Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Chairboy on April 18, 2007, 09:44:29 AM
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I've found an interesting looking plane on Barnstormers, and I'd like to take advantage of the experience here to get some perspective on this and get a sanity check.
http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_163113_+1979++PA-28-161.html
First off:
The engine is run out. My thought was to get the data on compression, oil consumption, static RPM, and whether or not he's done any oil analysis. Based off that, I'd be able to determine if the engine would be fine now, but I'd be budgeting for an overhaul in the near future.
I'll get a copy of the March 07 annual if, after talking with him today, I want to pursue this. Knowing that it's only part of the story (for instance, is the A&P his neighbor who just rubber stamps it, or is there some evidence that a spar or tail AD is about to come due?)
What I'd like from y'all is:
1. Feedback if my assumptions above sound reasonable, and if I'm missing anything.
2. Ideas for other things to check/ask about before heading out to visit the guy.
3. Warning signs to look for.
Thanks!
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Getting a copy of the annual isn't going to do anything for you. If the IA (IA's approve inspections in aircraft not A&P's) is rubber stamping the annual, the docs will not give you a clue about it. You need to have an independent AI do an annual or 100 hour on it to determine if the AD's are really complied with. Some can be seen as mods performed and parts numbers checked or work observed. Others can't be seen as they are repetitive inspections.
In short you need the logs and the aircraft for the IA to look at. This will not be cheap. Do NOT take the owner or his own mechanic's word for it, get it checked and a detailed inspection is the only way to determine if the AD's are done and done properly for certain. You can do an abrieviated look and take your chances otherwise as I imagine most new owners do.
If there are no oil analysis records getting one now won't help all that much unless the engine is making metal in fair quantities. That would mean an immediate overhaul or exchange.
If you have an IA that you are friendly with you can get a quick and dirty checklist from him to look at including a list of critical (expensive) AD's to look for in the logs. Again that's not proof, just log entries.
Ask about taking the aircraft to an independent IA for a look over. If the owner objects walk away.
Look for signs of corrosion in seams, bends and along areas that water will gather. Pull off the wingtips and look inside of the wings for broken, cracked, or bent ribs. Any fuel leaks from the tanks on the underside. How much fuel dye is there? A trace is no big deal, a large or dark stain is a sign of a leaking tank and sealing the tanks is a bear on the Cherokee. Look at the fuel lines and hydraulic lines. Are they hard and brittle?
Are the brakes smooth in application? Look at the disks for rust and pits. Light surface rust is OK but bad pitting, warps and deep grooves is a sign of poor maintenance. Does the parking brake hold?
Look inside the cowling for old burned on oil (old continuing leak). Are there signs of sloppy or ammature work like cheap hollow pop rivets instead of cherry max rivets or crude patches. Look at the back of the engine, are the mags the same or has one been changed recently and they look very different. Is the engine compartment area clean or full of rats nests, black electrical tape, broken wires. If it is sanitary in there it may have been steam cleaned to hide an oil leak. Old engines leak so expect to see some dirt and a little oil as well as silicone sealant on the case seams. Look at the bottom of the plane for oil stains streaming from the exhaust. Lots of oil equals bad rings and or valve guides.
Pull plugs to see if the cylinders are running uniform. Any oily plugs on the top? Expect the bottom ones to be a little oily but if it fills the plug and or drips out that's severe fouling. Look at the plug wires for condition and security. Are they loose and flopping all over the place. Does one mag have a new set of wires and the other one an older set? Do a compression check and use an independent compression guage, not the owners.
Does the engine start in a couple blades or does it grind on and on before starting rough. Does it run smooth quickly or pop and belch for an extended time.
Battery compartment, clean or corroded up badly. Cables, smooth or rusted and fraying?
There's lots to look at and your $ ahead to have your own mechanic look the bird over. Hope this helps some.
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Great advice! I'd plan to have an independent check first no matter what if I decided to buy it, I was just thinking of things to check at this stage where I'm trying to figure out if I want to make the $$$ investment in checking it out.
I'll talk to the guy today and feel him out on the independent IA, if he has any probs with it, then we're done, like you said.
Thanks! I'll report back any progress here if anyone is interested.
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Talking a couple of items here. Engine is 365 past TBO. Would be interested to see what the oil consumption is at. Also what the oil analysis records are (if the previous owner has done any oil analysis looking for metal and other goodies). What was the Cherokee used for? If it was just a Cross Country bird that 300 past TBO is certainly doable if not expected. Stable temps for hours on end with 1 power change at takeoff and 1 for descent.
I dunno, are you looking for a paste and glue special? If so, why not get a Grumman T-Cat. Has the same engine as the PA-28-161 but is a lot more fun - and this 1 is with a new engine at 150HP instead of 115.
http://www.aso.com/i.aso3/aircraft_view.jsp?aircraft_id=100047&return_url=/i.aso3/search.jspyyyyyiaso3sid=1xxxxxtypeid=1xxxxxsearchid=11315450xxxxxregionid=-1xxxxxmode=xxxxxtypeid=1xxxxxmmgid=31xxxxxmodelgroup=falsexxxxxsearchid=11315450xxxxxregionid=-1
(http://www.aso.com/aircraft/100047/ext-1.jpg)
And for all intents, it'll go the same speed at the PA-28-161 but burn a little less fuel.
Hell, try to find a Grumman Tiger for 10k more or 1 with a run out engine - point is, you can do better then a PA-28 of any type.
For instance, a Grumman Traveler. Same engine as the PA-28-161.
http://www.aso.com/i.aso3/aircraft_view.jsp?aircraft_id=106307&return_url=/i.aso3/search.jspyyyyyiaso3sid=1xxxxxtypeid=1xxxxxsearchid=11326594xxxxxregionid=-1xxxxxmode=xxxxxtypeid=1xxxxxmmgid=31xxxxxmodelgroup=falsexxxxxsearchid=11326594xxxxxregionid=-1
But does a honest 125 and still 1500 remaining on the engine.
$36k isnt bad
(http://www.aso.com/aircraft/106307/ext-1.jpg)
Wolf
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Called the guy, had a good conversation. There was one thing that caught my attention, but in general it was pretty positive.
- He's an A&P/IA, so I'm assuming he did the annual. Definately want to get a second opinion if I go to buy it. He's bought a few planes, put time into them, and re-sold them, that's the backstory to this one.
- The lowest compression is 68
- He's seeing about 4ish hours per quart. There's no oil/air separator, so that sounds pretty reasonable.
- It generates about 2325 static on a pretty standard day.
- It was a trainer for about 4000 hours earlier on in its life, recently it sat for a couple years.
- It's flown about 7 hours since, and he's going to put a few more on it before he sells it.
- He popped the plug out of the front of the crank to check for the pitting AD, and it was immaculate. That's probably a good sign about the environment it was stored in.
- He's fixed a few squawks, like replacing a leaking primer line.
- He's examined the attach point on the rear spar carry through (one of the fatigue/corrosion points) and it was fine.
- He says the inside of the wings look good. No damage, and he'd say they're an 8/10 on corrosion. I'll clarify what he means by that, I'd assume that just means the usual surface stuff that any metal structure would get. Thoughts?
So all in all, interesting. I highlighted the part that really got my attention, but if the plane has 10 hours on it since and a pair of thorough mechanical inspections (him and then my hired gun), then that might be ok.
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Chair,
Here is my thing. You got 29K on an airplane with a worn out engine. OK, so an engine will run, in the IO-320 range a minimum $15,000 + installation. Point is, look at the Grumman, 7K more - but has an engine with 1500 left on it, is faster, hasn't been sitting idle for 7 years.
Point i'm making, unless something in that engine or airframe was preserved under the engine manufactures specs and Piper's specs - something is gonna time bomb and its not gonna be cheap. And i'd much rather see you in a plane that has been flown at minimum once a month then something sitting idle for 7 years.
Call me 4083487058 and we'll jam.
Wolf
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I'll call later, but I think you transposed the "7 hours flown since" with "sat for a couple years". :D
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I'll call later, but I think you transposed the "7 hours flown since" with "sat for a couple years". :D
I read it as he got it while it was sitting for 7 years idle. Then he flew it for 7 hours before running into you.
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I would be concerned about it's use as a trainer. Since it would have been as a basic trainer the landing gear would have taken a pounding.
What did you mean by this? "- It generates about 2325 static on a pretty standard day."
A 68 compression is good but again don't take it at face value.
The crank plug is a recurring check IIRC.
An over run engine is not something that mandates overhaul as TBO is a recommendation and not mandatory for private aircraft. As long as it's holding compression and not making metal you should be OK for as much as 1000 hours over TBO. Make sure there are no other outstanding crank AD's, some of Lycoming's cranks ended up being the subject of a mandatory replacement.
Does the engine have a filter or does it use an oil screen?
I'd agree on your assumption regarding corrosion. An 8 out of 10 would be minimal corrosion. ALL of the older aircraft have some, it's a natural process and you have to stay on top of it.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
I read it as he got it while it was sitting for 7 years idle. Then he flew it for 7 hours before running into you.
Roger that, no, it sat for about two years and has had 7 hours put on it since. He bought the plane, did work on it, inspected it, and has started flying it to find squawks.
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Same rules apply my friend, whether 2 years or 7 years. Oil does not sit attached to engine parts when idle for more then 1 month. If you are in a coastal area, get it bore scoped - probably run the engine and have rust come out of the oil for 10-20 hours before stuff starts looking normal. Even though its an old engine - point is, sitting idle is sitting idle unless the aircraft and the engine were preserved per the Aircraft Maintenance Manual and Engine Manual instructions and not left to sit out with no preparation.
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Good points, thanks. I'll follow up on that, he mentioned borescope, but I didn't catch if he said he _had_ checked with one or hadn't. The engine was run while it was sitting, but that can introduce new problems even while it solves others. If it was getting started and run for 30 seconds every so often, that's probably worse than just sitting (from a corrosion standpoint) if I understand right, and that the engine really needs to spend a few minutes at high power to take care of condensation and acids and whatnot.
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This is a perfect example on Controller.com
http://www.controller.com/listings/forsale/detail.asp?OHID=1111020&guid=668FE770D8B8439BBC25EF1C73BCCA36
Lancair Legacy - for most eyes it looks like a cherry deal. Guy builds it, test flies it for 32 hours and then suddenly dies of a massive heart attack. The plane sits in his estate idle from November 2005 up until the current day. Hasn't even finished its test flight phases yet.
The guy who inherited the plane didn't do any preservation of any sort for the engine. The oil, is the EXACT same oil as they put in when they bench ran the engine back in 2005. It was never drained. It has never been run since 2005. That engine, at $55,000 is trashed. Even with 30 hours on it. And he wants 200K for it.
http://home.earthlink.net/~gatschetb/ (http://home.earthlink.net/~gatschetb/)
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What part of the country is this bird in or was stored in? Aircraft engines don't develop the same problems in say Southern AZ. as they would in Florida. If it was in dry country I wouldn't be quite so concerned with internal engine rust. Sitting would be equivalent to flying a 100 hours in actual wear so it does deteriorate somewhat.
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Bakersfield, CA
Not the driest place on the planet.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Bakersfield, CA
Not the driest place on the planet.
Are you referring to the Cherokee or the Lancair?
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Lancair is in Bakersfield. The Piper says its registered up in Castro Valley, so that could be a Bay Area airport or maybe somewhere south near Monterey. Hard to tell with the photos.
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The Cherokee is in Soledad, CA:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Soledad,+CA&layer=&ie=UTF8&z=10&ll=36.427912,-121.327515&spn=0.744738,1.834717&om=1&iwloc=addr
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Some really good advice here, I've been thinking about it, and while this might be a good plane for someone else, I think I'd like something without as many "well, IF x happens it'll be ok" caveats.
I've found this in Camarillo:
http://www.aso.com/i.aso3/aircraft_view.jsp?aircraft_id=105533&return_url=/i.aso3/search.jspyyyyyiaso3sid=1xxxxxsearchid=11346551xxxxxtypeid=1xxxxxmmgid=52xxxxxmodelgroup=truexxxxxsearchid=11346551xxxxxregionid=-1
It's a 1984 Warrior II, almost identically equipped to the plane I trained in in Santa Monica. The guy who owns the FBO where I trained is also an A&P/IA, so I'm going to call him today and chat him up about this plane. If I decide to pursue it, he may be able to do the pre-buy inspection.
Some things I really like about this:
* Fully equipped for IFR, with current signoffs.
* Used as a rental, which means it's been flying constantly instead of sitting for the last couple years.
* It's lived in Camarillo, which is pretty dang dry, since the 80s.
* Engine has 2085 hours, much better than the other one.
I'll report back with an update after I talk to the guy I know in LA about whether I pursue this.
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Chair,
Agree on it being not as much of a **** as the first one, but some of the same issues remain.
1. You've got another $15k to spend on an overhaul since it is at 2085.
But most important and what we have not heard yet, what is your mission profile? Are you dead set on a PA-28?
Wolf
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I've chosen the Cherokee because I think it meets my immediate mission requirements. First, and I don't think this is a small issue, it's a plane that I have a lot of time in. Second, I know how much space it has. The Grumman appears to have a smaller cabin, and considering my long legs and not insubstantial mass, the known comfort of the PA-28-161 is a pretty important thing.
The 2085 hours is a lot, but it's also been flown continuously, which is good. It's been on a 100 hour cycle, and if the mechanic I know blesses it (good comps, oil consumption, time to pressurize, temps, borescope, etc) then a few hundred more isn't unreasonable. It's guidance, not a line in the sand. If the engine is tired or there's anything in the logbook that gets his attention, then walking away is money well spent.
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OK fair enough. Leeme know what you decide. If yr gonna go down that way i'll fly in and do the pre-buy with ya.
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Thanks for the offer! My A&P guy from Santa Monica is going to check out the logs and I'll let y'all know what happens next. Even if we don't get together for this plane, I'll definately want to buy you a beer sometime if I'm in your neighborhood, you've asked some hard questions and given a good non-cheerleader perspective, and that's worth 2 "sounds good" anyday. :D
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Yr flying back north, which means you are stopping in the Bay Area for gas.
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Good point, this plane definately isn't the gas sipper the LongEZ is...
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He scanned in the last few years of the logs to send to my A&P for review. I put them up at http://hallert.net/misc/228wclogs/ for him to read 'em, and we'll talk tomorrow morning. If the logs look good, then he's flying out to do an inspection tomorrow with a friend of mine.
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The guy who painted the aircraft needs to learn the differance between "replaced" and "reinstalled".
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So my mechanic guy called me back after inspecting the plane, and he wasn't sure the asking price reflected the condition of the aircraft.
His squawk list started with some small and or easy to repair stuff:
1. Empty whiskey compass.
2. Throttle/Mixture controls are stiff, the lines need lubrication or replacement.
3. The latch that keeps the door from hitting the cowling is disconnected because of a missing screw.
Starts to move to the more expensive:
4. #2 com is weak and has a lot of static, #1 is ok. The NAVs were ok, but he couldn't get the DME to indicate.
5. Window seals leak. It just rained a lot down there, and there was some water on the edges of the carpet on both sides. He suspects the seal around the door too.
6. The switch for the nightlight is real loose, and the domelight is inop. Could be a lightbulb, could be something more complicated.
7. The propeller is the original. As the plane has been on a 100 cycle for all of it's 8500+ hours, the "let's file off the leading edges to take care of knicks" strategy has brought it to a point where he's not certain it would pass a legit annual inspection or prop overhaul, so budgeting a new $2800 or so prop would be wise.
8. Left main tire worn, needs replacement.
9. The gas gauges read high. The tank was 1/3 or so, but the gauges read full. The FARs only require them to be accurate when indicating empty, but I've got suspicions that they may not, in fact, do so. I fly off a clock, not the gauges, but they're useful for noticing leaks and are a definite airworthiness item.
He said one of the cylinders had great compression, one was ok, and two felt a little weak.
He wasn't confident in the last annual it got, and advised me to have a full bore annual done as a condition of purchase, including borescope inspection of the engine, checking for metal in the oil filter, etc. While he was saying this, I was getting a definite vibe that he wasn't terribly confident in this plane, and that it had been "ridden pretty hard and put away wet", to interject a colloquialism.
After this, I don't think I'll buy the plane, unless the guy takes a much lower offer that accounts for the amount of work needed to bring it up to standards.
It has a nice "classic" IFR avionics stack, but that's not worth anything if the avionics transportation device (ie, the plane) can't fly.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
So my mechanic guy called me back after inspecting the plane, and he wasn't sure the asking price reflected the condition of the aircraft.
His squawk list started with some small and or easy to repair stuff:
1. Empty whiskey compass.
2. Throttle/Mixture controls are stiff, the lines need lubrication or replacement.
3. The latch that keeps the door from hitting the cowling is disconnected because of a missing screw.
Starts to move to the more expensive:
4. #2 com is weak and has a lot of static, #1 is ok. The NAVs were ok, but he couldn't get the DME to indicate.
5. Window seals leak. It just rained a lot down there, and there was some water on the edges of the carpet on both sides. He suspects the seal around the door too.
6. The switch for the nightlight is real loose, and the domelight is inop. Could be a lightbulb, could be something more complicated.
7. The propeller is the original. As the plane has been on a 100 cycle for all of it's 8500+ hours, the "let's file off the leading edges to take care of knicks" strategy has brought it to a point where he's not certain it would pass a legit annual inspection or prop overhaul, so budgeting a new $2800 or so prop would be wise.
8. Left main tire worn, needs replacement.
9. The gas gauges read high. The tank was 1/3 or so, but the gauges read full. The FARs only require them to be accurate when indicating empty, but I've got suspicions that they may not, in fact, do so. I fly off a clock, not the gauges, but they're useful for noticing leaks and are a definite airworthiness item.
He said one of the cylinders had great compression, one was ok, and two felt a little weak.
He wasn't confident in the last annual it got, and advised me to have a full bore annual done as a condition of purchase, including borescope inspection of the engine, checking for metal in the oil filter, etc. While he was saying this, I was getting a definite vibe that he wasn't terribly confident in this plane, and that it had been "ridden pretty hard and put away wet", to interject a colloquialism.
After this, I don't think I'll buy the plane, unless the guy takes a much lower offer that accounts for the amount of work needed to bring it up to standards.
It has a nice "classic" IFR avionics stack, but that's not worth anything if the avionics transportation device (ie, the plane) can't fly.
OK,
Just off the top of my head i'm gonna run some numbers by you.
1. The empty whiskey compass will run about $200 with material and labor.
2. The Throttle/Mixture controls can either run 4 hours shop rate or 4 hours shop rate and materials. Materials for that would run around 2-300, but the lion share is shop time.
3. The latch, find a screw. Thats probably the cheapest thing here.
4. The NAV/COM items. Those have to be farmed out to an avionics shop if your A&P doesn't have one right next to him. Usually those will be charged a flat troubleshooting rate like $300. Ex: I had a motherboard on a Garmin 300 Transponder go tits up - Garmin charged $300, replaced the board and gave it a warantee. It failed a month later in a snow storm in the mountains - but got swapped out no charge.
5. Window seals, find out the recommended sealant Piper uses for that vintage. See if you can do the work and the A&P can sign it if you do it right. Its not difficult. $50
6. Change the bulb and find out. $3.50
7. Prop switch - new prop: $3000. Balancing and hanging - 5 hours labor.
8. Main tire: $350 (no ****) and you can change the tire yourself if you have a pair of jacks you can borrow.
9. Fuel tank sending unit: $300 for the sending unit. Troubleshooting - 2 hours shoprate.
10. The engine is spent - compression is just biding your time before you gotta get an overhaul or trade in the core. Either way, $15,000 + labor and the stuff on the accessories case - (mags, alternator, vac pumps, fuel pump).
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Yep, pretty much exactly the estimates my guy was giving me too. The engine is, of course, the 800lb gorilla in the room. If it had been getting good compressions and behaving in the other usual fashions, I would probably have been ok with it, but not after the hands-on evaluation by someone working in my best interest.
BTW, when it comes to buying a plane, "Doing it right" sure is expensive. :D Well, I suppose it's actually a significant savings, it's just that the costs are upfront instead of big expenses that surprise you later. I've heard of enough $20,000 first post-purchase annuals, no need to add to those statistics.
I'm following up on another plane I was looking at before I started looking to finagle a Warrior II in my budget (which seems less likely as time passes). It's a 1962 Cherokee 160 that I think I mentioned in passing before:
http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_159446_%2762+Piper+Cherokee+160.html
$32k asking, it's been listed a month. 1435SMOH, 4100TTAF. I sent the owner an email asking about how often it goes flying to start with, and to see if it's still available. It's a 4 hours drive from here, so might be worth checking out.
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I'd pass this one up. They are claiming it's an IFR certified bird so they could ask more $ but the compass alone takes it out there IIRC. The weak jugs won't get any better.
I believe a rebuild kit for the compass is only about $25.00. That one is definitely NOT rocket science either.
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Agreed, how could the Warrior be legit IFR w/o a functional whiskey compass?
So that 1962 PA-28-160 is next on the list.
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Just when you thought this thread had disapeared....
That 1962 Cherokee 160 I mentioned sounds pretty good. Wifey and I are going to drive down on Saturday to check it out. I've asked the owner to inquire with a local A&P for availability, and I'll have a specific list of things for him to check. Corrosion, compression check, etc, if my check is satisfactory. I won't touch it with a screwdriver or wrench, but there's plenty of things I can see with the Mk I eyeball to find out if it's promising enough to sic an A&P on.
I've also asked if he has a local CFI who's familiar with the specific plane available so I can do some airwork learning the systems/quirks in case I buy.
I've pretty much ruled out the two Warriors for now because of the # of hours on engine & airframe.
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You must be wracking up quite a bill with your mechanic inspecting all these planes. I don't blame you though, the airframe is your life support when your thousands of feet in the air.
On a side note, how common is it for General Aviation pilots to wear parachutes? With most GA planes being in the 30-40 year old range, something is going to break.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
You must be wracking up quite a bill with your mechanic inspecting all these planes. I don't blame you though, the airframe is your life support when your thousands of feet in the air.
On a side note, how common is it for General Aviation pilots to wear parachutes? With most GA planes being in the 30-40 year old range, something is going to break.
Other than for aerobatic training and performance chutes are not normally worn at all.
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There is a real live pile-it at my airport that not only wears a parachute, but a really neat-o sage green flight suit, with all sorts of cool patches, and a really like awesome helmet, but no one has ever seen his eyes, because maverick told him to always wear the visor down.
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Blarg, just talked to the owner. Plane has a non-approved spinner on it. They were using it to debug some issue (the word 'bandaid' was used) and have ordered a piper replacement, but it'll be about a week.
So the trip for tomorrow is off, probably.
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Found a Warrior 151 w/ the Ram 161 conversion. 6000 TTAF, 1500 SMOH. MX 300 nav/com with a VOR, but otherwise a VFR plane. $34,000. I reviewed the logs, and they look good so far, but there's one thing sticking out. 2005 annual, compressions were 75/80, 74/80, 35/80, 74/80. They replaced #3 (crack). Then the 2006 annual was 63/80, 74/80, 74/80, 74/80. Cylinder #1 went from 74 to 63 in one year.
I don't know if the rings have lined up or if there's something more serious wrong.
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6000 TTAF
Was this a trainer? If even only 3000 hours were spent as a trainer that's like 9000 hours of normal flying IMO.
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It might have been a trainer back when it started, but not in a while. The 1500 SMOH has taken 14 years to accrue.