Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: republic on April 26, 2007, 10:30:40 AM
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I've always attributed the 110's poor high aoa and deathly stalls to actual design flaws...but now I ask...is it historically a 110 problem or a mossy like code bug?
It doesn't plummet backwards from the sky like the Mossy but, it does sometimes act as though suddenly there's no air whatsoever passing over it's wings until you can get the nose down. Almost as though you pass through a bubble of vacuum space.
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sounds like u should talk to stephen hawking about that one...... :huh
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This seems to happen much more viciously when heavy. It's like the 110 decides to stop flying all of sudden.
Engines off, hard rudder and nose down was the only way I got out of it (with all of 50ft to spare)
I have had an unrecoverable 'Top Gun' flat spin too. (pity there was no gunner to hit his head on the canopy lol)
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when i get in a stall in 110, i usually cut off the engine, put in 2x flaps, and rudder, takes about 2k to get 100% control back but yea, that's wat i do, hope i helped:aok
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awesome, i've had this happen twice in the last month and didn't know how to recover.
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The death stall is because the 110s dont have counter rotating propellers. I think the mossi also has this problem. Take a look at the 110s engines when they start up then look at the P38s. Trick is don't use alot of rudder when in a turn. If you do flat stall cut engines and drop flaps as fast as you can, then piont nose down and cut them on again. If you do it right you'll only loose 500ft-1k of alt.
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Originally posted by Larry
The death stall is because the 110s dont have counter rotating propellers.
Thanks TK! I've always wondered if there was a real word reason behind the phenomenon.
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Originally posted by republic
Thanks TK! I've always wondered if there was a real word reason behind the phenomenon.
Bull****.
Counter rotating props were no magic. Torque of two props turning same way could be countered with simple design solutions. If you look at blueprints, you may notice for example that 110s engines were not aligned perfectly to same direction as fuselage. They were just slightly to one side. This was to counter the effect of prop turning.
Aircraft designers knew what they were doing.
The stalls are limitation in game code, nothing more.
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Why would you turn the engine off? If the problem is not enough airflow over the wings, doesn't it make sense to leave the engine at max, so that even if you're tumbling wildly, the prop is pulling you through the air at least a little?
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Originally posted by Engine
Why would you turn the engine off?
Because it works.
It seems that the wallow is a result of the non-counter rotating props, which is helped by turning off the engines.
Though, if Grendel is right this shouldn't be a problem.
In anycase, engines off -> rudder -> nose-down -> engines on = recover in our 110 at this point.
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Originally posted by Xasthur
Because it works.
I can confirm this, that's the quickest way to get the 110 back to life. So the question is, is it historical or is it the game?
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In my experience flat spins usually occur at low speeds as you attempt to drop the wing opposite the direction of engine torque. Continuing to do so will cause a flat spin and the only way to counter the torque is to slow the engine.
Rapidly countering to the other side (attempting to drop the opposite wing) at full power near stall speed usually results in a snap-roll with the flat spin recovery being preferable to a snap-roll recovery.
I also found this little tidbit at http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/spins.html
Retarding the throttle is a moderately good idea for a couple of reasons. For one thing (especially if you have a fixed-pitch prop) it keeps the engine from overspeeding during the later stages of the spin recovery. More importantly, gyroscopic precession of the rotating engine and propeller can hold the nose up, flattening the spin and interfering with the recovery (depending on the direction of spin).
Propwash might increase the effectiveness of the horizontal tail and therefore assist in the spin recovery, but (especially in a flat spin) the propwash could be blown somewhere else by the abnormal airflow — so you may not be able to count on this.
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Originally posted by republic
I can confirm this, that's the quickest way to get the 110 back to life. So the question is, is it historical or is it the game?
Game.
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Originally posted by Xasthur
In anycase, engines off -> rudder -> nose-down -> engines on = recover in our 110 at this point.
Just want to say, in real life, you recover from a spin in the EXACT SAME WAY, so if you folks were dropping from the sky because of a simple spin, perhaps you should study basic flight. Just saying...
(That was NOT a flame, im just saying that in real life you recover from spins in much the same way, so I dont really understand why this comes as such a revelation to some of the people flying here.)
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
More importantly, gyroscopic precession of the rotating engine and propeller can hold the nose up, flattening the spin and interfering with the recovery (depending on the direction of spin).
Propwash might increase the effectiveness of the horizontal tail and therefore assist in the spin recovery, but (especially in a flat spin) the propwash could be blown somewhere else by the abnormal airflow — so you may not be able to count on this.
Aha! Thanks, that was informative. Always nice to learn something new.
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Oh, and yes, the Bf-110G-2 DOES just fall backwards out of the air. It happened to me today...
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I disagree.
2 years ago I did extensive stall testing on the 110's.
Engine on, (can throttle back a bit if you like, for me really didn't change things)
2 notch's of flaps, and drop gear. Gear comes out, pulls the nose down, along with a bit of help from rudder, full power, pull out CAREFULLY, as you raise gear.
If you do it quick enough you can recover quickly. If you get stuck in a full flat spin it takes 5 - 6k to get out.
The key is you HAVE to get nose down to recover. And the 110 does NOT like to go nose low in a stall. It wants to be slightly nose up. So cut the throttle by all means if you like. But drop those flaps/gear, get the nose down. In full flat spin often you had to "rock" it out with cycles of power on, power off, in conjunction with stick input.
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Originally posted by republic
It doesn't plummet backwards from the sky like the Mossy but,
Mine do.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Mine do.
Mabey take the ton of playboys outa your hiding space in the tail.:D
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Originally posted by Serenity
(That was NOT a flame, )
u talkn to me?
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Originally posted by Larry
Mabey take the ton of playboys outa your hiding space in the tail.:D
:D
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Originally posted by Xasthur
Because it works.
In anycase, engines off -> rudder -> nose-down -> engines on = recover in our 110 at this point.
Ok, I tested this again today.
1 engine died mid-dogfight on the deck.
Using the technique listed above I recovered with 200 or 300 feet to spare.
So, this can be done within 1000 feet
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Originally posted by republic
I've always attributed the 110's poor high aoa and deathly stalls to actual design flaws...but now I ask...is it historically a 110 problem or a mossy like code bug?
It doesn't plummet backwards from the sky like the Mossy but, it does sometimes act as though suddenly there's no air whatsoever passing over it's wings until you can get the nose down. Almost as though you pass through a bubble of vacuum space.
just out of curiousity..........you don't fly with auto combat trim on, do you? i ask only because virtually the only time i've ever stalled a 110 like you describe was with it on......and it seems as though it actually fights the recovery. i've had the same happen in a p38, and in a hurricane....thus, i never fly with it on anymore.....
just a thought.......
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Originally posted by Serenity
Just want to say, in real life, you recover from a spin in the EXACT SAME WAY, so if you folks were dropping from the sky because of a simple spin, perhaps you should study basic flight. Just saying...
(That was NOT a flame, im just saying that in real life you recover from spins in much the same way, so I dont really understand why this comes as such a revelation to some of the people flying here.)
cessna spin recovery::::throttle idle, aielrons neutral, rudder opposite direction of spin....when spin arrested, slowly raise nose, add power.
i think thats the right procedure(only read bout it, CFI;'s won't practice it with us)