Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on April 17, 2007, 02:19:08 PM
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I was so frustrated by the large step backwards to ah2 beta in texture color brightness and contrast that I have hardly played the new version until today.
I gave up and upped my gamma to 1.5 so I could see the ground.
so it was playable and fun but afer very short period I began to get eyestrain. it gets worse the longer I play under these conditions.
I also have slight astigmatism and that most likely makes it much worse on my eyes even with corrective lenses on which I almost always wear when on the computer.
so again I disagree with the artistic choice of ultra dark textures for the terrain but the consequences of having these dark textures are harder on my eyes than they are on my artistic sensibilites.
I asked on ch 200 if others were suffering simlar eye strain and many others are aso affected.
its not just the art critic its the general arena population having much difficulty with this new version.
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it really strained mine for the first few days but I seem to have adjusted now and I dont notice it as much for some reason
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It is kind of like wearing sunglasses at night. At first it sucks, but after awhile you adjust to it.
-Sp0t
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It seems to me as though each time a new terrain loads they've made minor adjustments and it's getting slightly better each time... or else it's just my imagination.
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Originally posted by BBBB
It is kind of like wearing sunglasses at night. At first it sucks, but after awhile you adjust to it.
-Sp0t
Not refuting you so much as the idea: "2.10 darkness" adds nothing to the game. Being problematic for no benefit, it should go.
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agreed.
but do they hear us? are we communing with the yippy-yucks?
so many pleas for mercy, so much silence. so few explainations.
perhaps they don't love us anymore.
:(
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Originally posted by Citabria
I also have slight astigmatism and that most likely makes it much worse on my eyes even with corrective lenses on which I almost always wear when on the computer.
so again I disagree with the artistic choice of ultra dark textures for the terrain but the consequences of having these dark textures are harder on my eyes than they are on my artistic sensibilites.
I asked on ch 200 if others were suffering simlar eye strain and many others are aso affected.
I also have a slight astigmatism.
It doesnt cause me headaches but I have oticed my eyes will actually start to tear up. if Im in a prolonged dogfight And not out of sadness. either lol
You getting any of that also?
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Doesn't bother me as much as it seems to bother yall..... of course that may be because of the fact that I close my eyes when someone attacks me. That being the case my eyes get alot of rest during flight.
:noid
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my eyes don't tear up but its more a feeling of strain like your eyeballs are lifting weights or somthing.
I love playing this game and that overcame the artistic differences I had but I can't log on and play much and I don't really want to when its uncomfortable and straining.
this is a danger of terrain tile work. back years ago when I made ozkansas I asked squirl if I could use his pacific tiles and if I could modify them as well...
he mentioned to exercise much caution when modifying them in having two much contrast on the screen or making things difficult to see and such things. he was an expert terrain tile maker and made many tiles for AH1 but has moved on from ah2.
He said his chief complaint when terains were causing problems was eye strain and he was very mindful of it.
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At first I was pretty unhappy with the new terrain. It has grown on me. I have had to adjust my gamma to make it a little easier on the eyes. No eye strain problmes though.
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Cit I'm having a rough time also. Maybe because I'm older but picking up d depth perception against terrain is tough. My eyes tire also.
I've set up Gamma on my ATI X800XT and calibrated a good Sony 22" CRT Monitor as well as raised Gamma in game to 1.7. Terrain looks flat to me and from the air except for the trees all else appears flat and solid green color with very faint shades a bit lighter.
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Originally posted by Hajo
Cit I'm having a rough time also. Maybe because I'm older but picking up d depth perception against terrain is tough. My eyes tire also.
Mate, sounds like you've got a slight astigmatism too.
I've got a lack of depth perception, a 3D effect if there is blue or red over the dark green background, and my eyes feel like they've been stabbed after about an hour.
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Not sure if my eyes are getting tired or if it just trying to adjust between the bright sky and dark ground, but I definately get a headache now.
Thought it was an illusion as I played for several hours yesterday. But got the same today and didn't play nearly as long.
Certainly didn't get the headaches prior. Hope its not the game art causing it...love the game.
RASCAL
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I played just about every day for a long time and since the update I've been on twice if that's any indication of how enjoyable it is..............
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Gotta admit...the overall lighting makes it difficult on my eyes and it's hard to take more than 30 - 45 minutes of flying at a time. Gamma adjustments help but depending on the sun position, it requires constant tweaking.
Be patient folks, HTC is updating the old terrain tiles with new ones. I'm sure that everyone...well, most folks...will be satisfied after a few tweaks are worked out.
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you could argue that the terrain is all dark and therefore not causing eye problems but you have to look at the whole picture....
these pics are unmodified except they are desaturated to more clearly show how the dramatic contrasts are affecting players eyes.
here is the new version. note the dramatic difference in brightness and the extreme contrast between the sky and the ground. changing gamma makes the ground lighter but it makes the sky even brighter too. the relationship and therefore the problem lies in the new tiles and its interaction with everything around them. you have to consider the iris is expanding and contracting the entire time the player is playing on this terrain while transitioning between looking at the bright sky and the literally now blinding sun and the dark terrain.
(http://p38fester.sitesled.com/003_terrgreyscale.jpg)
heres the old terrain which did not have players reporting eyestrain or difficulty of any kind with the tiles. note how the terrain the sky and everything is very uniform in brightness and contrast...
(http://p38fester.sitesled.com/p47cockpit%20greyscale.jpg)
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I was just saying to my squaddys that my eyes were hurting. maybe it's just us old farts though.
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its not
back when I made Ozkansas, Squirl, the terrain texture artist who made the pacific tiles I was modifying warned me very seriously about this.
if the tiles arent right its gonna hurt the eyes. the complete scene needs to be uniform that means ground and sky.
its all laid bare in the pic of the old terrain textures and sky and how everything blends together.
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I think I have the solution!
Just always fly inverted :p
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Originally posted by Citabria
back when I made Ozkansas,
That was the best map ever used in AH.
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Originally posted by Toad
That was the best map ever used in AH.
yup that map was well thought out.
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Originally posted by Citabria
you could argue that the terrain is all dark and therefore not causing eye problems but you have to look at the whole picture....
these pics are unmodified except they are desaturated to more clearly show how the dramatic contrasts are affecting players eyes.
here is the new version. note the dramatic difference in brightness and the extreme contrast between the sky and the ground. changing gamma makes the ground lighter but it makes the sky even brighter too. the relationship and therefore the problem lies in the new tiles and its interaction with everything around them. you have to consider the iris is expanding and contracting the entire time the player is playing on this terrain while transitioning between looking at the bright sky and the literally now blinding sun and the dark terrain.
heres the old terrain which did not have players reporting eyestrain or difficulty of any kind with the tiles. note how the terrain the sky and everything is very uniform in brightness and contrast...
seems to me then, that the quick fix would be to simply darken the sky colour. won't fix the darkness, but at least upping the contrast won't hurt anyones eyes.
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Another partial solution is to up your graphics cards brightness level (which is really brightening the ultimate black level it will output). This denys the cards ability to output really dark colors and makes the terrain easier to see and the contrast between terrain and sky less eye straining.
This isn't quite the same thing as gamma: if you look at the curve, upping the brightness sets a minimum black level that can be generated. Upping the gamma just non-linearly bumps dark stuff, but it can still go to zero (total black).
I have mine set to do both: gamma of 1.9 and brightness (black level) of +50. If you do this, make sure to reduce the contrast setting so that the curve doesn't saturate on the bright side. (Of course one should do this only for the full screen 3D profile, not the normal Windows profile.)
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Yea,
Sorry but - this is NOTHING like real life. It is a flight sim so, not sure what the thought process here was.
Has anyone flown that puts out the art in this game? Seriously not trying to be rude but , geeeeesh it's SO far off it's incredible.
After about 1.5 hours, my eyes are hurting when there is furballing going on.
I can't furball like I used to - it eventually hurts too bad as I find myself squinting to find the ground.
I have a BIG monitor so that's not the issue either.
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Originally posted by JB88
.
perhaps they don't love us anymore.
:(
It's that stuff known as $$$$$$.
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I like how a plane fly's under the horrison and is harder to track and see.
before it was to easy to jump someone with alt,and see there shape no matter the skin used,or the ground color. "or water"
Now just need to find a happy medium.
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Ya my eyes hurt me now too. Love the game, but I dont plan on ruining my vision playing it.
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Time to get the HTC gang to come fly for several hours in a row and see what were going thru .
Yea its getting painfull to log any amount of time now.
Its not our monitors guys .
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Yep same here.. My eyes hurt after playing for any long periods of times now. The old version I could play hours at a time and never have any issues.
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After about 30mins of playing my eyes start hurting and if I dont take a break my head starts hurting a bit around the temple area.
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I thought it was unbearable too, but then I went to my vid. card's software (nvidia 6800 GT), and adjusted the gamma for all channels, while AH was running, then when it got bearable for Aces High, I saved it as "AH2", went back into the game, and adjusted gamma from within AH. It worked. Not only is the terrain clear, it is very very nice and rather gentle. Believe it or not, it is as clear as AH1 and the original AH2, with much better trees, and NO eyestrain.
So everytime I want to play Aces High, I select "AH2" (right click on desktop, select properties etc. etc.) and I am good to go. When I am through, I just go back and select "standard" which has the defaults setting.
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It's definitely buggin' me. I upped gamma but it's still giving me headaches.
That or it's hypnotoad...
(http://www.macorama.net/hypnotoad_widget.jpg)
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Anyone know good settings for a GeForce 6200?
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Originally posted by vorticon
seems to me then, that the quick fix would be to simply darken the sky colour. won't fix the darkness, but at least upping the contrast won't hurt anyones eyes.
don't forget the sun darken that too
and the clouds
and the airplanes and vehicles also
thats not good enough.
they should put the old terrain tiles back until they fix the new ones if it is going to take a long time.
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Not that this needs my input, but by the grace of someone else I was able to fly for a while yesterday.
There is a definite problem with depth perception. It's gone, there is none unless you're right on top of something.
Aspect ratios seem to have changed for GVs. In other words they appear smaller at close range than they did before.
Hills, when you can make them out are more like flat walls.
But I'll say this, the lack of a response from HTC tells me they are aware of the problem and scrambling to fix it. Otherwise they would have posted what to do to correct the problem on our systems. They wouldn't leave us hanging. Be patient. It will be fixed.
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first night after the new patch got splitting headache played for about hours straight.. never get headaches no alcohol related events either
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
Its not our monitors guys .
It is , I'm currently on an other PC than my usual one and the configuration is crappy like hell ,before correcting the contrast was so off the picture was almost black and white.
I'm trying to tune this Dell monitor since 1 hour now.
I think the correct way to calibrate this junk is to drop it in the nearest trash.
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Something funny just hit me. Remember The Jerk with Steve Martin?
"Im gonna kill you Nathan R. Johnson!"
:D
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Originally posted by Max
Something funny just hit me. Remember The Jerk with Steve Martin?
"Im gonna kill you Nathan R. Johnson!"
:D
It's Navin.
And I am very very surprised and a little worried about the deafening silence from HTC on this.
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how many of you see this : link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gammatest.jpg)
correctly ?
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All this gamma stuff seems kind of stupid. All of the sudden 1000 people have their monitors set incorrectly, whereas for years it wasn't a problem.
I've worked in IS for many years, and insisting that the customer is the problem is a bad idea and a real easy way to find yourself in big trouble.
Occam's Razor, people.
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Color temprature UP
Turned mine from 6500K to over 8500K
Set gamma to 1.5.
Looks good in AH now. Everything NOT so dark!
But geeezzz it still has an affect on everything else...................
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Originally posted by scottydawg
All this gamma stuff seems kind of stupid. All of the sudden 1000 people have their monitors set incorrectly, whereas for years it wasn't a problem.
I've worked in IS for many years, and insisting that the customer is the problem is a bad idea and a real easy way to find yourself in big trouble.
Occam's Razor, people.
How many of those 1000 people have ever checked their calibration ?
For your information a brand new monitor IS NOT calibrated.
Plus I don't count 1000 people posting but less than 20.
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I guess you kinda missed my point, perhaps I wasn't being clear. Up until 2.10, monitor calibration was not an issue, and as far as I know isn't an issue for many other commercially available games, i.e. the default settings are playable. Now it is. Instead of pointing the finger at the players, it might be wise to assess the changes made to 2.10 i.e. the terrain textures and attributes and revert or change accordingly.
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Originally posted by Max
Something funny just hit me. Remember The Jerk with Steve Martin?
"Im gonna kill you Nathan R. Johnson!"
:D
"I'm picking out a thermous for you...
Not an ordinary thermous for you..."
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(http://www.visionary-voyager.com.au/corel/photopaint/eyeball/images/fig10.jpg) (http://www.visionary-voyager.com.au/corel/photopaint/eyeball/images/fig10.jpg)
:)
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Originally posted by Hajo
Cit I'm having a rough time also. Maybe because I'm older but picking up d depth perception against terrain is tough. My eyes tire also.....
I've also had substantial problems with depth perception in flight -- to the point of several level flight augers. I havent done that for a long time otherwise.
Since patch also find it difficult to maintain smooth tracking in fights with frequent transitions from sky to earth backgrounds. And on the ground, the shading that comes with elevation changes (like being jsut a little darker on the lee side of a hill) seems under emphasized. That might be why depth perception seems off.
I hope the brightness differences even out with patches.
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Originally posted by scottydawg
And I am very very surprised and a little worried about the deafening silence from HTC on this.
We listen to the feedback we are receiving and we consider our options as objectively as possible. I said in the last patch announcement that we were working on a more extensive patch and that's what we're doing. Our lack of comment shouldn't be worrying. It just means our options are open.
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Originally posted by Pyro
We listen to the feedback we are receiving and we consider our options as objectively as possible. I said in the last patch announcement that we were working on a more extensive patch and that's what we're doing. Our lack of comment shouldn't be worrying. It just means our options are open.
Thanks Pyro.
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Originally posted by Pyro
We listen to the feedback we are receiving and we consider our options as objectively as possible. I said in the last patch announcement that we were working on a more extensive patch and that's what we're doing. Our lack of comment shouldn't be worrying. It just means our options are open.
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thanks for the acknowledgement pyro
i'll be looking forward to it.
:)
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Sounds like the patch should be a step in the right direction... plus they've apparently been working on it for more than a few days, so I'd expect some significant upgrades.
:aok
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Originally posted by Stang
Sounds like the patch should be a step in the right direction... plus they've apparently been working on it for more than a few days, so I'd expect some significant upgrades.
:aok
and after that 50% will be happy and the other 50% will whine about something else ...
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Originally posted by Eagler
and after that 50% will be happy and the other 50% will whine about something else ...
eaglr posted again.
:D
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Originally posted by straffo
How many of those 1000 people have ever checked their calibration ?
For your information a brand new monitor IS NOT calibrated.
Plus I don't count 1000 people posting but less than 20.
you KEEP missing the point,
We didnt have this problem before is the fact which has caused most annoyance,
we didn't have to fiddle around, we didn't have to calibrate, it just worked
get the idea :eek: :aok
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I don't get it. Explain it to me again Laurie.
What is it that you are trying to say?
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Originally posted by Laurie
you KEEP missing the point,
We didnt have this problem before is the fact which has caused most annoyance,
we didn't have to fiddle around, we didn't have to calibrate, it just worked
get the idea :eek: :aok
Certainly you never had a problem , but does imply it was right ?
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Straffo, I do graphics and Photoshop work for a living... my calibration was (is) right.
No other program or application i use has suddenly needed monitor recalibration.
None.
2 + 2 = ?
I worry that all this "advice" about gamma is going to deflect the search for the real problem.
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Originally posted by Yknurd
I don't get it. Explain it to me again Laurie.
What is it that you are trying to say?
we never had this problem before from AH, so why should we have it now.
lol
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huh? one more time please.
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Originally posted by Dux
Straffo, I do graphics and Photoshop work for a living... my calibration was (is) right.
No other program or application i use has suddenly needed monitor recalibration.
None.
2 + 2 = ?
I worry that all this "advice" about gamma is going to deflect the search for the real problem.
I don't get it , my monitor is also calibrated and in the past I always had a custom profile for AH now I don't need it ... go figure ...
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I think there is possibly a good number of people who are having a problem but are silent about it. I wasn't going to say anything because i upped my gamma from a 1.5 to a 1.8 and that helped considerably with being able to see things on the ground. I will agree with you guys on the eyestrain, my eyes feel much more tired after just an hour than they used to.
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Hmmm, I wonder... Straffo, do you have an LCD or CRT...?
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A crappy LCD since the death of my beloved Eizo :cry :cry
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after playing for a few nights the terrain is definately too dark.
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TO Dark.....please fix.... love the new stuff..... i just want to see it.....
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It is to the point where it hurts my eyes to fly. Before it was bad enough when the sun got low, but now even with gamma set to 1.3 its either too bright when your flying into the sun or too dark when not looking at the sun (ie the rest of the terrain).
However why are we all surprised? The screenies they posted showed the darker atmosphere weeks before the release.
(http://www1.hitechcreations.com/images/firefly/ff2.jpg)
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Gotta admit, that is one fantastic looking tank.
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Originally posted by straffo
How many of those 1000 people have ever checked their calibration ?
For your information a brand new monitor IS NOT calibrated.
Plus I don't count 1000 people posting but less than 20.
My monitor is calibrated correctly, and to me AH is way too dark. Enough so that I have to set gamma adjust in the game to 1.4 or 1.5, whereas it should be correct at 1.0 (for a correctly calibrated display system).
The link you posted really is only part of calibration (basically brightness or black level). Here is a more thorough process that covers color temperature, contrast, black level, and gamma:
http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html
Most decent CRT's are calibrated decently and result in a total display gamma of 2.2 (the sRGB standard).
LCD monitors . . . that's another matter. Their color response is much different than CRT's, can be all over the map, and can have display gamma curves that significantly deviate from the sRGB standard.
Just because dark level looks fine doesn't mean the display gamma isn't all screwed up and thus that images will look completely different on that system than on a system that has a display gamma curve adjusted to the sRGB standard.
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Originally posted by straffo
I don't get it , my monitor is also calibrated and in the past I always had a custom profile for AH now I don't need it ... go figure ...
one word.
french.
;)
:p
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As in back from service?
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Originally posted by Brooke
My monitor is calibrated correctly, and to me AH is way too dark. Enough so that I have to set gamma adjust in the game to 1.4 or 1.5, whereas it should be correct at 1.0 (for a correctly calibrated display system).
The link you posted really is only part of calibration (basically brightness or black level). Here is a more thorough process that covers color temperature, contrast, black level, and gamma:
http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html
Most decent CRT's are calibrated decently and result in a total display gamma of 2.2 (the sRGB standard).
LCD monitors . . . that's another matter. Their color response is much different than CRT's, can be all over the map, and can have display gamma curves that significantly deviate from the sRGB standard.
Just because dark level looks fine doesn't mean the display gamma isn't all screwed up and thus that images will look completely different on that system than on a system that has a display gamma curve adjusted to the sRGB standard.
I checked mine and it's pretty close!
Still have to adjust color temp up toward or above 8500K and adjust gamma to 1.5 to see anything well in AH????????????????????????
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Monitor Calibration never was an issue for me this patch. I suspect a lot of guys have not the decent setup's. Which could explain the problems people are having.
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Not touched my monitor or vid card for the current terrains, nor can I admit to having eye strains or headaches, but mebbe its just me.
Though I will admit the terrain is abit too dark, but Iam managin fine.
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Originally posted by Citabria
I was so frustrated by the large step backwards to ah2 beta in texture color brightness and contrast that I have hardly played the new version until today.
I gave up and upped my gamma to 1.5 so I could see the ground.
so it was playable and fun but afer very short period I began to get eyestrain. it gets worse the longer I play under these conditions.
I also have slight astigmatism and that most likely makes it much worse on my eyes even with corrective lenses on which I almost always wear when on the computer.
so again I disagree with the artistic choice of ultra dark textures for the terrain but the consequences of having these dark textures are harder on my eyes than they are on my artistic sensibilites.
I asked on ch 200 if others were suffering simlar eye strain and many others are aso affected.
its not just the art critic its the general arena population having much difficulty with this new version.
think thats bad my gamma is at 3.0 so i can stop augering....just cant see
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Yea, my old CRT can't handle the new colors. Brightness is already maxed out, and I've tried various combinations of settings to gamma, etc., all to no avail. Everything is too dark.