Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Pacifica on April 23, 2007, 08:43:49 PM
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Does anyone else think it's way to easy to get kills or be killed? I feel like getting a kill just ain't what it used to be. I've started flying the Mk1's and the old school planes, cuz when you get a kill with .303 brownings, it feels pretty darn good. But it seems kind of lame that anyone can lob cannon rounds and pray one hits...
Would anyone else be in favor of making Cannon rounds less effective in air-to-air combat?
I think it might make AHII less arcade-ish, and put a greater emphasis on skillful maneuvering, patience, and strategy.
Thoughts?
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P.S.--- I'm not pretending I'm a pro that gets kills whenever I please, I just feel that cannon rds should be scaled back in the damage they do---for a better gaming experience...
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Originally posted by Pacifica
Does anyone else think it's way to easy to get kills or be killed? I feel like getting a kill just ain't what it used to be. I've started flying the Mk1's and the old school planes, cuz when you get a kill with .303 brownings, it feels pretty darn good. But it seems kind of lame that anyone can lob cannon rounds and pray one hits...
Would anyone else be in favor of making Cannon rounds less effective in air-to-air combat?
I think it might make AHII less arcade-ish, and put a greater emphasis on skillful maneuvering, patience, and strategy.
Thoughts?
Artificial restraints make AHII more arcade-ish. A cannon round is devastating in real life, so is it here.
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Originally posted by Lusche
Artificial restraints make AHII more arcade-ish IMHIO. A cannon round is devastating in real life, so is it here.
So, one cannon round to a Spitfire wing would take it off?
I wonder if any WW2 Fighter pilots would be surprised at how many aircraft in this game explode and break to pieces from a couple cannon rounds...
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Originally posted by Pacifica
So, one cannon round to a Spitfire wing would take it off?
When it hits in the right place - yes.
I have seen fighter getting hit by cannon rounds without visible damage, I have seen fighters loosing wings from a few .50cal bullets. It's all about exact hit location, convergence and previous damgage.
I think you underestimate the hitting and explosive power of a 200mm HE round...
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Originally posted by Lusche
When it hits in the right place - yes.
I have seen fighter getting hit by cannon rounds without visible damage, I have seen fighters loosing wings from a few .50cal bullets. It's all about exact hit location, convergence and previous damgae.
You've seen this in actual WW2 footage, or just in this game?
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Pacifica take note the reason it seems so effective is because people know how to aim and are probably hitting you with many many rounds without you knowing it.
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Originally posted by Pacifica
put a greater emphasis on skillful maneuvering
I think this part right will help you answer the riddle of the vicious cannon round.
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Originally posted by SAS_KID
Pacifica take note the reason it seems so effective is because people know how to aim and are probably hitting you with many many rounds without you knowing it.
Oh, you're suggesting I don't know how to aim? LOL
I love people on this board...whenever someone suggests something or complains about a part of the game, it's always "their own shortcoming"
I'm just saying, if getting kills - even with cannons was oooooohh so effective, than why was shooting down aircraft in REAL LIFE so difficult.
It's amazing how well Allied fighter pilots, armed with .30 and .50 cals, outscored Japanese fighters armed with the 'magical' cannons so amazingly.
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Originally posted by Pacifica
Oh, you're suggesting I don't know how to aim? LOL
I love people on this board...whenever someone suggests something or complains about a part of the game, it's always "their own shortcoming"
I'm just saying, if getting kills - even with cannons was oooooohh so effective, than why was shooting down aircraft in REAL LIFE so difficult.
It's amazing how well Allied fighter pilots, armed with .30 and .50 cals, outscored Japanese fighters armed with the 'magical' cannons so amazingly.
This statement is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start... but maybe I'll try this. SAS_Kid was merely stating that often times what is perceived as a single hit is, when viewed from the other side is a well aimed burst, and was not in fact a indictment of your own aim at all.
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I have long held the opinion that lethality in game was a few degrees too hot, from an enjoyment perspective. I remember being in Warbirds where you could actually survive a bad situation get a good hammering and still have a chance at reversing the fight. In AcesHigh, once you get a good shot on your plane the sortie is over 99% of the time. Kind of unfun but what the hey, we keep returning.
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Originally posted by Pacifica
Oh, you're suggesting I don't know how to aim? LOL
You appear to be reading into this too much. Simply put, practice precise aiming. Cannon rounds all over the plane wil not do as much damage as a concentrated burst.
I am not real great at it, but I love the Yak9U and 9T. Flying those planes teaches you to be conservative with your ammo count. Therefore, precise aiming matters. If you can master that, then these uber cannon rides should be no problem.
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If you think a 20mm high explosive shell is good, ....my 30mm is even better, if i see even 1 lil hit sprite i know he wont be around too much longer,...and I do think a 20 or 30 mm cannon shot would devistate a tiny lil fighter....here or real life, i like the hitting power the way it is myself.
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Taters rule.
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Originally posted by thndregg
You appear to be reading into this too much. Simply put, practice precise aiming. Cannon rounds all over the plane wil not do as much damage as a concentrated burst.
I am not real great at it, but I love the Yak9U and 9T. Flying those planes teaches you to be conservative with your ammo count. Therefore, precise aiming matters. If you can master that, then these uber cannon rides should be no problem.
Think we got off the original point Pacifica was making which was not that he was having problems getting kills, rather that he was finding it too easy when using cannons.
Meanwhile though i think they're fine.
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Originally posted by Pacifica
than why was shooting down aircraft in REAL LIFE so difficult.
Why? Because the VAST MAJORITY of pilots in real life rarely saw an enemy throughout their entire careers! Not even when said enemy flew up behind them unnoticed and ended their careers.
The average AH "pilot" has the benefit of thousands of sorties under their belt. If they ever came up against the average real-life pilot in WW2 (if they were somehow transported back in time) they would know what works and what doesn't. Pilots in real life don't experiment when the end result might be DEATH. Virtual pilots have this ability.
I believe in modern times the idea is that a pilot is much much more likely to survive combat if he completes his first 6 missions. Using simulators, the Air Force has produced a much greater quality of pilot without the training accidents resulting in death.
In WW2 most accidents resulted in death, not a return to the tower, not a lesson learned. Here we learn. I've been shot down over a thousand times in this game. I bet Marseille would have loved to get training like this!
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Originally posted by Pacifica
Does anyone else think it's way to easy to get kills or be killed? I feel like getting a kill just ain't what it used to be. I've started flying the Mk1's and the old school planes, cuz when you get a kill with .303 brownings, it feels pretty darn good. But it seems kind of lame that anyone can lob cannon rounds and pray one hits...
Would anyone else be in favor of making Cannon rounds less effective in air-to-air combat?
I think it might make AHII less arcade-ish, and put a greater emphasis on skillful maneuvering, patience, and strategy.
Thoughts?
And the difference between lamers spraying mg bullets, and lamers lobbing cannon rounds is what exactly?
I wonder if any WW2 Fighter pilots would be surprised at how many aircraft in this game explode and break to pieces from a couple cannon rounds...
Probably not the ones who actually got hit with cannon fire.
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Oh, and the "fireball" means your pilot was killed. It's easier to render it exploding for a short while than to compute and render the corpse falling from the sky in an out of control airframe.
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Originally posted by Pacifica
I'm just saying, if getting kills - even with cannons was oooooohh so effective, than why was shooting down aircraft in REAL LIFE so difficult.
It's amazing how well Allied fighter pilots, armed with .30 and .50 cals, outscored Japanese fighters armed with the 'magical' cannons so amazingly.
This has GOT to be a troll, right? :rolleyes:
If not, then Krusty and others handled your first question very well.
As for the second one, the answer lay not so much in the armament of the different planes, but in the speed, armor, and tactics.
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I recall one Wing Co's comment on the Spitfire's cannons. He had flown with eight .303s in the Battle of Britain, and then one day in 1943 he took a Mk IX out on a sweep and caught a Bf109 with a short burst from what he thought was too far to be realistic and the Bf109 came apart in mid air. Lost a wing and the tail separated from the fuselage as I recall. When he landed his armorer informed him that he'd fired 20 rounds from his cannons. Wanna bet if he landed all 20 rounds from long range?
He was shocked by the destructive capability of the cannons compared to his old .303s.
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i saw a photograph once in a WWII book of a spitfire that took a single 20mm HE round thru the fuselage a few feet behind the pilot and a few feet in front of the tail section. it was about the size of a baseball on the entry side and as big as a beach ball on the exit side. the photo stated it was a MIRACLE the plane made it home to land AND had that round hit the wing it would have taken the wing clean off.
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Heres a short clip of a salvaged P-38's (Glacier Girl) 20mm Hispano being fired at a 40 gallon drum. Note the extensive damage. Also note this is steel, not aluminum as aircraft are...
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-3316529261715180734
..nuff said.
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Maybe he should try not flying in front of "lamers" with cannons....
well, just a thought :D
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Actually, I dare Pacifica to produce an actual footage of AH2 plane coming apart with only one hit from any type of 20mm round. Ofcourse, a direct pilot hit would not fall under the terms mentioned above, since its not an issue of structural integrity in the particular case. Up a 109 with a single MG151 20mm or a P-38 with a single Hispano II 20mm, and let's see if anyone can come up with any plane that falls apart from one round.
At first, looking at just the initial post I thought this was a good thread to mention AH needs exact ammo-load sequence modelled in, but the following posts have proved that this is another one of those mal-informed whine thread.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Actually, I dare Pacifica to produce an actual footage of AH2 plane coming apart with only one hit from any type of 20mm round. Ofcourse, a direct pilot hit would not fall under the terms mentioned above, since its not an issue of structural integrity in the particular case. Up a 109 with a single MG151 20mm or a P-38 with a single Hispano II 20mm, and let's see if anyone can come up with any plane that falls apart from one round.
I've done it.
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Anyone ever see the program on the military channel comparing the 109 E to the Spit 1 during the BoB. Well during the comparison, they showed the audience the hitting power of both the .303 and 20mm on metal from an old scrapped war birds wing......The .303 tore the wing up, but with tiny tiny holes. 1 or 2 shots from the 20mm and it was evident thats all you needed because of the damage inflicted. You have holes in the wind the size of grapefruit.
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Follow that link for some info on WWII Fighter-Armament. It's got some good technical explanations for your questions.
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/index.htm
Scroll down to the section on Fighter-Armament effectiveness. Is it just me, or does he happen to compare the planeset they used in WB's?
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Actually, I dare Pacifica to produce an actual footage of AH2 plane coming apart with only one hit from any type of 20mm round. Ofcourse, a direct pilot hit would not fall under the terms mentioned above, since its not an issue of structural integrity in the particular case. Up a 109 with a single MG151 20mm or a P-38 with a single Hispano II 20mm, and let's see if anyone can come up with any plane that falls apart from one round.
At first, looking at just the initial post I thought this was a good thread to mention AH needs exact ammo-load sequence modelled in, but the following posts have proved that this is another one of those mal-informed whine thread.
ive done it.
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Originally posted by Pacifica
You've seen this in actual WW2 footage, or just in this game?
it's a cannon round, bigger hole, bullets just punch little holes, if anything the 50 cals in p51's need to have more punch in this game
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Originally posted by Pacifica
Does anyone else think it's way to easy to get kills or be killed? I feel like getting a kill just ain't what it used to be. I've started flying the Mk1's and the old school planes, cuz when you get a kill with .303 brownings, it feels pretty darn good. But it seems kind of lame that anyone can lob cannon rounds and pray one hits...
Would anyone else be in favor of making Cannon rounds less effective in air-to-air combat?
I think it might make AHII less arcade-ish, and put a greater emphasis on skillful maneuvering, patience, and strategy.
Thoughts?
Have you ever flown a 109 with a single Mg151/20 or Mk108? You can't spray everywhere and land then more then one kill. In real life a 30mm would take a fighter down in one or two hits if it wasnt made outa wood. And about 3-5 20mms. I have seen alot of guncam footage of wings coming off from cannon fire. In WW2 they didnt have little icons telling how far away the plane was. So they were doing alot more shooting then we do in the game. Sit down and watch the history or military channel one day you'll see what I'm talking about. Theres alot of bullets flying around but when they hit planes fall apart. Like krusty said when a plane explodes that mean the pilot was killed. Would you rather it be like IL-2 when you pilot is dead all you can do is watch you plane fall to earth. With the alts some poeple fly at here it would take a few minutes.
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Originally posted by yanksfan
it's a cannon round, bigger hole, bullets just punch little holes, if anything the 50 cals in p51's need to have more punch in this game
.50 cals are good. They wernt HE so when they hit all they did was make a hole. When a cannon round hits it detonates on contact. Its like what I said when people were taking about how .50cals would take longer to take out ack. Get a few of your friends in a circle and fire a .50 cal into the ground. All that will happen is you will get dirt on you. Now drop a grenade on the ground and see what happens.
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(http://www.23ag.ru/assets/images/mk108blenheim.jpeg)
One ... ONE ... 30 mm shell from a MK 108 did this to a Blenheim bomber.
(Note: Ground test by the British, not battle damage.)
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Its just a little scrached its still good its still good.
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Originally posted by Viking
One ... ONE ... 30 mm shell from a MK 108 did this to a Blenheim bomber.
(Note: Ground test by the British, not battle damage.)
Also note that they put the shell in the plane and detonated it. If it were placed on the plane and detonated it wouldnt have did as much damage.
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Originally posted by Larry
.50 cals are good. They wernt HE so when they hit all they did was make a hole. When a cannon round hits it detonates on contact. Its like what I said when people were taking about how .50cals would take longer to take out ack. Get a few of your friends in a circle and fire a .50 cal into the ground. All that will happen is you will get dirt on you. Now drop a grenade on the ground and see what happens.
Agreed, just saying the six 50 cal's on a mustang should be able to cut most of these fighters in half with a concentrated burst, As it is modeled at present p51d 50's aren't nearly as effective as they should be. imho.
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They are as they should be. If you hit them where all six guns converge then it will rip him up with just a snapshot. When I fly with something with .50 I put them out to 400 and only shoot when they are there.
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Originally posted by Larry
Also note that they put the shell in the plane and detonated it. If it were placed on the plane and detonated it wouldnt have did as much damage.
Ever wonder why they put the shell inside the fuselage for the test? :rolleyes:
The Germans used delay fuses on their shells. The shells would penetrate the skin and detonate inside the structure.
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I didn't know the fuzes were on delay I thought they detonated on contact.
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Originally posted by Pacifica
Does anyone else think it's way to easy to get kills or be killed? I feel like getting a kill just ain't what it used to be. I've started flying the Mk1's and the old school planes, cuz when you get a kill with .303 brownings, it feels pretty darn good. But it seems kind of lame that anyone can lob cannon rounds and pray one hits...
Would anyone else be in favor of making Cannon rounds less effective in air-to-air combat?
I think it might make AHII less arcade-ish, and put a greater emphasis on skillful maneuvering, patience, and strategy.
Thoughts?
Sounds to me like you've been flying Hizooka equiped planes way too much.
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You mean "been getting shot down by" hizooka armed planes, Wilbus?
Seems more a complaint than an observation. (by pacifica, I mean)
Pacifica, if you don't want to die, stay out of their guns! :D
Seriously, though, flying the 109s, 190s, c2s, ki's, zeros, yak9u, la5, n1k2, and most planes that are NOT british or american, you really have to land a lot of hits in one spot to bring the enemy down. They can take grazing hits 2-3 times and still remain a combat threat, often. I myself have soaked up ungodly amounts of enemy fire while in bf110s, ki84s, p47s, c205s, and ta152s, at times. It all just depends on where you get hit, and how hard you get hit.
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Originally posted by Larry
I didn't know the fuzes were on delay I thought they detonated on contact.
I'm sorry if I was a bit cross with you. Those "rolleyes" were unnecessary on my part.
Some Luftwaffe cannon mayhem:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjKyCG4r678
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Try this, Get a piece of sheet aluminum about 1/16 of an inch thick and shoot it with a 30.06,
Now multiply that diameter untill it gets to the size of your fist (a good 30mm round) and you tell me that it wont do damage to an aircraft.
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I just didn't wanna say it Krusty ;)
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Originally posted by Sting138
Try this, Get a piece of sheet aluminum about 1/16 of an inch thick and shoot it with a 30.06,
Now multiply that diameter untill it gets to the size of your fist (a good 30mm round) and you tell me that it wont do damage to an aircraft.
Actually that has been done. Testing 30 cal., 50 cal, 20mm AP and 20mm HE:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9101895862044064019&q=20+mm+test&hl=en
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Originally posted by Sting138
Try this, Get a piece of sheet aluminum about 1/16 of an inch thick and shoot it with a 30.06,
Now multiply that diameter untill it gets to the size of your fist (a good 30mm round) and you tell me that it wont do damage to an aircraft.
That's a really really bad comparison actually. There is no way you can just compare the sheer diameter of the rounds and shells.
The 30mm are packed with explosives which brings them closer to the dammage of a hand grenade rather then a normal 20mm.
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BTW Any of you know where I can buy some some dud cannon and MG rounds off the internet.
Heres a list of the ones I would like.
Mg FF
Mg 151/15
Mg 151/20
Mk 108
Mk 103
Mg 131
EDIT: Or mabey ones packed with powder so we can test them on Krustys car:D
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(*moves slowly to the door*)
"I'm going to... the store... to buy... beer and .. stuff..."
(*rushes outside, engine sounds, squealing tires sounds*)
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Alittle something for krustys car (http://cgi.ebay.com/INERT-GERMAN-WWII-shell-for-aircraft-GUN-MG-151-20_W0QQitemZ220102625482QQihZ012QQcategoryZ36049QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
Its a bit much for me but just posted incase you guys want it.
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Originally posted by Viking
Actually that has been done. Testing 30 cal., 50 cal, 20mm AP and 20mm HE:
Holy crap Viking. The 20mm AP rounds (no explosives) did quite a bit more dammage than the .50's which were significantly better than the .303's. But the last 20MM HE rounds completely shattered the piece of aluminum that had taken 10+ rounds of all types. 10 rounds of AP ammo and the piece of alluminum was still in its original form, just had big holes in it. After the 20mm HE round, it was shattered into many pieces and deformed beyond recognition. Amazing how much more destructive the HE round was.
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I've done it.
Then let's see the films, man!
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Originally posted by Spatula
Heres a short clip of a salvaged P-38's (Glacier Girl) 20mm Hispano being fired at a 40 gallon drum. Note the extensive damage. Also note this is steel, not aluminum as aircraft are...
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-3316529261715180734
..nuff said.
Now that was sweet!:aok :huh
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Hey guys thanks for the replies, obviously I was a little off base with the suggestion. I guess I just didn't realize how superior a single cannon round was compared to regular MG round. I just figured the creators gave excessive damage power to cannon when A6m's and Spits could so easily be taken down.
My mistake.
Again, thanks for the responses and links, very cool.
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A6ms were historically very easy to bring down. They had little to no armor on the early versions, and still very little armor on the later versions.
Spitfires, while nimble and lethal, were not especially durable or resilient. US Navy planes were noted for strength and durability, and in this game they take a lot more punishment. Zeros were not, and cannot take punishment. Each plane is modeled to its real counterpart's strengths and weaknesses.
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Originally posted by Pacifica
Oh, you're suggesting I don't know how to aim? LOL
I love people on this board...whenever someone suggests something or complains about a part of the game, it's always "their own shortcoming"
I'm just saying, if getting kills - even with cannons was oooooohh so effective, than why was shooting down aircraft in REAL LIFE so difficult.
It's amazing how well Allied fighter pilots, armed with .30 and .50 cals, outscored Japanese fighters armed with the 'magical' cannons so amazingly.
Those US planes also had up to 8 .50 calibers to play with and that alone packs a powerful punch.
What you are asking is basically to decrease the power of cannons because YOU think they are too powerful. Well, I hate to burst your bubble but that's the whole point of having cannons, for that extra punch that machine guns just don't provide. And yes, it is very possible for a 20mm cannon round to remove a parts of your plane. You should check out Tony Williams' (I think that's his name) website on the various armaments used in WW2. You'd be surprised.
Also, your notion that since you fly planes that shoot BBs compared to someone that flies a cannon equipped bird somehow makes you better is a joke and sadly, it's on you. If you're so worried about getting shot down with cannons, maybe you should learn how to stay out of the line of fire.
ack-ack
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Here's the link to the site that AKAK's refering to one more time, just in case you missed it in my first post:http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/index.htm
If you scroll down, you'll find the section on WWII fighter armament effectiveness. There's also a pic gallery of all the different ammo that was used.
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Originally posted by yanksfan
Agreed, just saying the six 50 cal's on a mustang should be able to cut most of these fighters in half with a concentrated burst, As it is modeled at present p51d 50's aren't nearly as effective as they should be. imho.
They are effective, you're just not hitting at the convergence point.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by yanksfan
Agreed, just saying the six 50 cal's on a mustang should be able to cut most of these fighters in half with a concentrated burst, As it is modeled at present p51d 50's aren't nearly as effective as they should be. imho.
I fly a mustang some. If I'm w/in 600 yards, a concentrated burst will catatrophically damage my target every time. It's important to note that you said "concentrated burst" Scattered hits, unless at convergence, often will not give you a killing hit.
Steve
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Also, your notion that since you fly planes that shoot BBs compared to someone that flies a cannon equipped bird somehow makes you better is a joke and sadly, it's on you. If you're so worried about getting shot down with cannons, maybe you should learn how to stay out of the line of fire.
ack-ack
I DID NOT say it makes me better, or that I worry about getting shot down. I said it was often more rewarding and fun to fly Mk1's because you actually have to get on a guy's six, and pump a lot of rounds into him - Not just lob a few cannon rds when he zooms through your sights.
Honestly, I could care less about getting shot down. I always seems to be the guy getting vulched twenty times in a row trying to defend a base - it really doesn't bother me.
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I always forget to start the recorder....but I did do this once a couple of weeks ago while flying a BF 109 K-4.
I slipped in behind a BF 110 and lined up for the shot at about d 300. It was obvious that the pilot didn't know I was there so I decided to take my time and fire one 30 mm to make sure I had a good sight picture before letting loose with everything.
I had the pipper on the right wing root area when I gave the trigger a quick tap. I saw one flash from the hit in the right ring root area and then to my amazement the right wing folded up and he started spinning.
I was surprised that (1) I actually hit it with the first shot and (2) how devastating that 30 mm round was.
It's pure evil, man! :t
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Thats why I like to use taters... on the off chance I do get a hit...
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Originally posted by Pacifica
Does anyone else think it's way to easy to get kills or be killed? ....
I do feel is way to easy to be killed, on getting kills not so sure!
:rofl
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considering the germans claimed one 30mm round should tear a bomber apart i think they are just right or maybe a little under powered.
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Originally posted by Laurie
considering the germans claimed one 30mm round should tear a bomber apart
Did they? I only remember having read statements more like: "One hit could down a fighter, two to five could down a heavy bomber"
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well they were nazi's so take it with a pinch of salt lol
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You guys need to realize, you're hit probability is going to be worse with cannons, due to balistics.
So no, cannon's are fine the way they are.
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Originally posted by Lusche
I think you underestimate the hitting and explosive power of a 200mm HE round...
can i get a 200mm for my temp?
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Originally posted by Morpheus
can i get a 200mm for my temp?
Sure, you can have mine. I'm getting installed a 280mm railway gun. :D
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
You guys need to realize, you're hit probability is going to be worse with cannons, due to balistics.
So no, cannon's are fine the way they are.
Not sure I agree there...
ROF likely comes into play there...
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Quite often planes that are being hit are also evading and under a Gee-load. A hit while pulling Gee’s is more likely to break/rip a wing off.
It’s kind of like bending a small tree before striking it with a machete; one chop is all it takes.
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P.S.
The first fighter pilot I ever met (I was a kid) was a Viet-Nam F-4 pilot. He told me that a single 20 mm shell could tear a wing off of a plane.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
P.S.
The first fighter pilot I ever met (I was a kid) was a Viet-Nam F-4 pilot. He told me that a single 20 mm shell could tear a wing off of a plane.
A guy that used to work for my father said the samething about the 20mm cannon that was on the F-14 Tomcat. The guy had just mustered out of the Navy after spending 15 years flying the Tomcat. I had asked him once about how lethal the gun was and that's when he told me that one well placed 20mm round could remove a tail section or a wing but you'd have a better chance of a for sure kill with a 3 second burst. Not many fighters could survive a solid hit from a 3 second burst of 20mm cannon rounds.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Larry
.50 cals are good. They wernt HE so when they hit all they did was make a hole. When a cannon round hits it detonates on contact. Its like what I said when people were taking about how .50cals would take longer to take out ack. Get a few of your friends in a circle and fire a .50 cal into the ground. All that will happen is you will get dirt on you. Now drop a grenade on the ground and see what happens.
Must be amazingly tough AAA gunners to ignore hundreds of 50 cal
landing around them just because they didn't "explode".
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Originally posted by Rino
Must be amazingly tough AAA gunners to ignore hundreds of 50 cal
landing around them just because they didn't "explode".
What option did they have? Run from behind their gun shield, out in the .50 cal fire?
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Originally posted by Morpheus
can i get a 200mm for my temp?
LOL! I was wondering if I was the only one who noticed that - Reminds me of the show on the history channel talking about the effectiveness of the six 50 mm machine guns the P-51 carried. . .
BTW - a 30mm round is not "as big as your fist." It's just over an inch in diameter. (1.2 inches?) For example, 10mm pistol round is roughly .40 of an inch.
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NO!
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Originally posted by Rino
Must be amazingly tough AAA gunners to ignore hundreds of 50 cal
landing around them just because they didn't "explode".
Well most AA guns had armor shields so Id rather be behind one then run with no cover. I think you missed the whole piont I was trying to make I wasnt talking about the gunners I was talking about .50 cals not being able to take the guns out like the HE cannons do.
Then again this is a game would you like your 37mm maned ack to stop fireing when a plane is shooting at it? I bet there would be alot of whines if they did that.
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I'm still waiting for a filmed evidence of a previously undamaged plane 'falling apart' with a single 20mm round...
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Cool video Spatula
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I got lucky with a burst from my P51 a while ago... a spitfire was in a left turn about 600ft ahead of me.. i squeezed the trigger for a split second while the sight was ahead of the target, guessing the deflection shot, and he exploded. Only fired a few rounds, but obviously landed a lucky hit or two.
Nothing to do with cannon rounds, I just wanted to boast lol :lol
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(http://[img]http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/204_1128316559_fw190dvsp47nmod3copy.jpg)[/IMG]
Why blow someone up when you can shred them into little pieces 104 rounds per trigger pull?
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Originally posted by Pacifica
P.S.--- I'm not pretending I'm a pro that gets kills whenever I please, I just feel that cannon rds should be scaled back in the damage they do---for a better gaming experience...
In all honesty, I kindda agree with you; however, I think we are asking for something with the wrong reasons. There is always those times when someone with cannons (mainly the british 20mm lasers) 800d from you goes for the spray and pray, and a lucky hit gets your vertical stabilizer, and end of the game it is. This is specially annoying when going for the rope a dope, and someone just squeezes their trigger for all that is worth, right before they stall, just as you are preparing to pounce on them as they fall from the sky, and sure enough, there goes your tail. :mad:
Anyway, overall, I am sure the lethality of the 20mm is probably more accurate than we think; however, the problem I have is with how the british 20mm makes the german 20mm seem like something coming out of a potato cannon. Incredibly accurate and lethal at such long distances.
Emu.
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Emu,
What you aren't taking into account is the price paid for the fighters with the Hispano cannons. 20mm cannon weights:
Hispano Mk II / M2 20mm cannon: 50kg
MG151/20 20mm cannon: 42kg
ShVAK 20mm cannon: 42kg
Type 99 Model 2 20mm cannon: 34-38kg
Ho-5 20mm cannon: 37kg
B-20 20mm cannon: 25kg
And then the ammunition for the Hispano is larger and heavier than the other 20mm cannons too. By the end of it the Hispano armed fighters are paying a significant penalty in weight to carry those cannons with enough ammunition to be useful.
In other words, arm them with Axis or Russian 20mm cannons and they'd be more agile and better handling.
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I disagree oh so much I want to shout!
8kg is about 16lbs. Keep in mind a lot of the Hispano armed planes have a lot less ammo than the other armed planes (consider n1k2, fw190s, 109s even! Ki's, C2, etc etc...).
Planes with hispanos are at no weight disadvantage, at all!
Take a spitfire, sit on the runway. Pull up E6B, note the weight. Fire all cannon. Note the weight. Divide the difference by 240 (pounds per round, basically).
All in all the Hispanos are the most lethal cannon in the game for range, aim, and reliability. They weigh almost the same as the average 20mm cannon in this game, and the round itself isn't much heavier than the average 20mm, and it often carries less (read: weighs less) than contemporary 20mms.
IMO Hispanos have no drawbacks.
EDIT:
Weights I already checked (months ago) on the 190a8, ammo only.
950 13mm rounds = 171 lbs
500 20mm rounds = 242 lbs
280 20mm rounds = 136 lbs (outboard)
110 30mm rounds = 143 lbs (outboard)
Sure it's the extreme, but almost 250lbs of inboard 20mm alone! Forget about the n1k2! Forget about a 109 with gondolas! Heck, even a 109 with just the nose gun carries more RPG than the average spit (150 rounds) and the F-4/G-2 have a 200 round option that is almost twice the RPG of the spitfire, all for a single gun.
EDIT 2:
109G-6 (150 rounds hub gun) with gondies:
Basic 20mm ammo weight = 73 lbs
Gondola 20mm ammo weight = 121 lbs
Total gondolas weight = 507 lbs
Empty gondolas = 386 lbs
each gondola = 193 lbs
I doubt spits carry that much weight around, and are probably more lethal than a gondie carrying 109.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I'm still waiting for a filmed evidence of a previously undamaged plane 'falling apart' with a single 20mm round...
You won't get it from me, I don't film a damn thing.
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Krusty,
It is an issue. The ammo bins are larger, and weigh more. The armor for the ammo bins are larger and weigh more (yes, the cannon ammo in Spitfires had armor over the front).
All these things add up.
Yes, the gun by itself is only about 17lbs heavier. 34lbs in a two gun installation. Then add the weight for the ammo and you end up with either less ammo or more weight or both. Then add the weight of the larger ammo bins and ammo protection. Then add in any additional things, such as the streamlining sheaths on the Spitfire's and Typhoon's cannons.
How much over the weight of a two MG151/20 installation with 120 rounds per gun do you think the Spitfire's Hispano installation is?
I'd be curious to know really.
Of course, the Ho-5 looks even better and the B-20 is just insanely light.
Bringing gondolas into it is comparing apples to oranges and is invalid. Use the Fw190A-5 to compare to a Spitfire Mk IX or something like that.
Maybe an Fw190D-9 and Spitfire Mk XIV.
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He was shocked by the destructive capability of the cannons compared to his old .303s.
honestly you cant compare those 2 a .303 to 20mm thats like apples and oranges concerning hitting power. But other then that i agree with that and must say the damage is fine the way it is, i survive more then 1 cannon hit alot and im in 109e's p40s hurr1s pretty much crap planes and they take more then 4-5 before me wing rips off, 90% of the time they either hit fuel,pilot, or stabs before i even lose a wing. Other then that i think your getting hit in cockpit or your enemy has previously hit your wing cause 95% of the people i fight either fire all weapons at the same time or they are armed with nothing BUT cannon so its more then 1 round more like 1x the ammount your enemy has.
but what do i know
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Is someone talking about taking off a wing with a single 20mm cannon round? I'm in.
Malta