Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: GooseAW on April 28, 2007, 10:03:00 AM
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Just a thought....
What would be the pros and cons in the minds of the opinionated of having a progressive plane set.
ie: the tour starts with only early war rides and progresses thru the tour on some predetermined timeline until, say in the last week, we have all planes available again.
I think the reason this came to my mind was that I think the noobs (and there seem to be a million of em) are hoppin in the the "uber" late war rides early on and finding that these planes give them some crutches to lean on, never try many of the others. Thus never really feeling the need to develop ACM and in my opinion causing them to miss out on a lot of the experience.
I know many will say "it's my 14.95 blah blah" but I say, "it's HTC's $14.95" and I think this might make the game more sustaineable and therefore more enjoyable for all for the longer term.
What do you think?
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Been there, done that.........Don't go there :rolleyes:
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As much as I like flying EW planes in the LW arenas I think it's a bad idea. I like taking on the LW planes in my EW rides.
And what about those who only get to play a few times a month?
I could see mass defections and the whining would reach a whole new level.
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I agree with BaldEagl. When AH used to be progressive like that I often missed the days when it was LW or EW whatever. It was usually a surprise to find out what planes that I could fly when I logged on.
The trend I've found on the forums is that a lot of people want an emphasis more on EW planes, mainly because they are sick of the uber rides. I can understand this and they make suggestions on the forums about this. IMO these people would love to play the EW arena but won't because 20 people in an arena is generally not that fun and they enjoy the large scale furballs.
Honestly, to satisfy the quench for these people we would need a user based probably around 20-30k where enough players could form a 400 person EW arena. Of course there would be probably 5-10k people in dozens of MA's.
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Even Warbirds gave up RPS because of its' unpopularity AND we have EW and MW arenas here.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
As much as I like flying EW planes in the LW arenas I think it's a bad idea. I like taking on the LW planes in my EW rides.
And what about those who only get to play a few times a month?
I could see mass defections and the whining would reach a whole new level.
Amazing, you flew Tempests all last night. Practice what you preach.
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An RPS in the MAs, IMO, would virtually guarantee the success of the horde, while limiting the chances of the underdog to up cheap tempests and jets, or the late war dragsters that are popular for hunting goons and NOE mishunz. I fly only the dweeb rides, and usually (not always) for the underdog side, so I'm kind of biased, mind you.
Forcing everyone out of whatever rides is already accomplished in part by ENY, and look at the shrieking when that happens.
Those 2 things come to mind immediately when I think RPS, and along with being an unpleasant surprise to those who don't fly every night, I just don't think it would add anything to the game.
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I gotta ask, we have an early war, mid war, and two late war arenas, so why would we need or want a rolling plane set?
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As much as I personally would love to see a RPS, the dismayingly low participation numbers for EW, MW, and AvA theaters have sort of proved a point in what people want, and do not want.
As lame and sucky the Lgay7-Spixteen addicted horde mob is, at least the arenas are populated in late-war.
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in my mind this would be instead of the EW and MW arenas...which just aren't used. If there are 30 people in EWA or MWA 20 of em are milkrunning in GV leaving 8 in the air and 2 afk. It's just not working.
Just voicing a thought somewhat from the hip. Guess I'm gettin tired of the LA7, D9, P51, Spixteen set making one pass through a fight then running...er extending 1/2 a sector with no risk of being caught and forced to fight then when they see you engaged again slashing through once again. I typically just fight as the situation presents itself and like the challenge really.
I think it would be more fun for all of us if the noobs, and some ole timers, were exposed to the earlier planesets. I think given some practice/confidence it would be a different community. Perhaps if you had multiple MAs running on a different timeline....of course that could defeat the purpose. Obviously not thoroughly thought through, but then that's why I'm deferring to the smart people...
I know these are age old issues but thought I'd excersize my right to go here anyway. Since the thought has come to me more than once. Thanks for the continued feedback.
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Originally posted by GooseAW
i. Guess I'm gettin tired of the LA7, D9, P51, Spixteen set making one pass through a fight then running...er extending 1/2 a sector with no risk of being caught and forced to fight then when they see you engaged again slashing through once again. I typically just fight as the situation presents itself and like the challenge really.
A rolling planeset wouldn't change much. There is always a fastest plane, and people will use it the way you described.
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Good point,
My counter would be that given the opportunity to fly some different birds, albeit forced, this might change. Optimistic? Yes surely. That is who I am though.
Heck, maybe just closing the LWAs one night, or one weekend a month would do it. This might be easy and worth a try! hmmmm
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Well, typically the EW planes are much lighter in armament, which leads to prolonged engagements. Also the general 'margin' of difference between fighter specs are more rounded out and even in EW planes. It will have some effect in the manner Goose may want, and frankly I sympathize with his intentions.
The problem is, the nature of the non-battling horde stuff is IMO a strat issue, or rather a game design issue. I believe people form hordes and run from fights not just because they are lame, but also because the game makes that kind of behavior rewardable. In other words, a RPS would have some effect in the direction you want AH to move on to, but it will cause more problems than solutions IMO.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Amazing, you flew Tempests all last night. Practice what you preach.
Here's all of the planes and/or vehicles I've flown/driven over the past 3 months with total kills and deaths in each:
A6M2 11
Bf 109F-4 12
Bf 109G-14 5
Bf 109G-2 22
Bf 109K-4 14
Bf 110G-2 26
C-47A 3
C.205 24
Chute 4
F4F-4 23
F4U-1A 10
F4U-1C 35
F4U-1D 35
F4U-4 7
F6F-5 71
FM2 44
Fw 190A-5 34
Fw 190A-8 61
Fw 190D-9 23
Fw 190F-8 18
Hurricane Mk I 30
Hurricane Mk IIC 97
Hurricane Mk IID 8
Ki-61 12
Ki-84-Ia 20
La-5FN 19
La-7 9
Lancaster III 3
LVTA2 1
M-3 18
Me 163B 30
N1K2 19
Ostwind 190
P-38G 35
P-38J 4
P-38L 4
P-47-D11 3
P-47-D25 19
P-47-D40 4
P-51B 18
P-51D 33
Panzer IV H 73
PT Boat 9
SeaFire 18
Sherman VC 2
Ship Gunner 2
Spitfire Mk IX 25
Spitfire Mk V 130
Spitfire Mk VIII 21
Spitfire Mk XIV 9
Spitfire Mk XVI 144
T-34 18
Ta 152H 23
Tempest 46
Tiger I 53
Typhoon IB 39
Know of what you speak.
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If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Originally posted by GooseAW
Good point,
My counter would be that given the opportunity to fly some different birds, albeit forced, this might change. Optimistic? Yes surely. That is who I am though.
Heck, maybe just closing the LWAs one night, or one weekend a month would do it. This might be easy and worth a try! hmmmm
You should search these boards for the hundreds of thread about RPS. HiTech already has said no to the idea as well as the majority of the community.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Fulmar
I agree with BaldEagl. When AH used to be progressive like that I often missed the days when it was LW or EW whatever.
When did AH have a rolling plane set or than what you'd find in the AvA? Or you mistaking AH for WB?
ack-ack
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I remember a much smaller planeset, but not a rolling one.
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I remember one christmas I asked my dad for a car. He said no.
The following Christmas I once again asked him for a car. Christmas morning there was a car in the driveway with my name on the wrapper.
Damn glad I wasn't too scared to ask again!
AKAK, State your own opinion and leave others to theirs bud. Times is a changin. HTC can speak for itself and if you followed the thread, this is hopefully more of a brainstorm than a dictation of the way I think it should be done. Or of the way you think it should be done.
Somebody thought of MWA and EWA for a reason. They tried it and it isn't working in it's current itteration...IMO
Thanks all for the constructive input into the discussion. I don't know the answers, but the questions are becoming clearer to me.
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So, since the early war and mid war arenas don't have enough people to suit you, you'd like to create a forced early and mid war arena so people would have to fly whatever period you'd prefer for a certain amount of time each month, by forcing a rolling plane set. That's a GREAT idea!:rofl Should be easily as popular as various assorted STD's.
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Honestly, I wouldn't mind an arena with a rolling planeset, but not at the expense of the bread and butter MA where everything is available.
And that brings up the issue of whether a rolling planeset ability is worth the time to code.
But, if it looked like:
MA1 (Late War, all enabled)
MA2 (Late War, all enabled)
MA3 (Rolling Planeset)
I wouldn't object at all.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Know of what you speak.
What's the matter with the Spit 1? My statement still stands.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Honestly, I wouldn't mind an arena with a rolling planeset, but not at the expense of the bread and butter MA where everything is available.
And that brings up the issue of whether a rolling planeset ability is worth the time to code.
But, if it looked like:
MA1 (Late War, all enabled)
MA2 (Late War, all enabled)
MA3 (Rolling Planeset)
I wouldn't object at all.
I wouldn't really object to that either. The problem is that your MA3 (rolling plane set) will be no more populated than either the EW or MW arenas are now.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
As much as I personally would love to see a RPS, the dismayingly low participation numbers for EW, MW, and AvA theaters have sort of proved a point in what people want, and do not want.
Sad, but undeniably true.
Fact is, vets and newbs alike want to fly the 1945 plane set. No matter how much people claim that they enjoy the early war planes, there are only a few who will do it for more than a couple of weeks.
Periodically we run an RPS in AvA. The first time we did, it was very well attended. The second time, less so. The third time it was deserted. Just because we're naturally contrary, we'll probably run it again sometime, and I'll post here to let you know.
- oldman
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Thanks all for the constructive input into the discussion. I don't know the answers, but the questions are becoming clearer to me.
Soon.. you will learn to see the Dark side.. as I have....
....
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I wouldn't really object to that either. The problem is that your MA3 (rolling plane set) will be no more populated than either the EW or MW arenas are now.
Agreed, which is why I commented on the fact that it probably isn't worth the coding time.
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Karnak's idea has merit, I for one would try it for a while.
At the end of the tour, though, with all planes enabled, wouldn't it just be a third LW?
Plus, We would also have to address the problem of Balance through multiple arena's...We can't manage it with the ones we have now.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
What's the matter with the Spit 1? My statement still stands.
There's nothing wrong with the Spit I. I just haven't flown it over the past 3 months. Not much different than the Hurri I... same issues with the engine cutting out under negative G's, .303 peashotters, etc.
Yes, I did fly a few Temp missions Friday night. I also flew just as many P-38G and BF109G-2 missions plus a couple of Spit XVI and ME163B missions.
Just because I said I like to fly EW planes (look closely at the list... there are several there) in the LW arenas doesn't mean that's all I like to do and I've never said that's the case.
Whatever, it's not worth arguing about. It seems to me someone's just upset that they got shot down by my Temp .
[Edit] BTW, I wasn't exactly preaching.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
You should search these boards for the hundreds of thread about RPS. HiTech already has said no to the idea as well as the majority of the community.
ack-ack
What he said !
CHECKERS
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Originally posted by Fulmar
The trend I've found on the forums is that a lot of people want an emphasis more on EW planes, mainly because they are sick of the uber rides. I can understand this and they make suggestions on the forums about this. IMO these people would love to play the EW arena but won't because 20 people in an arena is generally not that fun and they enjoy the large scale furballs.
well.... the truth of the matter is quite different, in reality.
most people say 'i like flying EW rides vs LW rides and killing them is so much more fun when im in a crappy plane.'
poppycok!
total rubbish.
most of the people who claim to fly early rides in the vain hope people will virtually 'respect' them for it are infact full of crapola and they fly nothing but P51s at 20k.
its all too easy to pretend, here on the forums, that you love to fly a p40b vs la7s, but hardly anyone really does. the only people who really do fly the weaker aircraft the whole time, are also the ones who dont feel the need to advertise the fact.
"I like to fly the la7 or 190 Dora because they are really good planes and give me a huge advantage over the horde of uber rides im fighting. But when i come to the forum i like to say i fly p40b and hurricane mk1, because then everyone thinks im a real man."
would be a more honest statement.
;)
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So your willing to have everyone wait say 20 days through the tour for the P51 to come out. And for 3 days EVERYONE is in a P51, then the 190 comes out and EVERYONE is flying a 190, or cursing them.
No, no, no, thank god HTC said NO to RPS.
Never has so much whining been done by so many over so simple a concept.
Endless arguments over deployment dates, endless whines over which plane should be enabled 3 days sooner.
Thank GOD that HT left all that long ago and far behind in brand W.
You fly what you want to fly all 30 days of the tour and so does everyone else.
You start telling people what they can fly and when and this place will start looking like a ghost town, kinda like Brand W is now.
This is Aces High, you want to fly the Nik nonstop and HO everyone you see you have the right to do so. And we'll call you a HO'er and a nik dweeb and everyone is happy.
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well.... the truth of the matter is quite different, in reality.
Batfink is totally right. Look behind how those self proclaimed "I love to kill Lgays with inferior EW rides" types, and you will find that they either;
a) fly EW planes perhaps one sortie out of every one hundredth
or
b) fly in classic alt/pick situations.. local air superiority, lots of targets to cherry pick, lot of friendlies to use as bait, and lots of squaddies to haul your prettythang out when things go bad.
Ever seen one of them "I own Lgays with sucky planez" types actually try a field defense against more numerous numbers of enemy Spits, Nikis, and Lgays? I know I haven't.
On the other hand, since I almost always fly at the worst places to be, I get to meet a lot of the horde/vulch squads - the kind of guys who you always meet in hordes. When they pulverize your defenses with their overwhelming numbers, it is only after then, that you get to see some smartaZZ pilots start bringing in their Hurri1s, or C.202s, or whatever sucky plane they like to haul perks with.
Basically, it's all bogus.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Ever seen one of them "I own Lgays with sucky planez" types actually try a field defense against more numerous numbers of enemy Spits, Nikis, and Lgays? I know I haven't.
I can think of three occasions that I've done exactry that. Once in an A6M2, once in a F4F-4 and once in a Hurri I although I don't consider any of them to be "sucky" planes. I won't count the endless hour's I've spent doing this in Spit V's (remember the night I was trying to get you in your Spit IX among your hoard of friends BatfinkV?... that was fun.) and Hurri IIC's even though both are EW planes.
All three times went like this... kill and a death... kill and a death... kill and a death... so I wouldn't go so far as to say I was "owning" anyone but I was having fun.
I'm not sure why this would be so hard to believe. I'm guessing the A6M2 is not so different from the A6M5 although I've only flown the A6M5 once and it was so long ago I really don't remember it. The only major difference in the Hurri I and the Hurri IIC is that the engine cuts under negative G's in the Hurri I but it does re-start on it's own as long as you don't totally starve it for fuel. Other than that the 8 .303's are a reasonably capable gun package and hadling is the same. The F4F-4 with 75% fuel is just a slightly lower powered FM-2 without WEP but 2 extra .50's to compensate. Oh, and I lied, the Spit V and the Hurri IIC are among my absolute favorite planes in the game and I spend a LOT of time in both (most of last night furballing in a Hurri IIC).
As above, I'm not saying that's all I ever do (fly EW planes). I like my share of LW monsters too but I also like to challenge myself once in a while. It's fun. It's analagous to jumping into a fight where you are outnumbered (and I'm not saying that's all I ever do either) regardless what your in. It's a challenge and it's fun.
I know I'm not the only one either and I'm not saying this to earn your "virtual respect". I could care less as I don't even know you. I was (originally) simply stating my reasons for not wanting a rolling plane set.
[EDIT] Oh, and if you look at my planes flown list earlier in this thread I've flown EW rides 21% of the time over the past 3 months. Hardly 1 in a hundred. And that's only counting planes I'm absolutely certain are EW... the actual # may be higher.
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I generally hang out in EW or MW; the 25% of the people that go there to fight in airplanes usually make for some decent engagements and there's rarely enough of those kind of people to constitute a horde.
I don't think those two arenas should be closed and a RP arena substituted.
My suggestions for EW or MW would be to up the ack strength/accuracy to the maxiumum available.
It might cut down on the milkrunning of bases that seems to be the goal of ~75% of the people in EW/MW.
There's never really any "war" going on in either arena. They are both just a perk/rank farm for the dairymen.
Seems to me it might be a tiny, tiny step in restoring integrity for those that care about score and it might make people actually earn perks.
Flame away.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
(remember the night I was trying to get you in your Spit IX among your hoard of friends BatfinkV?... that was fun.)
i dont think anyone was targeting you, sir.
i do remember, although i dont think they were my horde of friends, more general countrymen around me, yes it was fun.
but then i have no problem admitting that i can be a huge dweeb. I enjoy flying the best planes, i enjoy BnZ over a lower horde of enemy, i enjoy la7s, spits, p51s......i love to vulch in the right situations, i have driven tanks onto enemy airfields and camped the VH, i have HO'ed i have rammed i have done everything.
main point being that i dont claim to be anything other than a low down rotten dweeb.
:D
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
"I like to fly the la7 or 190 Dora because they are really good planes and give me a huge advantage over the horde of uber rides im fighting. But when i come to the forum i like to say i fly p40b and hurricane mk1, because then everyone thinks im a real man."
would be a more honest statement.
I can agree with is.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
i dont think anyone was targeting you, sir.
Maybe I took it out of context but your statement was very close to the one I made in my original post.
i do remember, although i dont think they were my horde of friends, more general countrymen around me, yes it was fun.
I didn't mean to imply they were all flying with you or you with them but I did find myself in a bit of a mess out there :)
but then i have no problem admitting that i can be a huge dweeb. I enjoy flying the best planes, i enjoy BnZ over a lower horde of enemy, i enjoy la7s, spits, p51s......i love to vulch in the right situations, i have driven tanks onto enemy airfields and camped the VH, i have HO'ed i have rammed i have done everything.
main point being that i dont claim to be anything other than a low down rotten dweeb.
As long as we're being honest I've done all of those things too and more...
I've camped the spawn on an enemy runway shooting pilots in the head with my .45 cal before they got a chance to take off, I've camped inside the spawn hanger at an enemy VB, I've vulched people off the re-arm pad (Karaya with my Temp... sorry bud) and while trying to land, I drive Ostis onto enemy fields and camp the runways, I'll take the HO almost anytime I've got cannons on board, I rammed a 262 one night with a NIK, got the kill and landed and just last night I cherry-picked a Typhoon in a Hurri IIC (I think he was surprised to see me running him down... lol). Face it, we're all Dweebs sometimes.
[EDIT] To add to the earlier post I run into about 1 P-40 per week either playing base defence or furballing (I've never flown one). I give those guys some respect because the guys who fly the really seem to know how to fly them.
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How about just dropping the second LWA and limiting the first one to something like 400 people. First come first serve. During most of the peek time (probably about 5 hours total out of the day) the first LWA is crammed and the second has about a third of the players and they are all waiting to get into the other arena anyway. Its like purgatory. Why not have them wait in the EWA or the MWA, and have the second LWA open only on weekends and it is super busy.
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Originally posted by kotrenin
How about just dropping the second LWA and limiting the first one to something like 400 people. First come first serve. During most of the peek time (probably about 5 hours total out of the day) the first LWA is crammed and the second has about a third of the players and they are all waiting to get into the other arena anyway. Its like purgatory. Why not have them wait in the EWA or the MWA, and have the second LWA open only on weekends and it is super busy.
That's just forcing people to play in your sandbox. They've tried it, most of them, and the ugly truth is, they don't like it.
- oldman
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I like taking on the LW planes in my EW rides.
You're my kinda guy! I love taking out a spit1 getting on someones six; they don't worry about me (they are thinking :huh! a spit1 HA!) until they get shot down.
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Originally posted by Oldman731
That's just forcing people to play in your sandbox. They've tried it, most of them, and the ugly truth is, they don't like it.
- oldman
I bet most of these people wouldn't even care. Alot of them probably wouldn't mind playing in the EWA or MWA if the numbers were higher. They look at the 22 people already in there and don't want to be number 23 knowing only 1 other person will join during the next hour. Sometimes people need a little push to get them moving in the right direction. It is like this, your kid won't eat his veggies even though they are right in front them, so you take away their desert and watch 'em. They eat those veggies up every time. sometimes there's some crying involved but they'll get over it, often they realize the veggies taste pretty good. And when you put that fat piece of cake back in front of them they won't even remember what they were upset about ( in other words leave the max player set for the LWA at reasonable level.)
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Originally posted by kotrenin
I bet most of these people wouldn't even care. Alot of them probably wouldn't mind playing in the EWA or MWA if the numbers were higher.
After the arenas were split, EWA had all the numbers. If it was all about numbers alone, I guess it would be still this way. But people migrated to LW arenas... seems like they do care....
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They are looking for numbers. That's why i'm in the LWA. I pay 14.95 a month to fly and fight. I like hordes, I admitt that I suck 00's without my horde. Most people like hordes, that's what makes them hordes, lots of people together in a big group. If the LWA is still a reasonable size that it isn't too difficult to get in with maybe the exception to the peek times on the weekend, I think people wouldn't mind flying in the other arenas.
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Originally posted by kotrenin
They are looking for numbers. That's why i'm in the LWA. I pay 14.95 a month to fly and fight. I like hordes, I admitt that I suck 00's without my horde. Most people like hordes, that's what makes them hordes, lots of people together in a big group. If the LWA is still a reasonable size that it isn't too difficult to get in with maybe the exception to the peek times on the weekend, I think people wouldn't mind flying in the other arenas.
But the EW arena HAD the numbers.. and people left it.
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Originally posted by Lusche
After the arenas were split, EWA had all the numbers.
The EWA never really had all the numbers. The max player set in the LWA was set lower and forced people into the EWA. But few complained. Alot of squads went LWA and drew people away from the other arenas because they wanted numbers. Whan HTC created second LWA and raised player set limit it created a vacum.
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Originally posted by kotrenin
The EWA never really had all the numbers. .
Almost looks like you weren't there. Trust me, after the split almost nobody was in MW & LW. All people did log into EW first beacause of a) novelty value, b) everybody was there and c) because it was just the first arena on the list. Only about after a week or even more, the numbers gradually diminished. If people only cared about the numbers, they would have stayed. Apparently they had resons beyond pure numbers to leave EW...
Not that this makes your statement completely non-valid at all. Certainly many people will just follow the crowd.
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Originally posted by Lusche
Almost looks like you weren't there.
Actualy, I did miss the first week, I was on vacation. But I consider the "begining" the first tour, and I know when squads were deciding which arena to base themselves in they chose LW to give their members a larger choice of rides. That's what the CO of my squad did. Yes, I understand people made the conscious decision to fly in the LW after trying the EW & MW, Thats fine. But I think HTC needs to even out the arenas a little. Losing the second LW and putting a larger CAP on on the first would bring the numbers up in all the arenas actualy making it easier to find a horde. And their would still be the dueling arena, AvA, and the corners of the large maps for the gunslingers looking for 1 on 1's. The multiple arenas would still help prevent server overload.
Here's a clip from the HTC archives mentioning the small caps.
"September 13, 2006
Aces High II: Arena Format Change Thanks to your patronage Aces High has grown to the point where a single Main Arena is no longer a sufficient solution...
Being in this business a long time, we understand that people are creatures of habit and old habits die-hard. Going through any major change is uncomfortable until people become acclimated to the change. This change is especially difficult because we cannot simply add these new arenas; we need to redistribute how the arenas are populated. To accomplish that, we’re going to be reducing arena caps so as to not have one arena dominate just by virtue of everybody following the herd. We’ll also be using small terrains exclusively for now, but that is not a permanent change. Once we’re comfortable that people have acclimated to the new format, we’ll begin to work those elements back in."
I think we should go back to this.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
So, since the early war and mid war arenas don't have enough people to suit you, you'd like to create a forced early and mid war arena so people would have to fly whatever period you'd prefer for a certain amount of time each month, by forcing a rolling plane set. That's a GREAT idea!:rofl Should be easily as popular as various assorted STD's.
There have been other less extreme options/ideas posted as well...none by you however. I prefer not to try to make this a s*&t slinging contest however.
As I see it, there are basically 3 unused arenas and 2 overpopulated with LA7s etc.... You can't deny there is room for improvement. Now are interested enough in put a little thought into how that might be accomplished?
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Originally posted by GooseAW
Now are interested enough in put a little thought into how that might be accomplished?
The problem is that you are trying to push an idea that has been 1) rejected by the majority of the community and 2) rejected by HiTech. A RPS plane set is just not going to happen, no matter how long you how blue you become in the face.
ack-ack
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That horse is DEAD, leave it alone.
Although I am somewhat puzzled by the initial post. You seem to indicate Newbies in ENY 5 aircraft is a BAD thing?