Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: kamilyun on April 18, 2007, 05:15:05 PM
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Disturbing picture and more to come I'm sure....
Check it out on MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/).
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Wow. Now we know what he did in those two hours between the shootings.
I am torn. I want to see it to try and get an understanding of what would cause someone to do this. But at the same time I don't want the bastard to be able to promote or romanticize what he has done.
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The high body count of dead and wounded, plus the endless news cycles pretty much guarantees a copy cat or two at the very least.
Not a good thing. But that is the reality and history of such events.
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2 words...
nut
bag
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Every second of airtime, every drop of ink given to this creep increase the probability that some other creep will emulate him and try to beat his record.
Grind him up, feed him to the hogs and strike his name from the pages of our history.
Give him no notoriety or fame or recognition; it only makes things worse.
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Just the opposite Toad. We can turn this into something positive. Helping people to recognize mental illness. This kid was a paranoid schizophrenic with comorbid psychosis. Being schizophrenic or psychotic is very dangerous to that person and to others. Perhaps this will help people to recognize mental disorders and aid those who need help in getting it.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Just the opposite Toad. We can turn this into something positive. Helping people to recognize mental illness. This kid was a paranoid schizophrenic with comorbid psychosis. Being schizophrenic or psychotic is very dangerous to that person and to others. Perhaps this will help people to recognize mental disorders and aid those who need help in getting it.
Don't get me wrong, that is what should happen. But we both know the reality - people will talk about doing this, "fighting the good fight," and "making a change," for a few weeks, if that, and will then completely forget about it and move on to something else.
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yeah, i mean, thats what happens, its a terriable tragedy.. i lost 2 friends....
there are also news vans surrounding my school for the past 2 days ... harrassing students off campus.. the cho kid graduated from my highschool.. its bad news.....
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See Rule #7
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Nuts come in all colors, shapes and sizes.
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See Rule #2, #5
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What a world we live in :confused:
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There is no reason for that to get headlines other than voyeurism. I turned it off. I had no doubt before that video, he was nuts.
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This psychopath planned this for months. He would have carried out his murderous intentions even if he had to strap explosives to his body and detonate them in a crowded college auditorium.
He would have found a way....no matter what.
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He's a shame to us East Asians! (Cho Seung Hui):furious
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Hi Toad,
Originally posted by Toad
Every second of airtime, every drop of ink given to this creep increase the probability that some other creep will emulate him and try to beat his record.
Unfortunately it may already be a copycat crime. In the tape he speaks of "the martyrs Eric and Dylan" an obvious reference to Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, and the tape itself is just too similar to their "Basement Tapes" - the videos they shot prior to their shooting spree at Columbine. (The partial transcript of which is available here (http://www.acolumbinesite.com/quotes.html)) Same deal, including pointing guns and weapons at the camera etc. Also, you get the same angry Nihilism in both although Dylan and Eric were more obviously sane and sarcastic in their videos.
Unfortunately guys like Cho, Eric, Dylan, etc. are all becoming heroes to be emulated to a rising generation of angry, lost, despairing, suburban boys whose life is nothing but a fantasy world of endless first person shooters where they finally have power and dreams of revenge against the popular kids, the "snobs" and basically the world. In these rampages for a few moments they go from being powerless angry losers to the all powerful Nietzchian "ubermensch" ("We, the gods" to quote Dylan Klebold) they dream of being and spread their own misery around in their own Wagnerian conflagaration.
I'm actually surprised we aren't seeing more massacres, given that we aren't in any danger of running out of the kind of guys who perpetrate them.
- SEAGOON
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Originally posted by ghi
See Rules #2, #5
Its been covered on the news, thank you. This incident is closer to home.
As for that idiot...he's burning in the underworld.
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"the martyrs Eric and Dylan" an obvious reference to Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold,
Wow, such fantasmic BS. And people would repeal a constitutional amendment for wackos like this one..
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the more attention the media gives to this cheekbones, the more likely there will be an attention starved copy cat
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See Rule #2
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Hi Toad,
Unfortunately guys like Cho, Eric, Dylan, etc. are all becoming heroes to be emulated to a rising generation of angry, lost, despairing, suburban boys whose life is nothing but a fantasy world of endless first person shooters where they finally have power and dreams of revenge against the popular kids, the "snobs" and basically the world. In these rampages for a few moments they go from being powerless angry losers to the all powerful Nietzchian "ubermensch" ("We, the gods" to quote Dylan Klebold) they dream of being and spread their own misery around in their own Wagnerian conflagaration.
I'm actually surprised we aren't seeing more massacres, given that we aren't in any danger of running out of the kind of guys who perpetrate them.
- SEAGOON
I'll haveto look for it.
But I've pretty recently read about a study done that showed that since the release of FPS's (I beleive they used "Doom" as their reference point.)
Voilent crime among teens is actually down
I never did buy into the teen violence Vid game/TV connection.
but we as a society seem to feel the need for there to either be a reason for everything. Or a blame for everything.
When in reality I think that sometimes bad things just happen. And sometimes there are just bad people who are going to do bad things
Nut jobs like this have always been around. Just lok at history and they arent real hard to find.
Nut jobs like this are always going to be around.
And very simply put. Dispite our best eforts and intentions. There is very little we are ever going to be able to do about it.
Now I realise this isnt particularly the PC way of looking at it.
And I am in no way attepting to trivialize these events
But I beleive it is in fact what it is.
I will agree however. that the intensive attention being paid to these events. Might encourage other already existing nutcases to follow suit.
By putting out so much information and paying so much attention it it. We are in a way showing other people like this. they are not alone. There are other people like them.
It in a weird way makes them feel "normal" about themselves
It gives them a role model so's to speak to follow
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See Rules #5, #2
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This should be reported but it should be done so in a manner that will not provide the scumbag with an epitaph. It should also not be memorialized every year by the mass media. I do not want to appear to be trivialising the loss of those folks at all. I just want there to be a cessation of the inevitible Columbine massacre recreations and rememberances on the news in the weeks leading up to the anniversary date. Continually regurgitating the situation only increases the chance some whack job will think it's his turn to become immortalized in the news doing the same damn thing.
Keep it factual, not sensational and don't keep bringing it up.
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Yeah it would be nice if the media would just let it go, but I bet withing a couple of months you'll be seeing commercials for "VT Bloody Campus" the made for TV movie. It's sad but it sells and for the media it's all about the bottom line, not what's good for the general public.
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People feel better when someone pays. Even if it's not necessary.
It gives him airtime for the same reason people will enjoy saying on forums how they'd punish or torture this or that wretched criminal.
Every moment spent on people like this guy, after he's done with, is a waste of time.
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I would be interested in any statistics on how many people have been shot in their parachutes since AH came out.
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Hi Dred,
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I'll haveto look for it.
But I've pretty recently read about a study done that showed that since the release of FPS's (I beleive they used "Doom" as their reference point.)
Voilent crime among teens is actually down
I never did buy into the teen violence Vid game/TV connection.
but we as a society seem to feel the need for there to either be a reason for everything. Or a blame for everything.
When in reality I think that sometimes bad things just happen. And sometimes there are just bad people who are going to do bad things
Nut jobs like this have always been around. Just lok at history and they arent real hard to find.
Nut jobs like this are always going to be around.
And very simply put. Dispite our best eforts and intentions. There is very little we are ever going to be able to do about it.
Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not a behaviorist. Bad potty training experiences or too many video games didn't make this kid respond by shooting people. Neither was this just something that happened, it was the outworking of an evil heart and a twisted, confused, incoherent view of the world.
What I was commenting on above is the fact that guys like Cho retreat into FPS games and other fantasy worlds where they have life and death power over others and are no longer simply unhappy losers living lives devoid of meaning. Most of the school shooters (including the kid in Germany, can't remember his name) prefered life in the game world. Spend enough time there and your inability to empathize or conceive of people as anything but material objects who exist to meet your felt needs becomes solidified and the idea of actually extending the fantasy into the real world becomes more attractive and plausible.
Also, no matter how we spin it, the fact remains that in the 19th century when Guns were a fairly ubiquitous tool in American homes, we didn't have mass school shootings, and that isn't simply because kids realized the reload time of a wheelgun was too slow to be effective. In addition to not having as much leisure time to fester, the prevailing worldview made such acts inconceivable.
I will agree however. that the intensive attention being paid to these events. Might encourage other already existing nutcases to follow suit.
By putting out so much information and paying so much attention it it. We are in a way showing other people like this. they are not alone. There are other people like them.
It in a weird way makes them feel "normal" about themselves
It gives them a role model so's to speak to follow
I agree with you there.
- SEAGOON
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Every second of airtime, every drop of ink given to this creep increase the probability that some other creep will emulate him and try to beat his record.
This should be reported but it should be done so in a manner that will not provide the scumbag with an epitaph. It should also not be memorialized every year by the mass media. I do not want to appear to be trivialising the loss of those folks at all. I just want there to be a cessation of the inevitible Columbine massacre recreations and rememberances on the news in the weeks leading up to the anniversary date. Continually regurgitating the situation only increases the chance some whack job will think it's his turn to become immortalized in the news doing the same damn thing.
Yeah it would be nice if the media would just let it go, but I bet withing a couple of months you'll be seeing commercials for "VT Bloody Campus" the made for TV movie. It's sad but it sells and for the media it's all about the bottom line, not what's good for the general public.
Well, it is odd that we've only had any significant amount of this type of "glory suicide" in about the last 15-20 years or so. Corresponds well to sensational mass media coverage, 24-hour news channels hosing out infotainment and a pop culture that glorifies firearm violence beyond reality and far beyond what was common on the airwaves or screens as late as the 1970s.
I support the 1st Amendment, and believe that freedom isn't clean, cheap or easy and that you have to take the occasional bad or even horrific for the overall good. But it would be nice to see the media actually turn the microscope on it's own dominant role in motivating such events rather than focusing on the tool used in the crime. Hell, the guy even prepared his own press kit.
Oddly, there appears to actually be balanced coverage (by media standards) of the firearm angle this time around. Still puzzling over that clear change of events. The tinfoil hat in me says they don't want to make this a campaign issue before 08. Or, perhaps it's something far more simple. Perhaps the message has actually gotten out, or they've starting to pay attention to the loss of viewers or readers.
But seeing the media take a hard look at itself (I'm sure there will be a few soft 5-15 minute perspectives, perhaps) would really be a surprise. Given his clear linkage to the promotion of the event and the killings, perhaps it will be too hard to ignore. Or, perhaps they just blame the school's actions or failures in the mental health programs and bypass both firearms and the media circus as safely as possible.
I would disagree that the video games "motivate" these actions. Contribute to someone already unhindged -- perhaps. But the overwhelming motivation seems to be the publicity, and specifically so in this case. The killer himself cites that.
[EDIT: Frankly, on consideration, this guy just seems to be ****ing nuts from a society influence standpoint. He clearly wanted the publicity, but his favorite band was Collective Soul of all things, and he rails against debauchery and materialsim in society.]
Charon
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All I said was that getting killed by such a loser nerd would be an embarrassing way to go. I know it would be my last thought.
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This kid (Cho Seung-Hui) had a schizoid type personality in which, under great stress, psychotic thinking was brought out. Basically he was mentally ill and didn't see any way to improve his life. He truely felt that other people were either actively or passively preventing him for succeeding in enjoying his life. Thats why he went on his murder-suicide rampage.
With Columbine, one psychiatrist now believes that one of the killers was an actual primary psychopath, someone incapable of empathy and who felt a limited range of emotions. So thats a true mental illness (unfortunately psychopaths are untreatable).
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
(unfortunately psychopaths are untreatable).
actually they are very treatable. Just the same way rabid dogs are treatable. Every single one of those people was worth 100 chos or the psycho-dejour. Yes it is harsh but thats the way life is sometimes.
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Hi Aqua,
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
With Columbine, one psychiatrist now believes that one of the killers was an actual primary psychopath, someone incapable of empathy and who felt a limited range of emotions. So thats a true mental illness (unfortunately psychopaths are untreatable).
Respectfully, I get tired of the therapeutic culture where people are always "sick" and never simply evil, where these sick people aren't actually responsible for their actions because after all, they were insane.
If you watch or listen to Dylan and Eric's "Basement tapes" you see two young men who are very aware of what they are doing and saying planning premeditated murder for the fun of it. They talk about indiviudal people at school they hate or despise and why they hate them and how they will enjoy killing them.
For instance in one particularly famous segment of the "basement tapes" we have the following dialogue:
"They talk about several people they know. They make a comment about Dustin Harris (or Harrison), and how "everything you say is pointless."
Eric: "Shut the f**k up, Nick, you laugh too much! And those two girls sitting next to you, they probably want you to shut the f**k up, too! Jesus! Rachel and Jen.. and.. whatever."
Dylan: "I don't like you, Rachel and Jen, you're stuck up little *****es, you're f**king little.. Christian, Godly little potatos!" (Hear this and the above line)
Eric: "Yeah.. 'I love Jesus! I love Jesus!' -- shut the f**k up!"
Dylan: "What would Jesus do? What the f**k would I do..?" (he acts like he's shooting the camera with his hand, with sound to accompany it)
Eric: "I would shoot you in the motherf**king head! Go Romans! Thank God they crucified that a****le."
Eric and Dylan: "Go Romans!" "Go Romans!!" "Yeah!!" "Wooo!" (Hear this and the above 3 lines)
On the day of the shooting Rachel Scott was the first person shot and killed by Dylan and Eric and Jen Doyle was critically injured near the end. Both Dylan and Eric knew and understood exactly what they were doing, they were living out their personal philosophy of life, and meticulously planned and revelled in their actions from beginning to end. There was no diminished capacity here, in fact they were simply becoming good little Nietzchian ubermensch.
Why I wonder can't we simply accept that people like Stalin, Hitler, Eichmann, Mengele, Derzhinsky, Osama, Atta, Al-Zarqawi, Pol Pot, Bereia, Bundy, Klebold, and Harris were sane but had evil and twisted hearts, and that they thought that which is in fact evil was good and desirable.
- SEAGOON
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Seagoon,
Because sick is so much more PC than evil. There are evil people in the world, cold, calculating, extremely selfish and self centered. Nothing else but what they want matters. I've met more than a few and quite a few are a waste of protoplasm.
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Stalin, Hitler, Eichmann, Mengele, Derzhinsky, Osama, Atta, Al-Zarqawi, Pol Pot, Bereia, Bundy, Klebold, and Harris
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you think these people were mentally healthy? If thats your definition then Im guessing your not :rolleyes:
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The reason normal people don't kill other people is because (1) We can empathize with the other persons situation, and (2) we can correctly predict the negative consequences.
Eric and Dylan were sitting around talking about killing people like they were planning a party or a fishing trip. They couldn't feel any pity for the people they were about to execute, nor could they correctly understand that they were about to end their own existance. They may have known they were going to die, but didn't really understand the implications of it.
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Hi Aqua,
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
The reason normal people don't kill other people is because (1) We can empathize with the other persons situation, and (2) we can correctly predict the negative consequences.
Eric and Dylan were sitting around talking about killing people like they were planning a party or a fishing trip. They couldn't feel any pity for the people they were about to execute, nor could they correctly understand that they were about to end their own existance. They may have known they were going to die, but didn't really understand the implications of it.
Respectfully, I'd have to disagree. I hate to frame it in these terms, but I minister to a congregation of people, many of whom are paid by the US Government to directly or indirectly kill people. They are all quite capable of empathy and love, they also do not do it merely because they realize that there will most likely be few negative consequences to their actions. They do their jobs because they feel that it is their duty to do so, and they do not believe that all killing is murder or even evil. This applies to a whole host of people who have to use deadly force in the doing their jobs.
Now all of the men I mentioned in that list of infamous names felt that the killing they did was necessary as well, they felt that they were advancing just and necessary causes, and eliminating evil from the world. The Jihadi suicide bomber who blows himself up in the market place killing scores of women and children thinks that he is doing inherently good. He is advancing true Islam, and doing the ultimate good deed of becoming a shaheed, and he is surrounded by an entire community that agrees with him.
Mental "Health" is defined as "A state of emotional and psychological well-being in which an individual is able to use his or her cognitive and emotional capabilities, function in society, and meet the ordinary demands of everyday life." Someone who can't do these things is "sick." But the problem is the Nazis were able to do all of the above, so were the Soviets, so are the Jihadis. A mental health approach fails to take into consideration if the norms of that culture they are able to function in are good or evil, or whether what they do with the approval of a substantial part of that society is really "good" even though it is approved of and "normal." Smashing a Jewish shopkeepers window was "mentally healthy behavior" in Germany circa 1938 but that did not make it right.
Additionally, thirty minutes before the attack, Eric and Dylan took time to apologize to the people they loved and indicated that they knew that it was going to cause them pain and great difficulty, they also frequently indicated that they knew they were going to die, that death would end the "pain" of their existence, and that it would be better than their lives:
Eric: "Say it now."
Dylan: "Hey mom. I gotta go. It's about a half an hour till judgment day. I just wanted to apologize to you guys for any cr*p this might instigate as far as (inaudible) or something. Just know I'm going to a better place. I didn't like life too much, and I know I'll be happy wherever the f**k I go. So I'm gone. Good-bye. Reb..."
Dylan takes the camera then and begins filming Eric. Eric's also wearing a plaid shirt that's either dark blue or black with white, with a white t-shirt on underneath. His lower half can't be seen.
Eric: "Yea... Everyone I love, I'm really sorry about all this. I know my mom and dad will be just like.. just f**king shocked beyond belief. I'm sorry, all right. I can't help it."
Dylan: (interrupts) "It's what we had to do."
Eric: "Morris, Nate, if you guys live, I want you guys to have whatever you want from my room and the computer room."
Dylan adds that they can have his things as well.
Eric: "Susan, sorry. Under different circumstances it would've been a lot different. I want you to have that fly CD."
Eric: (eventually) "That's it. Sorry. Goodbye."
Dylan: (sticks his face in the camera) "Goodbye."
This was no fishing trip, it was the great and final act of their lives, they saw their entire existences as rushing towards this point - this was what they were here for. A great and final conflagaration, a Berlin-like cataclysmic final battle that even in death would prove their superiority.
What we have lost in this equation, is the ability to judge their actions and say their ends and their actions were evil because we have lost confidence that in the end there are absolutes like good and evil. Instead we frame things along the lines of "appropriate" or "inappropriate" and teach children at best stituational ethics. Don't do anything that will get you in trouble which is a far cry from saying to them "Don't do anything evil whether or not you think you can get away with it.
I know my take is going to be unpopular but ethical relativism is going to be the death of us and our culture. What we need desperately is a healthy dose of absolutes. Murder should be seen as EVIL, not merely "unhealthy." The preservation of life should be seen as GOOD and not merely "desirable."
We sowed the wind when we abandoned the concepts of sin and righteousness, and now we are reaping the whirlwind.
- SEAGOON
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^^^^
The man speaks the truth. Amen.