Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: LYNX on April 25, 2007, 10:47:35 AM
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Name this maneuver (centre picture).
(http://[img]http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1090_1177515623_learner2.jpg)[/IMG]
What purpose did it serve?
What would you now do if you was the P51?
P.S the other plane is a Hurri IIC
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Edwards AFB:
SkatSr or Steve at reentry ! :D
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Originally posted by ghi
Edwards AFB:
SkatSr or Steve at reentry ! :D
:rofl yes ....very good.
But back on topic. Perhaps we can get some of our learners to pick up the baton and get into the mind set of the situation presented.
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That was a split-s, hmk nicely evaded, but very close, if i were in the pony, i would have chopped throttle and pulled my nose down a bit more and fire.
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No, you got it wrong - you're looking at it from the wrong direction. It's the classic HOFBLO maneuver.
The Hurri2C started out low, and pulled up into a vertical HO attempt when he saw the 51 coming in on him. He managed to get his nose around, but couldn't quite land the shot. The 51 zoomed past and is now continuing to build speed for his run for home. Meanwhile, the Hurri pilot has rolled wings level and is waiting for his opportunity to repeat the HOFLBO maneuver in case the Pony driver realizes that there's no other threat for 7.5 sectors around, and turns back.
As I said, the classic "Head On From Below".
:aok
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If I'm the Pony I'd execute a hi yo-yo.
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Split Esse.
51... Well, A Split Esse is an E killer so even a flat turn here would do, but I agree with Max. I'd do a Yo-Yo, though personally I'd go Low-Yo-Yo to try and drop out of sight. High Yo-Yo would work too but the Hurri is always going to be able to turn in and even with a low Yo-Yo the Pony is going to have enough E to zoom up and away if he does. The low yo-yo though offers the chance of the Hurri losing sight of me altogether and having to perform some "blind" evasives.
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Too much compression in the jpg file :)
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the hurri pulled a split S to avoid the BnZ attack of the high, fast pony. pulling this maneuver is a great way to avoid such a threat, but it doesn't give you an offensive position afterwards, so it's much more of a defensive maneuver than a reversal. in essence, the hurri just signed his own death certificate if the pony driver is any good.
all pony need to is keep his E advantage by pulling a wide immelman and drop down on the now low and fairly slow hurri (split S wastes a lot of E).
a better way of avoiding this attack, but also leaving you in a position to equalise E states and take a pop at the pony would be a high break turn. given closure rates, this would make you hard to hit, while also gaining you E (alt counts as E just as much as airspeed does). after he passes try to climb to him, otherwise he will be out of reach
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
(alt counts as E just as much as airspeed does)....
Good advice on the move -- but a quibble here about energy. Am I correct in remembering that energy is proportional to velocity squared times potential energy (alt)?
Read that somewhere on the boards, and kinda remembering it was from HT himself.
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what biggles said.
basically the hurri was pulling a last ditch evasive with no hope of making it more than an evasive.
pony is laughing and if it was me the hurri would be dead within another 30 seconds.
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
the hurri pulled a split S to avoid the BnZ attack of the high, fast pony. pulling this maneuver is a great way to avoid such a threat, but it doesn't give you an offensive position afterwards, so it's much more of a defensive maneuver than a reversal. in essence, the hurri just signed his own death certificate if the pony driver is any good.
all pony need to is keep his E advantage by pulling a wide immelman and drop down on the now low and fairly slow hurri (split S wastes a lot of E).
a better way of avoiding this attack, but also leaving you in a position to equalise E states and take a pop at the pony would be a high break turn. given closure rates, this would make you hard to hit, while also gaining you E (alt counts as E just as much as airspeed does). after he passes try to climb to him, otherwise he will be out of reach
You are correct. It's a split esse and in this situation being zoomed by the higher faster con, is a defensive maneuver. However, the rest is just plain WRONG. You are 180 degree wrong with your concept of "E".
1) Split esse gains "E"
2) A high brake turn blows "E"
Sorry mate. Marking your paper with a D. You can transfere ALT for "E" and "E" for ALT but the laws of phyisic don't allow you to transfere "E" for ALT & E.
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depending on my speed if i was the hurri i woudl have pulled up and over to force over shot but giving the illusion to the pony that he had a shot on me whilst making him follow me part way through my turn before he over shot to burn some of his E. If I didn't have a shot as he went by, it would be rinse and repeat. That is how i made a living in the 38 or other slower planes such as spit5 but works great in any fighter if you know what you are doing and with a little adjustment here and there for each individual fighter.
split s, if thats what that was, can't tell because there is no hurri in the pic, is a last ditch resort deffence manuver. Works nice, but gives you nothing in return for offence.
i have some good films of levi doing similar tactics for over shot as well as my own up on my site somewhere if you can find them.
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All joking about HO'ing aside, Major Biggles is essentially correct - he is just (very appropriately) looking at the bigger picture. If you think of the maneuver as a single component in an engagement which is a series of maneuvers, and view it in terms of the RELATIVE energy state after maneuvering for the Hurricane pilot, a high break turn would CONSERVE more of the Hurricane's current energy than the split-esse that is shown. (This is what he was referring to, if you read it more carefully.)
The trade-off for the high break turn over the split-esse is that the split-esse is going to be almost "idiot proof" and virtually guarantee success for at least one maneuver - by which time the situation may have changed. The high break turn is much harder to time especially for someone who's not skilled in BOTH aircraft involved, and if you misjudge lag and/or relative speed and maneuverability, you are one flaming Hurricane.
Another defensive maneuver for the skilled pilot would be the defensive barrel roll, which while even harder to time properly, if done successfully will leave the IIC with a very good - perhaps even excellent - shot opportunity after the overshoot. The trade-off here is that it's even more risky than a break turn if you misjudge it.
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Looks like a big "k" to me. I bet it was followed by an "f" then a "c".
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I know who flys a Hurri2C alot and who doesn't fly a Mustang much .
My guess is LYNX is in the Hurri (mumbes that it should be a Hurri1 :P )
Perhaps we can get some of our learners to pick up the baton
Do I get to answer or not ? I know I can be very nubeish at times :furious
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Originally posted by LYNX
You are correct. It's a split esse and in this situation being zoomed by the higher faster con, is a defensive maneuver. However, the rest is just plain WRONG. You are 180 degree wrong with your concept of "E".
1) Split esse gains "E"
2) A high brake turn blows "E"
Sorry mate. Marking your paper with a D. You can transfere ALT for "E" and "E" for ALT but the laws of phyisic don't allow you to transfere "E" for ALT & E.
i see you've never had a lesson from badboy, the master of energy fighting.
basically lynx, that split S is a big E waster. every turn, EVERY turn, no matter how small or wide bleeds e, that's simply a matter of physics. in order to pull that split S you lose a lot of alt (which counts towards E itself) and at the bottom of it you haven't increased speed dramatically. so basically you've just blown loads of E for no reason. in an energy fight you should always go up, never down. that's why you immelman on merge, not split S.
if you go down you lose E. the faster you go the more drag, the lower you are the less potential energy you have, and when you move faster you have to pull harder to turn which wastes more E.
going up gains alt (potential energy. think of this as putting energy in the bank. you can always get it back out. diving and getting your speed up will lose energy as much of it is wasted as drag)
going up also puts you in a far better position to attack after the guy passes. perhaps badboy will come in and say a bit about this if he sees this post, he's very knowledgable on E fighting, i believe he has some connection with bob shaw and many combat flight instructors.
in essence though, go up in an energy fight. it 'banks' your E which you can always get back out, and it allows you to turn better. the hurri (i presume you) should have gone up. just because he performed a split S doesn't mean he loses of course, you may have won the fight. but a good pony pilot would have torn you to shreds if you gave him an advantage like that. judging by the photo though, he has no idea how to BnZ properly (good BnZ is far more than hiding in the akakosphere, making 1 pass and running), so you probably survived that sortie.
seriously though, you don't fully understand the concept of energy in dogfighting. try and search for some of badboy's posts. he taught me E fighting and for a few months it was all i did. i was fairly good at it too, if i may say so myself.
as bat said, that pony could have won the fight in 30 secs after that maneuver. don't take the ignorance of your enemy for granted, one day a well flown stuka will kick your arse (long story, lets not go there :D)
do a search on E fighting lynx, you'll find it informative. try searching through simHQ too :) good luck, and i hope i explained a bit with this post. perhaps i will do a proper writeup for the help and training forum sometime :)
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Originally posted by Simaril
Good advice on the move -- but a quibble here about energy. Am I correct in remembering that energy is proportional to velocity squared times potential energy (alt)?
Read that somewhere on the boards, and kinda remembering it was from HT himself.
If i remember my physics it's kinetic energy = .5mv^2
Where 'm' is the mass and 'v' is velocity
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Originally posted by clerick
If i remember my physics it's kinetic energy = .5mv^2
Where 'm' is the mass and 'v' is velocity
and gravitational potential energy = mgh
i think simaril is right, the airspeed is more energy wise than the GPE.
but think of it this way, when your plane is travelling at full speed, it's thrust and drag are equal right? that means that all of your plane's power is going straight to drag (wasting thousands upon thousands of joules of energy). Pulling a split S not only takes all the GPE you have built up by climbing for 5 minutes and converting it straight to drag but it puts you at a lower alt making your energy disadvantage even worse.
never go down in a dogfight unless it's to make the kill
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somewhat off topic, but i'm curious, does anyone have in their plane specs the coefficient of drag for some of these aircraft?
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Originally posted by clerick
somewhat off topic, but i'm curious, does anyone have in their plane specs the coefficient of drag for some of these aircraft?
i'm pretty sure it's included in many aircraft specs and blueprints. it's something HTC would need to accurately model planes in the game. i'm pretty sure it's quite common to find drag coefficient even in some test data
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Not trying to poke you in the eye Biggles, but your observations are confusing ...
going up gains alt (potential energy. think of this as putting energy in the bank. you can always get it back out.
OK ... this I agree with ... now ... how does one get the E out of the bank ?
Would not diving or going nose low pull E from the bank and turn it into speed ?
Isn't that what one would need E for ... speed ... speed can then be translated back to alt, which in turn puts E back in the bank or the speed can be used for whatever the pilot decides he/she needs it for.
In the case of the Split-S ... he has turned in his E for speed (in the opposite direction) which can be then traded back for alt if so desired or use the increased speed to cause separation.
in order to pull that split S you lose a lot of alt (which counts towards E itself) and at the bottom of it you haven't increased speed dramatically.
Not what I see. I can, and do it on purpose at times, is Split-S in a F6-F ... get my speed up going down ... pull up with WEP and will arrive at a higher alt than when I started the Split-S. At the bottom of the Split-S, just before I pull up, I can guarantee that my speed is considerably faster than when I entered the Split-S.
When trailing bombers, I can put the nose down (transfer E for speed) and then use that speed for closure and then transfer the speed back into potential E when climbing under the bombers for the shot.
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Originally posted by LYNX
Name this maneuver (centre picture).
(http://[img]http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1090_1177515623_learner2.jpg)[/IMG]
Split Esse
Originally posted by LYNX
What purpose did it serve?
Defensive maneuver to avoid a BnZ attack which apparently seemed to have worked for the short term.......
Originally posted by LYNX
What would you now do if you was the P51?
I would continue to roll my lift vector toward the hurri2C and pull an instantaneous turn riding the tunnel since I have some speed ( E ) to actually burn and keep the attack ON at the current time in the screenshot...the Hurri2C most times would not expect a BnZ ing pony to keep in the attack, most times would think they would climb back up and continue again to BnZ.......if I failed to make the shot on the 2nd attack, I would then zoom up and drag the Hurri til he floundered then roll over and pull nose down and go THUMP him in the head........
Biggles, I did not see anything where LYNX mentioned the Hurri was "Energy Fighting".......the Hurri should be trying to sucker that P51 into stall/turn/angles fighting...the P51 should be the main honcho worrying/thinking about his "Energy".........
but for some of your thoughts on "E" fighting , yes it is most times better to fightUP :aok
nice short explanation Slappy, also on the gaining closure for Bombers, there is a write-up/Lecture regarding how to close distance when chasing at / near same alt.....as you describe slight dive then climb when u reach em.......
LYNX,
a Split Esse blows potential E, gains kinetic E......
a High ( taking this "HIGH" to mean vertical going up ) break turn Blows kinetic E but gains Potential E.......
both of you are wrong and right , ROFL.......;)
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... I think I'll just stay in a GV and keep it 2 dimensional.... :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Not trying to poke you in the eye Biggles, but your observations are confusing ...
going up gains alt (potential energy. think of this as putting energy in the bank. you can always get it back out.
OK ... this I agree with ... now ... how does one get the E out of the bank ?
Would not diving or going nose low pull E from the bank and turn it into speed ?
Isn't that what one would need E for ... speed ... speed can then be translated back to alt, which in turn puts E back in the bank or the speed can be used for whatever the pilot decides he/she needs it for.
In the case of the Split-S ... he has turned in his E for speed (in the opposite direction) which can be then traded back for alt if so desired or use the increased speed to cause separation.
in order to pull that split S you lose a lot of alt (which counts towards E itself) and at the bottom of it you haven't increased speed dramatically.
Not what I see. I can, and do it on purpose at times, is Split-S in a F6-F ... get my speed up going down ... pull up with WEP and will arrive at a higher alt than when I started the Split-S. At the bottom of the Split-S, just before I pull up, I can guarantee that my speed is considerably faster than when I entered the Split-S.
When trailing bombers, I can put the nose down (transfer E for speed) and then use that speed for closure and then transfer the speed back into potential E when climbing under the bombers for the shot.
of course you can get the speed back out, that's the point. but transferring the alt to speed, then back again will lose E (basic physics, some E is lost). i'm talking purely from the energy fighting point of view here, where the hurri MUST try to equalise the E, especially against a superior E fighter such as a pony, if it wants to live. this is assuming equal pilots. lynx is an OK stick, and from the looks of it the pony doesn't really know what he's doing.
when you do your thing in the F6F, you may get back to the same alt but you will be going slower right? so you're back to the same place, but you've lost some E, when in this hurri's situation, you need to be doing your best to build it.
split S wastes E, it's a simple fact. you've turned the GPE that was your alt into speed, which gets sucked away by drag and a tight turn. you go back up again and gain GPE but you've lost a lot of airspeed.
the ONLY things effecting your E as a plane in the end, are your engine, and drag. you want to maximise the energy gained and minimise energy lost. faster you go, the more energy is wasted, which is bad news if you're in this situation.
as for chasing bombers, the same goes for fighters, you can speed up a bit to try and close the gap and get a shot. but when you come back up to your original alt, you will be going slower right? that's the point, you've lost E. same thing with pulling a split S.
aside from the fact that it's not the best way to go about energy fighting, and it increases your energy disadvantage, it doesn't give you a chance to shoot at the pony, and he is now even higher above you, making it even easier for him.
split S was the wrong thing to do in this case, unless there was absolutely no other option (saw him too late and break turn would have just given a nice easy profile shot)
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good post TC :aok
i seriously hope badboy will see this and add to this. i thought just as you guys did until he totally schooled me, then taught me. TC, remember you asked how i keep my E so well in koth? it is exactly this, minimising energy wastage.
as for the hurri not energy fighting, that's a tough one. if he's at too much of a disadvantage the pony will be in total control, and the hurri is a slow bugger, he's dead meat. if he uses the opportunities he has to gain E he can more successfully try to equalise the E states and have a better chance of winning (going from zero to highly unlikely :D). equal pilots of course :)
just gotta add that this is what makes dogfighting/duelling so much fun. so many styles, so many views, it's what makes each fight unique, that's where the fun is.
blowing up buildings and blasting tanks can be some quick arcade fun for 30 mins, but there is NOTHING that compares to having a good fight between two good pilots, each with their own styles, and overcoming them to win.
a duel in AH is the single most enjoyable experience of any game i have ever played, constantly learning and adapting to enhance your game. it keeps you on your toes and means that the game can never get stale
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Not trying to poke you in the eye Biggles, but your observations are confusing ...
going up gains alt (potential energy. think of this as putting energy in the bank. you can always get it back out.
OK ... this I agree with ... now ... how does one get the E out of the bank ?
Would not diving or going nose low pull E from the bank and turn it into speed ?
Yes this is true
Isn't that what one would need E for ... speed ... speed can then be translated back to alt, which in turn puts E back in the bank or the speed can be used for whatever the pilot decides he/she needs it for.
if you start at say, 10,000 you have 'X' amount of potential energy. By diving and converting potential to kinetic energy you are just changing one form for another. if you were to pull back up towards 10,000 feet you would arrive there at the same speed as when you first dove. BUT that is in an ideal physical world without drag or other forces robbing you of energy.
Not what I see. I can, and do it on purpose at times, is Split-S in a F6-F ... get my speed up going down ... pull up with WEP and will arrive at a higher alt than when I started the Split-S. At the bottom of the Split-S, just before I pull up, I can guarantee that my speed is considerably faster than when I entered the Split-S.
notice that if you did that same manuver without WEP you probably wouldnt make it back to your starting altitude and if you did it would be at a significantly reduced speed.
Imagine coasting down a hill in your car, as you coast you are trading potential for kinetic energy, i.e. speed. When you get to the bottom and start up the next hill you start to slow down as you trade kinetic for potential energy, i.e. height. You should also notice that without hitting the gas (or WEP in your example) you wont get to nearly the same height coasting up the hill as when you started coasting down (hope that makes sense). This is because friction between the wheels and the road, the car and the air, the bearings in the wheels and any number of things are turning your potential energy into heat energy and this means that you dont have as much kinetic energy as you did potential.
mgh = .5mv^2 + E1 + E2 + E...
If you add up al the energy used to create friction and heat and drag AND add to that the maximum kinetic energy you will have the maximum potential energy. That means that in the real world turning potential energy into kinetic is a losing proposition.
When trailing bombers, I can put the nose down (transfer E for speed) and then use that speed for closure and then transfer the speed back into potential E when climbing under the bombers for the shot.
If you notice that before your dive you may be cruising at about 10,000 ft at 300 mph, you dive and get close to 350-375, you pull back up and climb back to 10,000 ft, but you are now maybe going 200-250 mph, with WEP maybe close to 300.
wow, that was long winded and i'm sure that someone beat me to this...
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great post clerick, better explanation than i could come up with.
basically slapshot, if you dive down, you'll get faster, but if you pull back to the same alt, you will be going significantly slower than before, because you've lost E in your turn and to drag.
as for taking E out the bank, you dive of course, but coming back up will waste E. i was talking purely from the hurri's point of view where he needs to build as much E as possible to fight the pony.
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Biggles,
I am fully aware of Badz, badboy, Leon...I have trained with him for over 10 years..........and completely enjoy dueling him.....
to make myself more clearer, LYNX had asked some specific questions in opening this thread.........that is why I posted which plane should be playing what role in the fight.( what type of fighting style ) The hurri is slow and turns better, so as you put it, he should be suckering the P51, bleeding his E down at every chance, so he can outmaneuver him with angles/stall type fighting.....
actually both planes if the pilots are of any decent skill, should be religiously thinking "E Management"..........but the P51 in my mind should be "E Fighting"........not just bore n zoom.......
clerick, physics show what you post to be very valid..........but now do a search for Badboy's "The Chase" write-up.......and you'll understand what Slapshot and I mentioned when runing down a set of Bombers, a runtard, a clueless lemming.......
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
clerick, physics show what you post to be very valid..........but now do a search for Badboy's "The Chase" write-up.......and you'll understand what Slapshot and I mentioned when runing down a set of Bombers, a runtard, a clueless lemming.......
yes, that works because you trade some alt for speed, you close the gap, get close enough for a shot, pull up and shoot, but when you get back to your original alt, you're going slower than you were, correct? you close the gap because you've increased speed. energy doesn't mean anything in that situation, all you want is to close the distance, so it's a great trick.
as for the hurri, yes it should be getting the pony to turn with it, but do you disagree that it should be going up and trying to equalise E, going on the offensive and trying to sucker him in for the kill?
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wouldnt the pony have been better off pulling an immel or a high yo-yo, trading back some speed for more E AND gaining a better position over the hurri who is by now slow?
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E is not just speed. what we all need to be clear on, and biggles' main point highlights it, is that a Split-S does infact waste Energy. It gains speed but throws away altitude, in short. now what biggles is describing is not blowing E at all, but using every last horse in the little hurri2c to provide a shot oppertunity and possibly enough to scre the P51 away for 2 mins.
now the flip side of this, in my mind, is that infact a Split S will gain you an Energy Adantage if, and only if the P51 banks round hard and follows you down.
lets say the P51's first pass was co altitude, at around 400mph, the hurricane at 270mph flying level untill the moment when the spit S was forced to avoid being shot. that is a last minute evasive, no matter if planned or on reflex. should the p51 bank hard and try to follow you down, the average pilot at 400mph will probably burn down to 300mph easily before diving after the hurri, who is now going 300 mph also in a steep dive, giving chances for reversals, snapshot, scissors, whatever, untill the pony figures hes in trouble and runs along, which wouldnt be difficult unless he really commited to turn fight.
So, yes the split S has given you an E advantage by the errors of the opposition.
now, if i am correct, what biggles is suggesting is to start exactly the same cycle for the first pass. the pony and hurri co-alt again, pony is 3.0k behind at 400mph and the 270mph hurri starts a shallow dives up to 300mph, the P51 follows gaining even more speed.
right as the dive acceleration on the hurricane maxes out, preferably you would time this for the moment the p51 lines up his shot at 500yrds, is the moment to pull your move and make a shot.
why waste time draggin the pony lower in the split-s unless its a last minute evasive when you can just as easily do the same moves from a 'give yer tail' tail merge.
amazing how many fast plane flyers will **** up on the first attack if you bait them right from 6.0k icon range. not nearly so many will make a mistake on the second attack.
S!
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no, I do not disagree, going up was an available option, although it was not taken.......
LYNX asked specific question, so I answered them as precise as i could with what I see, that was already done....
if you can and you have the speed to go up, then yes go up.......although don't do it textbook........( meaning same thing always, every fight is different and the movements of attack/counter/recounter should be fluid and dynamic forever changing in relation to that particular fight , guess what I am saying is yes is good to go up, but then again it is good to go down sometimes, and heck maybe even sideways ;) )
there is so many UNKNOWN variables in this simple screenshot , that really opens the door for a flood of differing opinions.......
LYNX, sorry that a bunch of old seasoned players keep spamming your tactical questions for new learners/players..........but please keep them coming they are fun.......
and as for the "simple screenshots" they are good for making people think and help people to learn how to read the situation at a glance, but also might be good to have little short video clips or shot ah film clips to help further, like right before the merge until the fight is done or little clips of each individual merge/reversal....
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just for the record i wasnt aiming my post at anyone, simply trying to make the mole hill biggles started that got blown into a mountain, back into a mole hill.
i think the thread is informative and a good read.
especially my posts.
:D
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My posts were longer AND had formulas. NEENER!
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I was trying to keep it simple....the KISS theory....for the one 4 the learners #2 thread.........:p
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i dont have the math skills to use how ever you spell the plural of forumla, im more of a freestyle skateboarding type dude who either lands something sick or breaks his arms :)
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
just for the record i wasnt aiming my post at anyone, simply trying to make the mole hill biggles started that got blown into a mountain, back into a mole hill.
i think the thread is informative and a good read.
especially my posts.
:D
i always seem to do that :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
... you close the gap because you've increased speed. energy doesn't mean anything in that situation, all you want is to close the distance, so it's a great trick....
Absolutely important point if you're thinking in energy terms. Took me a long while to learn this, and again it was Badboy's Pursuit article at SimHQ that made it clear.
Simple answer -- IF YOU BURN E TO GET THE KILL, YOU WON.
From an energy retention standpoint, the dive to build speed clearly loses energy. But, the don't forget -- the goal of E fighting is NOT to retain E. It is to kill the enemy!
And that's why this is a good move. The example that led me to the Badboy article happened about a year or so ago. I was in a Tempest and found a higher Nik engaging me from the long high 6. I went into a shallow climb, knowing that would eventually give me the energy advantage over the ultimately slower nik -- but the nik dove more aggressively than I expected, converting his alt into speed that he used to close on my plane from the low 6. I kept waiting for my engine power to outpace him, but he kept getting closer until I had to dive some to keep separation.
That frustrated me, because I knew that I should have been increasing my energy advantage.... and I was! But I had forgotten the real goal of the fight, killing before being killed.
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its not you biggles, its everyone else, and everone else can say the same about everyone else..
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formulas is just as acceptable as formulae. so stick that in your pipeses and smoke it! :D
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people ask why spend so much money smoking just to shorten your life, i always figured its still cheaper than a pension and stick at it you wont need the pension anyhow. even so i may have to decline your kind pipe smokage offer and go sort out those muppets at the dictionary who cant decide which way to spell formulii one way or the other.
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i hates those formuleces to pieces
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Originally posted by LYNX
Sorry mate. Marking your paper with a D. You can transfere ALT for "E" and "E" for ALT but the laws of phyisic don't allow you to transfere "E" for ALT & E.
Sorry but you're wrong.
E is the combined state of kinetic energy (speed) and potential energy (alt). Either form of energy can be traded for the other maintaining the same overall energy state, therefore, you can transfer alt for SPEED or SPEED for alt but you can't transfer speed for alt and speed.
[EDIT] Subject to some potential marginal loss due to gravity and/or friction/drag.
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baldeagl is right. imagine lynx that you are flying at 10k at 300 mph
you dive to 5k and are now flying at 550mph. your energy level is exactly the same as it was before though (ideal world physics). in actual fact you'd have lost a bit of E because of drag, but lets forget about that.
simple fact is that speed and alt are joined. the energy level is exactly the same at 10k and 5k. E consists of both alt and E ;)
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Sorry but you're wrong.
E is the combined state of kinetic energy (speed) and potential energy (alt). Either form of energy can be traded for the other maintaining the same overall energy state, therefore, you can transfer alt for SPEED or SPEED for alt but you can't transfer speed for alt and speed.
Gets me thinking.. when we as fighter pilotses talk about e-states it is often implied that E refers to potential energy, at least thats how it is often worded. This is technically incorrect.
But, what i'm wondering is when talking about co-E does that include a lower faster con and higher slower con? If you add up the potential and kinetic energy of both planes they are both at the same total E, but are they truely co-E as we talk about in terms of BCM?
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Originally posted by clerick
Gets me thinking.. when we as fighter pilotses talk about e-states it is often implied that E refers to potential energy, at least thats how it is often worded. This is technically incorrect.
But, what i'm wondering is when talking about co-E does that include a lower faster con and higher slower con? If you add up the potential and kinetic energy of both planes they are both at the same total E, but are they truely co-E as we talk about in terms of BCM?
yup, pretty much :) atleas that's how i always thought about it
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Originally posted by clerick
But, what i'm wondering is when talking about co-E does that include a lower faster con and higher slower con? If you add up the potential and kinetic energy of both planes they are both at the same total E, but are they truely co-E as we talk about in terms of BCM?
Given the appropriate speed differences a faster lower con may be at the exact same E state as a higher slower con which is what makes judging E such a tricky business but one we all need to take into account.
Most people mistakenly think speed is E and discuss acm in such terms. This is simply wrong.
Think about it this way. In a B'n'Z you start high at say, 400 mph. You dive 2000 feet to your target reaching lets say slightly over 500 mph. You fire and begin your zoom climb. Without gravity or drag (easily overcome by using WEP) you end up at your starting altitude and speed. You're E state remained constant throughout. Your alt changed by 2000 feet and your speed changed by slightly over 100 mph but you're overall E state remained constant.
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Originally posted by clerick
Gets me thinking.. when we as fighter pilotses talk about e-states it is often implied that E refers to potential energy, at least thats how it is often worded. This is technically incorrect.
But, what i'm wondering is when talking about co-E does that include a lower faster con and higher slower con? If you add up the potential and kinetic energy of both planes they are both at the same total E, but are they truely co-E as we talk about in terms of BCM?
This is how I had put it...
"E" refers to the total kinetic, and potential energy you have available to you at any given moment.
It is also important to note that because the two types of energy ARE interchangeable, a lower, fast plane and a higher, slower plane may have equal E. Think about it a second. If the low plane converts it's kinetic energy into potential energy by climbing, it may well end up the same altitude and speed as the plane above it.
But on and even more practical term, I often view it in the context of the theoretical maxium altitude that can be achived while still maintaining controled flight at a given instant. Because it can often come down to that in a fight.
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Originally posted by Murdr
It is also important to note that because the two types of energy ARE interchangeable, a lower, fast plane and a higher, slower plane may have equal E. Think about it a second. If the low plane converts it's kinetic energy into potential energy by climbing, it may well end up the same altitude and speed as the plane above it.
But on and even more practical term, I often view it in the context of the theoretical maxium altitude that can be achived while still maintaining controled flight at a given instant. Because it can often come down to that in a fight.
Right, i understand and agree 100%. What i guess i was questioning, too delicately maybe, was that often on these boards people talk about E in terms of ONLY the alt (potential) componant. I think that if enough people read this thread they will understand that there are 2 parts, kinetic AND potential.
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Originally posted by LYNX
Name this maneuver (centre picture).
Split S
What purpose did it serve?
It is impossible to say having this information. It depends on the speed of both planes.
If Hurry had speed around its maximum speed on that alt pilot did the stupidest thing. He just bled E, and get nothing in return. All that speculations about replacing alt for speed doesn't work in this case. He lost E without anyting in return. To understand that you just need to take drag in consideration:
- you have high speed, full throttle, stable condition, thrust equal drag.
- you dive, you get more speed
- you level on the lower alt, with higher speed
- but now drag is much more than your thrust (drag is proportional to the square of speed), and you will be decelerating, even with full thottle! After few seconds your speed drops to the same level that you had on the higher alt
- you just lost potential energy, and didn't get anything in exchange.
You had to go to immel in this situation.
If you was slow, split S is the best what you can do. In this case you really exchanged alt for speed, lost of energy was insignificant.
What would you now do if you was the P51?
P.S the other plane is a Hurri IIC
I would kill him in the both situations.
If speed was high, I would flat turn up to tunnel effect to burn as much energy as possible to equalize it, i don't need so much energy any more. What I need to kill Hurry is just the same speed and 1000-1500 alt advantage, Hurry doesn't climb well anyway.
If speed was slow, I would climb and immel with flaps. I would lose a lot of speed but get 2500-3000 more alt. Actually the same situation, and what I need is just to trade 1000 alt for speed, and I would have the same speed as Hurry plus alt agvantage.
In any case I would keep control of the fight.
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Originally posted by clerick
Right, i understand and agree 100%. What i guess i was questioning, too delicately maybe, was that often on these boards people talk about E in terms of ONLY the alt (potential) componant. I think that if enough people read this thread they will understand that there are 2 parts, kinetic AND potential.
Or if they visit the Trainers Site (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com) and happen to read the article it was cut from :)
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Originally posted by Murdr
Or if they visit the Trainers Site (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com) and happen to read the article it was cut from :)
Yeah yeah yeah, why does it ALWAYS have to be about Murdr? :aok
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It's all in how you look at it... being as how it's a screenshot from Aces High, this is my interpretation of what took place:
(http://ghastly.home.comcast.net/Learner2.jpg)
Clearly, it's the classic HOFBLO maneuver.
:rofl
!
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Originally posted by LYNX
Name this maneuver (centre picture).
(http://[img]http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1090_1177515623_learner2.jpg)[/IMG]
What purpose did it serve?
What would you now do if you was the P51?
P.S the other plane is a Hurri IIC
The P-51 has a couple of options. He could press the fight and keep pressure on the Hurricane by throttling back (so as not to overspeed) and follow Hurricane's maneuver with a Split-S of its own which would then put the P-51 in a good position for a shot if the Hurricane break turns.
Or, the P-51 could have gone vertical as the Hurricane did its Split-S and regain the altitude advantage and BnZ away on the Hurricane. The only problem with this is that you increase the seperation between both planes giving the Hurricane to put some distance between you and him as well as allowing the Hurricane to regain some energy and possibly some altitude.
I personally would press the attack.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ghastly
It's all in how you look at it... being as how it's a screenshot from Aces High, this is my interpretation of what took place:
(http://ghastly.home.comcast.net/Learner2.jpg)
Clearly, it's the classic HOFBLO maneuver.
:rofl
!
:)
The best, <>!
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
split S was the wrong thing to do in this case, unless there was absolutely no other option
I disagree with this as a blanket statement. Context matters. If I want this fight here and now, a split-s may come in 3rd place on my list of choices. If I want to drag out, delay, or move this fight to another location, a split-s may very well be my first choice.
split S wastes E, it's a simple fact. you've turned the GPE that was your alt into speed, which gets sucked away by drag and a tight turn. you go back up again and gain GPE but you've lost a lot of airspeed.
Context also matters here, but I don't feel like delving into the technical. Actually, all I'd really like to do is caution against beating up on a basic maneuver too severly in a thread for "learners". (I really had a good football playbook analogy to go with that, but it would be wasted on a thread full of brits)
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
The P-51 has a couple of options. He could press the fight and keep pressure on the Hurricane by throttling back (so as not to overspeed) and follow Hurricane's maneuver with a Split-S of its own which would then put the P-51 in a good position for a shot if the Hurricane break turns.
I personally would press the attack.
ack-ack
You?! You will never do that, you are too good to make such stupid mistake.
Take a look on the diving angle of P51. Nobody even you will be able to follow Hurry split S if dived with this angle. If you tried good Hurry pilot would make that perfect reverse what I saw few times in your implementation (if i'm right with my guess, and you are AKA). :)
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Oh dear, I have to swallow the humble pie. It's a tad gloopy but palatable with a cold one.
Major Biggles paper has been regraded to an A but then down graded to C for showing me up. For the sake of the learners my mistake was talking of speed as ENERGY, potential or other wise. BadEagl corrected the corrector with .....you can transfer alt for SPEED or SPEED for alt but you can't transfer speed for alt and speed. I really should have kept me clap trap shut ....my appols Major Biggles.
My error has made the thread err fluid to say the least. However, "E" fighting topics are, in my opinion, quite advanced for the learners. Something for another day but if learners want to read up on it Murdr has links + google has many threads.
To get back on topic I'll copy some replies.
Major Biggles
a better way of avoiding this attack, but also leaving you in a position to equalise E states and take a pop at the pony would be a high break turn. given closure rates, this would make you hard to hit, while also gaining you E (alt counts as E just as much as airspeed does). after he passes try to climb to him, otherwise he will be out of reach
Ghastly
The trade-off for the high break turn over the split-esse is that the split-esse is going to be almost "idiot proof" and virtually guarantee success for at least one maneuver - by which time the situation may have changed. The high break turn is much harder to time especially for someone who's not skilled in BOTH aircraft involved, and if you misjudge lag and/or relative speed and maneuverability, you are one flaming Hurricane.
TequilaChaser
I would continue to roll my lift vector toward the hurri2C and pull an instantaneous turn riding the tunnel since I have some speed ( E ) to actually burn and keep the attack ON at the current time in the screenshot...the Hurri2C most times would not expect a BnZ ing pony to keep in the attack, most times would think they would climb back up and continue again to BnZ.......if I failed to make the shot on the 2nd attack, I would then zoom up and drag the Hurri til he floundered then roll over and pull nose down and go THUMP him in the head........
lastly starting opening of page 3
VAD
If speed was high, I would flat turn up to tunnel effect to burn as much energy as possible to equalize it, i don't need so much energy any more. What I need to kill Hurry is just the same speed and 1000-1500 alt advantage, Hurry doesn't climb well anyway.
If speed was slow, I would climb and immel with flaps. I would lose a lot of speed but get 2500-3000 more alt. Actually the same situation, and what I need is just to trade 1000 alt for speed, and I would have the same speed as Hurry plus alt advantage.
In any case I would keep control of the fight.
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As I am not very good as a fighter pilot but in the interest of learning I will add my $.02..
The Hurri did a split esse to avoid the BnZ of the higher and apparently faster P-51.
IMO the purpose it served was to 1 avoid the BnZ and trade some alt for speed to possibly try and gain separation..
I would think the 51 should chop some (not alot) of throttle and pull an immelman which would put him on the high 6 of the hurri and would have bled off some speed..
At this time he can either press quickly for another BnZ attack or begin a slower decent onto the hurri to be better able to gain a shooting solution on the hurri who is still going to be lower and slower and is still on the defensive..
I would not however try and get into a turn fight with the hurri..
I would try and maintain an alt and speed advantage at all times during the fight.
As a fairly lousy fighter guy that is what I would probably do..
OK... commence with the Schooling :aok
P.S. Like the threads make for some good reading <<>>
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my apologies too lynx, didn't mean to show you up :(
keep these threads up though, it's not only good for the noobs but the vets too. you never stop learning in this game, infact i think i've started forgetting things!!
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Originally posted by sgt203
As I am not very good as a fighter pilot but in the interest of learning I will add my $.02..
The Hurri did a split esse to avoid the BnZ of the higher and apparently faster P-51.
IMO the purpose it served was to 1 avoid the BnZ and trade some alt for speed to possibly try and gain separation..
I would think the 51 should chop some (not alot) of throttle and pull an immelman which would put him on the high 6 of the hurri and would have bled off some speed..
At this time he can either press quickly for another BnZ attack or begin a slower decent onto the hurri to be better able to gain a shooting solution on the hurri who is still going to be lower and slower and is still on the defensive..
I would not however try and get into a turn fight with the hurri..
I would try and maintain an alt and speed advantage at all times during the fight.
As a fairly lousy fighter guy that is what I would probably do..
OK... commence with the Schooling :aok
P.S. Like the threads make for some good reading <<>>
not bad sgt :) although the split-S of the hurri isn't a great idea because it does make it easier for the pony :)
as for the pony and not turning, the great thing about the pony is that it doesn't need to turn, it's a much better E fighter than the hurri (don't confuse E fighting with BnZ). it can win the fight by using immelmans and things that the hurri can't follow. then you just rope him or chase him down ;)
important thing though is not to get suckered into the turnfight. keep your energy advantage and be aggressive, keep him on the defensive. you were fairly spot on though sgt, good job :)
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Looks like a big "k" to me. I bet it was followed by an "f" then a "c".
ROFLMAO :rofl
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There have been some interesting responses. Different idea's for the Hurri and the P51. All of which could be used. I think the bottom line for the p51 was said by VAD.....
In any case I would keep control of the fight.
p.s the p51 actually flew off. I killed him 4 or 5 min later over TT.
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Originally posted by LYNX
Name this maneuver (centre picture).
(http://[img]http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1090_1177515623_learner2.jpg)[/IMG]
What purpose did it serve?
What would you now do if you was the P51?
P.S the other plane is a Hurri IIC
i think its a split S. i would htink he did this to evade the pony commin at him at mach 3.4.......i think if i was that supersonic pony, i'd go back up, roll out level, and see what the hurri does next? if he gets stupid and tries to come up to me, i'll wait till i think he's bout to stall, or at least just realy low on E, then drop in for a quick shot........the one thing i would ABSOLUTLY NOT allow is for him to get those cannons pointed at me.........but i may be wrong here, as i'm still somewhat new, and don't kill anywhere near as much as i should be able to........yet.
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1st IMO the pony is creating needless seperation....he should be going vertical and more than likely off the gas...
As for the hurricane...
It appears the hurricane was climbing up into the path of the pony....which to me is a fundemental violation of ACM (as I interpret a still image)....or the pony was late in recognizing a threat....is that a piece of pony in the middle of the "C"?
I'm almost guessing the hurricane had E and was able to climb up for a belly shot and rolled over to reload his E state. The problem with a still image is that there is no right or wrong ACM taken out of the broader context. without that context you can make all kinds of assumptions...
A picture is worth a thousand words....and a 20 second film clip is worth a thousand pictures....