Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: x0847Marine on April 21, 2007, 06:08:55 PM
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My soon to be xwifes sister, who grew up in Iran, had a good take on why a US "puppet" govt will be doomed to failure in the mid east... its got everything to do with the epic failures of US "meddling" in the region, our pals Israel, and the genuine hatred for the US govt that' has resulted.
Some examples of US "meddling" from her POV which failed on many levels:
In 1953 the CIA helped overthrow the Iranian Prime Minister, installed the Shah and helped start SAVAK, which she called "Iranian gestapo"... who were trained by the CIA and were just as brutal as Saddam's dudes, if not worse. People were rounded up, jailed, tortured, killed and the blame lay squarely on the United States shoulders as far as the "resistance" was concerned.
The Shah was a spectacular failure of US foreign policy, resulting in Khomeini taking power after the people revolted against the US "puppet", stormed the US embassy, held hostages and all that.
Since then the US is referred to as "the Great Satan" in Iran, scarier than the boogie man... untold numbers of Iranians have been rounded up, jailed and or vanished for being spies of "The Great Satan", once again the US Govt to blame as far as many are concerned. They're basically paranoid about more possible US interference and take brutal measures to keep The Great Satan out.
Khomeini taking over, that really got us perturbed, so we crawled into bed with Saddam Hussein, you know the big bad WMD guy, armed, informed and funded him... he attacks Iran with our full support. Apparently its "well known" by people in the mid east that we were fully aware Saddam used US satellite intel to gas Iranian troops... which is why "many" in Iran see supplying IED / weapons to Iraq enemy fighters is seen as "payback" and they support it.
Of course to the Iranians the Iraq Vs Iran war is just another US orchestrated attack on Iran's sovereignty by "The great Satan", millions end up dead.
For generations now Arab Muslims, Persian Christians, Sunnies and she-ites have supported their brethren against "The Great Satans" tremendous screw ups across border lines... from Saudi, Syria, Egypt..
So far, in the past 50+ years, as far as a great many people in the region are concerned, the US has done nothing but damage in the mid east, while being best friends with Israel, Saddam and the Shah.
As they see it now, when trying to manipulate Iran failed miserably, we moved next door to Iraq, and what a fantastic job we've done there making friends.
With all this history of failed US policy in the region, with the US always backing the wrong guy (Shah / Saddam) leading to unmitigated disaster, and our close ties with the "Zionists".. why will a US "puppet" govt will be tolerated today? hatred for US policy has been around for generations and lots of people are more than willing to go kill US troops to avange family members killed the in Iran / Iraq war, jailed, tortured, murdered.
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Just because she believes propoganda does not make it right.
There are two sides to that story.
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x0847Marine
you should move to Iran, where you can defend against the "great satan".
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Just because she believes propoganda does not make it right.
There are two sides to that story.
Originally posted by john9001
x0847Marine
you should move to Iran, where you can defend against the "great satan".
Ahh... the misinformed... gotta look beyond the horizons:aok
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This thread's gonna be the ugliest yet, I fear.
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oh boy this one is off to flaming start.
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*Hands Storch a beer while setting up the lawn chair*
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Originally posted by 1K3
Ahh... the misinformed... gotta look beyond the horizons:aok
keep it up with the insults...
We all know you are an expert in foreign and internal policy actions past and present in both Iran and the US.
:rolleyes:
people these days....
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John, Xmarine's only giving us his Sister-in-laws' POV, which is relevant since she's Iranian. We can't condemn X like that, He's simply showing us what the other side of the coin thinks/feels.
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Hope to see Babek's take on this. Doesn't seem like a controversial view to me, and I'm having a hard time imagining what the "other side" viewpoint could be.
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ok Frode, i semi-retract my statement.:)
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
This thread's gonna be the ugliest yet, I fear.
Oh no!
(http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3/CzarMagus/ONOESdog.jpg)
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
John, Xmarine's only giving us his Sister-in-laws' POV, which is relevant since she's Iranian. We can't condemn X like that, He's simply showing us what the other side of the coin thinks/feels.
The title of this thread really is hilarious when you think of it. Think of what they have tolerated and even elected for leaders in recent years, and the fact will evident, the Iranians are happy to elect certifiably insane leaders. What the US would put in power could only be better.
I have to wonder, why are the Iranians so easily brainwashed and suseptible to being controlled?
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I fail to see how the US armed Saddam. When you look at the weapons his army used, AK-47's, T-72 tanks etc. (And the MiGs his Air Force used) it sure looks like the USSR armed him.
As far as putting the Shah in power, yeah....the US did that, along with the Brits.
The CIA did train SAVAK, but did they train SAVAK in the use of torture or just how to gather and interpret intel? That we may never know.
Once Saddamn started using chemical weapons against Iran, the whole world knew shortly thereafter.
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If I were to take a guess, Elfie, The reason he had mainly Soviet equipment is because that is what was most easily obtainable. Alot of gunrunners all over the world, either Pro-Soviet or Pro-U.S., Will aquire Soviet equipment to sell, since it's much more prolific,(and cheaper,) thusly making things like logistics and supply easier. Also, things like the AK-47 Have a good reputation for reliability and simplicity, especially in Third-world countries. I doubt that anyone would also want to sell directly in such a situation; If you can sell/buy through a third party, and only supply money for arms, it's easier to keep your involvment covert. Directly giving him American equipment(Besides depleting our own stocks) Would pretty much mean direct American involvment. Which, at the time of the Iran/Iraq war, in the Early to Late 80's, we were still in the grip of the cold war. There was the USSR to contend with. Long winded, that's my take on your question.
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That is reasonable in regards to the AK-47, not so sure about the T-72's and MiG's though ;)
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Originally posted by Elfie
I fail to see how the US armed Saddam. When you look at the weapons his army used, AK-47's, T-72 tanks etc. (And the MiGs his Air Force used) it sure looks like the USSR armed him.
Once Saddamn started using chemical weapons against Iran, the whole world knew shortly thereafter.
The US supplied dozens of shipments of chemical weapons to "The Iraq Atomic Commision"..I think the mailing address is rather ironic don't you?..Within 4 years Iraq was the leader in WMD in the Middle East.
The US flew AWACS planes in the gulf to guide Iraqi warplanes for pinpoint strikes inside Iran.
At the same time Oliver North strikes a deal with the Iranians to swap hostages for weapons/supplies...In effect supplying weapons to both sides of the Iran/Iraq war.
Oliver North is tape recorded in a hotel room in Europe..saying to senior Iranian diplomats.."We want Iraq to be our #1 enemy"
Meanwhile irrefutable evidence surfaces that Iraq used chemical weapons on both the Kurds and the Iranians...Are the WMD chemical weapons shipments stopped?...No..They continued as well as other weapons shipments.
Did the US even look into the the reports of Saddam's use of WMD?
Nooooooo..it was totally ignored and swept under the rug until it became convenient to use this as a justification to invade under GWB's administration.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
The US supplied dozens of shipments of chemical weapons to "The Iraq Atomic Commision"..I think the mailing address is rather ironic don't you?
The US flew AWACS planes in the gulf to guide Iraqi warplanes for pinpoint strikes inside Iran.
At the same time Oliver North strikes a deal with the Iranians to swap hostages for weapons/supplies...In effect supplying weapons to both sides of the Iran/Iraq war.
Oliver North is tape recorded in a hotel room in Europe..saying to senior Iranian diplomats.."We want Iraq to be our #1 enemy"
Meanwhile irrefutable evidence surfaces that Iraq used chemical weapons on both the Kurds and the Iranians...Are the WMD chemical wapons shipments stopped?...No..They continued as well as other weapons shipments.
Did the US even look into the the reports of Saddam's use of WMD?
Nooooooo..it was totally ignored and swept under the rug until it became convenient to use this as a justification to invade under GWB's administration.
Show me links and proof that the US supplied chemical weapons. All I have seen is the sales of dual use chemicals that stopped immediately as soon as it was verified that Saddam was using chemical weapons.
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http://traprockpeace.org/rieglereportexports.pdf
Here the the Senate report on the shippments..Note the chemicals were NOT attenuated in any way and were intended to help Iraq manufacture WMD.
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ohnoes, all canadian knos secret US plans to capture whole world and steal oil.
this US bashing gets sooo old.
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Originally posted by SirLoin
http://traprockpeace.org/rieglereportexports.pdf
Here the the Senate report on the shippments..Note the chemicals were NOT attenuated in any way and were intended to help Iraq manufacture WMD.
Those are all biological components no? I knew we shipped anthrax spores to Iraq for use in making vaccines and for research purposes. I didn't know the US shipped all those other biological components. I have to ask, how many of those biological agents are solely used in the production of biological weapons?
Also, I haven't heard any reports of bio weapons being used against Iran, only chemical munitions.
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Originally posted by john9001
this US bashing gets sooo old.
Helps some of these people get through their day.
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I don't have time right now, but I will later this evening. Then I will look up each of those components in that report to see what uses each one has.
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I don't know if this will help, Elfie, but this was an interesting, and somewhat pertinent lead:
It doesn't give much insight to where it came from, but how much was made.http:///www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/cw/program.htm (http://)
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Some info regarding our Country's foreign policy in the region.
A good audio interview with a US Ambassador under Regan, regarding the Kurdish Genocide. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5690032)
Some info regarding the Kurdish genocide (played down by Regan, used by our current President.) (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/18714.htm)
From Iran's perspective. (http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/arming_iraq.php)
A great read by William Blum. Endorsed by Chomsky and Vidal. Highly recommended to anyone who wants to know anything about US foreign policy since WWII. (http://www.killinghope.org/)
Interesting stuff!
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Well crud, I accidentally did a google search with this tab up and now have to start typing all over. :cry
First let me say that I have never studied the field of bacteria, germs...whatever. So many of the terms used in that field I have no knowledge of and I don't have the time to look up every term I am unfamiliar with. As I go through the list in your link Sirloin I will be using the search term *uses of * and I will try to avoid using Wikipedia as a source whenever possible due to the recent scandal.
Feel free to explain and correct something that I err on due to my ignorance of a lot of the terms used in some of these sources.
Bacillus Anthracis - biological component. Uses, biological weapons and vaccines. I'm using Wikipedia as a source because it generally uses laymens terms and other references I've looked at back up what it says about weapon usage and usage for vaccines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthrax
Clostridium Botulinum - biological component. Uses, biological weapons and medicines including treatment for over active muscles (muscle spasms).
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/320/7228/161
Histoplasma Capsulatum - biological component. Uses, biological weapons and appears to be some sort of antibody research. Holy smokes on the terminology on this one!!
http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/full/37/7/2387
Brucella Melitensis - biological component. Uses, biological weapons, vaccine research.
http://iai.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/67/11/5877
Clostridium Perfringens - biological component. This one is so far over my head. :rofl I'm thinking it's safe to assume that it has some sort of use for biological weapons since it was included in your source. The only source I found that I even came close to being able to comprehend talked about some kind of research. Soooo I'm going with research as a dual use on this one. Added a Wikipedia source for readability, not much info there though.
http://mmbr.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/55/4/621
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_perfringens
Esherichia Coli - biological component. biological weapons, vaccine and molecular microbiology research. Using Wikipedia again just because of laymen terms.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli
Ustilago Nuda - biological component. Practically no free information on this one. Even online .pdf files need to be purchased.
continued...................
*edit* Don't reply yet!! Let me finish please. :D
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Didn't Socrates address this issue previously?
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And the saddest part is that when the politicians mess everything up down there, you the good regular folks of US have to suffer because of it.
I'm constantly dumbfounded by many peoples anti-american stance. It seems that your foreign policies have upset many people seriously and/or the local media has published anti-american articles much the same way how every other american now hates France due to the media pushing opinnions that way.
One example was 9/11 when I called everyone I knew to make sure they saw the happenings. One person I called was commenting like 'yeah good they deserve it, they had it coming for years' etc. I was screaming red-faced in the phone not believing what I heard. (The person was not finnish btw)
Granted the person changed her stance when she saw the tower collapse herself - but this showed some unimaginable hatred toward your countrymen. Are people so stupid not to see persons from nationality?
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Srry for the bad link guys:mad:
I'll try to get it right next time.
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Bacillus Subtilis - Biological component, uses biological weapons and pesticides.
http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/biopesticides/ingredients/factsheets/factsheet_006480.htm
Fransicella tularensis var. tularensis Olsufiev. Number 6 on your list, explanation given there but I'll repeat it here for those to lazy to view your source :t . A virulent suitable for diagnostic antigens. Interesting, is also used in Japanese and Korean food production. It seems the biohazard associated with this one is contested.
From Wikipedia:
B. subtilis is used as a soil inoculant in horticulture and agriculture. B. subtilis has been used for a biowarfare simulant during Project SHAD (aka Project 112).[1] B. subtilis hazard status is under dispute.[2]
Enzymes produced by B. subtilis and B. licheniformis are widely used as additives in laundry detergents.
Its other uses include the following:
-a model organism for laboratory studies
-a strain of B. subtilis formerly known as Bacillus natto is used in the commercial production of the Japanese delicacy natto as well as the similar Korean food cheonggukjang
-B. subtilis strain QST 713 (marketed as QST 713 or Serenade™) has a natural fungicidal activity, and is employed as a biological control agent
-can convert nuclear waste and explosives into harmless compounds of nitrogen, carbon dioxide, and water
-plays a role in safe radionuclide waste [e.g. Thorium (IV) and Plutonium (IV)] disposal with the proton binding properties of its surfaces
-recombinants Bacillus subtilis str. pBE2C1 and Bacillus subtilis str. pBE2C1AB were used in production of polyhydroxyalkanoates (PHA) and that they could use malt waste as carbon source for lower cost of PHA production
Clostridium tetani - biological component. I guess you could use this as a biological weapon if the intent was to cause a slow painful death with Tetanus. Also used in the manufacture of vaccines. Wikipedia was the only *readable* source I could find in the limited amount of time I have.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_tetani
Clostridium Megaterium - Biological component, uses....I didn't even see a link for Wikipedia on this one. Very sparse information, however some of the information associated with the links brought up by google suggest research uses and industrial uses.
Brucella Abortus - Biological component. Uses, biological weapons and for making tests to determine the prescence of the bacteria. Giving a Wikipedia reference as well because it talks about the bio-weapons history of this bacteria.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=269028
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brucellosis
Saccharomyces Cerevesaie - This one is a yeast, briefly mentioned here as being used in research by a biochemist. Second link is also a source on it being used in research.
http://depts.washington.edu/biowww/faculty/teller.html
http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/7/12/1169
Continued, again, please let me finish. :D
*edit* whoops, I somehow managed to copy/paste the same information twice. :o
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Salmonella Choleraesuis - Biological component, uses biological warfare, and research. I'm not going to list a reference on this one simply because the majority of the links I viewed appeared to be articles based on medical research.
Man I'm getting tired. :lol
Klebsiella Pneumoniae - Biological component, uses, I guess this one can also be used in biological warfare if you want to give everyone pnuemonia. It is also used for research and educational purposes according to this link.
http://www.microbelibrary.org/asmonly/details.asp?id=2290
Bacillus cereus - biological component, uses, bio-weapons and research. Link to one research article provided.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j5w321l210383u22/
Staphylococcus epidermidis - biological component, uses.....not sure how this one can be used as a biological weapon since it is usually non-pathogenic except in cases of those with comprimised immune systems or those using a catheter.
http://www.answers.com/topic/staphylococcus-epidermidis
Ok I'm not going through the few that are left, it's getting very late here and I think I've shown that these items are dual-use items.
I'm not saying they weren't used by Iraq to produce biological weapons.
How do you restrict the sale of dual-use items? Do you base this on the potential for misuse? Or do you sell them based on the assumption that they will be used for legal purposes? Some of these items have medical applications, do you restrict their sale because they have the potential to be misused?
Looking back with hindsight, sure, they were misused by Iraq. Is it the fault of the US that Saddam misused them? One article I saw mentioned that in 1989 it was discovered that Saddam had aggressively pursued a biological weapons program and had in fact, weaponized some biological agents. I've noticed that in your source, the latest date of any shipment is 1989. Looks like the US stopped shipments when it was discovered that Saddam was in fact weaponizing biological agents.
You mentioned that the US shipped chemical weapons to Saddam yet you provided a link for biological agents. Care to post a new link for the chemical agents? :D
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And the saddest part is that when the politicians mess everything up down there, you the good regular folks of US have to suffer because of it.
Isn't that the case when politicians mess things up, no matter what their nationality is? Look at all the suffering the German and Japanese people endured during WWII because of the Allied bombing campaigns.
Thats just one example......very sad. :(
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Originally posted by Elfie
Isn't that the case when politicians mess things up, no matter what their nationality is? Look at all the suffering the German and Japanese people endured during WWII because of the Allied bombing campaigns.
Thats just one example......very sad. :(
Yep you're right, the only thing is that in your case it's happening as we speak.
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Gee............Iran has a bad outlook on the U.S.
There will be a lot of hearts broke and a lot of sleep lost over that.
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After the revolution, there was a real effort between the newly formed Iranian govt. and the Carter Administration to stablise relations which immediately fell apart after the Shah was allowed into the US for medical treatment. The Iranians took this as well as the Bush Administration took the Teleban's sheltering of Bin Laden.
This resentment was magnified by Reagen taking an active role in support of Iraq during the first Gulf War during the tanker war phase. Iran was winning the war at this stage, and because Saudi Arabia, and the US feared the eventual Iranian victory, backed the Iraqis (who started the war) and attacked its oil platforms eventually bankrupting the war effort and leading to an armistance.
As for direct military shipments, the US only shipped helicopters directly, with the Russians and to a lesser extent the French the major suppliers. Reagan and the CIA preferred to send or arrange munitions, and technology supplies through third parties like Kuwait, or Egypt. Chemicals for weapons were supplied mostly by the West Germans, British, Chinese, and Egyptians.
Tronsky
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
I'm constantly dumbfounded by many peoples anti-american stance. It seems that your foreign policies have upset many people seriously and/or the local media has published anti-american articles much the same way how every other american now hates France due to the media pushing opinnions that way.
Envy is the reason behind it. It just boosts your self-esteem to find faults in the things you envy. I find hard to get along with those types of people on any level. Many people and the media always think worst of the US and try to find negative things about it, no matter how small. On US opponents they do their best to find positives, no matter how small.
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Chemicals for weapons were supplied mostly by the West Germans, British, Chinese, and Egyptians.
Do you have sources for that?
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Originally posted by john9001
x0847Marine
you should move to Iran, where you can defend against the "great satan".
Nah... but I'll tell you what, she'll debate you on the subject right here and I promise you'll end up looking silly.
Like it or not, agree or not, there are generations of "perceived" wrongs by the US in the mid east.. with that much bad blood in the water are people in the mid east just going to shrug their shoulders, forgive and forget?? finally give up and say "Ok Satan, we give up... you win"
Or is this fiasco going to succeed because GW Bush is charismatic clever, and brilliant leader that they will rally around? please tell me why a govt considered a US puppet will be tolerated? if you can.
Maybe you don't want to believe it, but for years our so called leaders have not been up to "only good things" in the mid east.
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There comes a time when you just have to say,
F*uck the lot of them bastards,
I feel the disgraceful and scandelous capture of 14 British servicemen and women and temporary imprisonment/torture seals my opinion of major parts of the area, especially tehran.
The trouble with West/East gulf is the fact that they are 500 years behind us in culture. they still believe in EXTREME violence and barbaric warfare. They sadly see the west as such a satan place because of propaganded envy of our technoligies and lifestyles.
The one thing i find most shocking is this,
i am 14 and go to a private school in the UK, there is one arabian boy from saudi arabia.
He said and i quote in one R.E. lesson where the nuclear arms race between pakistan/india; " i'm just glad we have armed up to defeat the west"
and
in a lunch time " i am only here with you people to get a diploma and then i'm back to the motherland"
i responded with......" so you'll come 'migrate' here, claim social benefits, p*ss off fellow students, bully small kids when they wont give you answers in tests, use our good facilities.. and then bugger off to your supposed 'homeland' when in fact you have only lived there for bloody year and 13 here.'
i was punished with a week's suspension for racism but i feel i was just so enraged by his arrogant and scandelous comments and actions i had to say soemthing.
call me right wing, or zenephobic>, WHICH I AM NOT< but i back my actions
and the UN sanctions/war in iraq,
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x0847Marine, now i'm really confused, are you saying the Iraq people elected a US puppet govt that they now don't like or the govt they elected is not the govt they wanted or are you confused or are the Iraq people confused?
i cannot debate you Iranian woman because under Islamic law she should keep quiet, wear a veil and walk 5 steps behind me or be stoned to death.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
John, Xmarine's only giving us his Sister-in-laws' POV, which is relevant since she's Iranian. We can't condemn X like that, He's simply showing us what the other side of the coin thinks/feels.
And it's not only the Iranians or other Middle-East countries that think that. Central and South American countries feel the same way about US. I think even Canada not too long ago protested about US interference into their own political process during some recent Canadian nation election.
A US President said long ago, that the US doesn't have any friends, it has interests.
ack-ack
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well , i'm just giving another POV which is relevent since i'm american to show what a different side of the coin thinks/feels.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
And it's not only the Iranians or other Middle-East countries that think that. Central and South American countries feel the same way about US. I think even Canada not too long ago protested about US interference into their own political process during some recent Canadian nation election.
A US President said long ago, that the US doesn't have any friends, it has interests.
ack-ack
Which makes us different from other countries how?
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Originally posted by Laurie
F*uck the lot of them bastards,
:aok
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Originally posted by Dago
What the US would put in power could only be better.
Let's bring back the Peacock Throne! The Shah's son is still alive and I'm sure we can re-organize SAVAK. It would be a hoot, just like the old days and I'm sure the Iranian people would love us for it like when we did this back in the '50s.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Rino
Which makes us different from other countries how?
It doesn't nor was the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to get across is that the Iranians or other Middle Eastern countries aren't alone in this line of thinking and there is some truth behind it and sometimes that truth is an ugly one.
ack-ack
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if i were king , i would bring home ALL US troops and fleets, cut off all foreign aid and revisit trade agreements, and of course secure our borders.
i don't want to save the world , let them save themselves.
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Originally posted by john9001
if i were king , i would bring home ALL US troops and fleets, cut off all foreign aid and revisit trade agreements, and of course secure our borders.
i don't want to save the world , let them save themselves.
If I were President I would close all foreign US bases, bring home all our troops. Secure our borders. I would also cut off the vast majority of foreign aid. I would use the money saved from closing all foreign bases and the foreign aid monies to find a renewable alternative energy source.
Of course then we would still be the bad guys for taking money out of the local economies and for not giving free hand outs (foreign aid).
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Korean food cheonggukjang <----- Good Stuff !
:aok
Mac
Oh... Almost forgot...
IN
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Originally posted by john9001
x0847Marine, now i'm really confused, are you saying the Iraq people elected a US puppet govt that they now don't like or the govt they elected is not the govt they wanted or are you confused or are the Iraq people confused?
i cannot debate you Iranian woman because under Islamic law she should keep quiet, wear a veil and walk 5 steps behind me or be stoned to death.
I never mentioned the Iraqi elections.. perception is reality about how that govt came about. This "war" isn't a stand alone incident, but the culmination of 50 years of US policy failure to manipulate the region.
BTW her family are christian Persians, not Muslims, ergo Islamic law doesn't apply... but I understand you not wanting to look silly.
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First I would like to ask if any regime which is considered by its own people as a puppet regime could survive a longer period of time.
In the case of Iran most people dont know the history of this country. I read in some threads here a statement of a 14 year old boy that Iran is lacking culture or by someone else that an iranian woman has to go 5 steps behind her husband or will be stoned to death. Thats on the one hand funny to read for an iranian, especially if I try to create a picture in my mind where one of my aunts would go 5 steps behind one of my uncles in Iran. On the other it shows how propaganda works.
First it should be known that Iran is a special country in the region. Unlike most of it neighbors which were created after WW1 - like Iraq, Saudi-Arabia, Jordan and so on or after WW2 - like Israel or even later after the end of the Soviet Union - like Armenia or Azerbeidjan, Iran exists for 2500 years.
It was never a colony and managed to keep its identity. So the attempt to arabize Iran failed, which resulted in the hate between semite arabs and aryan iranians.
Also the iranians changed the religion, mixing elements of the old Sassanid Empire and their religion with the Islam. The result was the shi ite islam, which is dominant in the regions of the old sassanid empire: Iran, the western part of Afghanistan and the southeast part of Iraq - like Basra.
Thats all very complicated, its enough to keep ion mind that there is a deep mistrust and hate between iranians and arabs, because of the history. So they call themself muslims but they are not friends. Both - the arabs and the iranians always wanted to be the leading nations of Islam. Today the centres of these 2 rivals are for the sunnites Saudi Arabia and for the shi ites Teheran or to be more precise Mekka and Ghom.
Iraq is on the battlefields of this conflict, where the Saudis help the sunnites (by helping the sunnite Al Kaida, who perform the suicide bombings) and the Iranians helping the shi ite militias.
But back to history.
Looking the last 150 years of iranian history, we see the Quadjar dynasty, which was corrupt and weak. This weakness was on the other hand a chance for changes. In WW1 Iran declared its neutrality but became a battlefiels, when british and russian forces on the one hand were fighting osman-turk-forces on the other hand in iranian territory.
Also the soviet revolution left an impression to the iranian people - so there were changes - like the creation of more right of the parliament (although Iran was a monarchy).
Then the founder of the short-living Pahlevi-dynasty deposed the last Quadjar Shah and declared himself the new Shah of Iran. Or Persia - to be more precise. Although the iranians always called Iran Iran - the name Persia was adopted from the ancient greek historicans by the european nations. Under the rule of Shah Reza Khan this mistake was corrected and Iran was officially called Iran = land of the aryans.
The new Shah wanted to make a modernization like the great Ataturk did in Turkey.
There was a mistrust towards countries like France and Russia and especially England. So Iran looked for new friends - finding them in the German Reich. This relation ship went on - even the uniforms of the imperial iranian army became similiar to the german design. Even the officer caps and Fritz-Steelhelmets were used in these times.
Then WW2 started and again Iran declared its neutrality. The allies wanted to force Iran to declare war to the German Reich and became part of the Allies, but the iranian Shah refused.
So Iran was attacked from the north by soviet forces and the south by british/indian forces. The country was occupied and the Shah deposed, replaced by his son. Under this puppet Iran became an ally and declared war to Germany and was used as an support route for the USSR.
These events created a deep hate against England in large parts of the higher families in Iran.
After WW2 Iran searched for a new friend who could be trusted. And they found this friend in the USA.
A relativly young country which was a superpower and the home of democracy. All this was very fascinating for the generation of iranians who were from the better families, studied in foreign countries and wanted to change Iran to a democracy. The USA seemed to be the perfect ally for this and there was a really deep trust in your country.
Also the USA helped to kick out this soviet puppet country Mahabad of the Kurds on iranian territory, which raised the trust to the new ally.
In 1953 Iran was very close to become a democracy. Not a democracy which was teached and orderd by foreigners and occupation forces. But a democracy created by iranians themself.
In an unbloody revolution the Shah was sent to exile.
Then Operation Ajax was performed by the UK and the USA.
The democracy was destroyed before it was born. The dictator was reinstalled. And the GeStaPo-like SAVAK was created with the help of the CIA and the Mossad. From this day the picture of the USA of being a nation helping other nations to vbecome a democracy was destroyed in Iran. Especially the young and intelligent generation was dissappointed and shocked by these events.
After the reestablishment of the Shah the western media showed these nice pictured of 1000 and 1 night of the florishing Iran with its nice and modern king.
In reality there were decades of horror. Every year tenthousands of iranians were tortured or killed by the SAVAK. The infamous Evin-prison was a symbol of this terror. Most of them were from the younger generation, the democrats who wanted to create an iranian democracy. And so - during these times - only the radical elements survived. Like the religious fanatics or the left-wing-radicals like the MKE or the Tudeh-party.
The bloody revolution in iran was not done because of some religious reasons. It was just the moment, when the people who had enough of the terror of the Shah-regime wanted to finish this.
The people didnt thought about the next regime - thex just wanted to eliminate the Shah regime and its SAVAK and to make sure that it could never be re-established like it happened in 1953.
Also the attack against the US-embassy was done because of this fear: The US-embassy was the command-centre of Operation Ajax in 1953 and so many iranian feared that history would repeat.
There were still innerpolitical fightings when Khomeini had arrived and when the Shah died of cancer in exile. But when Saddam and the arabs invaded Iran all inner political fightings ended. A foreign nation was attacking Iran - and so the iranian people supported the actual regime in order to fight the invader. This is a typical iranian behavior and will repeat again, when a foreign nation attacks Iran.
So in the next 8 years Iran has to fight a war against an Iraq with a terrorregime which was helped by the whole western world.
When the Iraq used gas weapons, killing 130.000 iranian soldiers with gas, the so called civilized nations used their Veto-option in the UN and so prevented sanctions against Iraq. This event destroyed the meaning of the UN as a neutral world organization for many iranians.
They managed to live with embargos and although there were so bitter circumstances, they started again to try to build a democracy.
And although the terroristic regime of the mullahs was even more dangerous than the Shah terror regime there were successes in reducing the power of the mullahs. Especially in the years after the war against Iraq and before 9/11.
Then 9/11 happened and Bush called Iran a member of the axis of evil, helping the radical mullahs to tell the iranians the propaganda story of the USA which wants to attack Iran.
So these years were a major setback for the iranian democrats - but they have not been destroyed. They are still growing in power and in the last year Ahmadinedjad got a major defeat in an important election. His time is running out. If there is no event which would rally the iranian people behind him (like an attack for example) he will be soon history.
To come back to the topic: Yes - the iranians would fight any installed puppet regime. There is no accepted alternative outside Iran.
The son of the deposed Shah is not accepted as a ruler. The so called democratic female president in exile Radjavi is seen as a traitor, because her MEK-terrorists fought during the Iran-Iraq War on the side of Saddams hordes against Iran.
This MEK/MKO is in so far interesting, because its on the one and defined by the USA as a terroistic organisation. On the other hand they are protected by US-soldiers in Iraq. They live in their military camp, which was given to them by Saddam when these traitors fought against iranians.
They perform terror-attacks in Iran - like bombing civilian targets. Like terrorists do. So there is the question why the leading nation of the War against Terrorism is protecting a large group of terroists which they define as terrorist by themself.
But this is another topic.
The mullahs of today who are ruling Iran are corrupt. They want to become richer and more powerful. Ahmadinedjad has no real power, because the real political decisions in iran are not made by the president but by the Council of the guardians.
And all this terror-suppressing regime of the Mullahs in Iran cant avoid that more and more iranians of the younger generation will continue to create finally a democracy in Iran. Without the help of foreigners, which are mostly not trusted.
The Iranian democracy must be done by iranians in Iran. Not by foreigners, not by some exile dreamers.
And I am sure that this will happen one day. The mullah regime is again in defense - like it was before 9/11.
I just hope that the coming events wont help again the mullahs.
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Originally posted by Elfie
Do you have sources for that?
Forgot Singapore...
(http://www.iraqwatch.org/suppliers/nyt-041303.gif)
Iraq Watch (http://www.iraqwatch.org/index.html)
An actual book : The Great War for Civilisation by Robert Fisk (http://www.amazon.com/Great-War-Civilisation-Conquest-Middle/dp/1400075173/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-1010037-0151317?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177324904&sr=8-1)
Wikipedia: Iran Iraq War/Chemical weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Iraq_War#Chemical_weapons)
Tronsky
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Originally posted by babek-
First I would like to ask if any regime which is considered by its own people as a puppet regime could survive a longer period of time.
In the case of Iran most people dont know the history of this country. I read in some threads here a statement of a 14 year old boy that Iran is lacking culture or by someone else that an iranian woman has to go 5 steps behind her husband or will be stoned to death. Thats on the one hand funny to read for an iranian, especially if I try to create a picture in my mind where one of my aunts would go 5 steps behind one of my uncles in Iran. On the other it shows how propaganda works.
Excellent post.
I'm still left wondering what was going through Bush's head as far as his "plan" for the Iraq govt to be accepted by the people of the region. Did he really think the elections would pacify generations of distrust / hate? these people don't trust the US one iota, but they'd make an exception this time?
All the rhetoric in the world from our govt wont make the current Iraqi govt anything but an unacceptable puppet stooge.
Apparently there's a motto going around the mid-east, especially in Iran, to "fight them over there, not here" (mocking Bush).. as many believe the US will ultimately attack Iran and its better to fight the Americans on Iraq soil.
Our military shouldn't have to pay for inept politicians putting forward a plan that even Ray Charles could see would ultimately fail in grand fashion.
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Very interesting Tronski. That kinda puts a damper on the stance that the US gave Saddam chemical weapons. Many countries sold Saddam varies *pieces of the puzzle* including the US. I have posted a link in a previous thread that showed that the US stopped the sales of dual use components after it became clear that Saddam was using chemical weapons on the battlefield.
From your Wikipedia link:
The Al Haddad trading company of Tennessee delivered 60 tons of DMMP, a chemical used to make sarin, a nerve gas implicated in so-called Gulf War Syndrome. The Al Haddad trading company appears to have been an Iraqi front company. The firm was owned by Sahib Abd al-Amir al-Haddad, an Iraqi-born, naturalized American citizen. Recent stories in The New York Times and The Tennessean reported that al-Haddad was arrested in Bulgaria in November 2002 while trying to arrange an arms sale to Iraq. Al-Haddad was charged with conspiring to purchase equipment for the manufacture of a giant Iraqi cannon. In 1984, U.S. Customs at New York's Kennedy Airport stop an order addressed to the Iraqi State Enterprise for Pesticide Production for 74 drums of potassium fluoride, a chemical used in the production of Sarin. The order was places by Al-Haddad Enterprises Incorporates, owned by an individual named Sahib al-Haddad. [8]
The U.S. firm Alcolac International supplied one mustard-gas precursor, thiodiglycol, to both Iraq and Iran in violation of U.S. export laws for which it was forced to pay a fine in 1989. Overall between 300-400 tons were sent to Iraq.
That shows that the US didn't just turn a blind eye to the sales and just try to *sweep it under the rug* as Sirloin claimed earlier in this thread.
Thanks for the links and infos Tronski. :)
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so who do you think is more brain washed?
the average american or the average Iranian?
my guess is the average Iranian.
so are Germany, Japan and Italy "puppet" govs from WW2 times? I do not think so .. but to some any htat agree with the the "great satan" would be considered puppets. Sort of like a successful black man in america being called an "uncle tom" by his uniformed/uneducated peers
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Originally posted by Eagler
so who do you think is more brain washed?
the average american or the average Iranian?
my guess is the average Iranian.
LOL
I fear this thread says otherwise.
I've watched with interest how Xmarine (in this thread) and Yeagar (in a separate thread) have been labelled and castigated for presenting opinions different from the republican/libertarian line.
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Originally posted by Curval
LOL
I fear this thread says otherwise.
I've watched with interest how Xmarine (in this thread) and Yeagar (in a separate thread) have been labelled and castigated for presenting opinions different from the republican/libertarian line.
psst
please show me the average Irainian on this board .. my guess is the average Iranian is not posting to this BBS while he/she is at work :)
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I believe XMarine was relaying the thoughts of an average Iranian when he posted the thread. His sister-in-law's.
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The Iranian democracy must be done by iranians in Iran. Not by foreigners, not by some exile dreamers.
Yep just like any democracy, if the people can not rise up and fight on their own it will never happen. No one handed it to the US colonies, it was th people that rose up against the King of England and it's police etc.
I just wish Iraq, Iran and all the other oppressed people in that region had the ability to do so, so we could get the Fk out of there and let them go back to killing each other.
I know this oversimplifies it but come on already.
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hey what about Iraqis should install a gov. inside your country, i'm
sure you all would love it ;)
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Originally posted by Curval
been labelled and castigated for presenting opinions different
Is that Bermudan for "disagreed with"?
It may just be me but it sure seems a lot of folks get all wound up about something that looks like the normal give and take of a discussion on strongly held beliefs.
Poor Yeag and X have the inner strength to overcome the incredible brutality on this BBS. I only hope they are not scarred forever.
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Poor Yeag and X have the inner strength to overcome the incredible brutality on this BBS. I only hope they are not scarred forever.
What's even more puzzling, Toad, is that these attacks are launched by people in the AH flight sim community...Just goes to show, you might share a love of something with people, but politics always divides.
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Originally posted by mars01
Yep just like any democracy, if the people can not rise up and fight on their own it will never happen. No one handed it to the US colonies, it was the people WITH THE HELP OF FRANCE, SPAIN AND THE NETHERLANDS that rose up against the King of England and it's police etc.
I just wish Iraq, Iran and all the other oppressed people in that region had the ability to do so, so we could get the Fk out of there and let them go back to killing each other.
I know this oversimplifies it but come on already.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
What's even more puzzling, Toad, is that these attacks are launched by people in the AH flight sim community...Just goes to show, you might share a love of something with people, but politics always divides.
LOL
What attacks FrodeMk3? Please explain what you meant by that....just so I'm perfectly clear.
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it's a little more complicated than that.
FRANCE, SPAIN AND THE NETHERLANDS were not fighting for the colonies they were fighting england for control of the islands of the caribbean and the sugar trade. $$$
france only supported the colonies after the americans won some major victories with the idea of getting some more caribbean bases, spain said "we want some islands too"and declared war on england, england declared war on the netherlands after the dutch used their islands to ship gunpowder to the colonies.
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The US is said to have supplied the intelligence (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5690032) to Iraq.
Babak...great post, very informative.
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Originally posted by Dadano
The US is said to have supplied the intelligence (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5690032) to Iraq.
Babak...great post, very informative.
from what i have seen Iraq could use some "intelligence"
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Originally posted by john9001
from what i have seen Iraq could use some "intelligence"
Did you listen to the interview?
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no
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why not?
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i lied, i did listen to it.
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Origanally posted by Curval
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL
I fear this thread says otherwise.
I've watched with interest how Xmarine (in this thread) and Yeagar (in a separate thread) have been labelled and castigated for presenting opinions different from the republican/libertarian line.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess 'attacked' is a pretty broad term, Curval. It could range from strong disagreement, to outright flaming. It could be indirect attacks, such as refering to a paricular someone politely, But then labeling all the other people who hold the same views with as much slander as possible.
Sorry I was late to get a response, had some business to attend to.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Origanally posted by Curval
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL
I fear this thread says otherwise.
I've watched with interest how Xmarine (in this thread) and Yeagar (in a separate thread) have been labelled and castigated for presenting opinions different from the republican/libertarian line.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess 'attacked' is a pretty broad term, Curval. It could range from strong disagreement, to outright flaming. It could be indirect attacks, such as refering to a paricular someone politely, But then labeling all the other people who hold the same views with as much slander as possible.
Sorry I was late to get a response, had some business to attend to.
No problem. Business is business.
I suppose my post could be considered a flame. It offends your sensibilities and therefore I apologise.
I was reacting to one of many with one of my own.
I gotta stop doing that.
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Whatever came of this Iranian woman? Babek? Anyone?
http://www.womeniniran.net/archives/EN/003813.html
"Iranian Woman Sentenced to Death by Stoning
Sanam Dolatshahi
July 26, 2006
Womeniniran.net
khorshid@gmail.com
A woman is going to be executed through stoning in Tehran for having an extramarital relationship, her attorney, Shadi Sadr, said Sunday.
Ashraf Kalhori, 37, who was convicted of committing adultery while being married to another man, received the stoning verdict for the second time on Jul. 17 in Evin prison, Sadr said."
I see the stoning has been rescinded.
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The US is said to have supplied the intelligence to Iraq.
Yes, the US did. That's not really news though ;)
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Does anyone remember the Goofy Gophers?
(http://www.nonstick.com/wpics/pg_goph4.jpg)
I think we should all be like them.
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Elphie,
I may be late in the game here but didn't Sadam use nerve agent against the kurds and the Iranians?
I didn't see that on the list provided to him.
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Originally posted by john9001
france only supported the colonies after the americans won some major victories with the idea of getting some more caribbean bases, spain said "we want some islands too"and declared war on england, england declared war on the netherlands after the dutch used their islands to ship gunpowder to the colonies.
Not the point.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Elphie,
I may be late in the game here but didn't Sadam use nerve agent against the kurds and the Iranians?
I didn't see that on the list provided to him.
He did and if you look at Tronski's post it shows who sold Saddam precursors for which types of chemical weapons. Note however, that all the precursors on that graph thingie were dual use chemicals, just like what the US sold.
Now is it the fault of all of the countries that sold precursors to Iraq, that Iraq developed WMD's? Only if they sold those items knowing full well what he was doing with them. In the case of the US, we stopped all sales of dual use items as soon as it became clear he was using chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war and against the Kurds. Heck, in at least 2 cases we prosecuted companies for trying to sell precursors. Although in that second case, I think the penalty should have been far more than just a fine.
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Originally posted by Eagler
so who do you think is more brain washed?
the average american or the average Iranian?
my guess is the average Iranian.
Alternate answer : you.
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Originally posted by straffo
Alternate answer : you.
of course, with our state run media outlets and all ...
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Originally posted by Eagler
of course, with our state run media outlets and all ...
Hmmm: http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1067
There seems to be a perception amongst many people that Iranians are little robots who all share the same value systems, political and religious beliefs and world view. It may come as a surprise to those people that Iranian views have bell curve of diversity as most other peoples do. Perhaps the curve isn't as wide as one in, say Europe and the US, but it's there.
I recently saw a documentry in which average Iranians were slagging off their government, the west, the man down the road and the encroachment of Islam into what they considered secular matters. Many people looked for their news on radio and the internet and not state television.
In the documentry some of them didn't seem frightened about voicing their opinions, but others were very concerned so they spoke in a sort of 'code' with a lot of nods and winks and 'say no more's. Recently, a group of teachers who assisted the human rights watch group were arrested, but the national teachers' association has openly criticised this and is intending to hold a demonstration to demand the resignation of the minister of education (good luck to them - I hope they don't get thrown into jail too).
So the problem to me is not so much that they're brainwashed, its that they get arrested if they are critical towards the government.
Ravs