Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Vudak on April 26, 2007, 03:55:38 PM
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Hey all,
So, I have either a very stupid, or very bright friend. I'm going to leave out much of the story as far as motive and such, and just get down to the facts:
She's short on money.
Her friend is in the army and wants to help her out.
They're thinking about getting married (for the check).
They'd each take a "cut" of the marriage proceeds. He gets a little extra, and she's out of her tough spot.
But, of course, they'd continue on with their lives, dating other people, living on different continents etc., etc., as if nothing ever changed.
Now, to ME, this seems like it's way too good to be true. There's just this nagging red alarm going on in my head that says, "Uncle Sam is not gonna like getting conned!!!" You know, it's about $$$, so someone might actually care.
Anyway, she asked me for advice on what to do, and about all I could tell her was to let me ask some friends.
So, friends, what should the advice be?
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I'd suggest to her reading up the consequences of defrauding the government.
They don't like it very much.
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Put another way, "Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."
The plan sounds to me like a good way to jumpstart the Law of Unintended Consequences.
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Bad idea, oh such a bad idea
(http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t92/Airscrew/gd981019.gif)
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Originally posted by oboe
Put another way, "Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."
The plan sounds to me like a good way to jumpstart the Law of Unintended Consequences.
That's what I'm thinking. But you know I'm talking out of my butt when I give her advice, and I know many of the guys on here are military and figured someone would be able to give some better info.
*Hopefully* this is just a pipedream of her's, but ya never know with that one... :rolleyes:
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Usually I hear this from the other side:
Guy getting deployed.
Guy gets married to get extra money.
Guy goes overseas for long tour.
New Wifee spends, spends, spends while New Hubby away. New credit cards in "both" their names all maxed out.
New Hubby comes home to no money, all belongings sold off, loads of debt, and New Wifee moved out to live with new boyfriend. In some cases, Old Wifee still gets alimony and part of Old Hubby's retirement benefits.
I don't see how part of the extra money the troop gets for being married will help out your friend. It's not THAT much (especially when split), unless she plans on "taking care" of his other finances while he is away (see above).
Tell her to sell a kidney.
Don't know if she's smart or not, but HE's dumb to even suggest it. It can hurt him far more than her in several ways as to her debt load and UCMJ.
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she should get a job she's not the only one that's broke. I don't know her or her financial situation but my guess is she brought it on herself, to stoop so low as to con the government out of money is well pathetic. tell her to do it the right way and marry a rich guy then divorce him. just my opinion don't take it the wrong way :aok
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Tell him NOT to do it.
One of my friends in the navy knew of a bunch of guys that did do it, and they are all in VERY BIG trouble now.
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Military retiree here. My advice? Dumb idea, for both of them, and for more reasons than I have time to elucidate on. If she's so short on money, tell here to join the military herself. She gets a paycheck, full medical, a roof over her head, 3 squares aday, and quite a nice educational benefits package. Plus she learns a marketable skill (if she's careful about what job she gets in the service). Otherwise, find some other honest way to solve her problems. Unemployment is at an all time low in this country.
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Here is the bad news for you friend.
She WILL have to get a military dependent ID card. That will get her onto most all military bases so she can use the PX and such. She will have to go in person to get this done. She and he will sign documents as to the Marriage and other documents for life insurance and such.
Once she is considered a dependent, He will be responsible for her actions on any military base (which she will have free access to) . Another thing, it is against the Uniform Code of Military Justice to have sex (or what ever you call it) with another once you are married.
The catch all in the UCMJ, is if it presents a bad or negative image of the United States Armed Forces. He WILL be punished.
He must go to the legal office on at his base and ask what the ramifications are. They cannot tell him no, but they can tell him the law under the UCMJ.
Phaser11, TSgt, USAF ret.
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Originally posted by Speed55
Tell him NOT to do it.
One of my friends in the navy knew of a bunch of guys that did do it, and they are all in VERY BIG trouble now.
Can you elaborate a little here?
Phaser, are you basically saying that all is well for her? Because to tell you the truth, I don't know the guy and don't care haha.
Look, I realize it's a dumb idea, and I have this nagging suspiction that it *probably* has legal consequences of some sort or another, but I have no idea if:
* This nagging suspicion is correct;
* If the legal consequences are for both parties - not just him
* What the legal consequences are
I figure there has to be a federal offense in there somewhere... Taxpayer money and all that. There has to be some sort of legal consequence or every damn 18 year old in the Army would get married for the check.
Then again I could be completely mistaken.
But, any further help in this matter would be greatly appreciated.
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Was doing some searches on google... Found this excerpt:
"A woman sailor, Judy Ann Patterson, looked around for a man she could marry to qualify for the housing subsidy that the military pays for married couples. A friend introduced her to civilian Jason Huff. Two weeks later they got married and Patterson filed for the allowance, claiming that Huff lived in San Francisco. She picked San Francisco because the Bay Area has the highest housing benefits in the military. She also qualified for cost-of-living adjustments and extra benefits because her spouse lived in a different city. All totaled, she got an extra $2,600 per month, which added up to some $41,000 over the 16 months the scam operated.
Why was it a scam? The couple acknowledged that they never intended to live together as husband and wife. The whole point of the union was to obtain military housing benefits. Each month, Patterson sent her "husband" $500 and made a $300 payment on a truck in exchange for his going through the motions of being married.
Naturally, the military took a dim view of this fake marriage. Patterson was sentenced to 30 months in prison, a $4,800 fine, forfeiture of all pay, reduction in rank to seaman recruit, and a bad-conduct discharge. According to Navy Prosecutor Charles Olcutt, "Our military budget would be brought to its knees if every sailor thought they should get an extra $43,000 every year and a half." He said that housing-allowance fraud is a "large and growing crime."
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However, that seems to imply that, in my friend's case, the guy is an absolute idiot and the girl should be fine... Will have to dig some more...
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Vudka,
Tell him to go to the base leagle office. Anything i tell you is not law, they know and will help him.
It is the best for all.
I do know, she cannot be punished under the UCMJ, only military members can be. If she did domething worng, she could loose access to the base. But HE will get hammered.
I have seen this when one of the airmen that worked for me marrige went bad. She did bad stuff on the base to get him in trouble. She was no longer allowed on the base, he got 30 days in CC, lost pay and a stripe.
Send, Drag, boot or get him to the base law office.
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Yo Phaser!
You were stationed at RAF Upper Heyford correct?
If so I found a neat website, let me know.
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Phaser and tedrbr covered most of the bases. This is a bad idea for both her and the soldier. She is considering an act that will be considered a conspiracy to commit fraudulant acts by the Military. If you are considering telling her to go forward with it you are aiding and abetting in the conspiracy. That is one thing for you to think about.
Originally posted by Vudak
I don't know the guy and don't care haha.
Frankly your position in this doesn't show you in a flattering light particularly in your concern for a soldier.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Phaser and tedrbr covered most of the bases. This is a bad idea for both her and the soldier. She is considering an act that will be considered a conspiracy to commit fraudulant acts by the Military. If you are considering telling her to go forward with it you are aiding and abetting in the conspiracy. That is one thing for you to think about.
I'm not considering telling her to go forward with this at all. I've been the only one with the alarm bells going off since day one. I'm just trying to give her the legal/technical reasons not to, and lay off with the moral grounds.
Frankly your position in this doesn't show you in a flattering light particularly in your concern for a soldier.
I apologize for this. Please forgive me and see it as my not particularly caring for this particular soldier on the grounds that I feel he is going to get my good friend in a world of trouble. No offense meant to the service in general.
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It's all been summed up pretty well in this thread Vudak. I do know that Adultry is a HUGE nono in the Army as my wifes ex found out much to his chagrin. Even if they got away with it anybody who bore either one of them a grudge could go to his command and land him in a world of hurt.
I'd say the best advice in this thread so far is to tell her to go to a recruiter and sign up.
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Ok, basically i only know the story from the sailor's side.
The guy and a couple of his friends got married for the sole purpose of monetary gains.
For some reason the navy did an investigation. i think it was happening alot on that particular ship, and people were talking.
I know for a fact that the guys (all sailors), got sent to some kind of military prison, which pretty much has ruined there naval careers.
As far as the women, who would be in the same boat as your friend, i'm not really sure what happened to them. It can't be good though.
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Originally posted by Vudak
I apologize for this. Please forgive me and see it as my not particularly caring for this particular soldier on the grounds that I feel he is going to get my good friend in a world of trouble. No offense meant to the service in general.
If she is found out, there are felony charges that can be brought against her: defrauding the military, and thereby, the Federal Government. Kind of thing that stays with you for life.
The guy in question would be in even bigger trouble, between the two. He risks action under UCMJ as well as many a financial burden from the marriage. If she's in financial trouble, he would be ruining his credit score. She would have access to some of his finances. She could take out credit card applications both would be liable for as a married couple. Depending on the state of residence, the poor fool could end up with alimony payments.
All in all, he gets the worst end of the deal..... assuming he doesn't snap and in a rage takes your friend out completely. Been known to happen.
Its a bad idea all around, but much worse for the soldier. Is your friend aware of how she can take this fool to the cleaners? Many a woman has done this intentionally.
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Originally posted by Shifty
Yo Phaser!
You were stationed at RAF Upper Heyford correct?
If so I found a neat website, let me know.
Yep,
What it is!
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Hi Vudak,
Simply put, its fraudulent and its wrong for more reasons than I can list without writing another book, and I'm too tired to write another book.
Its an attempt to defraud the US Government and ultimately the tax payers (that would be you and me) in time of war. The housing allowances are there to help the legitimately married couples live off base and raise their children, they are generous partly because the military recognizes that the family finances are the last thing a soldier needs to be worrying about in a fire-fight. Additionally, around here the budgets for things like guns and armor and training are already tight, so the idea of paying for fake marriages would make the blood of a lot of commanders boil - and that won't help much when your budy is getting charged.
Additionally, he is entering into a legally binding marriage contract with someone with demonstrably bad financial skills and a penchant for doing questionable things to solve them which could make him eventually liable for alimony and/or child support for many years to come, and believe me "But your honor, we only got married to defraud the government" isn't going to be a solid gold defense in divorce court.
So to sum up:
It's Immoral
It's Illegal
It's not particularly bright
It can ruin his career
It puts him in a VERY vulnerable legal position
They will probably eventually get caught
Heck, its even unpatriotic
Tell the lady in question to sell off anything that she doesn't need, and then to get a job and some credit counseling, alternatively she could try getting married for real to someone with a solid income and a reasonably pleasant demeanor. But wait, I guess that kind of thing is outmoded... :rolleyes:
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It's what we call a "Contract Marriage" and I see them go bad all the time.
in addition to what Seagoon said:
It is against the UCMJ for the Military Member.
I'm not sure of all the debt laws and what not but from her stand point he could rack up a bunch of debt, file bankrupty and it might show up on her credit report or in some states she'd be financially liable for her husbands debt.
In addition it will cost money and time to get a divorce if he or she ever decides to remarry.
Not to mention it is defrauding the taxpayers....that's us BTW of money that they don't deserve.
EDIT:
Hey phaser, where you stationed? AFSC?
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Originally posted by Maverick
Frankly your position in this doesn't show you in a flattering light particularly in your concern for a soldier.
Frankly the fact that the soldier is considering this (defrauding the govenrment, his employer) doesn't reflect well on him.
Just because he is a soldier doesn't mean he gets a free pass on thinking about fraud. I'd say his morals are not to the standards of a soldier...
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Just think of it like this "WWCND?"
What Would Chuck Norris Do?
He'd round house kick her butt outta her Financial problem, force feed her a bit of Responsiblity then Byatch slap yer Army friend for even thinking of disgracing the Military with such a fraudulent thought.
Then kiss the Stars and Stripes because he's an American!
:aok
Mac
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Originally posted by Stringer
Frankly the fact that the soldier is considering this (defrauding the govenrment, his employer) doesn't reflect well on him.
Just because he is a soldier doesn't mean he gets a free pass on thinking about fraud. I'd say his morals are not to the standards of a soldier...
Stringer it's quite common among the younger enlisted.
Not only can they then collect BAH ($1-2K a month extra depending on where you're stationed) but they can move out of the barracks and get an apartment as well.
It sounds quite attractive but what they don't realize is the second they get a power of attourney for their "wife" because they are getting ready to deploy.....she can move all of your "stuff" on the military's dime to where ever she wants and completly disappear. Even then after she robs you blind you are still legally obligated to give her half of your BAH. OTOH she could legally move into base housing without your consent and destroy the place and you are financially obligated to repay the govt all damages.
It really is somthing that looks very attractive to somone young and living in the barracks but it can be a very dark cloud.
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I let them go for it. All the nasty little dirt comes out in the wash. If they're dumb & manipulative enough to do it, let them screw up their lives, get in trouble & pay the consequences.
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Originally posted by AWMac
Just think of it like this "WWCND?"
What Would Chuck Norris Do?
He'd round house kick her butt outta her Financial problem, force feed her a bit of Responsiblity then Byatch slap yer Army friend for even thinking of disgracing the Military with such a fraudulent thought.
Then kiss the Stars and Stripes because he's an American!
:aok
Mac
:rofl I think I'll go with this one lol.
Thanks for the advice though, everyone. I guess the best I can do is present her with the facts and tell her basically either don't do it, or, if you're gonna do it, try to make it a real one.
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I think we have a Winnar with the "WWCND"
You can nevar go wrong with Chuckie... or he'll eventually kick yer arse!
:D
Mac
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Check your PMs Phaser
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It's a shame that the military is allowed to discriminate so much against single people. They do it to encourage marriage because married people are easier to retain.
Most people get married for monetary reasons anyway, that's why the gays want to do it, taxes and such. Who doesn't get married to improve his/her domestic situation? Women typically don't go looking to marry homeless or unemployed men, guess they're looking to defraud somebody. How does one determine if a marriage is a fraud?
The government now is going to dictate what is and isn't the right reason to get married?
I guess if they never fight, keep themselves in shape, and are financially independant of eachother, that would be a tipoff that it's a sham marriage. God what an unholy union that would be!
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Don't know if she's smart or not, but HE's dumb to even suggest it. It can hurt him far more than her in several ways as to her debt load and UCMJ.
Hey look Teddy and I agree on something.
-Sik
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Originally posted by Suave
It's a shame that the military is allowed to discriminate so much against single people. They do it to encourage marriage because married people are easier to retain.
Most people get married for monetary reasons anyway, that's why the gays want to do it, taxes and such. Who doesn't get married to improve his/her domestic situation? Women typically don't go looking to marry homeless or unemployed men, guess they're looking to defraud somebody. How does one determine if a marriage is a fraud?
The government now is going to dictate what is and isn't the right reason to get married?
I guess if they never fight, keep themselves in shape, and are financially independant of eachother, that would be a tipoff that it's a sham marriage. God what an unholy union that would be!
Sorry I didn't know you were Homeless and Gay.
Sad.
Mac
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Oh Dayum, dissed by secret agent man.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Hey phaser, where you stationed? AFSC?
Pope AFP
RAF Upper Heyford
Cannon AFB
from 1978 to 1999
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IS she HOT???
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Originally posted by Suave
It's a shame that the military is allowed to discriminate so much against single people. They do it to encourage marriage because married people are easier to retain.
Most people get married for monetary reasons anyway, that's why the gays want to do it, taxes and such. Who doesn't get married to improve his/her domestic situation? Women typically don't go looking to marry homeless or unemployed men, guess they're looking to defraud somebody. How does one determine if a marriage is a fraud?
The government now is going to dictate what is and isn't the right reason to get married?
I guess if they never fight, keep themselves in shape, and are financially independant of eachother, that would be a tipoff that it's a sham marriage. God what an unholy union that would be!
Please tell me you were drunk or stoned when you wrote that bovine fecal matter.
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Post pictures of her topless.
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He'd be better off just loaning her the money. Either way he's gonna come up short.
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Hope he at least gets to hit. With film. Post the film.