six. Why so much? Because the guy stayed on his feet and kept shooting while he was being hit with 165gr JHP .40S&Ws. The bottom line is when your ticket is up it will be punched. Luck of the draw. Skill only plays a small part in it.
-Sp0t
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the only remotly realistic ways of fighting back i can think of are:
students hear gunshots in the next room and figure , rather than barricading our door, we'll get beside it with something heavy and club the next person who walks through...
or,
someone who happens to have a knife on them sees the shooter coming out of a room just up the hall, and rushes him.
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Originally posted by Flit
Ain't nothing like "Zero Tolerance"
ah, so teachers should just stand by and let kids fight it out between themselves? very easy to get very ugly in that case.
not that i have anything against schoolyard scuffles, but...a fight better not last any longer than it takes for someone to break it up - the first time - the school better get the kids to sort out the trouble before it gets worse. and make it very clear (especially once the kids are old enough to start doing real damage) that if they were a few years older, someone would be going to jail.
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Originally posted by SuperDud
Get a concealed carry permit.
I concur. And use it if you have to, don't be afraid of the chance you'll get a liberal judge & jury. Better to be alive in court than dead.
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If someone wants to kill you you, they can do it with a screwdriver, a box cutter, a baseball bat, a bar stool and countless other objects. If someone wants to kill 50, they require a more substantial weapon. Thats where I part company with the NRA. The right to bear arms is not the right to bear mass destruction and I resent the NRA's attempts to obscure that. Where are they today? No words of wisdom from the NRA? Where are the lobbyist of the NRA? Wouldn't it be cowardly if they didn't speak out in this hour or tragedy?
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Originally posted by tedrbr
If not prevented by state law, I'm betting school policy prohibits it and you could be expelled for having one. Just seems to be a standard policy.
My college has pretty standard rules on this, the only place for my weapon is IN my locked vehicle while on the campus. That is the only situation that does not run afoul of school policies or state laws concerning my CCW --- not specified in writing by the rules (they would never put anything like that in print), but when you read the dos and don't (and between the lines), I'm covered.
Some schools go so far to prohibit guns anywhere on school property, including private vehicles. Could still get you expelled, even though such a policy may be in conflict with state laws. But, who's likely to have the better lawyer?
My school says you can get special permission to carry. Doubt they really let anyone do it.
Oh, and BTW, the NRA is calmly sitting on their hands. Unlike you, they don't want to come out and be the *******s who say so soon that an armed campus is a polite campus.
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If i where there i would become a human meat shield, i wouldn't think of it any other way, I am not depressed or anything. But who wouldn't go down for a friend knowing that you will be saving someone that bullet that you took? It was a 9mm..... i would of seen that and just wailed on his behind. It carries 9-12 rounds something like that unless it wasn't a normal glock. this would of turned out very much differently... there may of only been 2-6 dead and more wounded but not more than half of a class. Than the school... now they have to tell parents they wanted their children to go to class so that they would not miss.... but what really happened? 31 kids will never go back to that school again and the outcome??? They still ended up closing the school. Un-needed loss of human life? you betcha. Wrong way of dealing with something of this severity? yes, they had 2 hours and in those 2 hours not one guard could have trapped him in a room so that the violence could not have spread??? They couldn't move all the kids into the cafeteria under the table's which i am imagining was on the bottom floor? This is the fault of the virginia tech board of administration, They will be facing serious consequences for this. My final point, I hope this sends the government a message to pass a law stating that any serious situations on campus should be dealt with as professionally as humanly possible, with the safety of the students being the top priority.
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Originally posted by vorticon
the only remotly realistic ways of fighting back i can think of are:
students hear gunshots in the next room and figure , rather than barricading our door, we'll get beside it with something heavy and club the next person who walks through...
or,
someone who happens to have a knife on them sees the shooter coming out of a room just up the hall, and rushes him.
;) I may not have my taurus on me at all times, but...
I'm personally curious as to how many letters to the editor will be written for tomorrow's edition that will be anti-gun biased.
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truedat truedat
"devild0g" TEMPORARILY *COUGH COUGH* Suspended from aces high due to CC being stolen :mad: :O
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Oh, and BTW, the NRA is calmly sitting on their hands. Unlike you, they don't want to come out and be the *******s who say so soon that an armed campus is a polite campus.
That's because an armed campus wouldn't stop a nut with a weapon of mass killing. Nothing short of martial law would've prevented today's tragedy. In the NRA's interest that anyone should be able to possess weapons able to take out an average infantry unit, we have given lunatics access to weapons of mass death. I just want to hear again how this protects our nation. I just want to hear again how so many people are killed with slingshots and knives. I just want their lobbyists to have the guts to crawl out from their rock when apathy is OFF. Bet you, that militia is AWOL.
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Originally posted by BTW
That's because an armed campus wouldn't stop a nut with a weapon of mass killing. Nothing short of martial law would've prevented today's tragedy. In the NRA's interest that anyone should be able to possess weapons able to take out an average infantry unit, we have given lunatics access to weapons of mass death. I just want to hear again how this protects our nation. I just want to hear again how so many people are killed with slingshots and knives. I just want their lobbyists to have the guts to crawl out from their rock when apathy is OFF. Bet you, that militia is AWOL.
Prevent it? No. You really can't prevent anything.
But I can guarantee you that CCW's would have limited the severity.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Prevent it? No. You really can't prevent anything.
But I can guarantee you that CCW's would have limited the severity.
No you can't. It may have been worse as the guy may have planned it more precisely and used a faster gun. Nothing could have prevented it. The guy wasn't worried about dieing. All he needed was efficiency, and the NRA protects his right to it.
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Yeah this all leads to the phrase that goes something like "An armed america, is a safe america" (sorry if i killed that phrase)
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Why should the NRA say anything now? Would you listen?
The heads of Virginia Tech and nearly every campus in the country and most of the students and a large percentage of our population have adopted the philosophy of the NRA's opposite numbers: you don't need and shouldn't carry a weapon in public......
From the news reports....the shooter didn't have weapons of massive power....he had two pistols....a 9mm and a .22. He also had a totally defenseless group of students. No guards, no armed citizens to contend with.....because our campuses have taken a largely political stance on gun-control. Despite the "statistics" about the large number of guns owned in this country, most of our citizens, even ex-military types with training in combat and the use of weapons, are afraid to carry in public because of stigma attached to gun carry and the legal problems involved in actually using it in self-defense.
If nothing else comes from this horrible incident there should come the realization that the police CANNOT protect you. All they accomplished today was to storm Norris Hall after the fact.
Nobody could do anything.....but we don't trust our fellow man to react competently with deadly force in such a situation. The public outcry will pass more useless laws which will accomplish nothing except to punish the innocent.....and our campuses will remain tempting targets for nutcases and psychopaths.
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Some good insights and recommendations. I'm thinking not so much of concealed carry permits and everyone armed as I am of perhaps trying to encourage mass counterattacks by people who are being shot at.
Modern weapons can throw a lot of bullets, but if only one or two potential victims can reach attacker(s), perhaps attacks can be stopped or significantly reduced, at least within close ranges. Cowering or running away if, say, within 20 feet only gives the attacker(s) more confidence and victims.
Not saying I would be able to do it. But hoping many people could if encouraged and trained that way as part of the curriculum of surviving in the modern world.
Some have mentioned karate or other self-defense with minimum weaponry except what is at hand, e.g., chairs, clubs, knives, whatever. Such training could also inculcate a measure of self-sacrifice that might be unprecedented. It might suggest something as universally available as ball bats or baseballs in strategic locations as potential emergency self defense assets.
Unfortunately even the best of preparations may not deter suicidal attacks. But better preparations could significantly reduce the damage.
For example, gunman enters classroom of 20 students. None resist. All are potential victims.
Another example: gunman enters classroom of only six students. Immediately they scatter, attempting to surround him, throwing books or anything else at him, reacting immediately and attacking him simultaneously from as many directions as possible.
Will he be able to hit and incapacitate a bunch of screaming yelling hostile people coming at him from all over the place? Certainly not as easily as them all sitting at their desks or lying motionless on the floor. The attacker's odds of success are suddenly and dramatically reduced.
It's all about temptation and control. The more obstacles in the way of a an attacker, the less likely he will be able to seize or stay in control. The more obvious the difficulities are to an attacker, the less likely he will attack.
Flight 93 is probably our best recent example of heroic innocents fighting back. If that awful time ever comes when death is imminent, better to die rushing toward it than running away from it.
This is in no way a criticism of any victims. It is a suggestion that maybe we need to reexamine our whole philosophy of passive resistance to attackers and replace it with active aggressive training in self defense not only individually but in group situations. We all need each other more than ever.
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You cannot someone who feels no pain no pity, its sad but their is nothing you can do but fight with all your might. The bastard is lucky he killed himself if he hadn't we would not of given him the death penalty but a tormentuos life in prison. I bet even some of the inmates might hate him
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(http://www.foxnews.com/images/277021/14_62_041607_shooting1.jpg)
looks like someone was arrested based on their race.....
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THAT IS NOT FUNNY GET OFF OF THE THREAD NOW AND DELETE YOUR POST! THAT IS OFF-TOPIC AND EXTREMLY DISRESPECTFUL
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Halo, I would not recommend, nor should anyone else recommend, charging an armed gunman.
All you will do is wind up with blood on your hands.
If you do know that someone has a gun, don't assume he won't use it.
He might have a .22 in one hand-and a shotgun in the other. He might be ready for someone to try a rush.
A shotgun will stop a rush, gruesomely.
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That's because an armed campus wouldn't stop a nut with a weapon of mass killing. Nothing short of martial law would've prevented today's tragedy. In the NRA's interest that anyone should be able to possess weapons able to take out an average infantry unit, we have given lunatics access to weapons of mass death. I just want to hear again how this protects our nation. I just want to hear again how so many people are killed with slingshots and knives. I just want their lobbyists to have the guts to crawl out from their rock when apathy is OFF. Bet you, that militia is AWOL.
Statistically, the most successful mass killers use a can of gasoline and a match, a box cutter and a 757, or a truck and a load of fertilizer and some diesel fuel. If you just look at "multiple" vs mass you can add alcohol to the list. More people still die each year from lightening than such firearm killings, usually a lot more, this year perhaps a few less. That's a fact.
As tragic as this is for the victims and their families, everyone reading this post has more to fear from a receptionist who stayed too long at the local happy hour and then decided to drive home. As I've said before, for me personally (and I bet more than a few reading this post) I actually know someone -- at least two individuals in my case -- who died from alcohol. How many from a firearm homicide? For me, 0, and I bet that's the case for most posting on this board. There will be days where, in America, an extra 30 or so people die DUI related deaths than on others, but no 24/7 media circus when they "only" die by the regular handful. Look at statistics and demographics -- no gangbangers here -- and firearm violence for all intents and purposes is statistically nonexistent. And even in the worst inner city neighborhoods you chance of dieing in a firearm homicide are very low statistically if you are not in an active gangbanger.
And, had CCW not been shot down last year by VT school officials, the extent of the killing would almost certainly been less. The killer was comfortable with the fact that he could chain shut the doors, methodically walk down the hall and kill people with no concern of anyone stopping him for some time. Frankly, that is the only way he could be as effective as he was. The real pros, terrorists, seldom waste their time on something as relatively ineffective as a fiream -- particularly in places like Israel where the victims shoot back. Even so, were I a student today I would likely not be sufficiently concerned about such threats to feel a need to go the CCW route. It's just extraordinarily rare in a population of 300 million.
As for the NRA not speaking out -- their opposite numbers are already playing this tragedy for all its worth. And, I'm sure you won't see heavy reporting on the CCW angle. This tends to be a fact free public debate.
Charon
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Schools, dorms, military barracks and hospitals are smorgasbords for mass murderers. They're all housed concentrations of defensless people, not unlike airliners. Of course the airlines figured out that it was good to have plainclothes employees that secretly carry firearms.
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(Halo, I would not recommend, nor should anyone else recommend, charging an armed gunman.
All you will do is wind up with blood on your hands.
If you do know that someone has a gun, don't assume he won't use it.
He might have a .22 in one hand-and a shotgun in the other. He might be ready for someone to try a rush.
A shotgun will stop a rush, gruesomely.
(unquote)
I'm assuming the gunman would use his weapons, but wondering if he could handle x number of people rushing at him from different directions at the same time.
Home defense threads highlight the difficulty of people defending themselves against a single intruder, let alone more than one coming at them at the same time.
The numbers and odds of success would vary a great deal depending on the situation, but it is so discouraging to keep hearing reports of large numbers of people losing so much to single or few attackers by not resisting at all.
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Originally posted by soda72
(http://www.foxnews.com/images/277021/14_62_041607_shooting1.jpg)
looks like someone was arrested based on their race.....
Looks like someone doesn't understand police procedure. Just because the handcuffs are put on you, that doesn't mean you are under arrest. They were looking for a suspect. That guy matches the description. He was detained until his identity could be worked out. That is all. It should be noted that hostages are handcuffed too sometimes, until the police can work out the good guy/guys from the bad.
-Sp0t
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There is no greater example of the depths of the mind control the anti-gun media and politicians have over the population than this: post-911 there were those who were adamantly and stridently opposed to pilots on overseas flights being armed.
That same mindset will only gain strength in the coming days......and more people will become convinced that the disarming of the American public should go forward apace.
Reversing more than four decades of such propaganda will be impossible...individual responsibility for one's own security is a largely dead concept.
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Originally posted by BBBB
Looks like someone doesn't understand police procedure. Just because the handcuffs are put on you, that doesn't mean you are under arrest. They were looking for a suspect. That guy matches the description. He was detained until his identity could be worked out. That is all. It should be noted that hostages are handcuffed too sometimes, until the police can work out the good guy/guys from the bad.
-Sp0t
"Whether a person has been arrested depends not on the legality of his arrest but on whether he has been deprived of his liberty to go where he pleases."
I understand this may be a necessary 'evil' given the situation. However I can sympathize with the man in this picture, having gone through a similar experience myself. I was "detained" by the local police department here in Flower Mound after a drive by shooting occurred and someone was killed. My crime was the make, model and color of my car match the description of the offender, and I had the misfortune of being in the same area. I did not enjoy having police officers pointing their weapons at me. I did not enjoy having them scream at me to get out of my car and to keep my hands up. I did not enjoy hearing the reason I was being "detained" for. I did not enjoy having my hands handcuffed behind my back. I espcially did not enjoy having to kneel down on cold pavement while they searched my car. I suspect the man in that picture did not enjoy being detained either just becuase he was an asian man in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Originally posted by Halo
For example, gunman enters classroom of 20 students. None resist. All are potential victims.
.....
Another example: gunman enters classroom of only six students. Immediately they scatter, attempting to surround him, throwing books or anything else at him, reacting immediately and attacking him simultaneously from as many directions as possible.
......
Flight 93 is probably our best recent example of heroic innocents fighting back. If that awful time ever comes when death is imminent, better to die rushing toward it than running away from it.
......
This is in no way a criticism of any victims. It is a suggestion that maybe we need to reexamine our whole philosophy of passive resistance to attackers and replace it with active aggressive training in self defense not only individually but in group situations.
The first example is the closest to reality.
The second is Hollywood. Students in a classroom are not going to react in a coordinated way to a situation they were so unprepared for. Soldiers on patrol in a combat zone can respond that way most of the time..... not students in a academic environment. You may get 1 or 2 two are quick to respond, but not the group, and not in a coordinated manner.
Flight 93, as I stated before, is not an applicable situation. The people on that flight had time to learn about the other attacks over the phone and come together to plan the rush on the cockpit. It was not spontaneous or immediate. Not the same as a gunman entering a room and opening fire.
You will not change the "passive resistance" mentality that is so socially acceptable. There will be calls for gun control. For new laws. (After all, it has all worked so well against illegal drugs in this country, right?) There will be very public talking heads demanding in righteous indignation for the Powers That Be to "do something" to protect everyone from all possible senerios like this from ever happening again --- when they are not looking for scapegoats to take it in the neck over this tragedy from happening in the first place. I'd bet there will be several new catchy "sound-bites" in common use before the week is out.
Oddly enough, gun sales this month will go wayyyy up, as will applications for CCW. Happens every time something like this happens.
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2 opitons.
1. Be aggressive and suprise the gunman by leaping towards him before he ever knew what happened. This would only work if you are one of the very few on this planet who would react to a threatening situation in that manner unlike the majority who would freeze, panic or just hesitate when facing danger.
2. Run. <---- best one.
I am 90% sure that if the students in this case were armed this would _not_ have ended this bad. However im 90% sure there would be many many more minor shootings over the years as a result of arguments, fights and alcohol related shootings that would make the total ammount of dead people alot higher than with these rare shootings.
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What a tradegy.
One teacher or student with a concealed weapon permit and a pistol in their belt or bag would have saved alot of lives.
Of course the story will be twisted in a completely opposite direction. Anyone want to bet that the killer had no permit or legal weapon, and that regardless of the restrictions the anti-gun nuts want to clamp down on our rights, he would have gotten the weapon?
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After a gunman methodically executed a bunch of resturant patrons in Texas the state legalized concealed carry.
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One thing...If the guy was a chinese national, He more than likely could'nt have legally owned the guns he had(Assuming Virginia's laws are like Cali's...)
If he had been a legal gunowner, **** woulda really hit the fan.
But, I'm kinda thinking he isn't(the way gun laws are.)
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Originally posted by Warspawn
What a tradegy.
One teacher or student with a concealed weapon permit and a pistol in their belt or bag would have saved alot of lives.
Of course the story will be twisted in a completely opposite direction. Anyone want to bet that the killer had no permit or legal weapon, and that regardless of the restrictions the anti-gun nuts want to clamp down on our rights, he would have gotten the weapon?
Flipside is the pro-gun nuts will soon be coming out screaming about carried concealed... oh wait :)
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It's odd that this particular incident, with 32 killed by the gunman, is attracting so much attention, when approximately the same number of people die by gunshot every day in the US on a "normal" day.
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The only defense is a good offense!
Basically don't let the liberal gun law advocates strip us of our right to keep and bear arms!
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Soda,
Here's your WAAAAHHHH poor me T-shirt. If you can't figure out that the Police do not have instant TV super hero like abilities to determine who is a real suspect and who is not when both match the general description then you have a serious problem with reality. Sorry you got offended by the situation but they had only so much info to go on and acted on it accordingly. Of course I'm sure you'd rather they just walked up to your car and accepted that one of them would likely die from the suspect getting a first shot or several off into them. They aren't paid to die just so you aren't offended.
As to the rest of the thread here. Folks are not in a fight type of mind set in their everyday lives. They lack the mindset that they could be confronted by violence of any type. Most folks simply react with fear, panic and disbelief.
The single best reaction is to not be there when the violence is going on. If you remain you provide more victims.
Second best it do the baricade and deny entrance to your area.
Last when confronted with certain death, get mad and do whatever you can to survive. That still takes a mindset that is not present in most people who are unacustomed to dealing with violence and accepting that they will be hurt in the process.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Flipside is the pro-gun nuts will soon be coming out screaming about carried concealed... oh wait :)
Armed defenders are the only thing that would have stopped these insane murderers short, the Luby's cafeteria shooting, the Columbine killers, the amish school shooter, the VT shooter etc. There is absolutely nothing else that could do it, the police? They had two hours advance warning in this last shooting; I don't blame them for bungling anything either. Based on the information they had the shooter had fled.
Why did they arrest the oriental guy in the picture? (yes when you are detained by police you are under arrest, your freedom to leave has been "arrested")
Because he fit the description of the shooter, profiling is how police work. Would it have made sense to slap cuffs on a 90 year old white woman with a walker? Only if the shooter was reported to be an old white woman with a walker...see how that works? lol
If the professor who gave his life to allow his students to escape out the window in this latest shooting had been armed, maybe he could have killed the perp right then & there. We know what happened to him while not being armed....he was shot to death through a door. The news media never picks up the story & runs with it when one of these idiots is stopped short by an armed defender....like the shooting out in the mall a couple months ago. An armed off duty cop stopped the killing spree before he could rack up 30 or more kills. He had to stop shooting un-armed people & concentrate on his gun battle with the cop. Lives were saved by an armed defender, plain & simple.:aok
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The idea of everbody packing pistols is a fantasy "fix", because several things come to kind right away, #1 kids dont carry firearms, and they are often the target of these kinds of shootings. I dont think its practical to think every teacher is going to be a part time cop, with a loaded gun in the classroom. Never going to happen, thats all pie-in-the-sky-musing, and not a serious strategy.
...and no, I am not for strict gun control. I think it does little in the way of stopping violent crimes or mass killings by insane psycopaths.
That being said, I have a real problem with this idea of "lock downs" in schools. The only thing this does is fix the victims in place for the shooter. The schools (and other places) needs a "fire alarm" approach, you exit the buildings immediately, and *RUN FOR YOUR LIVES*, you dont sit in place. The "lock down" strategy imho, has never been proven to reduce any fatalities.
If a school or business gets a "shooting" alarm, the stratgey should be for everbody to get the hell out of there, right now, and exit the area. The police need a strategy of IMMDIATELY sending the 1st officers on scene to engage the gunmen, with no stopping to muse about grand plans. They MUST get in quickly and isolate the shooter. If your a traffic cop, and you are 1st there, you get your sidearm out and you get moving. Plan SWAT ops after you have the luxury of time. It does no good to have a picture perfect SWAT entry after two dozen kids are dead inside.
My 2 cents.
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If you have time to barricade yourself into a classroom you have time to shoot the guy as he breaks in. Lots of lives would have been saved.
People are not stupid.. despite all the hand wringing from the gun control crowd people will get the idea and gun sales will go up.
the police and the gun control advocates can't save anyone.
lazs
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Originally posted by Squire
The idea of everbody packing pistols is a fantasy "fix", because several things come to kind right away, #1 kids dont carry firearms, and they are often the target of these kinds of shootings. I dont think its practical to think every teacher is going to be a part time cop, with a loaded gun in the classroom. Never going to happen, thats all pie-in-the-sky-musing, and not a serious strategy. My 2 cents.
Of course not. Kids aren't who we're referring to; no one things you should arm children...get real lol. Allowing the adults who are of a legal age to carry is not pie in the sky musing. I carry my weapon everywhere I go, including onto school grounds when I pick up my two kids from their schools. If the adults who are stable, solid citizens & employees of the school were allowed to carry weapons onto school grounds without fear of prosecution some (obviously not all) would & it only takes one aimed round to stop the killer. In my minds eye, I see my daughters at the end of the psychopaths gun & I would pray to god that someone armed was there to battle him & divert his or her attention.
I would trust a CCW teacher to be armed in the classroom with my kids & I'd feel a lot more secure knowing they were there than just one 4'11" female cop, just out of the academy who is only a few years older than the students in the school. At least they have a free, fire arms trained, security force in the CCW carriers.
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Rushing an armed assailant...
I just don't see that working. These are school kids, in a "gun free zone", not soldiers. I'd venture to say 99% of their exposure to violence is all on TV... and we all know TV fights have very little to do with reality.
I train in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (submission grappling) & Muay Thai (kick-boxing).
I still carry a pistol for a reason. There's no substitute for it... except maybe a carbine or rifle...
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I think Charon has a point ,he argues that Gun crime in THE USA is rare,And I don't doubt the truth of what he says.So if Gun crime is rare,why are ppl on here arguing that they need a weapon to protect themselves,against a rare crime?
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I think Charon has a point ,he argues that Gun crime in THE USA is rare,And I don't doubt the truth of what he says.So if Gun crime is rare,why are ppl on here arguing that they need a weapon to protect themselves,against a rare crime?
Gun crime is not overall rare, just rare outside of inner city gang neighborhoods and rare outside of thug on thug crime. In fact, outside of these areas it's entirely on par with Europe and with less violent crime in general, as far as I can tell. While it is rare, and I don't sweat leaving the door unlocked by accident overnight and get in a panic over it, IF an intruder does break in my life and that of my family are too important to leave to chance. Ultimately self defense, the ability to progtect My life, is a critical human right. Kind of an all or nothing thing.
And, if my job required me to work in such neighborhoods, or if I had to live in such neighborhoods, then firearm ownership for protection would mean something else entirely since there doesn't seem to be any real effort to address the social problems leading to inner city poverty and crime.
Charon
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Ya, I have heard it all before.
Its fine you pack everywhere you go, good for you. I have no problem with that either.
But you are at WORK during the day, you are not standing in your kids classroom standing guard. You wouldn't be there.
...and if they have time to barricade themseslves in the classroom, they have time to run like hell out of there!
As a side issue on school security, thats another debate, and perhaps its high time to see an increase in armed security at schools.
I also have no problem with a teacher who say has a CCW with a gun in class, so I will elaborate my point:
If you were on a mass killing spree, and even if you were in a school where you knew a teacher might be armed...you are just going to know who to shoot 1st. After that, its all fish in a barrell, and you know it. So, the only sensible thing to do, is to have a policy of immediate evacuation, coupled with aggressive police response, and better school security methods, including armed guards, who hopefully would be quality people, not 5 dollar an h.r guys that would not risk themselves when called upon.
In any case the question was how to defend in the case of a mass shooting, and there are many states, and countries (other than the USA) where teachers and students cannot have CCW, so its not a serious "fix" in many places, and questionable even in places where gun laws allow CCW.
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Originally posted by Hazzer
I think Charon has a point ,he argues that Gun crime in THE USA is rare,And I don't doubt the truth of what he says.So if Gun crime is rare,why are ppl on here arguing that they need a weapon to protect themselves,against a rare crime?
since I can die only once that would be one time to many...
If you compare with the what happened recently in Utah vs this situation, having the ability to carry a concealed firearm seems to make sense to me now....
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Originally posted by Hazzer
I think Charon has a point ,he argues that Gun crime in THE USA is rare,And I don't doubt the truth of what he says.So if Gun crime is rare,why are ppl on here arguing that they need a weapon to protect themselves,against a rare crime?
Because no one wants to be in that less than 1% of people murdered.
When your completely defenseless & facing imminent death, saving your own life is what the normal person is thinking about, not the fact that it's a rare occurrence that they are facing.
Disarming the populace is not the answer, the old "when guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns" statement has been proven in the large cities here in the U.S. they have the highest crime rates per capita. Not just gun crime either, it's a domino effect. Criminals like nothing better than subservient victims.
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Originally posted by Squire
Ya, I have heard it all before.
I also have no problem with a teacher who say has a CCW with a gun in class, so I will elaborate my point:
If you were on a mass killing spree, and even if you were in a school where you knew a teacher might be armed...you are just going to know who to shoot 1st. After that, its all fish in a barrell, and you know it.
Like fish in a barrel after the one possibly armed person is killed & I know it? Hardly, I know the opposite! Your implying the person armed for self defense would make the victims more susceptible & that's not true. You think no one armed for self defense makes them somehow LESS like fish in a barrel? How so?
I say the shooter is going to able to concentrate less on shooting the unarmed if there are armed defenders in the area. Am I saying one armed school employee will be able to stop a mass murder? Not in so many words, I'm saying they will have a chance to fight back & it's possible they could stop it. If an armed teacher had pulled out a weapon & stopped the latest fruitcake at 31 instead of 32 it would be worth it. Don't you think?
Nobody is going to open that fridge door & shake that last person murdered & say wake up #32, it's not really your time. But if an armed defender was there maybe they could have saved #32, I doubt an armed defender could have made it worse. They may have even been able to stop it at 2 after the first shooting in the morning.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Halo, I would not recommend, nor should anyone else recommend, charging an armed gunman.
All you will do is wind up with blood on your hands.
If you do know that someone has a gun, don't assume he won't use it.
He might have a .22 in one hand-and a shotgun in the other. He might be ready for someone to try a rush.
A shotgun will stop a rush, gruesomely.
If I am gonna die I want the people who find me to see the wounds came from the front, not the back. And if I wind up with blood on my hands after charging a gunman, well that is after all the point of the whole exercise.
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Did you see how many freshmen were killed? These were kids right out of high school, in their second semester of college.
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Originally posted by soda72
"Whether a person has been arrested depends not on the legality of his arrest but on whether he has been deprived of his liberty to go where he pleases."
I understand this may be a necessary 'evil' given the situation. However I can sympathize with the man in this picture, having gone through a similar experience myself. I was "detained" by the local police department here in Flower Mound after a drive by shooting occurred and someone was killed. My crime was the make, model and color of my car match the description of the offender, and I had the misfortune of being in the same area. I did not enjoy having police officers pointing their weapons at me. I did not enjoy having them scream at me to get out of my car and to keep my hands up. I did not enjoy hearing the reason I was being "detained" for. I did not enjoy having my hands handcuffed behind my back. I espcially did not enjoy having to kneel down on cold pavement while they searched my car. I suspect the man in that picture did not enjoy being detained either just becuase he was an asian man in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Awww you poor thing.. Get over it dude. It happens. They were doing their job. What if you were the bad guy? What if they did not pull you over and go though a felony stop? How many more ppl would have died? Your feelings were far lower on the list of important stuff to care about. The safety of the public around you was far more important. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made. In this case is sounds like it was your pride and your holier than thou attitude towards everyone else.
That guy was cuffed. I see that. What I also see is that he is safe. The officer has his weapon holstered. He is not being overly rough on the guy. You have never been in combat or a shooting before. That much is clear.
I am going to compare this situation to combat. The reason is that there are lots of ppl running around and tons of shots are being fired.
In my helicopter it is not uncommon to hear three to four different radio chans at once. All of them with different views on the battle. You have to fly in, mark the good guys, find the bad guys. All the while you are receiving directions from two different guys. Each with their own emergency. The bottom line is when things start going down it happens fast. Info falls though the cracks. So you have to do the best you can do with what little info you have to go on.
When hell breaks loose commo breaks down. It is a common problem that men and women far smarter than me have been trying to fix. So when things like this go on and people are in danger the police are forced to act a little tougher.
Lets play "what ifs". The police did not know this guy. All they heard was that it was an Asian male. School hasn't started yet (thank God) so the campus isn't as crowded as normal. The police respondm they see an Asian guym they detain him. Two things happened here, one for sure, the police might have gotten the bad guy. That is the might. But for sure this kid is safe. That is the for sure part. He is with the cops he doesn't have anything to worry about now.
Now the "what ifs". What if this guy in the picture was the bad guy? Take yourself back to the first few mins of the shooting and tell me how you can tell this guy from the bad guy? I know what your thinking...if I had a better description I could. Problem with that. You are going on the description that was gave to you buy a frazzled student. So it isn't going to be spot on. Instead you are going to get "He was a tall Asian guy.". That is about it. Descriptions are not accurate. If they were, they would be called pictures. Until then the police of to use the TLAR method. That Looks About Right.
-Sp0t
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I certainly think there needs to be an increase in the availability of security personnel in these types of incidents, wether that comes from the police, local security personnel, or staff... is the debate I suppose, but I think the larger questions are how to improve over all policies and security measures to minimise deaths.
I will say that "CCW" is no more of a magic solution than those that say "ban guns", I dont see either as being a fix, and I will leave it at that, I have no desire to have a long gun control debate, im not for it (gun control), and I will leave it at that.
...In any case like I said before, its not just about what can be done to improve the odds in US states without strict gun laws...but to other places as well. My real problem is this idea of "locking down" which I think is the same as saying "if there is a fire, stay put in the building untill the fire fighters arrive", its a nutty idea, the shooting starts on another floor, and your telling the students to stay put? ughh, no. You run like hell. To the exits, right now.
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Originally posted by indy007
Rushing an armed assailant...
I just don't see that working. These are school kids, in a "gun free zone", not soldiers.
It's happened before, a gunman was subdued by students in a high school cafeteria. And these students weren't school children.
Police can't protect us, it's not their job. Police aren't security, police are a reactive force, security is proactive.
In the US every capabable adult has the constitutional right to be an armed citizen cop in public places. And private business have the right to not allow guns to be carried on their property. But they should be aware of the ramifications of disarming their law abiding patrons.
Why on earth wouldn't you want to be in the company of gun carriers who aren't criminals or idiots?
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Originally posted by Dago
If you are not armed, run like heck. If running isn't an option, pray. People will generally not attack or swarm an armed shooter unless they are within arms reach at the beginning.
Depends, a shooter at one of the High Schools were I used to work walked up to 1 kid, said "cancel x-mas" and shot him in the face.. he was then swarmed from all directions and beaten with backpacks full of books, stabbed with a pen, then had his gun taken and was shot with it.
Swarming a single shooter could be effective if the students knew how, backpacks, ipods, pencils, chairs... anything you can throw or swing. A few of the ghetto kids wore their backpacks full of books across their torsos as a type of bullet resistant vest as they rushed the guy, which I though was pretty quick thinking.
But these were ghetto kids used to gunfire, mostly cholo gangsters.. not upper crust college students.
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XMarine, not to Hijack, but could it be possible, with the way things are with kids in school, that when they saw the shooter go up to the victim, they had an idea as to what was gonna happen? Especially in an LA school?
They might have been almost forewarned.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Did you see how many freshmen were killed? These were kids right out of high school, in their second semester of college.
It's a sad thing they were killed but they were NOT kids. They were adults. These people are the same age as half the people in the military. You going to call half the military kids??? For crying out loud, I was in combat at the ripe old age of 18 and be damned if anyone called me a kid. Granted some of the people interviewed after the incident acted like little kids, but the fact remains they are all adults.
Those that survived just got a harsh wake up call. The world is a dangerous place no matter where you are. You want to survive, take responsibility for yourself, and stop waiting for the rest of the world to take care of you. The real sad part is most of them will never learn that leason, and people think a college education makes them smarter than everyone else.
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4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
XMarine, not to Hijack, but could it be possible, with the way things are with kids in school, that when they saw the shooter go up to the victim, they had an idea as to what was gonna happen? Especially in an LA school?
They might have been almost forewarned.
Absolutely. Plus these kids, probably ALL of them, have been to a party or something where shots have been fired, its not new to most of them.
There was also a "collective conscious" response by these kids, immediately one kid yelled "he shot my homeboy, kill that...." as he charged the shooter, which motivated others to join in. The shooter kid was pelted with cd players, burritos, books, milk cartons... anything they could throw, which actually did a pretty good job of disorientating him.
Neither kid died BTW, the victim lost his jaw, the suspect had multiple broken bones, and a punctured lung.. but the grand prize was a colostomy bag and he lost the ability to have an erection.
Edit:
These are often called "AVI" incidents.
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4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.