Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: LYNX on April 21, 2007, 03:12:53 AM
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Give this a thought. What maneuver is the high plane doing and for what purpose. Please vets ......only reply to learners.
For a better look you could use your picture viewer after doing "Save as" with the picture.(http://[img]http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1090_1177119829_whatsthismaneuver.jpg)[/IMG]
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Maybe I`m wrong,
but for me it looks like a "low-speed-over-the-top maneuver" and departure.
cheers
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I'd rather ask what he will/should do next :)
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It looks like a Split-S to me, for the purpose of gaining an altitude advantage over the enemy aircraft.
I believe this works especially well if you have some speed-advantage to begin with.
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uh oh :noid
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He's just completed a true immelman and he's letting his hopefully slower opponent complete (or attempt to complete) the same so he can do a rudder reversal on him.
At least that's what it looks like without seeing the full flight path.
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Originally posted by LYNX
What maneuver is the high plane doing and for what purpose.
If it is in MA then he is setting up a HO
If it is in EW/MW he is making a run for it after having porked the base down there.
:lol
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High Plane did an Immelman while bottom plane did a Split-S ( Split-S on 1st merge shows sign of being NEW or unknowing how to engage for most part)
The Reason the top plane did an Immelman is to slow his spped so he could turn tighter/ also to go vertical to retain E in the potential _E category in case he needs it to evade further in to the fight ...
as it looks in the picture, it appears the top plane is now in a sense doing a drag waiting for the lower plane to flop. Only thing is he is to far away from his opponent to really capitalize on it.....
my quick take of the picture.......
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If he had gone almost vertical instead of pulling the "maneuver" he'd be in a much better position for a quick kill.
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Lower plane is now attempting to do an immelmann himself so as to get on the 6 of the upper plane.
Unfortunately he blew a lot of E in the tight split S and is about to blow even more in that immelmann.
The higher plane having only done the single immelman is already starting to regain some of his E and is now in a position do do another immalman or a loop up over the top which will place him right above the lower plane just as it comes over the top.
Lower plane at a severe disadvantage here as if he keeps trying to go up verticallyto meet the now evern higher, higher plane he will stall. and will become an almost stationary target for the higher plane.and If he continues the immelman the higher plane just needs to drop on his 6
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I think more then just telling the learners what ACM is what here.
what we have is a look into the minds of the different players and how they might handle the situation or how they individually see the fight going.
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I KNOW!! I KNOW!! PICK ME PICK ME!!!! the higher planeis forming an immelman to try tomakethe other plane do the same therefore making him lose more energy....from here the plane with the alt advanage will prolly try to Ho the lower plane. :D
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how do i get the red streamers on my plane?
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The guy with the advantage is running away.
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Can't tell from the picture but if he's breaking into a double immelman I'd call it the right move, he'll be sitting on top of the enemy who seems to be asking for a rope.
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yup, if he has enough e for a second immel, then dive on con he has done the right thing. it looks however that he's busted too much E and now has to split s into the con. the con could present a low profile then reverse. fight is far from lost by the looks of this image, although the lower pilot appears to have no clue... :)
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Originally posted by Furball
how do i get the red streamers on my plane?
Lol...or are you serious?
It can be enabled at film viewer :)
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quote:
Originally posted by Furball
how do i get the red streamers on my plane?
Originally posted by frank3
Lol...or are you serious?
It can be enabled at film viewer :)
(http://www.animalaid.org.uk/images/leaders/front/fishhook.jpg)
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Bah, I've been furballed....
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Originally posted by Furball
how do i get the red streamers on my plane?
check "trail" in Film viewer.
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Please vets ......only reply to learners.
Im sorry this didn't last long :)
High aircraft performed an Immelman to avoid the Head on shot from the obvious n00b below.
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Dunno where all this talk of a Split Esse is coming from, low plane did a flat turn.
Every single one on one should start with Immlemans from both planes. The plane that doesn't do an Immleman on first merge and stays low will lose. Every time.
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what happens if you crash into the streamers? does it snag your prop up and make it stop and so you crash?
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Originally posted by Furball
what happens if you crash into the streamers? does it snag your prop up and make it stop and so you crash?
Dr. Egon Spengler: There's something very important I forgot to tell you.
Dr. Peter Venkman: What?
Dr. Egon Spengler: Don't cross the streams.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Why?
Dr. Egon Spengler: It would be bad.
Dr. Peter Venkman: I'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing. What do you mean, "bad?"
Dr. Egon Spengler: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
Dr Ray Stantz: Total protonic reversal.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Right. That's bad. Okay. All right. Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.
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My hope was to get new guys interested in the art but what the hey!
Full marks for Nhawk, TequilaChaser, Drediok, Booz, Major Biggles, Repoman and TinmanX. Perhaps some of our vets could post similar pictures to generate interest or willingness to learn.
TequilaChaser deserves the gold star even though I'm sure it's a flat turn as opposed to a split esse when describing the cons activity.:aok
First opening thread picture shows Immelman maneuver. New-ish guys may wonder why certain maneuvers have names yet we fly in a 360 universe where anything can happen. These are key maneuvers that when used at the right time will assure victory over the opponent.... or the avenue to "run away" :lol
I'll add the following 2 pictures so newer guys can follow whats already been discribed.
(http://[img]http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1090_1177160946_frame2.jpg)[/IMG]
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the victory shot.
(http://[img]http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1090_1177161036_frame4.jpg)[/IMG]
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Money shot.
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Stang and Hubs are most right here.
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Originally posted by LYNX
the victory shot.
(http://[img]http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1090_1177161036_frame4.jpg)[/IMG]
In this picture the lower con is performing what maneuver ? What should he have done instead ?
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a Cuban 7?
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Nice shot , you blasted him as he tried to get his nose around , snapshots are the best :aok
But what would you call it ? hmmm
He's went nose low , was he out of e then ? Better IMO to have kept on going low to get more speed up and then wait for the higher con to get closer and force a overshoot or do a break turn .
The way it ended looks like he was slowing down just as you have a nice snapshot and with your shooting hit percent that wasn't smart for him .
Nice pics LYNX , we can all learn here maybe .
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And, I apologize for blabbing so much here; but, in the first situation you posed, the lower guy should be dead already.
regards, T. E. Shaw
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Originally posted by TinmanX
Dunno where all this talk of a Split Esse is coming from, low plane did a flat turn.
Every single one on one should start with Immlemans from both planes. The plane that doesn't do an Immleman on first merge and stays low will lose. Every time.
Curiosity...doesn't this mean that every fight will end up in a vertical scissors?
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Originally posted by TinmanX
Dunno where all this talk of a Split Esse is coming from, low plane did a flat turn.
When looking at a screenshot of a film or viewing a film with "trails enabled", one looks for the trails to cross, this shows that a plane has rolled its lift vector, if you look at the screen shot you see that he rolled his lift vector to break, then the bottom is cutoff, then he is coming back up and into an immelman ( notice the "trails" cross again.......LYNX confirmed it to be a flat turn, I assumed it was a split-ess although the bottom of the manuever is missing from the screenshot.....
Originally posted by TinmanX
Every single one on one should start with Immlemans from both planes. The plane that doesn't do an Immleman on first merge and stays low will lose. Every time.
not true, some might pull a P I T C Hback ( or a diagonal type immelman not true vertical immelman), allowing him to cause his opponent who is doing a true immelman to loose sight of him, also allowing him to retain more E for the 2nd reversal and possibly gain angles quicker......
Sometimes one might fake a Immel at the onset but instead do a high angled zoomclimb or unloaded G climb, perhaps going into a spiralclimb to see what his opponent does or to possibly size up his opponent.......I know some on here have experienced this in a 1 vs 1 match-up........
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Originally posted by Furball
how do i get the red streamers on my plane?
tired of the pink ones?
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In answer to LYNX's question; the move looks like a low-yo-yo and would've been in any other situation except the one he was in.
What should he have done? Well, given his low E state and your high E state, if it had been me you were diving in on like that I'd've tried at the very least to begin a scissors or maintained a straight and level till just before guns then either lag rolled or barrel rolled. Any overshoot maneuver would have served and been preferable to the move he chose.
Curiosity...doesn't this mean that every fight will end up in a vertical scissors?
Regardless of how the fight "ends up" giving your opponent an alt advantage so early on without answer is going to end in trouble.
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If both planes are co E co alt, and they both do an immelman, a ho shot during the fight will be encountered immediately after the 1st merge. You might as well ho the guy before turning.
Turn and ho :aok
BTW, whenever someone does a move, you should counter it. Mirroring your opponent usually is a bad call.
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Originally posted by LYNX
In this picture the lower con is performing what maneuver ? What should he have done instead ?
run for ack, or go into mindless flat turning. if he's really smart, he would have stalled, fallen to the deck, pulled out, then run for ack, and he was still being chased when he got there, go into mindless flat turning.
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
If both planes are co E co alt, and they both do an immelman, a ho shot during the fight will be encountered immediately after the 1st merge. You might as well ho the guy before turning.
If it's a one on one, co-alt, co-E and both planes do an Immelman then the pilots obviously have enough experience and knowledge to not need to H.O.
I can count on a fingerless hand the amount of times I've been H.O'd in a situation like the one you've described above.
But wtg on attempting to drag what is shaping into a fluid discussion about tactics and moves and the first decent thread in this forum in ages into another disjointed H.O thread. :noid
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IS"t that a split s
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Here are some cheat materials for the test.
Basic Flight Maneuvers (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/maneuvers/maneuvers.htm)
Basic ACM and Merge Tactics (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/acm-merge/acm-merge.htm)
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Originally posted by TinmanX
Every single one on one should start with Immlemans from both planes. The plane that doesn't do an Immleman on first merge and stays low will lose. Every time.
A chandell is also a viable option. Schatzi and I discuss this as sort of a bonus in the merges.ahf film contained in the second page I just linked to.
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Tinman, your first statement in your last post is very flawed.
"Need to ho"...want to ho, have to ho.....play on words isn't my point. My last post still stands.
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Originally posted by WMLute
Dr. Egon Spengler: There's something very important I forgot to tell you.
Dr. Peter Venkman: What?
Dr. Egon Spengler: Don't cross the streams.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Why?
Dr. Egon Spengler: It would be bad.
Dr. Peter Venkman: I'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing. What do you mean, "bad?"
Dr. Egon Spengler: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
Dr Ray Stantz: Total protonic reversal.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Right. That's bad. Okay. All right. Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.
:lol
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Originally posted by storch
tired of the pink ones?
lol he gotcha there, Furby.
:lol
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
My last post still stands.
... is still invalid. If both do Immlemans then vertical scissors occurs. For what you want to occur there would have to be extension of at least d500 prior to Immleman, there is no way two planes could get guns on each other without extension and that did not occur in the original situation LYNX presented us with. Take your hijack somewhere else.
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the spit should do a alt F4 manuver :noid
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OK back on topic lads a quick AAR.
In opening photo I had just zoomed two cons low off picture and was extending out when I was suddenly (lack of SA) engaged by the con on screen. I thought it appropriate to Immelman as I hadn't had time to guestimate the cons "E" state which I had mistakenly taken to be a lot greater than it was. Had I had have known I probably would have done as Stang said....hindsight.
Once the con started to climb after blowing "E" in that flat turn I started to lay out the "Rope" but the con turned away (2nd picture) proving his expended "Energy". At this point I expected the con to run away, away from me or dive out underneath me. In any case the con would want his speed "Energy" back.
In the last picture we see the con stay in the fight zone (thank you very much :) )and pull a loose "low yo yo". The con is obviously inexperienced and desperate to stay in the fight. That YoYo although gaining him some "E" sealed his fate.
If we have any learners following this thread you gotta check out Murdr links...very handy info.
Do any others have good links they could share and hopefully give some of our learners a leg up ?
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Originally posted by storch
tired of the pink ones?
Oh dear... Truekill just invited me into your squad :D :t
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Awesome thread Lynx :aok I've been in the game for over a year now and am always looking to improve my meager skills. Thank you sir <
>
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and thank you Murdr, those links are just what I've been looking for.
But what is a chantell? And can I see it in a diagram? Explain why, and when it's used please.
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good heavens miss yakamoto, you're beautiful.
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Hi uptown. I have not gotten to a proper write-up for the trainers site on that yet, BUT, I pretty much have already written it in this thread Vertical turns (http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=193840). Mace's contributions to the thread are also invaluable. There is a rudimentry demonstration film of the maneuvers also.
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Originally posted by Murdr
A chandell is also a viable option. Schatzi and I discuss this as sort of a bonus in the merges.ahf film contained in the second page I just linked to.
what is a chandell,i cant find it.
~VansCrew~
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Just noticed the typo, sorry...It's "chandelle"
I just found a diagram of an immelman vs chandelle I had.
(http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/chanviml.GIF)
This is the link to the film with Schatzi and I merges.ahf (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/acm-merge/merges_.ahf)
And this is the link to the "vertical turns" film yopitchdel.ahf (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/yopitchdel.ahf)
And here is the Chandelle post from the vertical turns thread....
Originally posted by Murdr
Chandelle as mentioned earlier is a maxium performance climbing 180 degree turn. Again, it is not an off angle immelman, or a bank and pull back on the stick. Through the course of the turn, you are adjusting the to maintain your bank angle. It is most effective during high E maneuvering.
It is on par with an immelman for turn around time, but does not match the immelman in energy efficency. Referring back to the previous previous ACM film study (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186602) you could substitute a chandelle for an immelman, and expect similar results.
Where you are most likely to see this is as an opening post merge turn. Not only can it match an immelman in turn around time creating an effective tie, but it naturally creates a positional advantage for a second merge. A chandelle can take place with less altitude gain than an immelman. So in that turn match up, it will be "under" the subsequent merge.
While it does make for an awkward 2nd merge for an opponent who does an immelman, it is not without its drawbacks. It loses more E during the reversal than an immelman. If the opponent can manage the next reversal without getting shot, they should have the upperhand with an energy advantage from that point on.
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Originally posted by VansCrew1
what is a chandell,i cant find it.
~VansCrew~
a chandell is a climbing turn with a bit of a roll to either side.
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One way of looking at a Chandell is a spiral climb.
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except you don't do a full 360
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Originally posted by uptown
Awesome thread Lynx :aok I've been in the game for over a year now and am always looking to improve my meager skills. Thank you sir <>
Thank you for your comments.
If we could just weed out the HO freaks and get back to business :aok
Gotta say Murdr links are very much worth following. Anyone wishing to improve will gain valued info there.
Just keep in mind these maneuvers are not to be strictly adhered to. Your not in an air show your fighting to gain victory. If the maneuver is a little sloppy so be it just make sure the principle of the maneuver is followed.
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Still waiting for my points. :)
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Thanks for the plug LYNX. Great discussion by the way.
All the links are either from the Trainers Site (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com) or the Help & Training boards.
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Most times, yes you are right. However, a lot of times, I've been on the receiving end of the 12 o'clock front-quarter shot :mad: after merging immelman to immelman.
Originally posted by TinmanX
If it's a one on one, co-alt, co-E and both planes do an Immelman then the pilots obviously have enough experience and knowledge to not need to H.O.
I can count on a fingerless hand the amount of times I've been H.O'd in a situation like the one you've described above.
But wtg on attempting to drag what is shaping into a fluid discussion about tactics and moves and the first decent thread in this forum in ages into another disjointed H.O thread. :noid
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Thank you, Gentlemen. This is a most informative thread. Please keep these going.:aok :D
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
The guy with the advantage is running away.
when danger reared it's ugly head
he bravely tucked his tail and fled ;)
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Originally posted by TinmanX
Still waiting for my points. :)
Today's top prize goes to Tinmanx for correctly identifying the Low YoYo. You get to celebrate St, Georges day without an official holiday or booz bash.
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Originally posted by LYNX
You get to celebrate St, Georges day without an official holiday or booz bash.
It's cos we're English.... We are supposed to be stoical and reserved unlike our uncouth cousins across the Irish Sea *wise nod*.
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Originally posted by WMLute
Dr. Egon Spengler: There's something very important I forgot to tell you.
Dr. Peter Venkman: What?
Dr. Egon Spengler: Don't cross the streams.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Why?
Dr. Egon Spengler: It would be bad.
Dr. Peter Venkman: I'm fuzzy on the whole good/bad thing. What do you mean, "bad?"
Dr. Egon Spengler: Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.
Dr Ray Stantz: Total protonic reversal.
Dr. Peter Venkman: Right. That's bad. Okay. All right. Important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.
One wonders...
did he waste the time looking this up or watching the movie again to get the dialogue or...
worse yet, does he know this from memory? :eek: