Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Yarbles on April 23, 2007, 05:59:46 AM
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When taking an Airfield primacy seems to be given to dissabling fighter hangers which are the msot numerous and stay down for least time.
I expect this has been said before and there is an obvious error in the thinking but I would suggest in order of priority get the VH, ordanance and bomber hagers down with maybe 4 bombers. Then cap the base using tanks which have set of as the bombers enter Radar range. 3 or 4 tanks on the base should be able to cap the fighters and bombers indefinatley as they wont run out of fuel and the fighters that upped against the initial bombers will be likely to be interceptors. Following fighters will be without ordanance and will not be able to stop the GV'S capping the base.
Assuming a convenient sporn point of course. Other bases may be able to support but would be able to whatever the strategy.
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first off, only about 10% of those who fly AH read these boards.
second, how you want to "play" isn't always how the others want to "play" .
You might be able to dictate to your squad how to take a base, but don't presume to tell every one else how to play. Believe it or not, there are some who couldn't care less weather another base ever got taken.
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Believe it or not, you can actually take a base without taking down anything on the base.
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Excuse me for posing a theoretical question :(
Did someone get out of bed the wrong side this morning
and that isn,t how you spell whether though if you want to spell it like that its ok with me :D
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Yarbles, no matter what you say on these boards, someone will stroll along and pee in your Cheerios. :cool:
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T
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I mean thank you Max and some comment on my idea would have been even better though taking nothing away from you.
So far I am satisfied, as I beleive my detractors are now eating their own Livers in self discust.
I am still holding out in hope of serious, considered and insightfull responses.
I wish you well :aok
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No I really cant see anything so inflamatory in my original post except that my meaning would have been clearer if I had said "There is probably an obvious error in my thinking" rather than the thinking.
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Yarbles,
There are many ways to capture a field and the one you describe would work ok in most scenarios.
If you want total control over the battle I would suggest an NOE attack run on the key elements of base defence.
Take out the ack, VH and ord. Having tanks on the field for cap will only work if these 3 things are taken care of first. Usually a co-ordinated strike would be best rather than letting the GV's drive up and do all the work themselves it would take way longer and the chances of the defence to get up much more likely.
Towns can be taken care of in two ways. A good bomber in lancs can take 3 passes and leave around 5 buildings left. Or a good osty driver can wipe the town and ack in around 5 minutes if they are good. I prefer the m3 method best as usually they are less noticeable than a goon.
After saying all of this timing and the element of surprise are the two biggest factors of base capture in my opinion. Many a time my squad have managed to pull off a capture against superior odds due to skill and outsmarting the opposition.
Nothing beats watching the ack pop and seeing the enemy get torn to shreds by it :t
Regards
Bruv
~S~
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Originally posted by Bruv119
Nothing beats watching the ack pop and seeing the enemy get torn to shreds by it :t
Regards
Bruv
~S~
Bruv......that's the best part lol Or watching nme's come back from mission only to realize (too late mind you) they no longer have a place to hang their hat (s), and they don't have the fuel to go anywhere else. :aok
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yea i think the best one i've seen had about 20 red cons in and around their field.
It was like firework night!
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Very illuminating and I think you are confirming that the basic strategy of perhaps 2 or 3 Bombers followed up by perhaps 6 to 8 Gv's can work. Perhaps even less GV,S 2 for the town and 3 for the base taking care of the ack at the same time as the town etc. I have noticed in the atack that depends on taking down the fighter hangers they often pop before the troops can be brought in. (Particulary where the FH,S are not destroyed simultaneously). The battle then degenrates into one of attrition with the initiative due to the shorter distances involved shifting to the defenders.
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Yarbles.
I was trying to get at the need for co-ordination and timing more than anything. Just gvs and buffs isn't only one way to get a field.
I would much rather have 5 good heavy attack planes to take out the ack, ord and vh and then perform a good solid vulching role rather than have bombers flattening all the hangars.
GV's can maintain the CAP once there and in position.
Lets put it this way the gvs make the field flash and bombers are creating a juicy dar bar. I up with a plane loaded with some big bombs. Take out 2 gvs before they reach the field and then harass the bombers. Whilst others defenders show up and do the same. GV's all nullified, ack still up and bombers getting killed.
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Personally I would only drop hangars as a last resort.
Oh and on the subject of vulching would you all agree with me that this has been severely reduced since the ack enhancements.
I cant remember the last time I vulched the crap out of a base with everything being down and lots of uppers.
Surely a
:aok for HTC to eliminate this area of gameplay especially for the newer players.
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Yes point taken, but if bombers have obviouly got the base falshing wont the GV'S to some extent be under the Radar so you would not load Bombs at the outset in defence?
(My questions are genuine I dont have much experience)
Please let me know if you think the above would work i.e. cover the GV'S and can you think of a way of taking say a small airfield with less than say 6 in a squad assuming some opposition. i think this would be pottentially:
2 bombers / fighter bombers (Base/ ack)
2x gv (Base and ack)
2 x gv ( Town and ack)
Bombers/ fighter bombers re cycled into 2 x M3 with troops.
Any obvious flaws in the plan?
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I think it would work ok with little opposition.
I have had great experience with getting fields with 5 or more guys.
I would go with
2 fighters heavy 2 fighters light and 2 gvs
1 osty for town 1 m3.
The heavies kill VH and leave everything else.
4 potential planes in cap. Usually this gives the guy in the town enough time to get it flat and let the troops run whilst the defence is too busy avoiding getting vulched to worry about the town.
From a historical perspective air superiority is a must for any capture. Even with ord out an IL2 or hurri 2d can kill/disable your gvs with guns only. So I would lean more to having a strong cap. Or at least a cap good enough to prevent nme planes getting to the town or harassing gvs.
Also it depends who you are up against sometimes it will be un-organised noobs and sometimes just 1 vet can ruin your day.
Good luck with developing a strategy that suits you and your squad.
Practice makes perfect!
Bruv
~S~
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The problem I have with this strategy is that Gvs simply take too long to get there. You can launch them in advance but in limited number really have no suppression effectiveness. I've rarly seen tanks over run an airfield. Not to say it doesn't work.
The best results I've seen are when the field is taken with speed. Launch one or two C47s in advance, launch your attack fighters, everyone is NOE, hit the town hard with the C47s coming right in or dropping even before the town is down. I find that the enemy can 't respond fast enough to get any numbers in the air and definitely no time to run a GV over to the town. The best executed raids, the airfield is never touched. Any uppers are intercepted before they can get the goon.
If you are planning a prolonged assault, then it's usually easier to get a GV in there. The longer you take to capture a field the more attention it draws and the more difficult it is to take. Then a strategy that involves taking out the hangers is in order.
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The absolute minimum you need is 2 GV's; an Osti to flatten the town and an M3 to take it. Anything else is a bonus.
Personally, if i had a few additional players I'd take a second Osti for air defense/backup and a tank for ground defense for the primary Osti and M3 then fly 1-2 light fighters in keeping dar bar to a minimum and making the enemy think that's whats making the base flash and also to drag any uppers away from the town.
This, of course, only works if it's not a heavily utilized/defended field. If it is you're probably not going to take it with six guys no matter what configuration you use but trying to sneak in the 2 GV's might still be worth a shot.
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Originally posted by Yarbles
Yes point taken, but if bombers have obviouly got the base falshing wont the GV'S.....
I spell flashing a bit different than you too :D
All I was pointing out is that the BBS is is a very limited way of putting info "out there". and by reading your first post, it came off sounding like a "this is the way it should be done" type of post as you stated in this part...
I expect this has been said before and there is an obvious error in the thinking but I would suggest in order of priority get the VH, ordanance and bomber hagers down with maybe 4 bombers. Then cap the base using tanks which have set of as the bombers enter Radar range. 3 or 4 tanks on the base should be able to cap the fighters and bombers indefinatley as they wont run out of fuel and the fighters that upped against the initial bombers will be likely to be interceptors. Following fighters will be without ordanance and will not be able to stop the GV'S capping the base.
As Bruv said there are a number of ways to take fields. One of my favorites was 6 p38's fully loaded, crawling along NOE with a goon, never out pacing it till we lite off the rader. Then it was full power,WEP and grab a bit of alt. Mission was to take out VH, town and ack. we could get it done so quick that the goon would just head strait to the town and drop the troops :aok
Of course that was before the new ack layouts. With the same crew it might be a bit harder to do due to attrition from ack. Taking bases in the MA's is a bit harder due to smaller maps with bigger numbers. Front line bases are covered a bit better just due to "over flow".
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Lets see If I can shed some light on here. Since yarbles is in my squad, I would liek for you to understand the tactics involved with this style.
Formost its easy to gain somewhat control over a base, and illiminate the fighters from vulching a field, and finish the town off. We also seem to have a very big problem with the vulch anyway. I have seen this so many times, its not even funny anymore.
1 Plane gets into air from the hanger, and everyone vulching goes after them, and 2 now get up, and cap is lost. No discipline. So its easier to gain the upper hand, by eliinating the threat. the bomber hangers are secoondary , but Im starting to adopt a doctrine of dropping those too.
Actually Im getting to point just level the whole damn place. Looks nicer.
Now, How many planes does it take to do that. This questions goes to the individual, who is in the mission in a plane they should have intimate knowledge of. It is there skill and disciplane, which is the key to the misisons success.
As far as mutliple co-ordinated missions, well lately weve been doing that I thought. You may not be on, when we start doing this because your over in England, but we actually strive for this. Unfortuanlty back to back to back missions get old. So we only do like 2-3 night. Anymore, it would too much like work, inless were on a roll, or its really needed to piss the opponents off :p But all and all Ill talk with you sometime this evening, and go over tactics offline. I cant give out my best ideas on these forums.
Cheers
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i like 5 110s and a goon. 110s pop 10k from field and WEP it in and hit town with bombs and strafe it down and have the goon drop as 110s make the second pass. Once town is down 110s head to field and kill fighters/distract them while trps run.
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"Actually Im getting to point just level the whole damn place. Looks nicer".
LOL
And dont worry Iam not putting in for CO until I get my rank below 2000 ;)
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
I spell flashing a bit different than you too :D
All I was pointing out is that the BBS is is a very limited way of putting info "out there". and by reading your first post, it came off sounding like a "this is the way it should be done" type of post as you stated in this part...
I am glad we have sorted that little misunderstanding out and will be very carefull not to appear to infringe your rights to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness in the future
;)
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Originally posted by Yarbles
and that isn,t how you spell whether though if you want to spell it like that its ok with me :D
and that isn't a comma in isn't you put an apostrophe in it
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The only thing I would add to this discussion is that there's more than one way to skin a cat. I think most experienced players would agree that the VH and ack are the typical top priority target, but it is possible with a well executed plan, and a bit of luck, to take a field by only attacking the town.
Dropping FH's are not without merit. It is a good way to surpress resistance, while still having a fully functional field within a set time period after its capture. A problem I often see is porking a fields strats without any thought of the consequences of using the field once it's captured. Rendering a field difficult or impossible to defend once it's captured should be a last resort and not the norm.
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Originally posted by nickf620
and that isn't a comma in isn't you put an apostrophe in it
Thanks and please note names are proper npuns and shoul begin with a capital letter as in Nickf620.
Please amend and we will say no more about it.:p
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When I say level it, I didnt mean to drop troops and ords, but most of the time, in a fight over a base. It has been going on for a awhile, before the base was actually taken. So if you two bases within close proximtiy, more then likely the Ords would have been dropped way prior to the actual capture portion. Theres so many damn troop barracks, that to get them all, is fairly rare. Splash damage though, could take it out. though. Seems all the baracks, are located close enough to something to get slpashed. Also when the GV's come out of the woodwork, barracks may get hit also.
But usually a base supply run, can alwas be in the work between missions, so really its not that big of a deal.
What I do want to bring up though, and what has the biggest effect on a base capture is people dropping something on the town prior to an all out assualt however your modis-operandi is. That is I prefer a virgin town. So you dont have the buildings popping when your troops are running. Thats alwas a bummer.
Cheers
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Originally posted by Murdr
The only thing I would add to this discussion is that there's more than one way to skin a cat. I think most experienced players would agree that the VH and ack are the typical top priority target, but it is possible with a well executed plan, and a bit of luck, to take a field by only attacking the town.
Dropping FH's are not without merit. It is a good way to surpress resistance, while still having a fully functional field within a set time period after its capture. A problem I often see is porking a fields strats without any thought of the consequences of using the field once it's captured. Rendering a field difficult or impossible to defend once it's captured should be a last resort and not the norm.
:aok
SA applies whether your in the air, or on the ground............furballing, or GV fighting, or yes even when your trying to take a base.
We've taken bases with as few as 2, and with as many as 20 squad members. The basic keys are, planning, Timing, and disipline.............and patience. Have a backup plan ready, in case Plan A fails.
Change some tactics up, keeps the nme's guessing; ie. 3 sets of bombers (or fighters) coming in at different alts (instead of same hgt.), come in from different directions (instead of all from same base and direction) Timing is everything.
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What I do want to bring up though, and what has the biggest effect on a base capture is people dropping something on the town prior to an all out assualt however your modis-operandi is. That is I prefer a virgin town. So you dont have the buildings popping when your troops are running. Thats alwas a bummer.
Cheers [/B][/QUOTE]
Point taken, its easy to do more harm than good especially when your new to the game/squad so it makes sense to me to have back up and use less experienced squad members (eg me) in this role. Maybe even a first and second squad setting of at intervals. Then I guess if the base is not taken in time they can also drop the FH, VH again.
I think the FH is again the hardest to deal with as to be effective you need more than one squad member even on a small base and if all are not dropped simutaneously down time is lost. I take the point though about the alternative of capping the base being hard if there is not enough discipline discipline but maybe where possible a gv or two on the ground might help.
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Originally posted by Yarbles
I think the FH is again the hardest to deal with as to be effective you need more than one squad member even on a small base and if all are not dropped simutaneously down time is lost. I take the point though about the alternative of capping the base being hard if there is not enough discipline discipline but maybe where possible a gv or two on the ground might help.
Murdr kinda pointed out why you wouldn't really want to take down the FH's. To me, that is a last resort type option. If the base you're taking ends up being a contended piece of real estate, then the chances that a rescue mission is on the way as soon as you take the base is good. It will be hard to defend if you can't up planes.
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Murdr is spot on.
Base take 101.
Vh
Ack
Town
That order.
Now this would be the scenario for a "fresh" capture. i.e. a field that you have not been fighting over.
IF it's a well defended field, you might have to drop the FH's and BH's to slow the stream of nme's and allow you time to get a good cap. (FH's at least, sometime BH's)
Most don't seem to understand how much more important it is to kill VH over FH's.
You can vulch fighters. You can't vulch osti's. W/ the VH up, ONE lucky osti can ruin a whole base take. (Which I proved the other night, rackin' up 12 kills,2 lvt's, and killing troops at the maproom twice)
So to recap. Drop the VH. Kill the ack (don't forget manned) and then kill the town. If done correctly it's a quick, clean take.
Dropping FH's should only be a last resort on a well defended field.
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I think Murder and WMlute hit it about right..
#1 priority (IMO) should ALWAYS be VH...
as stated an Osti or Tiger gets out it can ruin an otherwise well planned and executed capture..
#2 DEACK.. Kill field ack to allow planes to provide cap unmolested from ack..
#3. Town-- Work the town after or simutaniosuly with the deack... Kill town ack ASAP again to allow planes to hit town without having to worry about the ack..
#4 CAP/Vulch... Depending on the number of people involved in your mission you can leave all hangers up with good cap and vulch... If you start to lose cap proceed to #5.
#5 Fighter Hangers.. Drop when you have limited numbers to put an effective cap on field..
As the person who puts a mission or squad operation together you should have a plan for what you want to do and what planes for what tasks..
Numbers dictates alot of what you are able to do and how qucikly and effiecently you get it done..
Rarely do I ever use heavy bombers in a capture mission as for most pilots they have only a single role, bombing... I would rather use heavy fighters with 2 1000 lbers and rockets than bombers.. after release of ord they can provide cap and vulch... ( the exception to this is vehicle base in that case bombers or even a JU-87 with the MOAB is nice)..
But there are numerous ways to capture bases use what is fun for you and your sqaud...
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Originally posted by LTARokit
We've taken bases with as few as 2, and with as many as 20 squad members. The basic keys are, planning, Timing, and disipline.............and patience. Have a backup plan ready, in case Plan A fails.
Change some tactics up, keeps the nme's guessing; ie. 3 sets of bombers (or fighters) coming in at different alts (instead of same hgt.), come in from different directions (instead of all from same base and direction) Timing is everything.
Yep, no matter what timing is everything, and deception helps a lot. More than once I've seen fields taken while one or two people distract defenders.
BUT keep in mind that one lone defender can spoil any well laid plans. Right Rokit? :)
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#1 Use what you have. If you have few pilots consider GV attack. 2 osti's, a tank and a M3 can take a field if you are lucky and plan well. If you have lots then something more traditional may work better.
#2 Be sneaky, use misdirection, 2 pronged attacks, high bombers combined with NOE, pull out all the stops here.
#3 If you run into a wall of defenders be prepared to accept that any given target may be too well defended at the moment. Be flexible enough to rally the troops and hit someplace else where they are not expecting you. The advantage of surprise can be huge for the attacking side. Use it!
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I guess being flexible is very important as I belive someone said that whith any Battleplan events become almost totally unpredictable a short time after inception.
A U turn or change of objective erroneously suggests that the initial plan was in error rather than inevitably based on imperfect inteligence etc.
How does a good comander abandon an atack without it appearing to be mistaken or misconceived and then risk losing the confidence of the squad. Probably in real life as well as games an atack/campaign goes on far too long because it is so hard to bite the bullet and admit the outcome is going to be less than succesfull.
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Yarbles,
In my opinion if your sqaud loses faith in you as a commander over one or two botched missions... the issue lies with them NOT you..
It is much different if EVERY MISSION you devise is:
1: poorly planned as far as plane set, ord, targets etc...
2: Poorly executed as far as what needs to be done to reach your desired results (im assuming capture missions)..
If you consistently allow say GV's to botch your capture missions for lack of dropping VH quickly enough then the problem is yours...
Not every mission is going to work, not every plan is going to be executed properly..
If I plan a mission for my squad and it doesnt work I find a simple "sorry guys this ones a bust" works just fine.. The guys in the squad know when its "over" and your not going to get the results your looking for.
One thing we do is post After Action Reports (havent for a while though) for the squad to read and place their input into. Can give you some ideas as to what your sqaud mates think was both good and bad about said missions. Allows for improvement and understanding of what needs to be improved upon for next time..
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Originally posted by sgt203
Yarbles,
In my opinion if your sqaud loses faith in you as a commander over one One thing we do is post After Action Reports (havent for a while though) for the squad to read and place their input into. Can give you some ideas as to what your sqaud mates think was both good and bad about said missions. Allows for improvement and understanding of what needs to be improved upon for next time..
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Feedback after the mission sounds like a brilliant idea:aok
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I 100% agree that if the base you are trying to capture gets defended, and defended well, it would be much easier to move on to another field with little, to no defenders.
Here's the thing... Attacking undefended fields is about as much fun as capturing fields offline. Same thing really.
When the enemy starts pouring out at ya', and the fight get's hot and heavy, THAT is where the fun begins.
Any group of morons can take undefended field after undefended field. Takes zero strategy, skill, or know how. I chuckle often at some of the squads that are "known" for capturing bases. Put up even a slight defence, and 99% of the time they'll move on to greener pastures. I have stopped multi-wing mass squads on their squad night many a time with 1/2 or less of their numbers. If it turns into a fight, they'll go elsewhere. I guess the fighting part scares 'em.
What takes skill, team work, strategy, etc, etc, is capturing a well defended field. Pretty much all aspects of game play get represented. Buffs flying in, gv's on the ground, fighters furballin', jabo's dropin' eggs... The whole deal all in that one base capture.
Sooooo... next time you attack a field and some nme up and kill you and your mission, don't give up and move on. Head on back, and KEEP heading back until that field is yours. You might never capture it, but it's fun as heck trying. AND if you DO manage to capture it, that field take is oh so sweet, lemme tell ya'.
I can't count how many bases the WM's have captured for no other reason than we were too stubborn to quit trying.
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Originally posted by Yarbles
Assuming a convenient sporn point of course.
What's a sporn?
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Very similar to a peed ant :rolleyes: :p :D
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see that, you complain about one guys spelling and your policed from then on :D
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Originally posted by NHawk
Yep, no matter what timing is everything, and deception helps a lot. More than once I've seen fields taken while one or two people distract defenders.
BUT keep in mind that one lone defender can spoil any well laid plans. Right Rokit? :)
LOLOL.......ain't it the truth
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
see that, you complain about one guys spelling and your policed from then on :D
You know, I should take it all in good part and not be too old to learn. I mean that's what we are on this forum for isn,t it. Or is it just another opportunity to fight a war?
I suspect both and we are all suffering from combat fatigue (hope I spelt that Write) :D